BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
Whatever the wishes/views of the UK public and its government, the shade of Brexit will depend on whether the EU's remaining members can agree a common position, which will be determined primary by political (not economic) considerations. Given the degree of differing views within this heterogeneous group, and the desire of some Europeans to punish the UK for its insolent decision to leave the EU, the UK government and companies that do business with the EU27 should be assuming that the default position is a Hard Brexit.
Mr. Viewcode, only one of those 28 had a referendum. It's hardly a fair comparison.
A referendum on leaving, and they're treating us as if we are leaving.
Shocking isn't it. We say we are leaving, and now they are not interested in our views anymore. Who would have thought?
@viewcode is right. When the EU 27 have decided what the deal is, they will let us know. We can then decide to take it or leave it.
Indeed, surely they would only be interested in why the UK voted to leave if they believed there was any chance/risk of others voting the same way. It suggests they are very confident of the EU's popularity in all the other 27 countries.
The video clip of "Theresa No Mates" was resonant because it showed the rather bleak reality of Brexit.
She is so devoid of people skills that I wonder how she got so far in politics. Between her and the three Brexiteers we have a hopless negotiating team. A poor position being led by a poor leader.
Theresa May has the same anti-charisma as Gordon Brown. She is a snappier dresser, but she's several deciles less intelligent.
Mr. Walker, the anti-democratic means of electing a government with a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum, a Commons vote passing the referendum and the electorate then voting in that referendum to leave the EU?
I'm not sure that's anti-democratic.
That's because you get your constitutional law from the Daily Mail. Hence your complaints about Remoaners frustrating the will of the people. Such dreck.
Whatever the wishes/views of the UK public and its government, the shade of Brexit will depend on whether the EU's remaining members can agree a common position, which will be determined primary by political (not economic) considerations. Given the degree of differing views within this heterogeneous group, and the desire of some Europeans to punish the UK for its insolent decision to leave the EU, the UK government and companies that do business with the EU27 should be assuming that the default position is a Hard Brexit.
Mr. Viewcode, only one of those 28 had a referendum. It's hardly a fair comparison.
A referendum on leaving, and they're treating us as if we are leaving.
Shocking isn't it. We say we are leaving, and now they are not interested in our views anymore. Who would have thought?
@viewcode is right. When the EU 27 have decided what the deal is, they will let us know. We can then decide to take it or leave it.
Indeed, surely they would only be interested in why the UK voted to leave if they believed there was any chance/risk of others voting the same way. It suggests they are very confident of the EU's popularity in all the other 27 countries.
The video clip of "Theresa No Mates" was resonant because it showed the rather bleak reality of Brexit.
She is so devoid of people skills that I wonder how she got so far in politics. Between her and the three Brexiteers we have a hopless negotiating team. A poor position being led by a poor leader.
It's rather interesting that the only 'good' leaders at the moment seem to be those of separatist parties. Perhaps the good leaders of a separate UK have been put off politics by the (until now) unquestioned given-ness of the UK being in the EU.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
Whatever the wishes/views of the UK public and its government, the shade of Brexit will depend on whether the EU's remaining members can agree a common position, which will be determined primary by political (not economic) considerations. Given the degree of differing views within this heterogeneous group, and the desire of some Europeans to punish the UK for its insolent decision to leave the EU, the UK government and companies that do business with the EU27 should be assuming that the default position is a Hard Brexit.
Mr. Viewcode, only one of those 28 had a referendum. It's hardly a fair comparison.
A referendum on leaving, and they're treating us as if we are leaving.
Shocking isn't it. We say we are leaving, and now they are not interested in our views anymore. Who would have thought?
@viewcode is right. When the EU 27 have decided what the deal is, they will let us know. We can then decide to take it or leave it.
Indeed, surely they would only be interested in why the UK voted to leave if they believed there was any chance/risk of others voting the same way. It suggests they are very confident of the EU's popularity in all the other 27 countries.
The video clip of "Theresa No Mates" was resonant because it showed the rather bleak reality of Brexit.
She is so devoid of people skills that I wonder how she got so far in politics. Between her and the three Brexiteers we have a hopless negotiating team. A poor position being led by a poor leader.
It's rather interesting that the only 'good' leaders at the moment seem to be those of separatist parties. Perhaps the good leaders of a separate UK have been put off politics by the (until now) unquestioned given-ness of the UK being in the EU.
That must be it, yes. So dreary and complete was the EU's hold over civil life!
Is there anything that isn't the fault of the EU? Southern Trains, herpes, the annoying moment when you try to buy alcohol from a self serve machine and it requests an ID check...
"Mr. Walker, the anti-democratic means of electing a government with a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum, a Commons vote passing the referendum and the electorate then voting in that referendum to leave the EU? I'm not sure that's anti-democratic."
The bill passed to authorise the referendum stated that the referendum was merely advisory, and that Parliament would make the final decision with note taken of the result. Therefore, Parliament is well within its rights to overrule the referendum result.
However, MPs who vote against triggering A50 risk defeat at the next GE if their constituents take exception in sufficiently large numbers at the next GE. This is primarily a risk for Labour MPs in impoverished Leave-leaning constituencies in South Wales and the North of England. Members of the HoL don't need to worry about this risk and can vote according to what they believe is in the best interests of the UK.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
We should leave but immediately apply to rejoin?
Yes.
No obligation to have a referendum either, as the LDs would have an electoral mandate ;-)
I don't think this poll tells us much, it is a close split 41% for soft Brexit and 35% hard Brexit and 8% unsure. The split is also almost entirely on referendum voting lines, so 60% of Leave voters back hard Brexit and 70% of Remain voters soft Brexit so whichever form of Brexit is chosen the other group will be annoyed and UKIP or the LDs will seek to capitalise. As I have said before May will do neither soft nor hard Brexit in my view but try a combination of both ie some control of immigration through a job offer requirement but with limited budget contributions continuing to the EU for limited single market access.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
We should leave but immediately apply to rejoin?
Yes.
No obligation to have a referendum either, as the LDs would have an electoral mandate ;-)
And they'd have an excuse for signing us up to the Euro so what's not to like?
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
No, no: it isn't the 'fault' of the EU; the EU is working perfectly well (or if it isn't that's beside the point).
It's just that for 40-odd years, the EU has been part of life in UK politics. Naturally anyone who isn't EU-inclined isn't going to bother with a career in that direction; they'll do something with more job satisfaction for them.
For many of our politicians, the EU has been the go-to place after their home career is over: a sort of retirement job (without any denigratory overtones the phrase might imply). Just another part of the career ladder.
If that part doesn't attract you either, again, you'd start off in some career direction other than politics.
So what we now have is a generation of people who've mainly gone into politics accepting the EU's position in UK affairs; in other words, looking for leadership towards ex-UK sources. Why would people like that be leaders themselves? People with strong leadership urges wouldn't bother in the first place.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
We should leave but immediately apply to rejoin?
Yes.
No obligation to have a referendum either, as the LDs would have an electoral mandate ;-)
And they'd have an excuse for signing us up to the Euro so what's not to like?
Schengen too...
Great come back for 10 man Leicester! some fight again at last.
Big g George Osborne he tried to advice Cameron against his hubris on an unnecessary referendum.The conservative party to its credit already had a good deal with the EU conducted by Thatcher and Major not in the single currency or shengen to name but two.They were already semi detached they did not to need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
Theresa May is certainly the only viable option. That is our tragedy, because the task looks to be beyond her.
As for being positive, we Remainers have a moral duty to criticise the Government given the utter lack of Opposition.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
The campaign to leave would have continued, but we wouldn't be trying to overturn the referendum decision. Remain is now rejoin, if remain campaigners want to campaign to rejoin the EU that is up to them, campaigning to overturn a democratic vote is disgusting. I guess the issue is that the smartest remainers know that rejoining will be supported by less than 20% of the public and our future in the EU is dead once we've served A50 and there will br no going back so frustrating that process and trying to overturn the referendum result is the only way we could ever stay in the EU now, regardless of how undemocratic the means. The EU has become an article of faith for some of your lot as much as leaving was for so many of mine before the referendum. You decry leavers as swivel eyed but you are no different by campaigning to overturn the result.
So hypothetically if Theresa May called an election next year and by some amazing occurrence it resulted in a lib dem majority... What should happen?
We should leave but immediately apply to rejoin?
Some things are outside the realms of possibility.
I don't think this poll tells us much, it is a close split 41% for soft Brexit and 35% hard Brexit and 8% unsure. The split is also almost entirely on referendum voting lines, so 60% of Leave voters back hard Brexit and 70% of Remain voters soft Brexit so whichever form of Brexit is chosen the other group will be annoyed and UKIP or the LDs will seek to capitalise. As I have said before May will do neither soft nor hard Brexit in my view but try a combination of both ie some control of immigration through a job offer requirement but with limited budget contributions continuing to the EU for limited single market access.
That seems probable. In the short to medium term, Brexit will be neither an outstanding success nor an awful failure.
Big g George Osborne he tried to advice Cameron against his hubris on an unnecessary referendum.The conservative party to its credit already had a good deal with the EU conducted by Thatcher and Major not in the single currency or shengen to name but two.They were already semi detached they did not to need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Cameron held the referendum to satisfy his party and did not expect to lose it.
The people spoke, Cameron resigned, and now we must get the best deal for the UK out of the EU. My only point about those who voted remain and lost is tgat a morecpositive response to leaving would help the process, as there is no evidence to suggest that we could just change our mind and stop the process, it would be politically impossible
is this really the way they intend to behave towards the UK. If so, the sooner we're out the better.
Of course it's the way they intend to behave, for pity's sake! Why would you think they would act differently? I've been saying this for years, including before the vote. The LEAVEr delusion that the UK could dictate its own terms and cherrypick what it wanted was simply that: a delusion. Even the article above is based on the assumption that we can decide on the deal, whether in detail or timescale. I have a horrible feeling that one of my best lines on this board ("when they've worked out what the deal is, they'll tell us") will turn out to be the plain unvarnished truth.
Sadly we've never really moved on from "fog in channel. continent cut off".
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
I could happily move to any of the top ten, though I might have trouble to persuade Mrs J to move to Orkney!
Orkney seems an odd place to be second; as are the Orkneys at 18th.
It states in this report that average weekly earnings in the UK are £646, or over £32,000 per year
That seems implausibly high and the ONS offers the figure of £475 excluding bonuses. Is that a mistake or am I misreading the article?
If you are misreading the article, then both of us are!
This is a criticism I have the BBC News online; they often quite research and reports and do not link to them. It looks as if it is the Halifax Quality of Life Survey, but I'm having trouble finding it.
I cannot explain the discrepancy. But then why should I, when I live in such a glorious place to live. Rejoice!
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
Theresa May is certainly the only viable option. That is our tragedy, because the task looks to be beyond her.
As for being positive, we Remainers have a moral duty to criticise the Government given the utter lack of Opposition.
I do accept that remainers should be able to criticise the Government but it should be constructive not destructive, as nothing is gained by constantly trying to reverse the process
As so often I agree with the handsome and erudite Mr Meeks. Brexit won. Brexit is now our paradigm. The debate has now moved on and that debate is testing Brexit to destruction. We need to discover what Brexit actually means, whether it's what Brexit advocates said it would be. Or indeed what Brexit opponents said it would be. We can't rerun the 23rd of June because neither the UK nor the EU of 23rd of June exists anymore.
That's not to say we shouldn't fight Brexit. We must exhaust every democratic and non violent means of doing fighting Brexit. But we must do it by accepting Brexit as the new paradigm. I think a second referendum is for the birds.
Directly on topic: I can't take a poll with such ludicrously loaded questions seriously. And despite the ludicrous loading 35% still back ' Hard Brexit ' ! God help us all.
On Topic. The 1st thing we need to do is remind ourselves that before The Referendum only 5% thought that Europe was important, the vote itself made the issue central & split us down the middle. Referenda are always a bad idea (unless you have a Civil War to settle) but votes about issues most people dont much care about are worse, voters are tempted to answer some other question such as " do you like Cameron ?"
Many hard Brexiteers genuinely think that the EU is on its last legs and will collapse before the two year period is up.
Many of the same hard Brexiteers who previously argued it was about to become a superstate...
Like those people who said the single currency was doomed because of a lack of labour mobility and now think the EU is doomed because of free movement.
I ascribe to both those positions.
The only way to resolve it is to create a single federal state with massive fiscal transfers and free movement of people.
Good luck to them but I don't want the UK to be part of it.
I believe the rest of the EU will have a much greater chance of succeeding once the UK has left. We just don't seem to be the right sort of 'fit' and would always have been a spanner in the works.
How long it will take for the peoples of Europe to feel like a single body is outside my guessing, but once the fact of a single state has been accomplished, no doubt they'll settle down to it eventually.
I agree and think it's quite a sad indictment of this country that the rest of Europe will in fact be better off without the UK and our perpetual whingeing. It's what the Brexiters want and now they have got it but their chances of uniting the country behind it are zero.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
I ask again. What precisely would you have me do to "take a more positive way forward"? I'd really really like to know please.
Interesting polling. The issue with it is that the "economy getting significantly worse" is a Remainer concept, not a Leaver one. According to polling, most Leavers don't see any risks or downsides to Brexit.
It raises the question, which you pose, of what happens if (when) the messiness becomes all too apparent. Probably a mixture of two things: (1) Perceptions are at fault. Stop remoaning. (2) It's all the fault of the EU, liberal elites etc. These excuses are already being made. What most Leavers will never accept is that the messiness is the direct consequence of the decision to leave the EU.
More interesting is what will happen when those that don't subscribe to that simplistic world view attempt to deal with the messiness or preempt it. We're seeing some of the issues in reactions to Philip Hammonds attempts at getting a transition deal.
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
Many hard Brexiteers genuinely think that the EU is on its last legs and will collapse before the two year period is up.
Many of the same hard Brexiteers who previously argued it was about to become a superstate...
Like those people who said the single currency was doomed because of a lack of labour mobility and now think the EU is doomed because of free movement.
I ascribe to both those positions.
The only way to resolve it is to create a single federal state with massive fiscal transfers and free movement of people.
Good luck to them but I don't want the UK to be part of it.
I believe the rest of the EU will have a much greater chance of succeeding once the UK has left. We just don't seem to be the right sort of 'fit' and would always have been a spanner in the works.
How long it will take for the peoples of Europe to feel like a single body is outside my guessing, but once the fact of a single state has been accomplished, no doubt they'll settle down to it eventually.
I agree and think it's quite a sad indictment of this country that the rest of Europe will in fact be better off without the UK and our perpetual whingeing. It's what the Brexiters want and now they have got it but their chances of uniting the country behind it are zero.
I don't consider it an indictment at all, or a good thing either. It just is so; one of those inconvenient facts. Value-neutral, so to speak.
As so often I agree with the handsome and erudite Mr Meeks. Brexit won. Brexit is now our paradigm. The debate has now moved on and that debate is testing Brexit to destruction. We need to discover what Brexit actually means, whether it's what Brexit advocates said it would be. Or indeed what Brexit opponents said it would be. We can't rerun the 23rd of June because neither the UK nor the EU of 23rd of June exists anymore.
That's not to say we shouldn't fight Brexit. We must exhaust every democratic and non violent means of doing fighting Brexit. But we must do it by accepting Brexit as the new paradigm. I think a second referendum is for the birds.
I do not like the idea of a second referendum because it smells like an attempt to overturn the first. And we must surely have figured out by now that referendums are pretty obnoxious instruments and should really be a last resort.
Having said that, any second referendum would have the benefit of people actually having clarity on whatever choice is to be made.
The first has left a gaping hole in our constitution. How to democratically validate whatever course the government is able to negotiate, and to do so before such a course is irrevocable?
I think isam's idea - of 50 of a 650 seat parliament- being awarded proportionally has a lot of merit. It would only marginally increase the likelihood of a hung parliament, and it avoids truly egregious situations, where a party might get 10% of the popular vote, and no representation at all.
It is a shame Theresa May did not have the same experience as John Reid in the Blair administration .As this might have given her a differing perspective .
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
I'm not talking about Brexit, I'm talking about everything else.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
I ask again. What precisely would you have me do to "take a more positive way forward"? I'd really really like to know please.
As a remain voter I accepted the vote and now want the process to commence. I accept I have always been a eurosceptic and that my decision to remain was marginal, probably like the PM. However the vote has taken place and I believe remainers should accept the vote and contribute to suggesting the way forward but stop trying to subvert the vote
@Big_G_NorthWales Cobblers as usual. The High Court granted a leap frog order. The Supreme Court cleared diaries to get a hearing date that would fit with the government's timetable of A50 invocation " early next year ". Only after this did May then say " by the end of March. " at Tory conference. The Courts have worked quickly t meet the government's timetable. The Court hearings have delayed nothing.
And of course the court hearings could have been circumvented at any point by just using an Act anyway then defending the point of law on Prerogative later. Or god forbid the Referendum Act could have had a few extra clauses making it binding.
It's the usual Leaver bed wetting. Their is no conspiracy. The Government has chosen delay f it's own volition because it's bloody complicated and there was no plan. You won. Act like winners. Get on with it.
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
I'm not talking about Brexit, I'm talking about everything else.
But Brexit is dominating everything else at present
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
I'm not talking about Brexit, I'm talking about everything else.
But Brexit is dominating everything else at present
Precisely. Result: a zombie government, lurching toward the next election, whenever it might be.
Thank goodness variously snubbing and insulting our European neighbours is more important than education, health, or the economy!
@Big_G_NorthWales Cobblers as usual. The High Court granted a leap frog order. The Supreme Court cleared diaries to get a hearing date that would fit with the government's timetable of A50 invocation " early next year ". Only after this did May then say " by the end of March. " at Tory conference. The Courts have worked quickly t meet the government's timetable. The Court hearings have delayed nothing.
And of course the court hearings could have been circumvented at any point by just using an Act anyway then defending the point of law on Prerogative later. Or god forbid the Referendum Act could have had a few extra clauses making it binding.
It's the usual Leaver bed wetting. Their is no conspiracy. The Government has chosen delay f it's own volition because it's bloody complicated and there was no plan. You won. Act like winners. Get on with it.
I voted remain.
Theresa May is inhibited by the Supreme Court but I would accept that she is using the delay to give her time to plan the process.
I would be amazed if in late January we are still in a vacuum
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
I'm not talking about Brexit, I'm talking about everything else.
But Brexit is dominating everything else at present
Precisely. Result: a zombie government, lurching toward the next election, whenever it might be.
Thank goodness variously snubbing and insulting our European neighbours is more important than education, health, or the economy!
@Big_G_NorthWales Cobblers as usual. The High Court granted a leap frog order. The Supreme Court cleared diaries to get a hearing date that would fit with the government's timetable of A50 invocation " early next year ". Only after this did May then say " by the end of March. " at Tory conference. The Courts have worked quickly t meet the government's timetable. The Court hearings have delayed nothing.
And of course the court hearings could have been circumvented at any point by just using an Act anyway then defending the point of law on Prerogative later. Or god forbid the Referendum Act could have had a few extra clauses making it binding.
It's the usual Leaver bed wetting. Their is no conspiracy. The Government has chosen delay f it's own volition because it's bloody complicated and there was no plan. You won. Act like winners. Get on with it.
I voted remain.
Theresa May is inhibited by the Supreme Court but I would accept that she is using the delay to give her time to plan the process.
I would be amazed if in late January we are still in a vacuum
Indeed. The reason for the delay was the complete lack of preparation for the vote, followed by the change of leadership - both of which lie firmly at the door of the previous PM rather than the current incumbent.
As you say, the supreme court verdict early in the new year should be what starts the ball rolling.
BigG why should those who believe in remain shut up.I am dam sure that if the leavers had lost they would not have given up.That is democratic They would have fought on just like the SNP will do as attitudes and opinions change over time.Just because you are a fully paid up member of whatever the current leader of the conservative party espoused at anytime.You followed every word Cameron said now you follow with the same zeal the current robotic one dimensional PM
You do not address the main points of my comments by taking a 'pop' at me for accepting the democratic vote and wanting to get on with the process.
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
I ask again. What precisely would you have me do to "take a more positive way forward"? I'd really really like to know please.
As a remain voter I accepted the vote and now want the process to commence. I accept I have always been a eurosceptic and that my decision to remain was marginal, probably like the PM. However the vote has taken place and I believe remainers should accept the vote and contribute to suggesting the way forward but stop trying to subvert the vote
So that's it. Suggest the way forward? Where and how should I do that? Do I need to join a political party? Or will a couple of tweets do?
Admit it - it's all just meaningless noise. You simply want anyone who thinks we've made a dreadful mistake that will only make things worse to either have a Pauline conversion on the road to Clacton or just shut up and bugger off.
GW May is a more pleasant personality than Brown and closer to the instincts of the British electorate, she is more Major than Brown. Unlike Brown she has no Cameron to face, instead her opponent at her first election will be Corbyn who is even worse than Kinnock. Major lost when he faced Blair but there is no Blair even on the horizon for Labour at the moment
I don't disagree. She will go on and on, unless felled by a lunatic insurgency on her own benches. But she's still not up to much.
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
The reason that we are in a semi vacuum is the legal arguments and the Supreme Court hearing.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
I'm not talking about Brexit, I'm talking about everything else.
But Brexit is dominating everything else at present
Precisely. Result: a zombie government, lurching toward the next election, whenever it might be.
Thank goodness variously snubbing and insulting our European neighbours is more important than education, health, or the economy!
I dont see much wrong with our economy
Take your dark glasses off, then.
Our surface prosperity and low unemployment mask a deep regional divide, a low skill and low productivity economy, and a stagnant standard of living for the majority.
Some here are pretty caustic about the poll, but it seems an honest attempt to state the main alternative directions. Naturally the final outcome will differ in ways that we can't predict, but as a rough guide "Don't wreck the economy over immigration" and "Get on with it and don't bother me again" seem plausible statements of the public mood. I'm convinced that there are lots of voters who have in any case reverted to not giving Europe much thought, and just vaguely think "yeah, we're leaving, let's hope migration gets controlled and things don't go too badly". How they'll feel in practice is hard to predict.
I can understand 15pc of leave voters preferring soft brexit. In fact im surprised it's not higher. But 12pc of remain voters preferring hard brexit? Did they tick the wrong box?
It's not true to say nothing is happening. Liam Fox has been busy
"In order to minimise disruption to global trade as we leave the EU, over the coming period the government will prepare the necessary draft schedules which replicate as far as possible our current obligations."
It is a startling admission. The UK's extracted WTO schedules will "replicate as far as possible" it's current status. So we'll keep the special rule for oranges, even though we don't grow them. We will continue to protect a sugar process designed for Europe and continue failing to protect one used by one of our major companies, despite its years of lobbying to change the system.
In short, despite all the sound and the fury, despite all the attacks against immigrants and the threats against EU citizens in the UK, despite all the Brexit votes and the Richmond rebellions and the sudden change in this country's political dynamic, the government is not aiming to change anything of any substance. Britain will keep the exact EU tariff system which Brexiters for so long said was strangling it.
Why? Because to do otherwise would be suicide. The WTO has been presented by Brexiters as a safety net, a place to go if no deal is possible with the EU. They keep on saying that they have no concern about falling back on their rules. This is because they don't know what they are.
@Big_G_NorthWales Cobblers as usual. The High Court granted a leap frog order. The Supreme Court cleared diaries to get a hearing date that would fit with the government's timetable of A50 invocation " early next year ". Only after this did May then say " by the end of March. " at Tory conference. The Courts have worked quickly t meet the government's timetable. The Court hearings have delayed nothing.
And of course the court hearings could have been circumvented at any point by just using an Act anyway then defending the point of law on Prerogative later. Or god forbid the Referendum Act could have had a few extra clauses making it binding.
It's the usual Leaver bed wetting. Their is no conspiracy. The Government has chosen delay f it's own volition because it's bloody complicated and there was no plan. You won. Act like winners. Get on with it.
I voted remain.
Theresa May is inhibited by the Supreme Court but I would accept that she is using the delay to give her time to plan the process.
I would be amazed if in late January we are still in a vacuum
Indeed. The reason for the delay was the complete lack of preparation for the vote, followed by the change of leadership - both of which lie firmly at the door of the previous PM rather than the current incumbent.
As you say, the supreme court verdict early in the new year should be what starts the ball rolling.
Who will stop the ball rolling down the hill and over the cliff edge down into the sea ?
I can understand 15pc of leave voters preferring soft brexit. In fact im surprised it's not higher. But 12pc of remain voters preferring hard brexit? Did they tick the wrong box?
Well, both Big G and Mr Meeks are in this bucket, aren't they? For different reasons.
I can understand 15pc of leave voters preferring soft brexit. In fact im surprised it's not higher. But 12pc of remain voters preferring hard brexit? Did they tick the wrong box?
There is logic to it.
If Brexit must be, then the harder the better. That is the only way to purge the toxin.
If soft Brexit is a bit shit, the Brexiteers will forever blame it on Brexit not being hard enough, stymied by soft Brexiteers and other Traitors.
Only full fat, hard and fast Brexit will answer the question "for a generation"
EDIT: Of course my previous post illustrates that "hard Brexit" may in many cases be indistinguishable from "soft Brexit" anyway
I can understand 15pc of leave voters preferring soft brexit. In fact im surprised it's not higher. But 12pc of remain voters preferring hard brexit? Did they tick the wrong box?
They're probably of the view that we voted as we did so might as well get on with it, and getting out quickly reduces uncertainly compared to a long and protracted negotiation.
@Big_G_NorthWales Yes I know you voted Remain. Before coming on here day after day to post at the most lurid end of the europhobic spectrum. It's almost as if you've no underlying principles and just spout whatever the current Tory leader is saying.
Anyway as @SeanT would say Chillax. Pax. It's Christmas. We should pace ourselves as we've years of Brexit to go. Indeed if we are looking at ' Greater Brexit ' - what of the imported Acquis to repeal and the terms of new trade deals we'll still be arguing about Brexit in 2030. I'm looking forward to the Documentary crews from the best performing A8 countries visiting Leaverstan in 15 years time myself. The comparisons will be fascinating.
Amazing show of consensus from Leavers for the government to continue doing nothing instead of delivering the biggest peacetime upheaval we've ever seen.
Amazing show of consensus from Leavers for the government to continue doing nothing instead of delivering the biggest peacetime upheaval we've ever seen.
I thought the point of Leaving was to, inter alia, support hard pressed plasterers in the Midlands from unfair competition. Because the system is at breaking point, and we just couldn't carry on.
Turns out they're quite happy as things are, thank you very much!
Amazing show of consensus from Leavers for the government to continue doing nothing instead of delivering the biggest peacetime upheaval we've ever seen.
Prefer they take time to plan. They've said the clock will start at the end of March and that's fine.
There's a lot to be said for not distracting resource with hyperactivity in other areas.
Amazing show of consensus from Leavers for the government to continue doing nothing instead of delivering the biggest peacetime upheaval we've ever seen.
They've said the clock will start at the end of March and that's fine.
Theresa May has a corker of a Brexit Fools' Joke lined up.
Of course it's the way they intend to behave, for pity's sake! Why would you think they would act differently? I've been saying this for years, including before the vote. The LEAVEr delusion that the UK could dictate its own terms and cherrypick what it wanted was simply that: a delusion. Even the article above is based on the assumption that we can decide on the deal, whether in detail or timescale. I have a horrible feeling that one of my best lines on this board ("when they've worked out what the deal is, they'll tell us") will turn out to be the plain unvarnished truth.
The Remainer delusion was that the UK could stay in the EU and dictate the way in which the whole edifice operated in defiance of the wishes of the other 27 countries.
I can understand 15pc of leave voters preferring soft brexit. In fact im surprised it's not higher. But 12pc of remain voters preferring hard brexit? Did they tick the wrong box?
My guess would be that that is the 'sovereignty no matter what the cost or damage' lot, who will see any free trade deal which continues to impose EU law as a betrayal.
Of course it's the way they intend to behave, for pity's sake! Why would you think they would act differently? I've been saying this for years, including before the vote. The LEAVEr delusion that the UK could dictate its own terms and cherrypick what it wanted was simply that: a delusion. Even the article above is based on the assumption that we can decide on the deal, whether in detail or timescale. I have a horrible feeling that one of my best lines on this board ("when they've worked out what the deal is, they'll tell us") will turn out to be the plain unvarnished truth.
The Remainer delusion was that the UK could stay in the EU and dictate the way in which the whole edifice operated in defiance of the wishes of the other 27 countries.
Why would we want to dictate the whole thing? And why would we always be against the combined wishes of the 27?
In one sentence the whole Brexit mixture of post imperial delusion and paranoia is laid bare.
The LD will probably do well in Stockport for historical reasons, but will get pulverized in the rest of Greater Manchester, where they have zero strength and zero roots.
Amazing show of consensus from Leavers for the government to continue doing nothing instead of delivering the biggest peacetime upheaval we've ever seen.
I suspect the Leavers are gripped by a sense of paralysis: whatever happens next is unlikely to be pretty, and they'll be expected to justify it, so better to stick with dreamland for as long as possible. I'll make one prediction though: when Theresa finally does show her hand, the Leavers on here and in the media will be almost unanimously rhapsodic. To do anything else would be tantamount to admitting defeat, and the stakes have got far too high for that. (I don't include Farage in this, who will heap opprobrium on May's proposals regardless, but he now has other fish to fry.)
The LD will probably do well in Stockport for historical reasons, but will get pulverized in the rest of Greater Manchester, where they have zero strength and zero roots.
Until the 2015 election the Lib Dems had more MPs than the Tories in Greater Manchester and Andy Burnham is a terrible campaigner. They're they only ones who can stop him so by default have a non-zero chance.
Comments
We should leave but immediately apply to rejoin?
Theresa May is the only leader at present competent enough to take on this complex issue and I would suggest no leader since the war has a more difficult problem to solve. If you can suggest someone else who could lead the Country at present please do so.
I did not suggest those who want to remain should 'shut up' but to take a more positive way forward and stop trying to play the referendum again and actually frustrate the will of the people
Is there anything that isn't the fault of the EU?
Southern Trains, herpes, the annoying moment when you try to buy alcohol from a self serve machine and it requests an ID check...
"Mr. Walker, the anti-democratic means of electing a government with a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum, a Commons vote passing the referendum and the electorate then voting in that referendum to leave the EU? I'm not sure that's anti-democratic."
The bill passed to authorise the referendum stated that the referendum was merely advisory, and that Parliament would make the final decision with note taken of the result. Therefore, Parliament is well within its rights to overrule the referendum result.
However, MPs who vote against triggering A50 risk defeat at the next GE if their constituents take exception in sufficiently large numbers at the next GE. This is primarily a risk for Labour MPs in impoverished Leave-leaning constituencies in South Wales and the North of England. Members of the HoL don't need to worry about this risk and can vote according to what they believe is in the best interests of the UK.
I live in the sixth best place to live in the UK!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38351138
I could happily move to any of the top ten, though I might have trouble to persuade Mrs J to move to Orkney!
Orkney seems an odd place to be second; as are the Orkneys at 18th.
It's a disgrace.
It's just that for 40-odd years, the EU has been part of life in UK politics. Naturally anyone who isn't EU-inclined isn't going to bother with a career in that direction; they'll do something with more job satisfaction for them.
For many of our politicians, the EU has been the go-to place after their home career is over: a sort of retirement job (without any denigratory overtones the phrase might imply). Just another part of the career ladder.
If that part doesn't attract you either, again, you'd start off in some career direction other than politics.
So what we now have is a generation of people who've mainly gone into politics accepting the EU's position in UK affairs; in other words, looking for leadership towards ex-UK sources. Why would people like that be leaders themselves? People with strong leadership urges wouldn't bother in the first place.
Great come back for 10 man Leicester! some fight again at last.
That seems implausibly high and the ONS offers the figure of £475 excluding bonuses. Is that a mistake or am I misreading the article?
As for being positive, we Remainers have a moral duty to criticise the Government given the utter lack of Opposition.
The people spoke, Cameron resigned, and now we must get the best deal for the UK out of the EU. My only point about those who voted remain and lost is tgat a morecpositive response to leaving would help the process, as there is no evidence to suggest that we could just change our mind and stop the process, it would be politically impossible
It's been nearly six months now. Can anyone give me an example of an actual policy advance?
This is a zombie government. The Major comparison is apt, it's like the 1993-1997 era.
This is a criticism I have the BBC News online; they often quite research and reports and do not link to them. It looks as if it is the Halifax Quality of Life Survey, but I'm having trouble finding it.
I cannot explain the discrepancy. But then why should I, when I live in such a glorious place to live. Rejoice!
That's not to say we shouldn't fight Brexit. We must exhaust every democratic and non violent means of doing fighting Brexit. But we must do it by accepting Brexit as the new paradigm. I think a second referendum is for the birds.
Labour voters back soft Brexit by 58% to 19% for hard Brexit.
LD voters back soft Brexit by 72% to 14% for hard Brexit.
UKIP voters back hard Brexit by 75% to 10% for soft Brexit.
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/810116884850941953
The 1st thing we need to do is remind ourselves that before The Referendum only 5% thought that Europe was important, the vote itself made the issue central & split us down the middle.
Referenda are always a bad idea (unless you have a Civil War to settle) but votes about issues most people dont much care about are worse, voters are tempted to answer some other question such as " do you like Cameron ?"
Welsh voters back hard Brexit by 40% to 27% for soft Brexit.
Scottish voters back soft Brexit by 56% to 25% for hard Brexit.
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/810118255457222657
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/germany-s-rent-jew-project-aims-fight-anti-semitism-n695306
It raises the question, which you pose, of what happens if (when) the messiness becomes all too apparent. Probably a mixture of two things: (1) Perceptions are at fault. Stop remoaning. (2) It's all the fault of the EU, liberal elites etc. These excuses are already being made. What most Leavers will never accept is that the messiness is the direct consequence of the decision to leave the EU.
More interesting is what will happen when those that don't subscribe to that simplistic world view attempt to deal with the messiness or preempt it. We're seeing some of the issues in reactions to Philip Hammonds attempts at getting a transition deal.
When the judgement is delivered in January I expect Theresa May to accept the verdict and immediately take the action required to permit A50 to be served.
You will see action from then on, but if I am wrong, you will have reason to justify your statement but you do not have that at present
Having said that, any second referendum would have the benefit of people actually having clarity on whatever choice is to be made.
The first has left a gaping hole in our constitution. How to democratically validate whatever course the government is able to negotiate, and to do so before such a course is irrevocable?
And of course the court hearings could have been circumvented at any point by just using an Act anyway then defending the point of law on Prerogative later. Or god forbid the Referendum Act could have had a few extra clauses making it binding.
It's the usual Leaver bed wetting. Their is no conspiracy. The Government has chosen delay f it's own volition because it's bloody complicated and there was no plan. You won. Act like winners. Get on with it.
Lidl gravy granules found to contain paint thinner chemical
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38352738
Thank goodness variously snubbing and insulting our European neighbours is more important than education, health, or the economy!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/17/exclusive-britain-will-front-queue-trade-deal-us-donald-trumps/
Theresa May is inhibited by the Supreme Court but I would accept that she is using the delay to give her time to plan the process.
I would be amazed if in late January we are still in a vacuum
As you say, the supreme court verdict early in the new year should be what starts the ball rolling.
Admit it - it's all just meaningless noise. You simply want anyone who thinks we've made a dreadful mistake that will only make things worse to either have a Pauline conversion on the road to Clacton or just shut up and bugger off.
Our surface prosperity and low unemployment mask a deep regional divide, a low skill and low productivity economy, and a stagnant standard of living for the majority.
"In order to minimise disruption to global trade as we leave the EU, over the coming period the government will prepare the necessary draft schedules which replicate as far as possible our current obligations."
It is a startling admission. The UK's extracted WTO schedules will "replicate as far as possible" it's current status. So we'll keep the special rule for oranges, even though we don't grow them. We will continue to protect a sugar process designed for Europe and continue failing to protect one used by one of our major companies, despite its years of lobbying to change the system.
In short, despite all the sound and the fury, despite all the attacks against immigrants and the threats against EU citizens in the UK, despite all the Brexit votes and the Richmond rebellions and the sudden change in this country's political dynamic, the government is not aiming to change anything of any substance. Britain will keep the exact EU tariff system which Brexiters for so long said was strangling it.
Why? Because to do otherwise would be suicide. The WTO has been presented by Brexiters as a safety net, a place to go if no deal is possible with the EU. They keep on saying that they have no concern about falling back on their rules. This is because they don't know what they are.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie
"It is not clear why other EU member states would give Britain a better deal than they themselves enjoy."
"If Brexit isn’t fatal to the European Union, we might find that it is fatal to the Union with Scotland."
"I believe the case to remain a member of the European Union is strong."
"Yet Parliament remains sovereign: if it voted to leave the EU, we would do so."
If Brexit must be, then the harder the better. That is the only way to purge the toxin.
If soft Brexit is a bit shit, the Brexiteers will forever blame it on Brexit not being hard enough, stymied by soft Brexiteers and other Traitors.
Only full fat, hard and fast Brexit will answer the question "for a generation"
EDIT: Of course my previous post illustrates that "hard Brexit" may in many cases be indistinguishable from "soft Brexit" anyway
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/810179988825640960
Overall, I'm pretty content with Theresa May's government.
Scott_P 6:45PM
Is that because they haven't done anything yet?
As a rule that's my favourite type of government.
Turns out they're quite happy as things are, thank you very much!
There's a lot to be said for not distracting resource with hyperactivity in other areas.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617781
And why would we always be against the combined wishes of the 27?
In one sentence the whole Brexit mixture of post imperial delusion and paranoia is laid bare.
The LD will probably do well in Stockport for historical reasons, but will get pulverized in the rest of Greater Manchester, where they have zero strength and zero roots.
I suspect the Leavers are gripped by a sense of paralysis: whatever happens next is unlikely to be pretty...
Nope. I'm gripped with a massive sense of hope and optimism for a glorious future.
How's life in your bunker of gloom, misery and loss?
Still no quote button on the main site.
The Remainers claim they accept the quote button will be coming back because the majority want it back.
But there needs to be a court case or two first to decide if anyone has the power to ask for a fix.