Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
And if they row back they will be destroyed by Tory Leave voters leaving for UKIP.
Damned if they do, Damned if they don't.
They should have invoked Article 50.
The Tories have plenty of scope to gain additional seats from Labour, while Corbyn leads them.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Richmond voted 65/35 for remain.
And they've just elected an MP committed to voting against Article 50. Brexit remains a live issue.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Richmond voted 65/35 for remain.
So that's a swing from Remain to Leave of ~15% right? Clearly Brexit is going from strength to strength... (ducks)
Hmm, a remain candidate beating a leave candidate in a constituency where the remain leave vote was 65/35 isn't going to rewrite the history books. In fact in a by-election where the national party threw absolutely everything at it means the 2% victory margin was probably not as good as it could have been. Anyone making any judgements on the national picture based on a by-election in Richmond needs to have their head examined.
As you say, nobody should read too munch into this result. However, I think the LibDems have three things to be pleased about:
1. They won a by-election (for the first time in about a decade)! They'll have got some good headlines, and will doubt see a bunch of new members join, and I'm sure there'll be a poll bounce as there was post Eastbourne.
2. A return of Labour tactical voting, albeit in a by-election scenario. Witney did not see tactical voting, Richmond did. There are a number of seats, mostly in SW London, where a return of Labour tactical voting makes the LDs competitive.
3. The "soft Brexit" argument resonates with some (Conservative) voters, particularly in wealthy suburbs.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the LDs edge into double digits in the next set of polls. But I could be wrong, of course.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
So who was this hard-right candidate who got thrashed in Richmond? The voters had a choice of 'nice' candidates.
Yep, pollution is for the plebs, not nice people like us.
Mainstream media is not giving anywhere near the same coverage to the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election as they have to the Witney and Richmond by-elections.
Does this reflect the claim that the media are the London liberal elite and out of touch with the population out in the country?
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Richmond voted 65/35 for remain.
Yes considering she got less than a 2000 vote lead rather disappointing for the remainians . The way some are rattling on you would have thought Onley got 65% of the vote
"Looks like Leave.EU have hired Eric Bristow to write their press releases."
Because saying that a hard Remain constituency voting for a Remain candidate proves the rejection of Brexit is madness, is exactly comparable to telling victims of child sexual abuse that they are a bunch of wimps.
Mainstream media is not giving anywhere near the same coverage to the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election as they have to the Witney and Richmond by-elections.
Does this reflect the claim that the media are the London liberal elite and out of touch with the population out in the country?
@hugorifkind: Richmond media storm. It's just so very exciting for us all to finally have some news from somewhere we're definitely not out of touch with.
The LDs of course. Good publicity and they look relevant in certain areas.
But also Ukip. I posted earlier this week that I couldn't see the point of them anymore, but the triumphalism will probably harden support for Ukip. There is a very slight risk that the Establishment might be shameless enough to try and ignore the referendum vote. A disaster for all concerned. But even raising the possibility will give them a boost. Doubtful if it's enough to trouble the Tories in Sleaford but who knows in this febrile atmosphere?
Who loses? The Tories obviously, and to a lesser degree Labour. Showing you are irrelevant isn't a good tactic.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Wonder what would happen if there was a by election in a strong LEAVE area like Sunderland or Corby?
Although I assume Stark Dawning was joking it will be interesting to see how the narrative changes if the Libs dont win Sleaford (as seems incredibly likely). With high expectations now surely by their own logic if they don't get at least a close 2nd then Hard Brexit is back on.
The media control the narrative. Any result will be spun as bad for Brexit.
And we're not listening anymore to TV pundit opinions. They've comprehensively lost their credibility here and in US.
Joe Public aren't stupid.
In the US maybe, not over here. For most people their understanding of politics is based solely on what the bloke on the Beeb said.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
First let's see what happens in the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election next week.
Much as I would reget it I think we'll see the government's majority reduced to 8.
Paying into the single market, while economically successful is politically suicidal. Not paying in achieves the opposite outcomes.
Yup, her least-bad option is to delay.
The longer the delay, the longer the referendum wound festers.
If May had invoked Article 50 on the day she got selected as Tory leader they would not have been in this terrible position of being "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
Cameron was right, the longer you delay the greater the damage.
By springtime the government may be so damaged it may collapse in acrimony and bickering.
They'd still have the same problem, which is that ultimately they have to sign some kind of deal, or alternatively walk away without signing one. This is the point when the wave form collapses and the voters look in the box and notice she's killed their cat.
The obvious political solution is not to let them see what's in the box until June, 2020.
Thinking about 2020 and the LibDems and SNP holding the balance of power, I think the LibDem stance should be "No Coalition" with any party.
"We will consider a supply and confidence arrangement with the largest party or coalition of parties but we will only support legislation that we agree with and vote against any that we don't. Period."
I think you might be getting a little carried away...
I think it's a realistic view at this moment.
It's clear that on present course the Tories will gain a large share of the UKIP vote but will lose seats in Remain areas to the LD.
If they reverse course they will keep their seats in Remain areas but they will be in danger of losing seats in Leave areas as their voters move to UKIP.
The Referendum result has now developed into a wedge issue that splits the Tory party, congrats to the PM for waiting too long, that mess is her fault.
A very reasonable analysis, but one that makes an assumption. We've just seen remain voters switching party to support a candidate who is going to support the remain policy. Leave voters might behave in the same way. I don't think that there is any evidence of them doing so yet.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
First let's see what happens in the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election next week.
Much as I would reget it I think we'll see the government's majority reduced to 8.
Mainstream media is not giving anywhere near the same coverage to the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election as they have to the Witney and Richmond by-elections.
Does this reflect the claim that the media are the London liberal elite and out of touch with the population out in the country?
Possibly half of the London based media bigwigs live in Richmond.
"Yes considering she got less than a 2000 vote lead rather disappointing for the remainians . The way some are rattling on you would have thought Onley got 65% of the vote"
Yep, to put into perspective, Lib Dems, Green & Labour combined got fewer votes than in 1983, 1997, 2001, or 2005.
The question is, when the by-election was being presented a clear referendum on Brexit, in a constituency that voted 70% for Remain, why did so many voters vote for Brexit Goldsmith?
Clearly this proves (I'm employing typical Remainian logic here!) that even in Remain constituencies there is now a huge amount of support for Brexit - Olney couldn't even reach 50% of the vote. This proves that national support for Brexit is stronger than ever. Great result for Brexit!
Had Goldsmith collapsed to 30% or 35%, this would be good for Remain. But over 45% in a 70% Remain constituency? Get real.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
First let's see what happens in the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election next week.
Easy Tory win in a illiberal Closed heartland. Anything else would be another unmitigated disaster for the bumpkins.
A good example of the left snearing at the ordinary working folk of this country
Not so. Ordinary working folk is not a synonym for close-minded nativists – as much as you and your ilk pretend it is.
Paying into the single market, while economically successful is politically suicidal. Not paying in achieves the opposite outcomes.
Yup, her least-bad option is to delay.
The longer the delay, the longer the referendum wound festers.
If May had invoked Article 50 on the day she got selected as Tory leader they would not have been in this terrible position of being "damned if they do, damned if they don't".
Cameron was right, the longer you delay the greater the damage.
By springtime the government may be so damaged it may collapse in acrimony and bickering.
They'd still have the same problem, which is that ultimately they have to sign some kind of deal, or alternatively walk away without signing one. This is the point when the wave form collapses and the voters look in the box and notice she's killed their cat.
The obvious political solution is not to let them see what's in the box until June, 2020.
"Yes considering she got less than a 2000 vote lead rather disappointing for the remainians . The way some are rattling on you would have thought Onley got 65% of the vote"
Yep, to put into perspective, Lib Dems, Green & Labour combined got fewer votes than in 1983, 1997, 2001, or 2005.
The question is, when the by-election was being presented a clear referendum on Brexit, in a constituency that voted 70% for Remain, why did so many voters vote for Brexit Goldsmith?
Clearly this proves (I'm employing typical Remainian logic here!) that even in Remain constituencies there is now a huge amount of support for Brexit - Olney couldn't even reach 50% of the vote. This proves that national support for Brexit is stronger than ever. Great result for Brexit!
Had Goldsmith collapsed to 30% or 35%, this would be good for Remain. But over 45% in a 70% Remain constituency? Get real.
LOL. Your poster boy had a whopping great majority.
"Ordinary working folk is not a synonym for close-minded nativists – as much as you and your ilk pretend it is."
Let's see
"The report from the Centre for Social Justice and Legatum Institute found that people in the “AB” class – the middle and upper classes - were the only group which had a majority voting to Remain at the June 23 referendum.
The majority of people in all the other income groups - described as C1, C2, D and E - all voted to leave, the report said. While 57 per cent of voters in the more affluent AB group voted to remain, the proportion in the other four groups was 36 per cent."
It said: "At every level of earning there is a direct correlation between household income and your likelihood to vote for leaving the EU — 62 per cent of those with income of less than £20,000 voted to leave, but that percentage falls in steady increments until, by an income of £60,000, that percentage was just 35 per cent."
Oh wait, yes it is.
The poor wanted out, because they gain nothing from hordes of immigrants, the rich wanted in, because they beenfit hugely.
Once aspect not focussed upon on the result. Prominent Leaver sees no incumbency boost.
He saw one over the 35% leave vote in Richmond, over performed it by 10%. If that is the new national divide, as the Lib Dems seem to be running with, then this is probably not a good result for remain, but a good result for the Lib Dems.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
First let's see what happens in the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election next week.
Easy Tory win in a illiberal Closed heartland. Anything else would be another unmitigated disaster for the bumpkins.
A good example of the left snearing at the ordinary working folk of this country
Not so. Ordinary working folk is not a synonym for close-minded nativists – as much as you and your ilk pretend it is.
There's nothing closed-minded about rejecting your beloved EU.
Hmm, a remain candidate beating a leave candidate in a constituency where the remain leave vote was 65/35 isn't going to rewrite the history books. In fact in a by-election where the national party threw absolutely everything at it means the 2% victory margin was probably not as good as it could have been. Anyone making any judgements on the national picture based on a by-election in Richmond needs to have their head examined.
As you say, nobody should read too munch into this result. However, I think the LibDems have three things to be pleased about:
1. They won a by-election (for the first time in about a decade)! They'll have got some good headlines, and will doubt see a bunch of new members join, and I'm sure there'll be a poll bounce as there was post Eastbourne.
2. A return of Labour tactical voting, albeit in a by-election scenario. Witney did not see tactical voting, Richmond did. There are a number of seats, mostly in SW London, where a return of Labour tactical voting makes the LDs competitive.
3. The "soft Brexit" argument resonates with some (Conservative) voters, particularly in wealthy suburbs.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the LDs edge into double digits in the next set of polls. But I could be wrong, of course.
I'd agree with that. Indeed, it's possible that the Lib Dems should already be in double figures if the downweighting of their vote-recall is a consequence of misremembering.
One point of pedantry: Richmond was their first *gain* in a little over a decade but they did hold Eastleigh after Huhne resigned (only to then lose it at the general election).
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
"Ordinary working folk is not a synonym for close-minded nativists – as much as you and your ilk pretend it is."
Let's see
"The report from the Centre for Social Justice and Legatum Institute found that people in the “AB” class – the middle and upper classes - were the only group which had a majority voting to Remain at the June 23 referendum.
The majority of people in all the other income groups - described as C1, C2, D and E - all voted to leave, the report said. While 57 per cent of voters in the more affluent AB group voted to remain, the proportion in the other four groups was 36 per cent."
It said: "At every level of earning there is a direct correlation between household income and your likelihood to vote for leaving the EU — 62 per cent of those with income of less than £20,000 voted to leave, but that percentage falls in steady increments until, by an income of £60,000, that percentage was just 35 per cent."
Oh wait, yes it is.
The poor wanted out, because they gain nothing from hordes of immigrants, the rich wanted in, because they beenfit hugely.
The fact that this report calls ABs the "middle and upper classes" should immediately act as a warning.
A is socioeconomic group comprising professional workers (B is managerial workers) – it is not the landed gentry.
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
Interesting to note that the best guide to the by election result was the LibDems canvass returns, which were pretty accurate. Maybe we should not joke about LibDem bar charts as much in future.
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
A solid analysis.
Agreed. Electorally UKIP were always more likely to make headway in Labour areas, which is why they've never broken through in Westminster elections. In contrast the Lib Dems are a very real threat to the Tories in the home counties.
Several losers in last nights election. Two of the biggest being May and Corbyn. It's clear now there is a voting block who will vote on an anti Brexit ticket. This could be a bigger thorn in May's side than UKIP were for Cameron. Anyone watching Abbott's incoherence last night could see that Labour in their present form are dead. An irrelevant joke
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
Have you though of Syria - lovely and warm at this time of year.
Once aspect not focussed upon on the result. Prominent Leaver sees no incumbency boost.
Daves man screwed up
He's not Dave's man. He backed Leave.
There's a circle of hell reserved for those who betrayed thus.
Zac was an A lister like Mensch, Dave was a terrible judge of people
Just look at his choice for CoE
I might do an Osborne themed thread this Sunday just for you.
Which means I'll have to put my other thread on hold, it begins
'A threesome is every heterosexual man's fantasy, but like Brexit it has the potential to be a grave disappointment for those most looking forward to it.'
The problem for the hard-Right is that since June they've been running around asserting that the Brexit vote demonstrates a mass endorsement of every single one of their proclivities. That leaves them very exposed when democratic decisions don't go their way. What next? That the British public are the 'enemies of the people'?
Once aspect not focussed upon on the result. Prominent Leaver sees no incumbency boost.
Daves man screwed up
He's not Dave's man. He backed Leave.
There's a circle of hell reserved for those who betrayed thus.
Zac was an A lister like Mensch, Dave was a terrible judge of people
Just look at his choice for CoE
I might do an Osborne themed thread this Sunday just for you.
Which means I'll have to put my other thread on hold, it begins
'A threesome is every heterosexual man's fantasy, but like Brexit it has the potential to be a grave disappointment for those most looking forward to it.'
"He saw one over the 35% leave vote in Richmond, over performed it by 10%. If that is the new national divide, as the Lib Dems seem to be running with, then this is probably not a good result for remain, but a good result for the Lib Dems."
It's not that great for the Lib Dems.
We've just proved (in Witney) that a Remain majority was not enough to reject the Tories at the polls. The Tories won by a stonking 14.8% there in the face of a 53.7/46.3% Remain/Leave vote.
So the Remain vote needs to be closer to today's 70/30 Remain, which means this isn't really relevant anywhere outside of SW London.
Bonkers. Zac is a former editor of the Ecologist and author of The Constant Economy. How is defeating a green-conservative furthering action on climate change or environment?
"16. Imagine I’m doing something I’m not and then mock that imaginary thing with sarcasm as if it has anything to do with me.
17. Pretend you are too smart to be duped the way I have duped other people. Add sarcasm to make it sound smarter.
18. Signal that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance because my opinion makes you feel dumb and that violates your self-image as smart. Use the following structure to signal that you are in cognitive dissonance:
[Wow] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[OMG] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[LOL] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[Bruh] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[So…] + [misstatement of my opinion] + [sarcasm]
Importantly, do not include any rational argument or links to websites.
28. Use sarcasm instead of reason because you can’t tell the difference.
Another couple of observations. Zac is a loss to the Tory party, who have Climate Change deniers in their ranks. A Tory who is also an environmentalist is a rare thing. Those who dismiss the LibDems local government gains as 'parish council' wins should probably desist now.
I'd love to see the division and mutual anger subside at some point soon.
It's understandable, but triumphalism on one side exacerbates loss on the other - as intended. Encouraging denial, anger, grief etc.
Denial and anger on the other side encourages triumphalism on the winning side - an urge to rub faces in it. Which in its turn increases the loss on the other side, and... the cycle continues.
Both shouting "But they started it!"
"Democracy!" "Lies!"
Yes. But to the first: democracy is not a single vote where the will of the majority at a snapshot in time is imposed on the minority, like it or not. Democracy is government with the consent of the governed. We have been warned down the centuries to avoid the tyranny of the majority and thus we evolved the role of Her (or His) Majesty's Loyal Opposition. A voice that gainsayeth, that speaks for the minority, a light where darkness was decreed. A position to pressure the Government away from following an extreme in one direction, to limit the level at which majority rule can run into mob rule. So I'm not so unhappy with the direction Farron and the LDs have taken - pressuring the Government on behalf of the minority). They're able to take that role here as Labour have abandoned the field. Speaking for the 48% as well as those in the 52% who aren't happy with the idea of Hard Brexit.
And to the second - there was bullshit around both campaigns, unfortunately - Osborne and co were very careful to present as much as possible as horribly as possible. It is true that the Leave campaign were more blatant ("£350 million", "Turkey's about to join!") as well as aiming unpleasantly for the nasty side ("Look at all the brown people waiting to pour in!"), which had the side effect of tainting those many on the Leave side who weren't of that ilk. But for many, sovereignty was indeed the important element, and a soft Brexit could content these.
But we need to address the underlying issues. Globalisation has made us richer and pulled hundreds of millions out of starvation and true poverty - but caused real hurt and dislocation to some communities in the developed world. Automation has freed up resource to grow our economies in ways we'd never dreamed, creating businesses and jobs where we'd never have had them otherwise - but dislocated people out of jobs as well. Immigration has NOT cost lots of jobs nationwide - but HAS had an effect in certain areas and for certain demographics, as well as exacerbated the failures of Governments of all stripes to BUILD ENOUGH BLOODY HOUSES and infrastructure.
We need to look to address these. Things like Universal Basic Income, life-long education and training opportunities, more housing everywhere so it's easier to buy/rent and (importantly) move to where jobs may be, reviewing childhood education away from optimising for the last century or before and instead for a new world (Finland has had some interesting ideas recently). And so on.
Once aspect not focussed upon on the result. Prominent Leaver sees no incumbency boost.
Daves man screwed up
He's not Dave's man. He backed Leave.
There's a circle of hell reserved for those who betrayed thus.
Zac was an A lister like Mensch, Dave was a terrible judge of people
Just look at his choice for CoE
I might do an Osborne themed thread this Sunday just for you.
Which means I'll have to put my other thread on hold, it begins
'A threesome is every heterosexual man's fantasy, but like Brexit it has the potential to be a grave disappointment for those most looking forward to it.'
Bonkers. Zac is a former editor of the Ecologist and author of The Constant Economy. How is defeating a green-conservative furthering action on climate change or environment?
The EU referendum has made for strange bedfellows, but in this case the Greens in this country are more interested in furthering leftism than green policies. The EU is the ultimate leftist organisation in their eyes.
"The fact that this report calls ABs the "middle and upper classes" should immediately act as a warning.
A is socioeconomic group comprising professional workers (B is managerial workers) – it is not the landed gentry."
The landed gentry have been replaced by Greater London house owners. A stately pile of 100 acres in Lincolnshire is worth less than a terraced house owned by a London lawyer.
Another couple of observations. Zac is a loss to the Tory party, who have Climate Change deniers in their ranks. A Tory who is also an environmentalist is a rare thing. Those who dismiss the LibDems local government gains as 'parish council' wins should probably desist now.
I do find your avatar and 'logic' screen name informative. Anyone who doesn't agree with you on a subject is a 'denier'. How very Spanish Inquisition if we're going to play the hyperbole card.
That doesn't strike me as logical or fact based unless you're happy to dismiss those voices out of hand. There's no rational alternative argument made by you - you just throw them out as heresy.
"LOL. Your poster boy had a whopping great majority.
He got spanked."
Goldsmith is not really much of a poster boy. He represented people who drive Range Rovers but fret about global warming.
The zeitgeist is more for people who eat red meat and drink beer and say 'burn coal', not effete types like Zac.
Have you considering campaigning for a white, red-meat eating, coal-burning, non-feminine homeland for your salt-of-the-earth people, somewhere in West Yorkshire?
"Ordinary working folk is not a synonym for close-minded nativists – as much as you and your ilk pretend it is."
Let's see
"The report from the Centre for Social Justice and Legatum Institute found that people in the “AB” class – the middle and upper classes - were the only group which had a majority voting to Remain at the June 23 referendum.
The majority of people in all the other income groups - described as C1, C2, D and E - all voted to leave, the report said. While 57 per cent of voters in the more affluent AB group voted to remain, the proportion in the other four groups was 36 per cent."
It said: "At every level of earning there is a direct correlation between household income and your likelihood to vote for leaving the EU — 62 per cent of those with income of less than £20,000 voted to leave, but that percentage falls in steady increments until, by an income of £60,000, that percentage was just 35 per cent."
Oh wait, yes it is.
The poor wanted out, because they gain nothing from hordes of immigrants, the rich wanted in, because they beenfit hugely.
The fact that this report calls ABs the "middle and upper classes" should immediately act as a warning.
A is socioeconomic group comprising professional workers (B is managerial workers) – it is not the landed gentry.
Landed gentry are A's though, to the extent that they fit in the model. So I don't think it's unreasonable to describe AB as upper and middle classes. Though unless you're talking about total income or wealth or the like, the size of the true upper class is so small as to be pretty much irrelevant to any stat.
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Wonder what would happen if there was a by election in a strong LEAVE area like Sunderland or Corby?
Life doesn't begin and end in London... Despite what multi-millionaire Londoners think.
or Sleaford & North Hykeham? We will find out next Thursday.
The EU referendum has made for strange bedfellows, but in this case the Greens in this country are more interested in furthering leftism than green policies. The EU is the ultimate leftist organisation in their eyes.
A spectacularly blind comment. This is the Green Party's position on Europe:
We recognise the value of the original goal of the founders of the European Communities, who sought to remove the threat of another war between European states. This has been distorted by vested political and economic interests into a union dominated by economic interests, which lacks democratic control, and promotes the goals of multinational corporations which are interested in profit not people, and which runs counter to the professed core values of the Union.
Another mistake that the May administration is making is prioritising new homes for rental rather than new homes for purchase. This is a politically poor move and the government needs to seriously look at ways of boosting home ownership and curtailing private renting. I sold my flat to a family who wanted to move into a three bed in West London, the buyer told me he had to beat an overseas investor to get it in the end. Good for me because I probably got extra money out of it, but not good for that family who have taken on additional debt just to find somewhere to live.
I sold my flat to a family who wanted to move into a three bed in West London, the buyer told me he had to beat an overseas investor to get it in the end. Good for me because I probably got extra money out of it, but not good for that family who have taken on additional debt just to find somewhere to live.
Surely if it was your place to sell you wouldn't need to learn from the buyer who he was bidding against? If his debt bothered you that much you could have accepted less for it.
"16. Imagine I’m doing something I’m not and then mock that imaginary thing with sarcasm as if it has anything to do with me.
17. Pretend you are too smart to be duped the way I have duped other people. Add sarcasm to make it sound smarter.
18. Signal that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance because my opinion makes you feel dumb and that violates your self-image as smart. Use the following structure to signal that you are in cognitive dissonance:
[Wow] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[OMG] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[LOL] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[Bruh] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[So…] + [misstatement of my opinion] + [sarcasm]
Importantly, do not include any rational argument or links to websites.
28. Use sarcasm instead of reason because you can’t tell the difference.
I will update the list as I see new ones"
It's far easier to believe that you lost a vote because your opponents are "closed minded nativists" "bigots" etc. , than to accept that it might be down to your campaign, or what you were trying to sell to them.
I sold my flat to a family who wanted to move into a three bed in West London, the buyer told me he had to beat an overseas investor to get it in the end. Good for me because I probably got extra money out of it, but not good for that family who have taken on additional debt just to find somewhere to live.
Surely if it was your place to sell you wouldn't need to learn from the buyer who he was bidding against? If his debt bothered you that much you could have accepted less for it.
Sold through an agency, I didn't really know until everything was agreed and signed. I probably would have accepted a lower offer if the agency had said who the potential buyers were though.
Those who said the Lib Dems had no chance were ... wrong Those who criticised Lib Dem expectations management were ... wrong Those who scoffed at Lib Dem projections from canvas figures were .... wrong
Absolute fiasco for the forces of Brexit and the hard-Right. With Trump and his chiwawa Farage, the hard-Right thought they had liberalism on the run. The Richmond result has smashed that notion into a cocked hat and shown up 'populism' as a hollow mockery. Thankfully for May, despite her early flirtations with the politics of the asylum, it's not too late to row back. The Tories shouldn't need to be told this, but if ever there was a warning sign for the folly of toying with the hard-Right this is it.
Wonder what would happen if there was a by election in a strong LEAVE area like Sunderland or Corby?
Life doesn't begin and end in London... Despite what multi-millionaire Londoners think.
or Sleaford & North Hykeham? We will find out next Thursday.
Quite, UKIP only just behind Labour in third. Constituency voted Leave as did MP.
Thinking about 2020 and the LibDems and SNP holding the balance of power, I think the LibDem stance should be "No Coalition" with any party.
"We will consider a supply and confidence arrangement with the largest party or coalition of parties but we will only support legislation that we agree with and vote against any that we don't. Period."
I think you might be getting a little carried away...
I think it's a realistic view at this moment.
It's clear that on present course the Tories will gain a large share of the UKIP vote but will lose seats in Remain areas to the LD.
If they reverse course they will keep their seats in Remain areas but they will be in danger of losing seats in Leave areas as their voters move to UKIP.
The Referendum result has now developed into a wedge issue that splits the Tory party, congrats to the PM for waiting too long, that mess is her fault.
A very reasonable analysis, but one that makes an assumption. We've just seen remain voters switching party to support a candidate who is going to support the remain policy. Leave voters might behave in the same way. I don't think that there is any evidence of them doing so yet.
I'm told some Tory Leave voters voted LibDem yesterday because of concern and dissatisfaction with how the Government is handling this.
I sold my flat to a family who wanted to move into a three bed in West London, the buyer told me he had to beat an overseas investor to get it in the end. Good for me because I probably got extra money out of it, but not good for that family who have taken on additional debt just to find somewhere to live.
Surely if it was your place to sell you wouldn't need to learn from the buyer who he was bidding against? If his debt bothered you that much you could have accepted less for it.
Sold through an agency, I didn't really know until everything was agreed and signed. I probably would have accepted a lower offer if the agency had said who the potential buyers were though.
Interesting. I thought agents were legally obliged to pass on any offers to the vendor. Anyway it sounds like your best move was buying the house in the first place.
"Have you considering campaigning for a white, red-meat eating, coal-burning, non-feminine homeland for your salt-of-the-earth people, somewhere in West Yorkshire?"
There's one in Romford. He wins stonking majorities after capturing the seat from Labour. He is in tune with his voters. Goldsmith was, in general, the perfect candidate for the liberal Range Rover driver, but he went the wrong way on Brexit, for his particular constituency of millionaires (second highest incomes in the country)
I don't suppose for a minute that the likes of Tracy Brabin with her ridiculous tweets about diversity in a room full of men:
are in tune with her constituency. But for now the white working class areas still vote for people who despise them (e.g., Gordon Brown and Mrs. Duffy). It is not clear if at some point, as the number of minorities climbs in the UK, we will get a kind of US-style racial realignment (poor whites in the US voted Trump).
But for now these people are still represented by Tracy Brabin who thinks that a room full of men with identical beards represents 'diversity.
I've never been on the same side as UKIP, the BNP, the NF, the SDL, the Brittania Party and Britain First. What about you?
I have never been on the side of the petty Nationalists, including 'UKIP in kilts'
'List of endorsements in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014
Against independence
Registered political parties Britannica
Non-participant political parties Britain First British National Party United Kingdom Independence Party
Politicians David Coburn MEP Nigel Farage MEP
The following organisations and individuals registered with the Electoral Commission as supporting a No vote. Alistair McConnachie (Holocaust denier) Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland'
That's you, that is.
Btw, still waiting for the answer to my extremely easy quiz question.
I sold my flat to a family who wanted to move into a three bed in West London, the buyer told me he had to beat an overseas investor to get it in the end. Good for me because I probably got extra money out of it, but not good for that family who have taken on additional debt just to find somewhere to live.
Surely if it was your place to sell you wouldn't need to learn from the buyer who he was bidding against? If his debt bothered you that much you could have accepted less for it.
Sold through an agency, I didn't really know until everything was agreed and signed. I probably would have accepted a lower offer if the agency had said who the potential buyers were though.
Interesting. I thought agents were legally obliged to pass on any offers to the vendor.
They did, but didn't give any indication as to who was making the offers. If I had known one of the parties were investors I probably would have disregarded their offer.
The EU referendum has made for strange bedfellows, but in this case the Greens in this country are more interested in furthering leftism than green policies. The EU is the ultimate leftist organisation in their eyes.
A spectacularly blind comment. This is the Green Party's position on Europe:
We recognise the value of the original goal of the founders of the European Communities, who sought to remove the threat of another war between European states. This has been distorted by vested political and economic interests into a union dominated by economic interests, which lacks democratic control, and promotes the goals of multinational corporations which are interested in profit not people, and which runs counter to the professed core values of the Union.
So they stood down and endorsed the Lib Dems because?
Another couple of observations. Zac is a loss to the Tory party, who have Climate Change deniers in their ranks. A Tory who is also an environmentalist is a rare thing. Those who dismiss the LibDems local government gains as 'parish council' wins should probably desist now.
I do find your avatar and 'logic' screen name informative. Anyone who doesn't agree with you on a subject is a 'denier'. How very Spanish Inquisition if we're going to play the hyperbole card.
That doesn't strike me as logical or fact based unless you're happy to dismiss those voices out of hand. There's no rational alternative argument made by you - you just throw them out as heresy.
Anyone who denies something is a denier. I do engage with people who are prepared to argue logically, and sometimes with you.
Are you sure they are spelled like that? I've honestly never heard of them. You seem a good deal more worried about non-entities than is healthy.
Who are they? Another supposed influential political force with no power whatsoever, but bigged up as media bogeyman? It's pathetic clickbait compared to BLM sucking up that's been to the White House or Cameron endorsing the AFL. Both are hate groups clothed in politically correct anti-white citizen clothes.
Comments
1. They won a by-election (for the first time in about a decade)! They'll have got some good headlines, and will doubt see a bunch of new members join, and I'm sure there'll be a poll bounce as there was post Eastbourne.
2. A return of Labour tactical voting, albeit in a by-election scenario. Witney did not see tactical voting, Richmond did. There are a number of seats, mostly in SW London, where a return of Labour tactical voting makes the LDs competitive.
3. The "soft Brexit" argument resonates with some (Conservative) voters, particularly in wealthy suburbs.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the LDs edge into double digits in the next set of polls. But I could be wrong, of course.
Does this reflect the claim that the media are the London liberal elite and out of touch with the population out in the country?
Because saying that a hard Remain constituency voting for a Remain candidate proves the rejection of Brexit is madness, is exactly comparable to telling victims of child sexual abuse that they are a bunch of wimps.
Idiot.
Goldsmith had a national profile from being (a) a Goldsmith (b) a loser in a high-profile election just a few months ago, (c) an MP since 2010.
Nothing comparable in Sleaford.
The LDs of course. Good publicity and they look relevant in certain areas.
But also Ukip. I posted earlier this week that I couldn't see the point of them anymore, but the triumphalism will probably harden support for Ukip. There is a very slight risk that the Establishment might be shameless enough to try and ignore the referendum vote. A disaster for all concerned. But even raising the possibility will give them a boost. Doubtful if it's enough to trouble the Tories in Sleaford but who knows in this febrile atmosphere?
Who loses? The Tories obviously, and to a lesser degree Labour. Showing you are irrelevant isn't a good tactic.
Much as I would reget it I think we'll see the government's majority reduced to 8.
The obvious political solution is not to let them see what's in the box until June, 2020.
1) How many Leave voters voted for the 'Remain' candidate?
2) How many Remain voters voted for the 'Leave' candidate?
Yep, to put into perspective, Lib Dems, Green & Labour combined got fewer votes than in 1983, 1997, 2001, or 2005.
The question is, when the by-election was being presented a clear referendum on Brexit, in a constituency that voted 70% for Remain, why did so many voters vote for Brexit Goldsmith?
Clearly this proves (I'm employing typical Remainian logic here!) that even in Remain constituencies there is now a huge amount of support for Brexit - Olney couldn't even reach 50% of the vote. This proves that national support for Brexit is stronger than ever. Great result for Brexit!
Had Goldsmith collapsed to 30% or 35%, this would be good for Remain. But over 45% in a 70% Remain constituency? Get real.
The Conservatives, who held the seat, did not stand. Try to keep up.
Much as I would reget it I think we'll see the government's majority reduced to 8."
So you're backing UKIP to win there? Or?
There's a circle of hell reserved for those who betrayed thus.
https://twitter.com/BJGoldsmith/status/804586306827415552
Sounds like he's inherited Sir Jams' dignified & gracious affability in full measure.
He got spanked.
Let's see
"The report from the Centre for Social Justice and Legatum Institute found that people in the “AB” class – the middle and upper classes - were the only group which had a majority voting to Remain at the June 23 referendum.
The majority of people in all the other income groups - described as C1, C2, D and E - all voted to leave, the report said. While 57 per cent of voters in the more affluent AB group voted to remain, the proportion in the other four groups was 36 per cent."
It said: "At every level of earning there is a direct correlation between household income and your likelihood to vote for leaving the EU — 62 per cent of those with income of less than £20,000 voted to leave, but that percentage falls in steady increments until, by an income of £60,000, that percentage was just 35 per cent."
Oh wait, yes it is.
The poor wanted out, because they gain nothing from hordes of immigrants, the rich wanted in, because they beenfit hugely.
A wise and gentlemanly retraction.
One point of pedantry: Richmond was their first *gain* in a little over a decade but they did hold Eastleigh after Huhne resigned (only to then lose it at the general election).
So we have 17 million voters looking for a home with a gaping hole where the centre ground used to be........
He got spanked."
Goldsmith is not really much of a poster boy. He represented people who drive Range Rovers but fret about global warming.
The zeitgeist is more for people who eat red meat and drink beer and say 'burn coal', not effete types like Zac.
A is socioeconomic group comprising professional workers (B is managerial workers) – it is not the landed gentry.
Maybe we should not joke about LibDem bar charts as much in future.
Just look at his choice for CoE
Which means I'll have to put my other thread on hold, it begins
'A threesome is every heterosexual man's fantasy, but like Brexit it has the potential to be a grave disappointment for those most looking forward to it.'
It's not that great for the Lib Dems.
We've just proved (in Witney) that a Remain majority was not enough to reject the Tories at the polls. The Tories won by a stonking 14.8% there in the face of a 53.7/46.3% Remain/Leave vote.
So the Remain vote needs to be closer to today's 70/30 Remain, which means this isn't really relevant anywhere outside of SW London.
Zac couldn't even do that properly.
https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/804604852684865536
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152117093416/how-to-insult-me-on-twitter
Such as
"16. Imagine I’m doing something I’m not and then mock that imaginary thing with sarcasm as if it has anything to do with me.
17. Pretend you are too smart to be duped the way I have duped other people. Add sarcasm to make it sound smarter.
18. Signal that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance because my opinion makes you feel dumb and that violates your self-image as smart. Use the following structure to signal that you are in cognitive dissonance:
[Wow] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[OMG] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[LOL] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[Bruh] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[So…] + [misstatement of my opinion] + [sarcasm]
Importantly, do not include any rational argument or links to websites.
28. Use sarcasm instead of reason because you can’t tell the difference.
I will update the list as I see new ones"
Zac is a loss to the Tory party, who have Climate Change deniers in their ranks. A Tory who is also an environmentalist is a rare thing.
Those who dismiss the LibDems local government gains as 'parish council' wins should probably desist now.
It's understandable, but triumphalism on one side exacerbates loss on the other - as intended. Encouraging denial, anger, grief etc.
Denial and anger on the other side encourages triumphalism on the winning side - an urge to rub faces in it. Which in its turn increases the loss on the other side, and... the cycle continues.
Both shouting "But they started it!"
"Democracy!"
"Lies!"
Yes. But to the first: democracy is not a single vote where the will of the majority at a snapshot in time is imposed on the minority, like it or not. Democracy is government with the consent of the governed. We have been warned down the centuries to avoid the tyranny of the majority and thus we evolved the role of Her (or His) Majesty's Loyal Opposition. A voice that gainsayeth, that speaks for the minority, a light where darkness was decreed. A position to pressure the Government away from following an extreme in one direction, to limit the level at which majority rule can run into mob rule. So I'm not so unhappy with the direction Farron and the LDs have taken - pressuring the Government on behalf of the minority). They're able to take that role here as Labour have abandoned the field. Speaking for the 48% as well as those in the 52% who aren't happy with the idea of Hard Brexit.
And to the second - there was bullshit around both campaigns, unfortunately - Osborne and co were very careful to present as much as possible as horribly as possible. It is true that the Leave campaign were more blatant ("£350 million", "Turkey's about to join!") as well as aiming unpleasantly for the nasty side ("Look at all the brown people waiting to pour in!"), which had the side effect of tainting those many on the Leave side who weren't of that ilk. But for many, sovereignty was indeed the important element, and a soft Brexit could content these.
But we need to address the underlying issues. Globalisation has made us richer and pulled hundreds of millions out of starvation and true poverty - but caused real hurt and dislocation to some communities in the developed world. Automation has freed up resource to grow our economies in ways we'd never dreamed, creating businesses and jobs where we'd never have had them otherwise - but dislocated people out of jobs as well. Immigration has NOT cost lots of jobs nationwide - but HAS had an effect in certain areas and for certain demographics, as well as exacerbated the failures of Governments of all stripes to BUILD ENOUGH BLOODY HOUSES and infrastructure.
We need to look to address these. Things like Universal Basic Income, life-long education and training opportunities, more housing everywhere so it's easier to buy/rent and (importantly) move to where jobs may be, reviewing childhood education away from optimising for the last century or before and instead for a new world (Finland has had some interesting ideas recently). And so on.
A is socioeconomic group comprising professional workers (B is managerial workers) – it is not the landed gentry."
The landed gentry have been replaced by Greater London house owners. A stately pile of 100 acres in Lincolnshire is worth less than a terraced house owned by a London lawyer.
That doesn't strike me as logical or fact based unless you're happy to dismiss those voices out of hand. There's no rational alternative argument made by you - you just throw them out as heresy.
I've never been on the same side as UKIP, the BNP, the NF, the SDL, the Brittania Party and Britain First. What about you?
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html
We recognise the value of the original goal of the founders of the European Communities, who sought to remove the threat of another war between European states. This has been distorted by vested political and economic interests into a union dominated by economic interests, which lacks democratic control, and promotes the goals of multinational corporations which are interested in profit not people, and which runs counter to the professed core values of the Union.
Out out out !
Are you sure they are spelled like that? I've honestly never heard of them. You seem a good deal more worried about non-entities than is healthy.
Yes a lack of intelligence seems to be a common theme among the Brexit Hard Right.
Whereas the defining characteristic of their opponents is an utter lack of humility.
I find the Scott Adams list of predictable insults the most entertaining. Anyone with insufficient braincells resorts to these non-arguments.
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152117093416/how-to-insult-me-on-twitter
Such as
"16. Imagine I’m doing something I’m not and then mock that imaginary thing with sarcasm as if it has anything to do with me.
17. Pretend you are too smart to be duped the way I have duped other people. Add sarcasm to make it sound smarter.
18. Signal that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance because my opinion makes you feel dumb and that violates your self-image as smart. Use the following structure to signal that you are in cognitive dissonance:
[Wow] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[OMG] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[LOL] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[Bruh] + [sarcasm] and/or [Insult]
[So…] + [misstatement of my opinion] + [sarcasm]
Importantly, do not include any rational argument or links to websites.
28. Use sarcasm instead of reason because you can’t tell the difference.
I will update the list as I see new ones"
It's far easier to believe that you lost a vote because your opponents are "closed minded nativists" "bigots" etc. , than to accept that it might be down to your campaign, or what you were trying to sell to them.
Those who said the Lib Dems had no chance were ... wrong
Those who criticised Lib Dem expectations management were ... wrong
Those who scoffed at Lib Dem projections from canvas figures were .... wrong
There's one in Romford. He wins stonking majorities after capturing the seat from Labour. He is in tune with his voters. Goldsmith was, in general, the perfect candidate for the liberal Range Rover driver, but he went the wrong way on Brexit, for his particular constituency of millionaires (second highest incomes in the country)
I don't suppose for a minute that the likes of Tracy Brabin with her ridiculous tweets about diversity in a room full of men:
https://twitter.com/TracyBrabin/status/800119891441451008
are in tune with her constituency. But for now the white working class areas still vote for people who despise them (e.g., Gordon Brown and Mrs. Duffy). It is not clear if at some point, as the number of minorities climbs in the UK, we will get a kind of US-style racial realignment (poor whites in the US voted Trump).
But for now these people are still represented by Tracy Brabin who thinks that a room full of men with identical beards represents 'diversity.
Against independence
Registered political parties
Britannica
Non-participant political parties
Britain First
British National Party
United Kingdom Independence Party
Politicians
David Coburn MEP
Nigel Farage MEP
The following organisations and individuals registered with the Electoral Commission as supporting a No vote.
Alistair McConnachie (Holocaust denier)
Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland'
That's you, that is.
Btw, still waiting for the answer to my extremely easy quiz question.
https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/804671113297068032
I do engage with people who are prepared to argue logically, and sometimes with you.