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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » DPP considering complaint that the LEAVE campaigns misled vote

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited November 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB Do you specifically need him to win by 328+ ECVs though, I mean won't 290 ECVs work just as well for you ?

    Anything above 269ECVs for the Donald and I'm going to Fiji with my gf in February paid for by the punters on BF. Anything less and I'll break even. I had a fairly large green position on Hillary that I built up in the primaries when she was wobbling against Bernie, I spent it all on Donald!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    Andrew said:

    Looks like we go into polling day with Trump never having got above 42% - and that even with Johnson's steady collapse over the last 3 months.

    There are plenty of 4-way polls with him above 42%.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    The policy, in black and white, was £100m. It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.

    The policy, in red and white, was £350m

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/watch-vote-leaves-dom-cummings-is-grilled-by-andrew-tyrie-this-sounds-like-aladdins-cave-to-me/

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784

    JackW said:
    Jack - have you see the Emerson poll with a 7 point lead for Trump in Ohio? I broadly agree with your ARSE except I think Trump will win Ohio and Maine 2.
    Emerson are a little suspect: they are a landline only pollster who don't call mobile phones.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    nunu said:

    justin124 said:

    West Virginia was formerly a very reliable Democrat state until Gore lost there in 2000. Before that time it only went Republican in landslide years such as 1984 and 1972. Nowadays it is seen as a very strong Republican state. What accounts for the sudden change there?
    Likewise Illinois was for many years a crucial Swing state - yet since 1992 it has been pretty well writen off by the Republicans.

    More polarized electorate? W.Virgina's economy was very coal based so I'm guessing talk of dealing with climate change put them off, Gore is a big climate change campaigner. Also dems have a demographic problem of their own which is they are losing wwc votes very fast.
    The climate change factor surely would have been personal to Gore rather than Democrats in general It seems odd that Obama lost heavily in West Virginia yet Dukakis carried it in 1988 as did Carter in 1980!
    No, because many Republicans in congress deny it is caused by humans see Trump's remarks that its just a hoax by the Chinese. And Obama has been keen to pass Climate legislation and then he gets blame for job losses rightly or wrongly. See Hillary saying she wants to put the coal miners out of work. Dems have abandoned them. But local dems can still win with right message.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758

    Alistair said:

    nunu said:

    From 7 point Clinton lead to level pegging.
    Trump consolidates the base in NC: now 90% of GOP, up from 80%. 59% of whites, up from 53. Winning white col+ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/upshot/trump-and-clinton-tied-in-final-upshot-poll-of-north-carolina.html

    If Trump is leading with college educated whites then Clinton should be very worried. All the assumptions were based on her leading with them.

    If he's leading College Educated Whites then he has won NC
    If he's leading college educated whites he's won the election by a country mile.

    Going out on a limb here but I don't think he's going to win college educated whites....
    That doesn't follow. The demographics in NC balance out - blacks and other minorities strongly in favour of Clinton ; whites somewhat in favour of Trump, leading to a race that can only be called as a tie. This is 2% better for the Democrats than in 2012. It doesn't of itself mean the Democrats have won across the board: other states see the Democrats doing worse than last time. Overall a Clinton win is more likely than not at this stage.

    College educated whites have tended to Republican in recent years although there is a slow drift in favour of the Democrats.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Well, in individual polls, sure - because of big margins of error. That's why you take averages, or some weighted concoction.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB Do you specifically need him to win by 328+ ECVs though, I mean won't 290 ECVs work just as well for you ?

    Anything above 269ECVs for the Donald and I'm going to Fiji with my gf in February paid for by the punters on BF. Anything less and I'll break even. I had a fairly large green position on Hillary that I built up in the primaries when she was wobbling against Bernie, I spent it all on Donald!
    I think you might have to do with Skegness....it's supposed to be alright in February..close your eyes and you could be in Fiji..possibly.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:
    Jack - have you see the Emerson poll with a 7 point lead for Trump in Ohio? I broadly agree with your ARSE except I think Trump will win Ohio and Maine 2.
    I have now .... :smile:

    Emerson are pretty GOP bullish .... others add two more letters.

    Ohio is very tight. I understand Trump has pulled in Palin to make stops there. You don't use one of your few surrogates if you are +7 in a state. GOTV critical tomorrow. Clinton has the ground game, Donald not so much.

    Ohio is my narrowest call - Tight as TSE's spandex glitter hipsters .... :sunglasses:
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    Any links to those banners?

    How many more times...

    twitter.com/michaelpdeacon/status/747000584226607104

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/watch-vote-leaves-dom-cummings-is-grilled-by-andrew-tyrie-this-sounds-like-aladdins-cave-to-me/
    Of course it'd be in Scott's twitter archive :D
    Vernacular
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Emerson are a landline only pollster.
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    JackW said:

    JackW said:
    Jack - have you see the Emerson poll with a 7 point lead for Trump in Ohio? I broadly agree with your ARSE except I think Trump will win Ohio and Maine 2.
    I have now .... :smile:

    Emerson are pretty GOP bullish .... others add two more letters.

    Ohio is very tight. I understand Trump has pulled in Palin to make stops there. You don't use one of your few surrogates if you are +7 in a state. GOTV critical tomorrow. Clinton has the ground game, Donald not so much.

    Ohio is my narrowest call - Tight as TSE's spandex glitter hipsters .... :sunglasses:
    Ohio is like Florida in 2012, very tight but irrelevant to the grander scheme of things IMHO.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    JackW said:

    JackW said:
    Jack - have you see the Emerson poll with a 7 point lead for Trump in Ohio? I broadly agree with your ARSE except I think Trump will win Ohio and Maine 2.
    I have now .... :smile:

    Emerson are pretty GOP bullish .... others add two more letters.

    Ohio is very tight. I understand Trump has pulled in Palin to make stops there. You don't use one of your few surrogates if you are +7 in a state. GOTV critical tomorrow. Clinton has the ground game, Donald not so much.

    Ohio is my narrowest call - Tight as TSE's spandex glitter hipsters .... :sunglasses:
    It's a brave call that Jack...get Ohio wrong and your ARSE is at some risk of losing credibility even though it called the other states

    But get it right....jeez....the pantheons will be singing ballads to your ARSE for the millennium ahead, the bards and poets will be creating new found eulogies...and the words Jack's Arse will be synonymous with.....greatness....


  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The policy, in black and white, was £100m. It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.

    The policy, in red and white, was £350m

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/watch-vote-leaves-dom-cummings-is-grilled-by-andrew-tyrie-this-sounds-like-aladdins-cave-to-me/

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.
    Advert not policy paper (not sure it was officially called a manifesto). This article sets out the main policies very clearly.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534802
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Seriously?

    Daily Caller
    EXCLUSIVE: Virginia Gov. Pardons 60,000 Felons, Enough To Swing Election https://t.co/RzJ2g94a2T https://t.co/akLelsQkC9

    Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe has granted voting rights to as many as 60,000 convicted felons just in time for them to register to vote, nearly five times more than previously reported and enough to win the state for his long-time friend, Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton.

    McAuliffe sought to allow all of Virginia’s estimated 200,000 felons to vote, but state courts said each individual felon’s circumstances must be weighed. To get around that, McAuliffe used a mechanical autopen to rapidly sign thousands of letters, as if he had personally reviewed them...

    Good on him. The permanent removal of the vote from people convicted of a crime yet served their sentence in many American states is a disgrace of international proportions.
    It's the right thing to do, even if done for the wrong reasons. Every free man (and woman) should have the right to vote, disenfranchisement for life should be illegal.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    Advert not policy paper (not sure it was officially called a manifesto). This article sets out the main policies very clearly.

    I have here one of your posters that’s available on your website and that you’re encouraging supporters to download. That is telling us that we should give the whole of this £350million to the NHS, doesn’t it?

    Are you really claiming that a poster downloadable from the website was not describing their policy?

    Really?

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,193
    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
    The real deceit, of course, came from Cameron who promised to trigger A50 the day after a vote to leave the EU.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    Advert not policy paper (not sure it was officially called a manifesto). This article sets out the main policies very clearly.

    I have here one of your posters that’s available on your website and that you’re encouraging supporters to download. That is telling us that we should give the whole of this £350million to the NHS, doesn’t it?

    Are you really claiming that a poster downloadable from the website was not describing their policy?

    Really?

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't
    Read the BBC article.

    Manifestos carry more weight than adverts.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Dos anyone know who various Bookies (Betfair and Paddy Power) are using for calculating voter turnout? Looking at general figures online shows lots of varying figures for the last two elections.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Dominic Cummings was warned about this claim, and constantly pilloried for it by other Leave supporting organisations.

    If he now faces prosecution then I would be slightly satisfied that the fool gets his comeuppance. Unfortunately though, this will be used in an attempt to nullify the result if it succeeds. The delay in triggering Article 50 and this court pursuit should probably not be seen in isolation from each other. Remain hasn't given up the fight yet, and there is still a possibility that the result will be reversed through delay and other tactics, until some other event comes along to shift opinion (or another EU based membership deal such as associate membership). If there is actual collusion here is anyone's guess.

    One possibility is that the EU might attempt to roll up the EEA agreement into an 'Associate Membership' class - which Norwegian politicians might well agree to . That would remove one soft Brexit option in they agreed to it. Time is therefore not the friend of the Leavers.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/729616/prince-andrew-brexit-donald-trump-eu-exit

    After Gina Miller, Remain gets a boost from another down to earth ordinary man of the people....
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    Manifestos carry more weight than adverts.

    The Brexiteers keep telling us there was no manifesto, and in any case the Leave campaign produced a poster with an outright lie on it, which is the basis of the legal challenge.

    Does anyone have a transcript of BoJo's speech?

    https://twitter.com/michaelpdeacon/status/747000584226607104

    Does it include the words "Please ignore the poster behind me, it's not a statement of policy" ?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    taffys said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/729616/prince-andrew-brexit-donald-trump-eu-exit

    After Gina Miller, Remain gets a boost from another down to earth ordinary man of the people....

    If Air-miles Andy isn't on board there goes any chance of our quick trade deals. ;)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    edited November 2016
    Mr. Taffys, its damned fraternal of Andrew to help make Charles look good.

    Edited extra bit: it's*
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    tlg86 said:

    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
    The real deceit, of course, came from Cameron who promised to trigger A50 the day after a vote to leave the EU.
    Indeed. So the man in charge of the Remain campaign was clearly of the opinion that it was a matter for the Government rather than Parliament to decide, having listened to the view of the people?
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The Brexiteers keep telling us there was no manifesto, and in any case the Leave campaign produced a poster with an outright lie on it, which is the basis of the legal challenge.''

    Some remainers remind me of Tam Dalyell and the sinking of the Belgrano.

    In the end, even his supporters got totally fed up of his wailing.
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    Mr. Sandpit, and no objection was raised to Cameron's claim he'd trigger Article 50 the day after the vote if Leave won.
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    TonyE said:

    Dominic Cummings was warned about this claim, and constantly pilloried for it by other Leave supporting organisations.

    If he now faces prosecution then I would be slightly satisfied that the fool gets his comeuppance. Unfortunately though, this will be used in an attempt to nullify the result if it succeeds. The delay in triggering Article 50 and this court pursuit should probably not be seen in isolation from each other. Remain hasn't given up the fight yet, and there is still a possibility that the result will be reversed through delay and other tactics, until some other event comes along to shift opinion (or another EU based membership deal such as associate membership). If there is actual collusion here is anyone's guess.

    One possibility is that the EU might attempt to roll up the EEA agreement into an 'Associate Membership' class - which Norwegian politicians might well agree to . That would remove one soft Brexit option in they agreed to it. Time is therefore not the friend of the Leavers.

    The cost of fuel and other price rises due to the post referendum slide of the pound will take a little longer to register, but you're right time is not on the side of the Leavers.
    http://news.sky.com/story/fuel-price-acceleration-fastest-for-years-rac-report-10642719
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    Mr. Song, hence the efforts to delay Article 50, and Clegg's wibbling of a second referendum.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Final Monmouth national poll:

    Clinton 50
    Trump 44
    Johnson 4
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited November 2016
    Scott_P said:
    Well I'm not nor was I naïve enough to believe this figure (£350M) in its totality (gross/net etc). There again, I'm still waiting for my interest rate rise GO promised me if we voted to leave (I'm shocked personally, and inconsolable).

    However, isn't there a logical flaw here in that "we haven't left yet". So how do we know it's not going to be true when we do (and even then there's no timetable)?

    Frankly this kind of utter nonsense is the sort of thing poisoning the debate, and making Leavers so thin skinned that victory is going to be "stolen" (it's not like the EU hasn't got form here - see "No votes" in the Netherlands, Ireland, France, Denmark (from memory), and T Blair's promised vote on the Constitution). Both sides were "generous" with the acualtite - it was a robust political campaign.

    There's a reasonable point to be made about prerogative v Parliament last week (even if I personally think a direct Referendum question should overrule that), but the judiciary has adjudicated independently, so we should let the due legal process take its course and accept the outcome and act from there (otherwise it's anarchy). But this, possible case. This is bollocks pure and simple, in my humble view, and does not enhance the Remain cause an iota.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Ha ha! If only political ads were held to the same standards of truthfulness and honesty as all other advertising perhaps politicians would be held in the same high esteem as advertisers!
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally. ''

    Reminds me of the final polls in UK 2015. Convergence around 34/34. Completely hung parliament, they all said. Labour SNP coalition openly discussed as the final polls came out. Ed Miliband measuring up curtains.

    Result: Tory majority.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    justin124 said:

    nunu said:

    justin124 said:

    West Virginia was formerly a very reliable Democrat state until Gore lost there in 2000. Before that time it only went Republican in landslide years such as 1984 and 1972. Nowadays it is seen as a very strong Republican state. What accounts for the sudden change there?
    Likewise Illinois was for many years a crucial Swing state - yet since 1992 it has been pretty well writen off by the Republicans.

    More polarized electorate? W.Virgina's economy was very coal based so I'm guessing talk of dealing with climate change put them off, Gore is a big climate change campaigner. Also dems have a demographic problem of their own which is they are losing wwc votes very fast.
    The climate change factor surely would have been personal to Gore rather than Democrats in general It seems odd that Obama lost heavily in West Virginia yet Dukakis carried it in 1988 as did Carter in 1980!
    WV was a Democrat stronghold for almost a century. In 2000, Gore just had to win it [ or Tennessee, his own state ] and nobody would have cared about Florida.

    Bust promised to increase tariffs on steel imports [ later lost in WTO ]. But he was seen as having fulfilled his promise. It has now become forever Republican. Good. It is a dirty state.
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    Mr. Roger, madness. Next you'll be saying we should judge pundits based on how right they are (like we do punters).
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    taffys said:

    ''Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally. ''

    Reminds me of the final polls in UK 2015. Convergence around 34/34. Completely hung parliament, they all said. Labour SNP coalition openly discussed as the final polls came out. Ed Miliband measuring up curtains.

    Result: Tory majority.

    remind me again, which leader had higher personal ratings?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    619 said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
    Indeed.

    Add the ground game and it's looking 5-6 points.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
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    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    So one of the Supreme Court judges yet to rule on this current case was on the side of the Lisbon Treaty...

    "Jonathan Sumption QC, appearing for the Office of the Prime Minister, told the judges: "This case is politics dressed up as law."
    The Government argued that the Lisbon treaty is different from the previously-proposed European Constitution on which Labour promised a popular vote. "
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Clinton up to 2.9 on RCP poll tracker in the 4 way
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    619 said:

    taffys said:

    ''Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally. ''

    Reminds me of the final polls in UK 2015. Convergence around 34/34. Completely hung parliament, they all said. Labour SNP coalition openly discussed as the final polls came out. Ed Miliband measuring up curtains.

    Result: Tory majority.

    remind me again, which leader had higher personal ratings?
    Don't try and tell me Clinton is popular :D
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Thanks, Prof Watt.
    You seem to have set off a debate even more futile and interminable than we have learned to expect between the Leave and Remain diehards.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101

    Mr. Sandpit, and no objection was raised to Cameron's claim he'd trigger Article 50 the day after the vote if Leave won.

    You should be careful with that line of argument. If it can be shown that Cameron sold the whole referendum on a false prospectus where would we stand?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    So one of the Supreme Court judges yet to rule on this current case was on the side of the Lisbon Treaty...

    "Jonathan Sumption QC, appearing for the Office of the Prime Minister, told the judges: "This case is politics dressed up as law."
    The Government argued that the Lisbon treaty is different from the previously-proposed European Constitution on which Labour promised a popular vote. "
    Yes, it was different. It had a different name. ;)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    surbiton said:

    justin124 said:

    nunu said:

    justin124 said:

    West Virginia was formerly a very reliable Democrat state until Gore lost there in 2000. Before that time it only went Republican in landslide years such as 1984 and 1972. Nowadays it is seen as a very strong Republican state. What accounts for the sudden change there?
    Likewise Illinois was for many years a crucial Swing state - yet since 1992 it has been pretty well writen off by the Republicans.

    More polarized electorate? W.Virgina's economy was very coal based so I'm guessing talk of dealing with climate change put them off, Gore is a big climate change campaigner. Also dems have a demographic problem of their own which is they are losing wwc votes very fast.
    The climate change factor surely would have been personal to Gore rather than Democrats in general It seems odd that Obama lost heavily in West Virginia yet Dukakis carried it in 1988 as did Carter in 1980!
    WV was a Democrat stronghold for almost a century. In 2000, Gore just had to win it [ or Tennessee, his own state ] and nobody would have cared about Florida.

    Bust promised to increase tariffs on steel imports [ later lost in WTO ]. But he was seen as having fulfilled his promise. It has now become forever Republican. Good. It is a dirty state.
    A dirty state? Charming.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited November 2016
    619 said:

    taffys said:

    ''Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally. ''

    Reminds me of the final polls in UK 2015. Convergence around 34/34. Completely hung parliament, they all said. Labour SNP coalition openly discussed as the final polls came out. Ed Miliband measuring up curtains.

    Result: Tory majority.

    remind me again, which leader had higher personal ratings?
    Also in 2012 the polls called it closer than tbe 3% that Obama won by.

    So in a MOE we could be looking at a tie vs HC by nearly 10% in a landslide.

    A lot depends if the pollsters have corrected (or over corrected!) their methodology.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    Parliament, the judiciary, and everyone else should be striving to get the rather awkward mandate that the referendum delivered out of the way. Any and all bickering about it is stupid. The country didn't vote to trigger article 50, but it's good enough as a point of delivery. To have any debate about doing so wrecks our rule of law forever.

    A referendum instigates a parallel form of government. That's a disaster. We need to get back to just one, however as the primary form of government approved the referendum in the first place it clearly has precedence.

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    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Seriously?

    Daily Caller
    EXCLUSIVE: Virginia Gov. Pardons 60,000 Felons, Enough To Swing Election https://t.co/RzJ2g94a2T https://t.co/akLelsQkC9

    Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe has granted voting rights to as many as 60,000 convicted felons just in time for them to register to vote, nearly five times more than previously reported and enough to win the state for his long-time friend, Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton.

    McAuliffe sought to allow all of Virginia’s estimated 200,000 felons to vote, but state courts said each individual felon’s circumstances must be weighed. To get around that, McAuliffe used a mechanical autopen to rapidly sign thousands of letters, as if he had personally reviewed them...

    Good on him. The permanent removal of the vote from people convicted of a crime yet served their sentence in many American states is a disgrace of international proportions.
    Crooked Hillary gets more crooked votes. What a slogan.
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    Mr. Song, hence the efforts to delay Article 50, and Clegg's wibbling of a second referendum.

    Maybe, but they'd only work if there was some substance to 'project fear'. In other words if some of it was true.
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    TonyE said:

    Dominic Cummings was warned about this claim, and constantly pilloried for it by other Leave supporting organisations.

    If he now faces prosecution then I would be slightly satisfied that the fool gets his comeuppance. Unfortunately though, this will be used in an attempt to nullify the result if it succeeds. The delay in triggering Article 50 and this court pursuit should probably not be seen in isolation from each other. Remain hasn't given up the fight yet, and there is still a possibility that the result will be reversed through delay and other tactics, until some other event comes along to shift opinion (or another EU based membership deal such as associate membership). If there is actual collusion here is anyone's guess.

    One possibility is that the EU might attempt to roll up the EEA agreement into an 'Associate Membership' class - which Norwegian politicians might well agree to . That would remove one soft Brexit option in they agreed to it. Time is therefore not the friend of the Leavers.

    The cost of fuel and other price rises due to the post referendum slide of the pound will take a little longer to register, but you're right time is not on the side of the Leavers.
    http://news.sky.com/story/fuel-price-acceleration-fastest-for-years-rac-report-10642719
    Depends. We could see a slump in the $ if Trump gets in.
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    taffys said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/729616/prince-andrew-brexit-donald-trump-eu-exit

    After Gina Miller, Remain gets a boost from another down to earth ordinary man of the people....

    Perhaps Farage could polish his anti establishment cred by organising a mob of sans culottes to march on Buck House while Andy is resident.
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    surbiton said:

    justin124 said:

    nunu said:

    justin124 said:

    West Virginia was formerly a very reliable Democrat state until Gore lost there in 2000. Before that time it only went Republican in landslide years such as 1984 and 1972. Nowadays it is seen as a very strong Republican state. What accounts for the sudden change there?
    Likewise Illinois was for many years a crucial Swing state - yet since 1992 it has been pretty well writen off by the Republicans.

    More polarized electorate? W.Virgina's economy was very coal based so I'm guessing talk of dealing with climate change put them off, Gore is a big climate change campaigner. Also dems have a demographic problem of their own which is they are losing wwc votes very fast.
    The climate change factor surely would have been personal to Gore rather than Democrats in general It seems odd that Obama lost heavily in West Virginia yet Dukakis carried it in 1988 as did Carter in 1980!
    WV was a Democrat stronghold for almost a century. In 2000, Gore just had to win it [ or Tennessee, his own state ] and nobody would have cared about Florida.

    Bust promised to increase tariffs on steel imports [ later lost in WTO ]. But he was seen as having fulfilled his promise. It has now become forever Republican. Good. It is a dirty state.

    West Virginia is magnificent.
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    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    So one of the Supreme Court judges yet to rule on this current case was on the side of the Lisbon Treaty...

    "Jonathan Sumption QC, appearing for the Office of the Prime Minister, told the judges: "This case is politics dressed up as law."
    The Government argued that the Lisbon treaty is different from the previously-proposed European Constitution on which Labour promised a popular vote. "
    I don't think he was 'on the side' of anything - merely making a legal case on behalf of his client. As lawyers tend to do.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Someone needs to get the infamous Brexit bus and park it behind the Donald just in case.
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    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
    The real deceit, of course, came from Cameron who promised to trigger A50 the day after a vote to leave the EU.
    Indeed. So the man in charge of the Remain campaign was clearly of the opinion that it was a matter for the Government rather than Parliament to decide, having listened to the view of the people?
    I admit to being a bit sceptical when he said if he didn't get his own way in his renegotioations he personally would lead the leave campaign. Of course I was ashamed of myself for doubting him and believed everything he said about the EU subsequently. Including this "Some people seem to say that really Britain couldn’t survive, couldn’t do okay outside the European Union. I don’t think that is true. Let’s be frank, Britain is an amazing country. We have got the fifth biggest economy in the world. We are a top ten manufacturer, growing steadily strong financial services. The world wants to come and do business here". We could do with more men of that confidence and sincerity to lead us out. I rather wish he had failed in his negotiations and he had led the Leave campaign as he promised. Sorely missed.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    OT but is anyone else following Guido's series of revelations on Baroness Scotland, SG of the Commonwealth. The latest one surely means she's a goner?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    edited November 2016
    Why the £350,000,000 resonates above all the other tall stories told or written during the campaign is that it was a lie.

    A fact that was known to be untrue.

    The much reported £4,300 was speculation. It could only be because it hadn't happened yet.

    As politicians can write and say anything on leaflets TV or in the press with very few caveats-none to do with honesty-I can't see on what basis this can go to court.

    Having said that keeping it in the public eye by threatening to seems like a smart strategy. When the NHS has a crisis or we face a severe and painful downturn there will never be a better rope to hang these fraudsters by than the picture of them in front of their deceit.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    So one of the Supreme Court judges yet to rule on this current case was on the side of the Lisbon Treaty...

    "Jonathan Sumption QC, appearing for the Office of the Prime Minister, told the judges: "This case is politics dressed up as law."
    The Government argued that the Lisbon treaty is different from the previously-proposed European Constitution on which Labour promised a popular vote. "
    I don't think he was 'on the side' of anything - merely making a legal case on behalf of his client. As lawyers tend to do.

    "This case is politics dressed up as law" is still a good phrase to use I think.

  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited November 2016
    RobD said:

    OT but is anyone else following Guido's series of revelations on Baroness Scotland, SG of the Commonwealth. The latest one surely means she's a goner?

    Only slightly although having been to some commonwealth events, the intervention of Heads of Govt such as this is unprecedented for what is an "old boy/girls club".
    http://order-order.com/2016/11/07/antiguan-pm-baroness-scotland-brought-shame-commonwealth/

    The background to Labour's Baroness Scotland getting the job also stank.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited November 2016

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
    The real deceit, of course, came from Cameron who promised to trigger A50 the day after a vote to leave the EU.
    Indeed. So the man in charge of the Remain campaign was clearly of the opinion that it was a matter for the Government rather than Parliament to decide, having listened to the view of the people?
    I admit to being a bit sceptical when he said if he didn't get his own way in his renegotioations he personally would lead the leave campaign. Of course I was ashamed of myself for doubting him and believed everything he said about the EU subsequently. Including this "Some people seem to say that really Britain couldn’t survive, couldn’t do okay outside the European Union. I don’t think that is true. Let’s be frank, Britain is an amazing country. We have got the fifth biggest economy in the world. We are a top ten manufacturer, growing steadily strong financial services. The world wants to come and do business here". We could do with more men of that confidence and sincerity to lead us out. I rather wish he had failed in his negotiations and he had led the Leave campaign as he promised. Sorely missed.
    Indeed. He backed the wrong horse. I have a gut feeling (pure speculation on my part) that he didn't think he could successfully lead a Leave campaign and feared he'd lose and have to resign. How ironic that would be if it were true. Leave would've walked it with Cameron at its head.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    So one of the Supreme Court judges yet to rule on this current case was on the side of the Lisbon Treaty...

    "Jonathan Sumption QC, appearing for the Office of the Prime Minister, told the judges: "This case is politics dressed up as law."
    The Government argued that the Lisbon treaty is different from the previously-proposed European Constitution on which Labour promised a popular vote. "
    I don't think he was 'on the side' of anything - merely making a legal case on behalf of his client. As lawyers tend to do.

    "This case is politics dressed up as law" is still a good phrase to use I think.

    Except I don't think the Supreme Court can simply throw out the case and annul the lower courts result. I believe that they have to come down one way or the other.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    JackW said:

    619 said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
    Indeed.

    Add the ground game and it's looking 5-6 points.
    Add in Labour's ground game and they were 2-3 points ahead of the Tories nationally in 2015. Apparently.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Roger said:

    Why the £350,000,000 resonates above all the other tall stories told or written during the campaign is that it was a lie.

    A fact that was known to be untrue.

    The much reported £4,300 was speculation. It could only be because it hadn't happened yet.

    As politicians can write and say anything on leaflets TV or in the press with very few caveats-none to do with honesty-I can't see on what basis this can go to court.

    Having said that keeping it in the public eye by threatening to seems like a smart strategy. When the NHS has a crisis or we face a severe and painful downturn there will never be a better rope to hang these fraudsters by than the picture of them in front of their deceit.

    Sandy Rentool boasted on here that he pushed the £350m a week for the NHS leaflet through people's letterboxes knowing full well that it was a bare-faced, flat lie. He should hang his head in shame, as should the entire sinister left-nationalist rabble known as 'Labour Leave'.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Oh dear, Trump is sunk- Telegraph reporting Rees-Mogg has withdrawn his support :D
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MaxPB said:

    JackW said:

    619 said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
    Indeed.

    Add the ground game and it's looking 5-6 points.
    Add in Labour's ground game and they were 2-3 points ahead of the Tories nationally in 2015. Apparently.
    Not by me they weren't .... :smile:
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MaxPB said:

    JackW said:

    619 said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
    Indeed.

    Add the ground game and it's looking 5-6 points.
    Add in Labour's ground game and they were 2-3 points ahead of the Tories nationally in 2015. Apparently.
    The Dems presidential ground game has copious documentation as to it's effectiveness.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Jobabob said:

    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?

    Did she say she would be making one?
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The policy, in black and white, was £100m. It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.

    The policy, in red and white, was £350m

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/watch-vote-leaves-dom-cummings-is-grilled-by-andrew-tyrie-this-sounds-like-aladdins-cave-to-me/

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.
    Can we have this image as a giant banner on PB? Would save so much duplication of effort reminding Leavers of their claim.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited November 2016
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    JackW said:

    619 said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 931 - 4-6 Nov

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 40

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Seems to be a convergence on around Clinton being 4-5 ahead nationally.
    Indeed.

    Add the ground game and it's looking 5-6 points.
    Add in Labour's ground game and they were 2-3 points ahead of the Tories nationally in 2015. Apparently.
    The Dems presidential ground game has copious documentation as to it's effectiveness.
    Don't worry, I was just having a joke at the expense of IoS! On the subject of ground game, something I've heard is that Trump has engaged with a lot of non-voters, but his organisation is so poor that they failed to get them registered in time for a lot of states and only a few have election day registration. Bone headed if that has even a single iota of truth.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?

    Did she say she would be making one?
    I have no idea. Any news from her?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Jobabob said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The policy, in black and white, was £100m. It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.

    The policy, in red and white, was £350m

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/watch-vote-leaves-dom-cummings-is-grilled-by-andrew-tyrie-this-sounds-like-aladdins-cave-to-me/

    It's astonishing that you spend so much effort claiming it wasn't.
    Can we have this image as a giant banner on PB? Would save so much duplication of effort reminding Leavers of their claim.
    And get rid of winning here? Never!
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jobabob said:
    Trump Rampers have been quietly rowing back their "Hillary will be smashed" rhetoric and have now gone for ambiguous "It will be tight/Narrow Hillary win" to try and avoid reputational loss of face.

    My View is either Clinton 294 or Clinton 352, no inbetween.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Jobabob said:
    I don't think taunting the whackjobs is particularly wise. If Trump wins, how could you cope with the gloating?......I couldn't for one
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Jobabob said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?

    Did she say she would be making one?
    I have no idea. Any news from her?
    Then why are you are expecting one?
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,817
    tlg86 said:

    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leavers don't like it up 'em.

    I suspect this will go the same way as the case about Labour's manifesto.

    What case was that?
    This one

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2192093/Stuart-Wheeler-loses-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-court-case.html
    Ah yes, the one where the judge ruled that an election manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on!
    There is a difference between fantasy (manifesto) and outright deceit (leave campaign)
    The real deceit, of course, came from Cameron who promised to trigger A50 the day after a vote to leave the EU.
    What would have happened then though? By the token of the pre-A50 challenge, it's inconceivable to think that there wouldn't have been a challenge to the legality of A50 post-event on the same basis and it is reasonable to assume that as it would cover the same grounds in law, that the result would likely be the same. However, it would only by going to the ECJ could EU institutions could be instructed that the A50 trigger was illegal and should not continue to be acted on from their side: and the 2 year clock halted.

    If you think the howls of derision are bad now, just imagine that one!
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Battleground States - Clarity - Samples Below - 1-4 Nov

    PA - Clinton 47 .. Trump 43 - 1,033
    WI - Clinton 47 .. Trump 43 - 1.129
    MO - Clinton 38 .. Trump 54 - 1.036

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/11072016_sen.pdf
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Trump is sunk- Telegraph reporting Rees-Mogg has withdrawn his support :D

    LOL. It's over :smiley:
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jobabob said:

    Can we have this image as a giant banner on PB? Would save so much duplication of effort reminding Leavers of their claim.

    Time for a new profile pic
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    Jobabob said:

    ECV forecasts currently MIA

    For the sake of being a contrarian - http://www.270towin.com/maps/LLLby
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    edited November 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Jobabob said:

    Can we have this image as a giant banner on PB? Would save so much duplication of effort reminding Leavers of their claim.

    Time for a new profile pic
    Must say, I preferred the Guardian one ;)

    Edit: whoops.. wrong person!
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    Jobabob said:

    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?

    Plato's forecasts are measure in Wikileaks emails, not electoral votes :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Jobabob said:

    ECV forecasts currently MIA

    For the sake of being a contrarian - http://www.270towin.com/maps/LLLby
    A sweep of the rust belt states? Ever the optimist :D
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    @Tyson
    I'm actually interested join seeing their forecasts – genuinely am.

    In any case, if Trump wins we'll have far worse things to worry about than a bunch of anonymous nutcases gloating on PB. Although I will win a handsome purse from my betting!
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    RobD said:

    Jobabob said:

    Has @PlatoSaid graced us with her ECV forecast yet?

    Did she say she would be making one?
    I have no idea. Any news from her?
    Then why are you are expecting one?
    I'm hoping for one rather than expecting one.

    I'm not stupid.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Trump has just spent the last 10 mins moaning about Jay Z and Beyoncé's language at a rally.

    Really selling himself last minute! Game changer!
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    Trump has just found that out that almost everyone in his latest huge rally in FL has already voted.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Jobabob said:

    @Tyson
    I'm actually interested join seeing their forecasts – genuinely am.

    In any case, if Trump wins we'll have far worse things to worry about than a bunch of anonymous nutcases gloating on PB. Although I will win a handsome purse from my betting!


    fair point
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    Jobabob said:

    Can we have this image as a giant banner on PB? Would save so much duplication of effort reminding Leavers of their claim.

    Time for a new profile pic
    Good shout. Very innovative Scott!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    http://www.270towin.com/maps/Ok3eJ

    If anyone was wondering what my map looks like.

  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    ECV forecasts currently MIA

    For the sake of being a contrarian - http://www.270towin.com/maps/LLLby

    That's a much more logical route than a lot of people give it credit for IMO. A smart map. Probably a loser, but has a logic to it.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    MaxPB said:

    Yes and no. If I give you £350 today and you promise to give me £80 back next year, I've still given you £350. I may receive £80 today from last year's rebate, but I'm still giving you £350 today, as in the payment registered with my bank would be £350 paid out to Richard Nabavi.

    Nice try, but they also said that, under their proposal, you could spend the £350 on your healthcare plan.

    There's no getting away from this. It was a straightforward and deliberate lie. I agree with Alastair, however, that this isn't a matter for a criminal prosecution, and I don't expect it will go anywhere.
    Of course it won't go anywhere I expect the purpose is to embarrass the Leave campaign. They would love to conveniently bury the issue but it's not going away. Still it's entertaining reading the comments of some of the Brexiteers tying themselves in knots trying so say it wasn't a lie.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,135
    619 said:

    Trump has just spent the last 10 mins moaning about Jay Z and Beyoncé's language at a rally.

    I hope they didn't use the p*ssy word. That would be shocking.
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 907
    How do we put in our ECV predictions?
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Barnesian


    'Let's rerun the referendum now that we all know a lot more about the options and issues.'


    Let's re-run the 2010 GE campaign because we now know the Lib Dem lied about scraping tuition fees.

This discussion has been closed.