Citizens of other EU countries living in the UK cannot be "bargaining chips" in Brexit negotiations, Tory leadership contender Andrea Leadsom has said. The UK's foreign secretary had said it would be "absurd" to guarantee a right to stay in the UK before a reciprocal deal was done for UK expats in the EU. Mrs Leadsom said the rights of EU people already in the UK to stay must be protected. Meanwhile, her candidacy has received the backing of Boris Johnson.
Labour’s most high profile Brexit supporter has called for an end to the uncertainty around the status of EU citizens in the UK following the referendum.
Gisela Stuart, who played a big role in the Vote Leave campaign, has said that the people from the EU living in Britain have been “left in limbo” since the Out vote in June. She argues that these citizens were told they would be able to stay by the Leave camp, and the Tories should not use them as “bargaining chips”.
Angie could strike a deal to remove the uncertainty but wont.
Tessa said lets remove the uncertainty
Angi says verpiss dich
I think the Germans, like everyone else, is going to prioritising their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Au contraire Robert
In every negotiation there are points both sides could agree from day one and which really all know will have to be conceded
residency is one
but know the EU has decided to make it a negotiton point at the expense of its own citizens
No. Both sides have chosen to do that. The UK Government could stop this being a bargaining chip straight away by saying that EU nationals (with the minimum term limit for those arriving recently) will be free to stay after Brexit. It does not need the EU to do anything at all.
Even if they said that it would be preempting negotiations if they wanted to make it only apply retrospectively. The only unilateral concession that would make sense would be to commit to keeping free movement with the EU post-Brexit, which they won't do for obvious political reasons.
All this spat shows is that nothing is on the table until we put everything on the table and pull the trigger on Article 50.
Citizens of other EU countries living in the UK cannot be "bargaining chips" in Brexit negotiations, Tory leadership contender Andrea Leadsom has said. The UK's foreign secretary had said it would be "absurd" to guarantee a right to stay in the UK before a reciprocal deal was done for UK expats in the EU. Mrs Leadsom said the rights of EU people already in the UK to stay must be protected. Meanwhile, her candidacy has received the backing of Boris Johnson.
Labour’s most high profile Brexit supporter has called for an end to the uncertainty around the status of EU citizens in the UK following the referendum.
Gisela Stuart, who played a big role in the Vote Leave campaign, has said that the people from the EU living in Britain have been “left in limbo” since the Out vote in June. She argues that these citizens were told they would be able to stay by the Leave camp, and the Tories should not use them as “bargaining chips”.
Angie could strike a deal to remove the uncertainty but wont.
Tessa said lets remove the uncertainty
Angi says verpiss dich
I think the Germans, like everyone else, is going to prioritising their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Au contraire Robert
In every negotiation there are points both sides could agree from day one and which really all know will have to be conceded
residency is one
but know the EU has decided to make it a negotiton point at the expense of its own citizens
No. Both sides have chosen to do that. The UK Government could stop this being a bargaining chip straight away by saying that EU nationals (with the minimum term limit for those arriving recently) will be free to stay after Brexit. It does not need the EU to do anything at all.
As a UK citizen living in Spain I'd not be happy with that unless reciprocity was guaranteed.
Citizens of other EU countries living in the UK cannot be "bargaining chips" in Brexit negotiations, Tory leadership contender Andrea Leadsom has said. The UK's foreign secretary had said it would be "absurd" to guarantee a right to stay in the UK before a reciprocal deal was done for UK expats in the EU. Mrs Leadsom said the rights of EU people already in the UK to stay must be protected. Meanwhile, her candidacy has received the backing of Boris Johnson.
Labour’s most high profile Brexit supporter has called for an end to the uncertainty around the status of EU citizens in the UK following the referendum.
Gisela Stuart, who played a big role in the Vote Leave campaign, has said that the people from the EU living in Britain have been “left in limbo” since the Out vote in June. She argues that these citizens were told they would be able to stay by the Leave camp, and the Tories should not use them as “bargaining chips”.
Angie could strike a deal to remove the uncertainty but wont.
Tessa said lets remove the uncertainty
Angi says verpiss dich
I think the Germans, like everyone else, is going to prioritising their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Au contraire Robert
In every negotiation there are points both sides could agree from day one and which really all know will have to be conceded
residency is one
but know the EU has decided to make it a negotiton point at the expense of its own citizens
No. Both sides have chosen to do that. The UK Government could stop this being a bargaining chip straight away by saying that EU nationals (with the minimum term limit for those arriving recently) will be free to stay after Brexit. It does not need the EU to do anything at all.
sorry it is bargining chip if the other side wont meet us half way as a good will gesture
"Read The Case For Mars or look up Mars Direct on the interweb. "
Have done and have done. I mentioned Dr Zubrin on here the other day.
I agree; once you can get some water and convert it to hydrogen, you can probably get more. The problem is getting it in the first place. There are a whole load of assumptions that we can't rely on until we land a probe in the right place with the right equipment to do the tests. And maybe not even then.
I can't help but worry that Musk is taking a little too much for granted, and that sending a BFS (his proposed spaceship) on a a one-way trip with a load of fuel before the first astronauts might be best (although you then have the problem of keeping the gasses inside from boiling off). It'd test the whole system to Mars, give the first astronauts fuel for their return, and also useful spares. But it'd cost.
In terms of energy the temperature differential between night and day might help with a daytime summer temperature of around 20 celsius and a night time temperature of around -70. Seems the perfect setting for using a TEG.
Surely it would have to be a radioactive TEG (i.e. an RTG, with the radioactivity providing the heat)? Personally I'd go for a Stiring engine, which NASA *was* developing for space. Stirling engines should be much more efficient, with the downside of a few moving parts that might break.
(Mr Dancer posted a video about Stirling engines the other day).
Not really. You only need an RTG where there is no natural heat differential to exploit. A standard TEG should be able to work with the temperature differentials seen on Mars.
I think the Germans, like everyone else, will prioritise their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Is there anyone in the world with more experience of leading very tough and consequential negotiations than Angela Merkel? If she wins reelection we will see the contradictions and delusions of the Brexit position systematically and meticulously exposed month by month.
I think the Germans, like everyone else, will prioritise their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Is there anyone in the world with more experience of leading very tough and consequential negotiations than Angela Merkel? If she wins reelection we will see the contradictions and delusions of the Brexit position systematically and meticulously exposed month by month.
Citizens of other EU countries living in the UK cannot be "bargaining chips" in Brexit negotiations, Tory leadership contender Andrea Leadsom has said. The UK's foreign secretary had said it would be "absurd" to guarantee a right to stay in the UK before a reciprocal deal was done for UK expats in the EU. Mrs Leadsom said the rights of EU people already in the UK to stay must be protected. Meanwhile, her candidacy has received the backing of Boris Johnson.
Labour’s most high profile Brexit supporter has called for an end to the uncertainty around the status of EU citizens in the UK following the referendum.
Gisela Stuart, who played a big role in the Vote Leave campaign, has said that the people from the EU living in Britain have been “left in limbo” since the Out vote in June. She argues that these citizens were told they would be able to stay by the Leave camp, and the Tories should not use them as “bargaining chips”.
Angie could strike a deal to remove the uncertainty but wont.
Tessa said lets remove the uncertainty
Angi says verpiss dich
I think the Germans, like everyone else, is going to prioritising their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Au contraire Robert
In every negotiation there are points both sides could agree from day one and which really all know will have to be conceded
residency is one
but know the EU has decided to make it a negotiton point at the expense of its own citizens
No. Both sides have chosen to do that. The UK Government could stop this being a bargaining chip straight away by saying that EU nationals (with the minimum term limit for those arriving recently) will be free to stay after Brexit. It does not need the EU to do anything at all.
And what stuff our citizens living overseas? Either an agreement has reciprocity or there is no agreement. Suggesting we end the uncertainty with a clean and simple reciprocal agreement that doesn't prejudge other discussions was not unreasonable.
Even if they said that it would be preempting negotiations if they wanted to make it only apply retrospectively. The only unilateral concession that would make sense would be to commit to keeping free movement with the EU post-Brexit, which they won't do for obvious political reasons.
All this spat shows is that nothing is on the table until we put everything on the table and pull the trigger on Article 50.
Not at all. Whilst I am personally in favour of free movement, it is blindingly obvious that one can reassure those already living here that their status will continue unchanged without extending that to anyone who comes here in the future.
There must be a variant of the Sun Tzu quotation that says if you wait long enough on an internet forum, the essential pettiness of your antagonists will come to the surface.
There must be a variant of the Sun Tzu quotation that says if you wait long enough on an internet forum, the essential pettiness of your antagonists will come to the surface.
it probably hasnt occurred to you that cuts both ways
May can't guarantee EU citizens their rights* here until our citizens in the EU are guaranteed theirs. Otherwise we'd be taken to the cleaners.
The EU can't do a deal on this alone and let the UK start salami slicing the negotiations or else it would be taken to the cleaners.
The reality is all ex pats on both sides are bargaining chips. Just as individuals jobs, rights and freedoms are bargaining chips. It's a negotiation about the future of people by people. Of course some of those people are bargaining chips. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.
Any member has the sovereign right to leave so I don't " blame " the UK for this. Though as we are unilaterally withdrawing it is our responsibility. We should be honest about it. We voted for it.
*Is anyone suggesting EU citizens here should keep *all* there current rights ? Voting ? Non discrimination vis a vis UK Citizens ? Benefits ? In the later case that would be more generous than Cameron's deal which we rejected. The whole point of the referendum result was to restore our right to treat EU citizens differently than we can now. All else is bed wetting by the victors.
I think the Germans, like everyone else, will prioritise their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Is there anyone in the world with more experience of leading very tough and consequential negotiations than Angela Merkel? If she wins reelection we will see the contradictions and delusions of the Brexit position systematically and meticulously exposed month by month.
I agree. I think May is up to it individually but here hand is all Jokers. If Muttie survives ( far from certain ) we'll be taken to the cleaners.
"Read The Case For Mars or look up Mars Direct on the interweb. "
Have done and have done. I mentioned Dr Zubrin on here the other day.
I agree; once you can get some water and convert it to hydrogen, you can probably get more. The problem is getting it in the first place. There are a whole load of assumptions that we can't rely on until we land a probe in the right place with the right equipment to do the tests. And maybe not even then.
I can't help but worry that Musk is taking a little too much for granted, and that sending a BFS (his proposed spaceship) on a a one-way trip with a load of fuel before the first astronauts might be best (although you then have the problem of keeping the gasses inside from boiling off). It'd test the whole system to Mars, give the first astronauts fuel for their return, and also useful spares. But it'd cost.
In terms of energy the temperature differential between night and day might help with a daytime summer temperature of around 20 celsius and a night time temperature of around -70. Seems the perfect setting for using a TEG.
Surely it would have to be a radioactive TEG (i.e. an RTG, with the radioactivity providing the heat)? Personally I'd go for a Stiring engine, which NASA *was* developing for space. Stirling engines should be much more efficient, with the downside of a few moving parts that might break.
(Mr Dancer posted a video about Stirling engines the other day).
Not really. You only need an RTG where there is no natural heat differential to exploit. A standard TEG should be able to work with the temperature differentials seen on Mars.
Hmmm. Surely there are two problems: you have to 'store' the heat or cold for half a day until the opposite temperature extreme, to get a maximum temperature gradient and therefore power. Secondly, TEGs and RTGs are very inefficient; the radioactive ones in spacecraft run between 850 degrees C (the radioactivity) and the low temperature of space, and even then generate only a small amount of power (though for a very long time).
OMG I can now watch netflix offline. Other than Trump face planting from the top step of his jet into a pile of horseshit and hornets, today couldn't get any better*.
The whole point of the referendum result was to restore our right to treat EU citizens differently than we can now. All else is bed wetting by the victors.
Citizens of other EU countries living in the UK cannot be "bargaining chips" in Brexit negotiations, Tory leadership contender Andrea Leadsom has said. The UK's foreign secretary had said it would be "absurd" to guarantee a right to stay in the UK before a reciprocal deal was done for UK expats in the EU. Mrs Leadsom said the rights of EU people already in the UK to stay must be protected. Meanwhile, her candidacy has received the backing of Boris Johnson.
Labour’s most high profile Brexit supporter has called for an end to the uncertainty around the status of EU citizens in the UK following the referendum.
Gisela Stuart, who played a big role in the Vote Leave campaign, has said that the people from the EU living in Britain have been “left in limbo” since the Out vote in June. She argues that these citizens were told they would be able to stay by the Leave camp, and the Tories should not use them as “bargaining chips”.
Angie could strike a deal to remove the uncertainty but wont.
Tessa said lets remove the uncertainty
Angi says verpiss dich
I think the Germans, like everyone else, is going to prioritising their own interests in the coming negotiations. It's hard to find that offensive.
Au contraire Robert
In every negotiation there are points both sides could agree from day one and which really all know will have to be conceded
residency is one
but know the EU has decided to make it a negotiton point at the expense of its own citizens
No. Both sides have chosen to do that. The UK Government could stop this being a bargaining chip straight away by saying that EU nationals (with the minimum term limit for those arriving recently) will be free to stay after Brexit. It does not need the EU to do anything at all.
As a UK citizen living in Spain I'd not be happy with that unless reciprocity was guaranteed.
I totally agree it would be very unwise.
Nothing wrong with the approach of saying - at the negotiating table or ahead of it - that we'd like to ensure EU nationals' freedom to stay but it must depend on reciprocal agreements. If all the other EU states feel the same, Bingo, no problem, next item please.
Comments
All this spat shows is that nothing is on the table until we put everything on the table and pull the trigger on Article 50.
this elusive influence just doesnt exist
spend the money on something usefil
personally Id close oxford uni
hes fucking Mekel as we speak
NEW THREAD
The EU can't do a deal on this alone and let the UK start salami slicing the negotiations or else it would be taken to the cleaners.
The reality is all ex pats on both sides are bargaining chips. Just as individuals jobs, rights and freedoms are bargaining chips. It's a negotiation about the future of people by people. Of course some of those people are bargaining chips. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.
Any member has the sovereign right to leave so I don't " blame " the UK for this. Though as we are unilaterally withdrawing it is our responsibility. We should be honest about it. We voted for it.
*Is anyone suggesting EU citizens here should keep *all* there current rights ? Voting ? Non discrimination vis a vis UK Citizens ? Benefits ? In the later case that would be more generous than Cameron's deal which we rejected. The whole point of the referendum result was to restore our right to treat EU citizens differently than we can now. All else is bed wetting by the victors.
But IANAE.
* I may have insufficient imagination
Nothing wrong with the approach of saying - at the negotiating table or ahead of it - that we'd like to ensure EU nationals' freedom to stay but it must depend on reciprocal agreements. If all the other EU states feel the same, Bingo, no problem, next item please.
(edited to add: good evening, everyone)
About 1/2 or so will trudge to the polls and vote Labour (Or will have done so via postal already), the rest won't bother.