"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." Is now considered anti-semitic? So what the hell are we supposed to call what Israel is doing to Palestine (or whats left of it) if thats not genocide. The terror state of Israel is carrying out genocide right now!
I'm probably going to regret posting this, but here goes..
It's Christmas. The season of goodwill. A time to put away the troubles of the year and come together as families, friends and communities. To celebrate the relationships we share, the warmth of the human spirit, to show generosity to one other, relax and have fun.
Yet this Christmas, all I've seen and heard is: Brexit, referendum, Brexit, referendum, Brexit, Brexit.. I've had arguments at catch-ups with close friends, it's created tensions within my family, and cordial relationships I've previously had with some of my peers at work have either loosened, or been soured. I totally underestimated how divisive this referendum would be. I thought after the vote, we'd all largely move on, and come together, but it hasn't been like that. Not at all. In fact, in many respects, it's got worse. The debate, such as it is, is relentless, and there is no end to it. It is often tense, it can be unpleasant, and, not on occasion, it can get nasty.
Have I contributed to this?
Yes, I have - absolutely. And I'm not proud of that. Not at all. I've been prickly, quick to judge and slow to listen. And I'm ashamed of that - if I could turn the clock back, and change my behaviour over the last six months, I would.
I'm not saying this to make a "Remain" or "Leave" point on either side. Yes, I want to Leave. Others equally want - just as strongly - to Remain. We all have strong views. The referendum split the country in half, and it is still splitting the country in half. But, honestly, can't we find it in ourselves to give all of us a bit of a break over the next couple of weeks? To rediscover what else we liked about each other, once?
To be honest, I'm tired of it all. Part of me just wants a break. I know some may think I don't deserve one, but I know none of us are really bad people at heart. We are all Britons, and we all want the best for the country.
I will - from now on - do my level best to try and stick to this, at the very least until the New Year. Because there's more to life than just our membership of the EU, and I don't want it to define my personal, or online, relationships for the rest of my life.
Not my best post. Not very coherent. But that's how I feel.
I have only had one person get cross with me for my views on Brexit.
That was before the vote and we are cool and the gang now.
At work we all remainers and leavers alike just shrugged and got on with life.
In all honesty- if this strains friendships it says more about them them it does about you.
I rarely FPT myself - but frankly, I've had a total skinful of liberal men on PB and elsewhere handwaving waving the cultural behaviour that's been imported by no knowledge nitwits, virtue signalling to stroke their own egos. You'd never accept this impinging on your daily lives. Ever. Oh, and have a burkah - black or maybe sky blue.
TBH, my entire experience of Morocco was hmm bar buying a nice camel leather handbag.
I'm a tough bird, and the misogyny/grabby behaviour was appalling. My handful of female fellow Landies were left so intimidated that they gave me shopping lists as they couldn't cope with the local men.
I was leered at/asked for sex/grabbed walking down the street for merely being white. I was covered head to foot and followed everywhere by creepy men/my chest commented on/assumed to be a prostitute.
I was on rural Morocco/Algerian
[Snipped]
This isn't tourist stuff - it's alternative life - anyone with a spec of knowledge of this culture has held up their hands and said WTF?
I am sure that it was just locker room behaviour, nothing wrong with a little pussy grabbing is there?
If you'd ever been the victim of sexual assault - and I have - you'd never say something like that.
I am sick to the back teeth of men, or indeed anyone, demeaning women's experience in this way. It is awful behavior; it happens far far too often; it is excused far too often. It's not locker room behaviour or amusing or something we should have to just put up with or laugh of, even though we have to do that just to get on with our lives. It's not a sideshow or an adjunct to more serious crimes. Sexual assault of women is a serious crime. And it happens to all women everywhere, whether its women in war zones, women out celebrating at night, or young girls in Africa, going to school and forced to provide sexual favours to get good marks or young vulnerable girls groomed by the manipulative and ignored by the powerful because they don't count or are not seen as "nice girls".
Welcome to our world, chaps. It's repellent and it needs to stop. A man who treats a woman like a piece of meat, with a lack of respect and courtesy, is no gentleman, no matter how much he may protest about honour.
My point was that Plato was quite happy to be an apologist for Trumps behaviour (hence locker room talk, and pussy grabbing), so there is a certain inconsistency. Irony seems to have been missed!
I have always condemned such misogynistic behaviour on here, whether in Morocco, Thailand, or Trump Tower.
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Project fear from the Guardian no less - both sides need to get a grip and see how the deal progresses. Fear stories from either side are not going to win the case for either side.
Hammonds comment today to the Treasury Select Committee about 'more thoughtful politicians' is just what is needed as there will not be a soft Brexit nor a hard Brexit though whatever Brexit there is free movement of people will have to be addressed, anything less would betray a large part of the 52%
A bit unusual for YouGov to be showing a bigger Tory lead than ICM - though the fieldwork for the latter is a week later.The ICM figures imply a Tory majority of 74 with Labour just managing to stay above 200 seats.
I'm not sure at this point in the parliament we have to worry about a couple of points either way.
Well - we have now reached the 32% mark of this Parliament!
All we need to know is that going from Milliband to Corbyn is like going from Kinnock to Foot.
Jeremy Corbyn is going to make Ed Miliband look like Tony Blair
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet, and this is probably going to be our last quiet Christmas run-up for a fair few years.
Yet the lights are starting to get to him, and he's realising that more parcels than usual are coming through the door. I'm worried he'll understand within the next twelve days ...
A friend's son, the same age, is apparently waking up every morning asking if it's Christmas yet.
I'm probably going to regret posting this, but here goes..
It's Christmas. The season of goodwill. A time to put away the troubles of the year and come together as families, friends and communities. To celebrate the relationships we share, the warmth of the human spirit, to show generosity to one other, relax and have fun.
Have I contributed to this?
Yes, I have - absolutely. And I'm not proud of that. Not at all. I've been prickly, quick to judge and slow to listen. And I'm ashamed of that - if I could turn the clock back, and change my behaviour over the last six months, I would.
I'm not saying this to make a "Remain" or "Leave" point on either side. Yes, I want to Leave. Others equally want - just as strongly - to Remain. We all have strong views. The referendum split the country in half, and it is still splitting the country in half. But, honestly, can't we find it in ourselves to give all of us a bit of a break over the next couple of weeks? To rediscover what else we liked about each other, once?
To be honest, I'm tired of it all. Part of me just wants a break. I know some may think I don't deserve one, but I know none of us are really bad people at heart. We are all Britons, and we all want the best for the country.
I will - from now on - do my level best to try and stick to this, at the very least until the New Year. Because there's more to life than just our membership of the EU, and I don't want it to define my personal, or online, relationships for the rest of my life.
Not my best post. Not very coherent. But that's how I feel.
A good post.
I suspect the difference between this referendum and most of the GEs of the past 20 years is that it results in a real change of direction for the whole country and has the potential to create a lot of losers.
That nothing has happened yet, only allows people's uncertainty and worry to simmer.
Also, regretfully there has been no leadership shown in trying to reunite the country. No effort to bring people together to build a better future. Simply banal generalities.
I would agree, but Brexit and its fallout will dominate the next decade of politics. Christmas dinner is going to be a bit tense. Grandpa Fox will never shut up about Brexit
Ed Conwy reporting that Phil Hammond has told the Treasury Select Committee today that he is in favour of a transitional deal with the EU to lessen the disruption of Brexit
He went on to say that Phil Hammond had referred to the 'more thoughtful politicians', which seems like a subtle barb at David Davis and Barnier whom are not interested in transitional relief and that he may well have included the Prime Minister in his reference to 'more thoughtful politicians'
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
There two distinct kinds of transitional deals. One is where you agree the destination and then a transitional deal that takes you part of the way, while you get the final pieces in place. The other is a temporary arrangement that allows you to keep operating until you work out what you are going to do next. It is much harder to get parties to agree to the second type of agreement. Agreement for time limited arrangements may actually be more difficult than for permanent ones because no-one trusts your motives.
In other words we are more likely to get a temporary customs arrangement if it is a stepping stone to a permanent one than if we are hoping to do something different later.
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
Sorry.. on tube and now train with patchy reception!
I think your post sums up a lot of people's feelings at present and in some ways was the reason why I posted last night that the repetitive arguments from each side are becoming a yawn and that some will stray from posting.
We all need to calm down and wait for the Supreme Court in the new year
I always read your posts with great interest and would like to wish both you and your family a happy and peaceful Christmas 2016
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
So that will help provide work for people to do, creating the infrastructure & then staffing it. Maybe Brexit will be a bit of a boost.
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet...
You've got him reading PB already? Impressive!
I'm not sure if I should admit this, as it might constitute some form of cruel and unusual punishment, but I often read PB posts out to him.
Well, they say you should read to your child, and I get a little fed up with 'Bear Hunt' (*), 'Ten in a bed' (**) and 'Will and Fitz, the Cambridge Cats'.
(*) I prefer the parody 'We're going on a bar hunt' (**) Which might read as a particularly salacious tabloid story about a Tory MP.
I rarely FPT myself - but frankly, I've had a total skinful of liberal men on PB and elsewhere handwaving waving the cultural behaviour that's been imported by no knowledge nitwits, virtue signalling to stroke their own egos. You'd never accept this impinging on your daily lives. Ever. Oh, and have a burkah - black or maybe sky blue.
TBH, my entire experience of Morocco was hmm bar buying a nice camel leather handbag.
I'm a tough bird, and the misogyny/grabby behaviour was appalling. My handful of female fellow Landies were left so intimidated that they gave me shopping lists as they couldn't cope with the local men.
I was leered at/asked for sex/grabbed walking down the street for merely being white. I was covered head to foot and followed everywhere by creepy men/my chest commented on/assumed to be a prostitute.
I was on rural Morocco/Algerian
[Snipped]
This isn't tourist stuff - it's alternative life - anyone with a spec of knowledge of this culture has held up their hands and said WTF?
I am sure that it was just locker room behaviour, nothing wrong with a little pussy grabbing is there?
If you'd ever been the victim of sexual assault - and I have - you'd never say something like that.
I am sick to the back teeth of men, or indeed anyone, demeaning women's experience in this way. It is awful behavior; it happens far far too often; it is excused far too often. It's not locker room behaviour or amusing or something we should have to just put up with or laugh of, even though we have to do that just to get on with our lives. It's not a sideshow or an adjunct to more serious crimes. Sexual assault of women is a serious crime. And it happens to all women everywhere, whether its women in war zones, women out celebrating at night, or young girls in Africa, going to school and forced to provide sexual favours to get good marks or young vulnerable girls groomed by the manipulative and ignored by the powerful because they don't count or are not seen as "nice girls".
Welcome to our world, chaps. It's repellent and it needs to stop. A man who treats a woman like a piece of meat, with a lack of respect and courtesy, is no gentleman, no matter how much he may protest about honour.
My point was that Plato was quite happy to be an apologist for Trumps behaviour (hence locker room talk, and pussy grabbing), so there is a certain inconsistency. Irony seems to have been missed!
I have always condemned such misogynistic behaviour on here, whether in Morocco, Thailand, or Trump Tower.
Stop pointing out peoples hypocrisy, its annoying.
You and I have had our moments but I treat all exchanges as taking place under internet rules. We mean what we say but there is an Internet element that would not be present if we were to meet.
As to the content, I view Brexit and its proponents as do I Labour voters after a Labour victory. Deeply misguided, illogical and naive but pointing our views out to each other is I suppose that's why we're all on here.
I rarely FPT myself - but frankly, I've had a total skinful of liberal men on PB and elsewhere handwaving waving the cultural behaviour that's been imported by no knowledge nitwits, virtue signalling to stroke their own egos. You'd never accept this impinging on your daily lives. Ever. Oh, and have a burkah - black or maybe sky blue.
TBH, my entire experience of Morocco was hmm bar buying a nice camel leather handbag.
I'm a tough bird, and the misogyny/grabby behaviour was appalling. My handful of female fellow Landies were left so intimidated that they gave me shopping lists as they couldn't cope with the local men.
I was leered at/asked for sex/grabbed walking down the street for merely being white. I was covered head to foot and followed everywhere by creepy men/my chest commented on/assumed to be a prostitute.
[Snipped]
I am sure that it was just locker room behaviour, nothing wrong with a little pussy grabbing is there?
If you'd ever been the victim of sexual assault - and I have - you'd never say something like that.
I am sick to the back teeth of men, or indeed anyone, demeaning women's experience in this way. It is awful behavior; it happens far far too often; it is excused far too often. It's not locker room behaviour or amusing or something we should have to just put up with or laugh of, even though we have to do that just to get on with our lives. It's not a sideshow or an adjunct to more serious crimes. Sexual assault of women is a serious crime. And it happens to all women everywhere, whether its women in war zones, women out celebrating at night, or young girls in Africa, going to school and forced to provide sexual favours to get good marks or young vulnerable girls groomed by the manipulative and ignored by the powerful because they don't count or are not seen as "nice girls".
Welcome to our world, chaps. It's repellent and it needs to stop. A man who treats a woman like a piece of meat, with a lack of respect and courtesy, is no gentleman, no matter how much he may protest about honour.
My point was that Plato was quite happy to be an apologist for Trumps behaviour (hence locker room talk, and pussy grabbing), so there is a certain inconsistency. Irony seems to have been missed!
I have always condemned such misogynistic behaviour on here, whether in Morocco, Thailand, or Trump Tower.
Oh I got the irony all right.
But nonetheless sometimes men need reminding that what may seem like a story to you is too often real life for us.
And in any case I speak for myself. Plato is well able to speak for herself.
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
Hard borders. Customs checks on all people and stuff in and out of every port
The Irish will be really chuffed...
I thought Norway didn't have such a border with Sweden?
They do. It's a problem.
Ah okay. What are the problems?
Customs checks and paperwork on commercial goods passing between Sweden and Norway. It amounts to a significant business cost even though no duties are payable as both countries are in the EEA. People are OK because both countries are in Schengen.
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
So that will help provide work for people to do, creating the infrastructure & then staffing it. Maybe Brexit will be a bit of a boost.
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
It would mean doubling the customs volume of goods and passengers, to include EU trade as well as non EU trade, and there aren't necessarily enough customs lanes or space inside all the existing ports and airports to do that. You can't have one entry point unready because you create a gap in your customs border/net.
Restrictions on free movement should be easier as we're already outside Schengen and check every passport, although more staff may be needed for extra checks.
I wouldn't be surprised at a 5-7 year transition deal whilst we sort out our position with the WTO and negotiate new trade agreements during the transition period.
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
So that will help provide work for people to do, creating the infrastructure & then staffing it. Maybe Brexit will be a bit of a boost.
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
It would mean doubling the customs volume of goods and passengers, to include EU trade as well as non EU trade, and there aren't necessarily enough customs lanes or space inside all the existing ports and airports to do that. I work in construction and that would require an awful lot of ports and airports planning expertise that I'm not sure we have. You could do a bit of portakabin work in an emergency but that would be slow. Trouble is you can't really have one entry point unready because you create a gap or severe delays in your customs border/net.
Restrictions on free movement should be easier as we're already outside Schengen and check every passport, although more staff may be needed for extra checks.
I wouldn't be surprised at a 5-7 year transition deal whilst we sort out our position with the WTO and negotiate new trade agreements during the transition period.
Sorry.. on tube and now train with patchy reception!
I think your post sums up a lot of people's feelings at present and in some ways was the reason why I posted last night that the repetitive arguments from each side are becoming a yawn and that some will stray from posting.
We all need to calm down and wait for the Supreme Court in the new year
I always read your posts with great interest and would like to wish both you and your family a happy and peaceful Christmas 2016
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet...
You've got him reading PB already? Impressive!
I'm not sure if I should admit this, as it might constitute some form of cruel and unusual punishment, but I often read PB posts out to him.
Well, they say you should read to your child, and I get a little fed up with 'Bear Hunt' (*), 'Ten in a bed' (**) and 'Will and Fitz, the Cambridge Cats'.
(*) I prefer the parody 'We're going on a bar hunt' (**) Which might read as a particularly salacious tabloid story about a Tory MP.
Room on the Broom is/was my favourite story to read to my grandchildren.
Just to comment on the outrage bus having arrived at Ronnie Scott's earlier...
You are delicate petals aren't you leavers....., maybe you can find a safer space somewhere else where you won't be triggered.
I'm a big fan of point to point racing. In any election year it's standard form at most point to points for the paying customer to be treated to a five to ten minute spiel identifying anyone not fully signed up to hunting (in particular) and other country pursuits (more generally) as an enemy of our traditional way of life and exhorting the assembled masses that a vote for the Tories is the only way that Country life can survive. I personally don't think it is a good way of treating your paying guests to shove party politics down their throats - and it does grate on me, especially when our pro hunting then LibDem MP was traduced along with the rest, but you just take it on the chin.
Mind you, since the 1990s when the culture wars around hunting took off, it's been noticeable that the great crowds of townies that used to attend a day at the local ptp races have declined massively - but that could be broader cultural change.
Anyway, I'm off. Not sure if I'll watch it, but worth knowing Time Commanders is back for a third series (a mere 11 years or so after the second) on BBC4 at 9pm.
Anyway, I'm off. Not sure if I'll watch it, but worth knowing Time Commanders is back for a third series (a mere 11 years or so after the second) on BBC4 at 9pm.
cheerio. I've set it to record but not sure I like the idea of greg wallace as the presenter.
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet...
You've got him reading PB already? Impressive!
I'm not sure if I should admit this, as it might constitute some form of cruel and unusual punishment, but I often read PB posts out to him.
Well, they say you should read to your child, and I get a little fed up with 'Bear Hunt' (*), 'Ten in a bed' (**) and 'Will and Fitz, the Cambridge Cats'.
(*) I prefer the parody 'We're going on a bar hunt' (**) Which might read as a particularly salacious tabloid story about a Tory MP.
Room on the Broom is/was my favourite story to read to my grandchildren.
Do you know that story about the man who had several clocks on several floors of his house, and until he got a watch he could never get them all telling the same time?
The funniest story I've come across, but can't remember what it was called. (A long time since I was reading it to small relatives.)
Anyway, I'm off. Not sure if I'll watch it, but worth knowing Time Commanders is back for a third series (a mere 11 years or so after the second) on BBC4 at 9pm.
cheerio. I've set it to record but not sure I like the idea of greg wallace as the presenter.
His series on factories have been quite interesting.
Anyway, I'm off. Not sure if I'll watch it, but worth knowing Time Commanders is back for a third series (a mere 11 years or so after the second) on BBC4 at 9pm.
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet...
You've got him reading PB already? Impressive!
I'm not sure if I should admit this, as it might constitute some form of cruel and unusual punishment, but I often read PB posts out to him.
Well, they say you should read to your child, and I get a little fed up with 'Bear Hunt' (*), 'Ten in a bed' (**) and 'Will and Fitz, the Cambridge Cats'.
(*) I prefer the parody 'We're going on a bar hunt' (**) Which might read as a particularly salacious tabloid story about a Tory MP.
Room on the Broom is/was my favourite story to read to my grandchildren.
Do you know that story about the man who had several clocks on several floors of his house, and until he got a watch he could never get them all telling the same time?
The funniest story I've come across, but can't remember what it was called. (A long time since I was reading it to small relatives.)
(edited to delete extra 'the')
no, but it does sound fun! my eldest grandchild has got beyond the being read to age and the younger two are more into watching youtube and dvds. but I caught the elder of those reading a book to herself yesterday so there's hope. (she's only just 5 and can't really read but she was doing a jolly good job of making up the story from looking at the pictures).
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
So that will help provide work for people to do, creating the infrastructure & then staffing it. Maybe Brexit will be a bit of a boost.
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
The international logistics companies think Brexit is a wonderful opportunity to sell their services for smooth international trade.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
You and I have had our moments but I treat all exchanges as taking place under internet rules. We mean what we say but there is an Internet element that would not be present if we were to meet.
As to the content, I view Brexit and its proponents as do I Labour voters after a Labour victory. Deeply misguided, illogical and naive but pointing our views out to each other is I suppose that's why we're all on here.
I'm probably going to regret posting this, but here goes..
snip......
Have I contributed to this?
Yes, I have - absolutely. And I'm not proud of that. Not at all. I've been prickly, quick to judge and slow to listen. And I'm ashamed of that - if I could turn the clock back, and change my behaviour over the last six months, I would.
I'm not saying this to make a "Remain" or "Leave" point on either side. Yes, I want to Leave. Others equally want - just as strongly - to Remain. We all have strong views. The referendum split the country in half, and it is still splitting the country in half. But, honestly, can't we find it in ourselves to give all of us a bit of a break over the next couple of weeks? To rediscover what else we liked about each other, once?
To be honest, I'm tired of it all. Part of me just wants a break. I know some may think I don't deserve one, but I know none of us are really bad people at heart. We are all Britons, and we all want the best for the country.
I will - from now on - do my level best to try and stick to this, at the very least until the New Year. Because there's more to life than just our membership of the EU, and I don't want it to define my personal, or online, relationships for the rest of my life.
Not my best post. Not very coherent. But that's how I feel.
A good post and one with which I sympathize. Likely however to fall on deaf ears sadly. The problem is not the result it is simply the time it will take to implement it and that is something none of us can control. I am reconciled to it but like many others face continuing uncertainty regarding the future of Brits abroad. Either way my future is settled to stay in Spain but there are many who I know will not have that option if the terms are very hard.
This is basically the issue, at a GE we vote for the Govt but one way or another the overall effect is at the margins. It makes a difference but largely life goes on. Brexit is different, it affects fundamentals of how we see ourselves and our place in the world. For some it directly affects their hopes, fears and prospects. The impact is far bigger and more divisive than any other vote in my lifetime. And if the winners create a car crash they will be held to account accordingly.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
Well, isn't that the point? Soft Brexit/cherry picking/special deals = no Brexit.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
Well, isn't that the point? Soft Brexit/cherry picking/special deals = no Brexit.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
Well, isn't that the point? Soft Brexit/cherry picking/special deals = no Brexit.
We will leave the EU one way or another - there is no way back to the EU as they would insist on free movement and that is not acceptable - this issue has to be addressed
The EU seeking to have UK citizens opt out of UK law and into EU law will not win them many friends beyond EU-philes.
I know a lot of people that works love to opt out of uk law, specifically the restrictions on possession and consumption of certain substances. Can you let me know how the EU will enable British citizens to opt out of those laws?
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Sharia law? Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Oh dear! I've just flicked through the thread and tomorrow I go to Marrakesh! Memo to self; buy reinforced breast protectors. Last time I was there I swapped my stop-watch for a toy camel which everyone thought was very generous.
It was ten years ago and I've still got the camel and I've never had a stop watch that's lasted ten years.
Thinking about it the locals were a bit touchy-feely in the souks but all the girls were American and pretty but they were intimidatingly tall so only one uncomfortable incident.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
Well, isn't that the point? Soft Brexit/cherry picking/special deals = no Brexit.
That depends entirely on what these ambiguous, ill-defined terms really mean.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Scandis and the Irish want 'soft Brexit', while Merkel's drift to the right with interceptor boats in the Med, burqa bans and god knows what else suggests that the meaning of FoM is fully negotiable.
Meanwhile, the EU have signed off another cash-for-migrants deal, this time with Mali.
How many countries are they going to end up paying 'protection' money to?
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Sharia law? Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
Not a cheap point at all. I don't think sharia law should be permitted in this country and have said so many times. Apart from anything else, it has been declared to be incompatible with the ECHR.
There are circumstances where parties can choose to arbitrate their contractual agreements according to a law other than English law, but there are limits and controls on this. That is very different from having an incompatible legal system (such as sharia) determine the rights and obligations of parties in a way which is contrary to English law or of having people living here subject to EU and not English law.
If you live here you comply with our laws. If you would prefer to live under a different legal system you go and live in the country which has your preferred system.
How curious, Don Brind omits to mention Precott Jnr failed attempts at finding a safe constituency for himself:
' Prescott is standing for selection to be Labour's prospective parliamentary candidate (PPC) for south London's Greenwich and Woolwich seat tomorrow, after its current MP, Labour's Nick Raynsford, announced he would stand down at the next election. It's the third time he has sought selection – in 2008, he stood for his father's Hull East seat, two years later he sought to become Labour's PPC in Weaver Vale, Runcorn. '
I'm probably going to regret posting this, but here goes..
snip......
A good post and one with which I sympathize. Likely however to fall on deaf ears sadly. The problem is not the result it is simply the time it will take to implement it and that is something none of us can control. I am reconciled to it but like many others face continuing uncertainty regarding the future of Brits abroad. Either way my future is settled to stay in Spain but there are many who I know will not have that option if the terms are very hard.
This is basically the issue, at a GE we vote for the Govt but one way or another the overall effect is at the margins. It makes a difference but largely life goes on. Brexit is different, it affects fundamentals of how we see ourselves and our place in the world. For some it directly affects their hopes, fears and prospects. The impact is far bigger and more divisive than any other vote in my lifetime. And if the winners create a car crash they will be held to account accordingly.
Some people may think that Brexit affects the fundamental of how we see ourselves and our place in the world. Personally, I don't. I am still European, still see myself as European and have no intention of retreating into a F*** You attitude to others overseas, regardless of whether or not my country is part of the EU.
I don't conflate the EU with Europe or European civilization or European values.
It is the height of arrogance for a political organization to claim to embody something as wide ranging and wonderful as European civilization.
Also, I think GE results can affect peoples hopes, fears and prospects in as real a way as the EU referendum. Think back to Thatcher's victories and how those impacted on large sections of the population. Their impact was big and pretty divisive, and I say this regardless of whether you approved or not of her impact.
I think one reason why it this referendum has been so divisive is because it has revealed fault lines in our society which the broad consensus of the last 30 years has broadly glossed over. That has come as a shock to many: both Leavers and Remainers.
It's a bit like a longstanding marriage which seems on the face of it to be more or less OK and still going strong after 28 years or so. Then one day the wife walks out and says she wants to bring it to an end. That will likely come as a shock to the husband, maybe even to the wife who's finally plucked up the courage to take action and certainly to the rest of the family. I'm pretty certain that such a step would end up dividing the family, with harsh things said on all sides.
How curious, Don Brind omits to mention Precott Jnr failed attempts at finding a safe constituency for himself:
' Prescott is standing for selection to be Labour's prospective parliamentary candidate (PPC) for south London's Greenwich and Woolwich seat tomorrow, after its current MP, Labour's Nick Raynsford, announced he would stand down at the next election. It's the third time he has sought selection – in 2008, he stood for his father's Hull East seat, two years later he sought to become Labour's PPC in Weaver Vale, Runcorn. '
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
That's why I say "apparently". One would have to see the detail. But I don't trust Barnier on this. This appears to me as if it could be the sting in the tail of the proposal that British citizens could, post-Brexit, continue to have EU citizenship.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet, and this is probably going to be our last quiet Christmas run-up for a fair few years.
Yet the lights are starting to get to him, and he's realising that more parcels than usual are coming through the door. I'm worried he'll understand within the next twelve days ...
A friend's son, the same age, is apparently waking up every morning asking if it's Christmas yet.
Oh, and Merry Christmas.
I get "I'm cold. Can we go to California today?" Every morning
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Sharia law? Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
There was a fascinating programme on Radio 4 at 5pm last night (only caught half of it) about 2 British women trying to get divorced from their Haredi (?spelling) husbands. Deeply deeply troubling.
I rarely FPT myself - but frankly, I've had a total skinful of liberal men on PB and elsewhere handwaving waving the cultural behaviour that's been imported by no knowledge nitwits, virtue signalling to stroke their own egos. You'd never accept this impinging on your daily lives. Ever. Oh, and have a burkah - black or maybe sky blue.
TBH, my entire experience of Morocco was hmm bar buying a nice camel leather handbag.
I'm a tough bird, and the misogyny/grabby behaviour was appalling. My handful of female fellow Landies were left so intimidated that they gave me shopping lists as they couldn't cope with the local men.
I was leered at/asked for sex/grabbed walking down the street for merely being white. I was covered head to foot and followed everywhere by creepy men/my chest commented on/assumed to be a prostitute.
I was on rural Morocco/Algerian
[Snipped]
This isn't tourist stuff - it's alternative life - anyone with a spec of knowledge of this culture has held up their hands and said WTF?
I am sure that it was just locker room behaviour, nothing wrong with a little pussy grabbing is there?
If you'd ever been the victim of sexual assault - and I have - you'd never say something like that.
I am sick to the back teeth of men, or indeed anyone, demeaning women's experience in this way. It is awful behavior; it happens far far too often; it is excused far too often. It's not locker room behaviour or amusing or something we should have to just put up with or laugh of, even though we have to do that just to get on with our lives. It's not a sideshow or an adjunct to more serious crimes. Sexual assault of women is a serious crime. And it happens to all women everywhere, whether its women in war zones, women out celebrating at night, or young girls in Africa, going to school and forced to provide sexual favours to get good marks or young vulnerable girls groomed by the manipulative and ignored by the powerful because they don't count or are not seen as "nice girls".
Welcome to our world, chaps. It's repellent and it needs to stop. A man who treats a woman like a piece of meat, with a lack of respect and courtesy, is no gentleman, no matter how much he may protest about honour.
My point was that Plato was quite happy to be an apologist for Trumps behaviour (hence locker room talk, and pussy grabbing), so there is a certain inconsistency. Irony seems to have been missed!
I have always condemned such misogynistic behaviour on here, whether in Morocco, Thailand, or Trump Tower.
I think every blind man on a galloping camel could see that....but then again there are some posters on here who have less vision than a blind man on a galloping camel.
Oh dear! I've just flicked through the thread and tomorrow I go to Marrakesh! Memo to self; buy reinforced breast protectors. Last time I was there I swapped my stop-watch for a toy camel which everyone thought was very generous.
It was ten years ago and I've still got the camel and I've never had a stop watch that's lasted ten years.
Thinking about it the locals were a bit touchy-feely in the souks but all the girls were American and pretty but they were intimidatingly tall so only one uncomfortable incident.
So "touchy feely" is okay if the girls are pretty?
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
I cannot see us agreeing to that.
It is indicative of an extraordinary mindset on the part of the EU. I can understand - even if I think there is a fair amount of hypocrisy and rigid dogma involved - the EU saying that if we want to be members of the Single Market, we have to accept FoM. But this is going further: it is seeking to extend EU jurisdiction over people living in another country, and a country which has chosen to leave the EU, precisely because it does not want to be subject to EU jurisdiction. It does show a tin ear for why so many people in the UK decided they'd had enough of it.
Are EU citizens living in the US subject to EU law? Or those in Africa? Or in Japan? Or indeed anywhere else? If not, why should EU citizens choosing to live in this particular non-EU state have these special rights?
Please, Please, Please, can we just privatise the last remaining 350 ish 'crown post offices' to make them like the other 11,400 post offices, because:
1) The quality of the serve they provide to the public will rise to the level of the non government owned post office.
2) The tax payer will not have to fund the loss they make every year,
3) we can reduce the national debt by a tiny bit.
4) and best of all, The bloody Trade Unions, will stop messing everybody's life about just to satisfy some vanity project/damage the governments blackmail thing!
This is madness - all the children that could be affected and the disruption generally.
The unions are out of control.
Time to outlaw all strikes in the railway industry
It is a great advert for smaller units and independent business as opposed to monolithic monopolies or state run nationalised 'services' (yes junior doctors, I'm looking at you).
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Sharia law? Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
There was a fascinating programme on Radio 4 at 5pm last night (only caught half of it) about 2 British women trying to get divorced from their Haredi (?spelling) husbands. Deeply deeply troubling.
This is madness - all the children that could be affected and the disruption generally.
The unions are out of control.
Time to outlaw all strikes in the railway industry
The Post Office is part of the railway industry?
I didn't express that too well but I believe the railways are vital to the UK and making it illegal for them to strike, just like the police etc, would be in the national interest.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
I cannot see us agreeing to that.
We might as well stay.
Either Barnier was badly mistranslated, or he must be in a pact with Farage to fan the anti-EU flames!
Can we just leave the 'Merry Christmas' stuff for another week please?
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet, and this is probably going to be our last quiet Christmas run-up for a fair few years.
Yet the lights are starting to get to him, and he's realising that more parcels than usual are coming through the door. I'm worried he'll understand within the next twelve days ...
A friend's son, the same age, is apparently waking up every morning asking if it's Christmas yet.
Oh, and Merry Christmas.
I get "I'm cold. Can we go to California today?" Every morning
Oh dear! I've just flicked through the thread and tomorrow I go to Marrakesh! Memo to self; buy reinforced breast protectors. Last time I was there I swapped my stop-watch for a toy camel which everyone thought was very generous.
It was ten years ago and I've still got the camel and I've never had a stop watch that's lasted ten years.
Thinking about it the locals were a bit touchy-feely in the souks but all the girls were American and pretty but they were intimidatingly tall so only one uncomfortable incident.
So "touchy feely" is okay if the girls are pretty?
I'm confused. Apparently it's necessary for all foreigners to adapt to all our customs and even mode of dress so if Moroccans tug pull and touch as they do I guess we better get used to it or 'bugger off' back to where where we came from (as the chief complainants would say if the boot was on the other foot.)
This is madness - all the children that could be affected and the disruption generally.
The unions are out of control.
Time to outlaw all strikes in the railway industry
It is a great advert for smaller units and independent business as opposed to monolithic monopolies or state run nationalised 'services' (yes junior doctors, I'm looking at you).
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
I cannot see us agreeing to that.
It is indicative of an extraordinary mindset on the part of the EU. I can understand - even if I think there is a fair amount of hypocrisy and rigid dogma involved - the EU saying that if we want to be members of the Single Market, we have to accept FoM. But this is going further: it is seeking to extend EU jurisdiction over people living in another country, and a country which has chosen to leave the EU, precisely because it does not want to be subject to EU jurisdiction. It does show a tin ear for why so many people in the UK decided they'd had enough of it.
Are EU citizens living in the US subject to EU law? Or those in Africa? Or in Japan? Or indeed anywhere else? If not, why should EU citizens choosing to live in this particular non-EU state have these special rights?
We haven't yet made a constitutionally valid decision to leave EU jurisdiction. Scotland has made it clear it wishes to stay within EU jurisdiction. If the EU side is showing more creativity about how to approach the negotiations before we even start it doesn't bode well for achieving any kind of Brexit.
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Sharia law? Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
There was a fascinating programme on Radio 4 at 5pm last night (only caught half of it) about 2 British women trying to get divorced from their Haredi (?spelling) husbands. Deeply deeply troubling.
He said that Hammond was quite explicit that the Government are moving towards this position.
Seems quite a significant statement
@GuardianAnushka: AND sd Brexit deal cd mean need for us and others to build "sign physical infrastructure at ports" & train folk for intensive customs checks
Please could someone translate that into English for me?
He means there isn't enough time to plan, design and build all the extra infrastructure, signage and services to all U.K. Ports and Airports, and train/recruit all the extra borders and customs staff, that would be needed to exit the customs union in less than 2 years.
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
So that will help provide work for people to do, creating the infrastructure & then staffing it. Maybe Brexit will be a bit of a boost.
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
Some airports (e.g. Luton) deal almost exclusively with arrivals from the EU/EEA. I suspect the same is true for many of our ports. And even in places like Heathrow where there is a lot of non-EEA traffic, there is going to need ot be a significant impact in border control capacity when free movement ends. All of which will add to the Brexit bill, of course.
Please, Please, Please, can we just privatise the last remaining 350 ish 'crown post offices' to make them like the other 11,400 post offices, because:
1) The quality of the serve they provide to the public will rise to the level of the non government owned post office.
2) The tax payer will not have to fund the loss they make every year,
3) we can reduce the national debt by a tiny bit.
4) and best of all, The bloody Trade Unions, will stop messing everybody's life about just to satisfy some vanity project/damage the governments blackmail thing!
I'm have trouble with the privatised post office. There's been a long-standing documentary about the postal service, featuring a postman and his black-and-white cat. Years ago under the nationalised service he just had his little red van, but now he has a helicopter and even a VTOL jet to deliver parcels.
A total waste of money, and I doubt he even has a pilot's licence.
I wouldn't mind it if he was actually competent, but he always bumbles, usually by helping the villagers do something totally unconnected with his job, like rescuing a sheep off the crags or putting a clock on the station.
The problem is with my memory I'm having trouble remembering his name. Can anyone help?
The idea apparently proposed by Barnier that EU citizens living in the UK should be subject to EU law is, to put it bluntly, a pile of pants.
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Does he really say that?
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
Apparently he has proposed it, at least according to the Telegraph.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
I cannot see us agreeing to that.
It is indicative of an extraordinary mindset on the part of the EU. I can understand - even if I think there is a fair amount of hypocrisy and rigid dogma involved - the EU saying that if we want to be members of the Single Market, we have to accept FoM. But this is going further: it is seeking to extend EU jurisdiction over people living in another country, and a country which has chosen to leave the EU, precisely because it does not want to be subject to EU jurisdiction. It does show a tin ear for why so many people in the UK decided they'd had enough of it.
Are EU citizens living in the US subject to EU law? Or those in Africa? Or in Japan? Or indeed anywhere else? If not, why should EU citizens choosing to live in this particular non-EU state have these special rights?
Absolutely, and if EU citizens who dont like being under British jurisdiction then they know where the airports are. It's more likely to be one of the negotiating positions that they can drop easily and look like they are willing to compromise, even though the request is completely unreasonable.
Posties want to safeguard jobs, therefore decide to strike just before Christmas. Fuck off customers, accelerate decline of snail mail. Brilliant logic.
Please, Please, Please, can we just privatise the last remaining 350 ish 'crown post offices' to make them like the other 11,400 post offices, because:
1) The quality of the serve they provide to the public will rise to the level of the non government owned post office.
2) The tax payer will not have to fund the loss they make every year,
3) we can reduce the national debt by a tiny bit.
4) and best of all, The bloody Trade Unions, will stop messing everybody's life about just to satisfy some vanity project/damage the governments blackmail thing!
I'm have trouble with the privatised post office. There's been a long-standing documentary about the postal service, featuring a postman and his black-and-white cat. Years ago under the nationalised service he just had his little red van, but now he has a helicopter and even a VTOL jet to deliver parcels.
A total waste of money, and I doubt he even has a pilot's licence.
I wouldn't mind it if he was actually competent, but he always bumbles, usually by helping the villagers do something totally unconnected with his job, like rescuing a sheep off the crags or putting a clock on the station.
The problem is with my memory I'm having trouble remembering his name. Can anyone help?
Please, Please, Please, can we just privatise the last remaining 350 ish 'crown post offices' to make them like the other 11,400 post offices, because:
1) The quality of the serve they provide to the public will rise to the level of the non government owned post office.
2) The tax payer will not have to fund the loss they make every year,
3) we can reduce the national debt by a tiny bit.
4) and best of all, The bloody Trade Unions, will stop messing everybody's life about just to satisfy some vanity project/damage the governments blackmail thing!
I'm have trouble with the privatised post office. There's been a long-standing documentary about the postal service, featuring a postman and his black-and-white cat. Years ago under the nationalised service he just had his little red van, but now he has a helicopter and even a VTOL jet to deliver parcels.
A total waste of money, and I doubt he even has a pilot's licence.
I wouldn't mind it if he was actually competent, but he always bumbles, usually by helping the villagers do something totally unconnected with his job, like rescuing a sheep off the crags or putting a clock on the station.
The problem is with my memory I'm having trouble remembering his name. Can anyone help?
Sounds like Postman Pat.
That's it! The documentary was on when I was a child, and he hasn't aged a day. He must be on drugs, probably sent through the privatised postal service ...
This is madness - all the children that could be affected and the disruption generally.
The unions are out of control.
Time to outlaw all strikes in the railway industry
The Post Office is part of the railway industry?
I didn't express that too well but I believe the railways are vital to the UK and making it illegal for them to strike, just like the police etc, would be in the national interest.
Why not just advocate proscription of striking full stop. It's what you want Big G.
Comments
That was before the vote and we are cool and the gang now.
At work we all remainers and leavers alike just shrugged and got on with life.
In all honesty- if this strains friendships it says more about them them it does about you.
Anyway, seasons greetings!
I have always condemned such misogynistic behaviour on here, whether in Morocco, Thailand, or Trump Tower.
Hammonds comment today to the Treasury Select Committee about 'more thoughtful politicians' is just what is needed as there will not be a soft Brexit nor a hard Brexit though whatever Brexit there is free movement of people will have to be addressed, anything less would betray a large part of the 52%
Not because I've morphed into Scrooge, but because my little 'un hasn't quite realised what Christmas means yet, and this is probably going to be our last quiet Christmas run-up for a fair few years.
Yet the lights are starting to get to him, and he's realising that more parcels than usual are coming through the door. I'm worried he'll understand within the next twelve days ...
A friend's son, the same age, is apparently waking up every morning asking if it's Christmas yet.
Oh, and Merry Christmas.
Lets do some next leader stuff for a bit!
In other words we are more likely to get a temporary customs arrangement if it is a stepping stone to a permanent one than if we are hoping to do something different later.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38294661
We can only adjust successfully to so much change in that timeframe.
The Treaty of Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
We all need to calm down and wait for the Supreme Court in the new year
I always read your posts with great interest and would like to wish both you and your family a happy and peaceful Christmas 2016
But how do the ports & airports manage with people/stuff entering from non-EU places at the moment? Some of the infrastructure/staff must be in place already, it needs expanding rather than start-from-scratch, surely?
I'm not sure if I should admit this, as it might constitute some form of cruel and unusual punishment, but I often read PB posts out to him.
Well, they say you should read to your child, and I get a little fed up with 'Bear Hunt' (*), 'Ten in a bed' (**) and 'Will and Fitz, the Cambridge Cats'.
(*) I prefer the parody 'We're going on a bar hunt'
(**) Which might read as a particularly salacious tabloid story about a Tory MP.
You and I have had our moments but I treat all exchanges as taking place under internet rules. We mean what we say but there is an Internet element that would not be present if we were to meet.
As to the content, I view Brexit and its proponents as do I Labour voters after a Labour victory. Deeply misguided, illogical and naive but pointing our views out to each other is I suppose that's why we're all on here.
But nonetheless sometimes men need reminding that what may seem like a story to you is too often real life for us.
And in any case I speak for myself. Plato is well able to speak for herself.
Restrictions on free movement should be easier as we're already outside Schengen and check every passport, although more staff may be needed for extra checks.
I wouldn't be surprised at a 5-7 year transition deal whilst we sort out our position with the WTO and negotiate new trade agreements during the transition period.
Restrictions on free movement should be easier as we're already outside Schengen and check every passport, although more staff may be needed for extra checks.
I wouldn't be surprised at a 5-7 year transition deal whilst we sort out our position with the WTO and negotiate new trade agreements during the transition period.
You are delicate petals aren't you leavers....., maybe you can find a safer space somewhere else where you won't be triggered.
I'm a big fan of point to point racing. In any election year it's standard form at most point to points for the paying customer to be treated to a five to ten minute spiel identifying anyone not fully signed up to hunting (in particular) and other country pursuits (more generally) as an enemy of our traditional way of life and exhorting the assembled masses that a vote for the Tories is the only way that Country life can survive. I personally don't think it is a good way of treating your paying guests to shove party politics down their throats - and it does grate on me, especially when our pro hunting then LibDem MP was traduced along with the rest, but you just take it on the chin.
Mind you, since the 1990s when the culture wars around hunting took off, it's been noticeable that the great crowds of townies that used to attend a day at the local ptp races have declined massively - but that could be broader cultural change.
Richard Osman @richardosman 3h3 hours ago
Let's start a sweepstake on when Mike Pence becomes President. I'll take Feb 9th.
The funniest story I've come across, but can't remember what it was called. (A long time since I was reading it to small relatives.)
(edited to delete extra 'the')
If you live in a country, regardless of whether you are a national of another state, you are subject to that country's laws. If you want to be subject to EU law - and not English law - you should live in a country where EU law is the law of the land.
No self-respecting state can expect its law to be ousted in this way for some special class of inhabitants. The sovereign's writ runs in all parts of the kingdom - see, for instance, Henry II and Thomas Beckett
Ta ;-)
"It is important that ... we work for free international trade and to keep down protectionism," Ammitzboll said.
Apologies for the cheap point. But valid, I fear.
Everyone is subject to the laws of the country in which they are residing. (The Americans claim extraterritoriality in certain areas, but we can ignore that.)
It was ten years ago and I've still got the camel and I've never had a stop watch that's lasted ten years.
Thinking about it the locals were a bit touchy-feely in the souks but all the girls were American and pretty but they were intimidatingly tall so only one uncomfortable incident.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Scandis and the Irish want 'soft Brexit', while Merkel's drift to the right with interceptor boats in the Med, burqa bans and god knows what else suggests that the meaning of FoM is fully negotiable.
Meanwhile, the EU have signed off another cash-for-migrants deal, this time with Mali.
How many countries are they going to end up paying 'protection' money to?
There are circumstances where parties can choose to arbitrate their contractual agreements according to a law other than English law, but there are limits and controls on this. That is very different from having an incompatible legal system (such as sharia) determine the rights and obligations of parties in a way which is contrary to English law or of having people living here subject to EU and not English law.
If you live here you comply with our laws. If you would prefer to live under a different legal system you go and live in the country which has your preferred system.
' Prescott is standing for selection to be Labour's prospective parliamentary candidate (PPC) for south London's Greenwich and Woolwich seat tomorrow, after its current MP, Labour's Nick Raynsford, announced he would stand down at the next election. It's the third time he has sought selection – in 2008, he stood for his father's Hull East seat, two years later he sought to become Labour's PPC in Weaver Vale, Runcorn. '
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/29/prescott-blair-straw-next-generation-uk-politics
That's right, Prescott Jnr has been even less successful than Will Straw CBE.
I don't conflate the EU with Europe or European civilization or European values.
It is the height of arrogance for a political organization to claim to embody something as wide ranging and wonderful as European civilization.
Also, I think GE results can affect peoples hopes, fears and prospects in as real a way as the EU referendum. Think back to Thatcher's victories and how those impacted on large sections of the population. Their impact was big and pretty divisive, and I say this regardless of whether you approved or not of her impact.
I think one reason why it this referendum has been so divisive is because it has revealed fault lines in our society which the broad consensus of the last 30 years has broadly glossed over. That has come as a shock to many: both Leavers and Remainers.
It's a bit like a longstanding marriage which seems on the face of it to be more or less OK and still going strong after 28 years or so. Then one day the wife walks out and says she wants to bring it to an end. That will likely come as a shock to the husband, maybe even to the wife who's finally plucked up the courage to take action and certainly to the rest of the family. I'm pretty certain that such a step would end up dividing the family, with harsh things said on all sides.
"The radical idea - which is certain to be rejected by Britain - was set out at a meeting between Michel Barnier, the chief European Commission negotiator and officials from the 27 other EU member states, according to an EU diplomat familiar with the discussions.
"The European Commission legal service was of the view that a political declaration on the rights of EU citizens in the UK would not be enough and that EU law must be available to EU citizens after Brexit, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ," said the source."
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/808267208841428992
Lower Gwynedd Township, Penn. (Clinton+21, Obama +0) appears to be in serious danger of falling to the Dark Side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Gwynedd_Township,_Montgomery_County,_Pennsylvania …
In all seriousness, hurrah for the postie!
The unions are out of control.
Time to outlaw all strikes in the railway industry
Are EU citizens living in the US subject to EU law? Or those in Africa? Or in Japan? Or indeed anywhere else? If not, why should EU citizens choosing to live in this particular non-EU state have these special rights?
1) The quality of the serve they provide to the public will rise to the level of the non government owned post office.
2) The tax payer will not have to fund the loss they make every year,
3) we can reduce the national debt by a tiny bit.
4) and best of all, The bloody Trade Unions, will stop messing everybody's life about just to satisfy some vanity project/damage the governments blackmail thing!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-75361d40-67f0-4544-bb29-c9bee5b2251f
And yes, it's deeply troubling.
A total waste of money, and I doubt he even has a pilot's licence.
I wouldn't mind it if he was actually competent, but he always bumbles, usually by helping the villagers do something totally unconnected with his job, like rescuing a sheep off the crags or putting a clock on the station.
The problem is with my memory I'm having trouble remembering his name. Can anyone help?
As others have said, time for strike bans in key public services and infrastructure, in favour of arbitration.
Oh, and bring the army in next week to get the Christmas mail through. Seriously, do it.