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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After decades we should be getting the Heathrow expansion deci

SystemSystem Posts: 12,265
edited October 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After decades we should be getting the Heathrow expansion decision tomorrow

It has been an awful long time coming but we are promised that the long awaited decision on the expansion of Heathrow will come tomorrow.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Fly away .....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Let them all build more runways..


    On Brexit some interesting trade tariff figures here...

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/eu-mad-start-trade-war-britain-heres/

    "Germany, not surprisingly, would be the biggest net loser: its exporters would pay £3.4 billion in tariffs, compared with the £0.9 billion worth of tariffs paid by UK exporters selling to Germany. France, too, would be a big loser, not least due to the higher tariffs allowed for agricultural goods under MFN rules. French exporters to the UK would pay £1.4 billion in tariffs, compared with £700 million paid by UK exporters to France."
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,333
    Finally. Get building immediately.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Meanwhile .... Donald says the Clinton campaign are making up polls .....

    Yeah right .... Rasmussen, LA Times, IBD/TIPP .... :smiley:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/302454-trump-claims-democrats-are-making-up-polls
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,333
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    A trip down memory lane:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/02/the-idea-that-post-brexit-trade-negotiations-would-be-wrapped-up-quickly-is-divorced-from-reality/

    There's some true comedy gold on that thread

    Canada deal was done in five years. Wonder why Alastair left this out of his table??

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement
    the obvious thing is to take CETA, agree a UK modified version with Canada and make it effective day one of Brexit

    This would also have the huge advantage of pissing juncker and schulz off.
    We could probably go better than CETA on a bilateral basis as the EU refused to open up financial services iirc, I'm sure the UK wouldn't.
    I think we'd probably use the EFTA-Canada trade deal tbh
    Maybe not for Canada given our historic ties. I think we'd go for bespoke rather than off the shelf. The government will want to show why leaving the EU has positives using an existing deal which isn't an ideal fit might not be a politically viable option.
    I would have thought speed would be the primary concern.
    Maybe, but customisation of CETA won't take long and then it can be presented as better than the EU, especially since it's either dead or about to get gutted.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I thought we were getting some sort on decision in principle tomorrow but postponing any final commitment for another year? Is tomorrow really the final thing?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,191
    JackW said:

    Meanwhile .... Donald says the Clinton campaign are making up polls .....

    Yeah right .... Rasmussen, LA Times, IBD/TIPP .... :smiley:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/302454-trump-claims-democrats-are-making-up-polls

    Not waving but drowning!!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,552
    ToryJim said:

    JackW said:

    Meanwhile .... Donald says the Clinton campaign are making up polls .....

    Yeah right .... Rasmussen, LA Times, IBD/TIPP .... :smiley:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/302454-trump-claims-democrats-are-making-up-polls

    Not waving but drowning!!!
    "No presidential candidate since the advent of modern polling has overcome the sort of deficits Trump faces nationally"

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/clinton-trump-election-countdown-polls-230212
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Its interesting that one of the sites querying the polls is zerohedge, a site sometimes cited on here.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,713
    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence



  • GasmanGasman Posts: 132
    edited October 2016
    The runway decision should surely have one benefit, whatever the (in)decision tomorrow: It will provide lasting proof that anyone who suggests the government spend our way out of a recession with infrastructure projects is an idiot.

    We have needed a new runway (or more) for a decade or more (when did this all start?) and we're still years away from actually doing anything other than start inquiries and we have numerous years of judicial reviews ahead of us. And this is for a project that we actually need!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Theresa Maybe.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • MitchellStirlingMitchellStirling Posts: 7
    Patrick said:

    I thought we were getting some sort on decision in principle tomorrow but postponing any final commitment for another year? Is tomorrow really the final thing?

    Tomorrow the Government will choose a preferred option. In order for that plan to be developed a Development Consent Order (DCO) is required. Before that the Government will need to add to it's National Policy Statement in around a year's time. This will require consultation in advance and vote in House of Commons. There will probably be a further round of public consultation between NPS and DCO.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2016
    MitchellStirling said:

    Patrick said:

    I thought we were getting some sort on decision in principle tomorrow but postponing any final commitment for another year? Is tomorrow really the final thing?

    Tomorrow the Government will choose a preferred option. In order for that plan to be developed a Development Consent Order (DCO) is required. Before that the Government will need to add to it's National Policy Statement in around a year's time. This will require consultation in advance and vote in House of Commons. There will probably be a further round of public consultation between NPS and DCO.
    So breaking ground in 2019 if things go smoothly? [Which they wont].

    As an aside: in the unlikely event Boris ever lies down in front of a bulldozer, you could offset most of the cost of Brexit by raffling tickets to be the driver.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    edited October 2016
    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Anorak said:

    MitchellStirling said:

    Patrick said:

    I thought we were getting some sort on decision in principle tomorrow but postponing any final commitment for another year? Is tomorrow really the final thing?

    Tomorrow the Government will choose a preferred option. In order for that plan to be developed a Development Consent Order (DCO) is required. Before that the Government will need to add to it's National Policy Statement in around a year's time. This will require consultation in advance and vote in House of Commons. There will probably be a further round of public consultation between NPS and DCO.
    So breaking ground in 2019 if things go smoothly? [Which they wont].

    Theresa Maybe not.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    Heathrow Hub PLEASE. ta.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Alanbrooke said:

    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence

    This should be good:

    we will bring forward specific proposals over the next few weeks which would keep Scotland in the single market even if the rest of the UK leaves.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/24/theresa-may-hosts-brexit-summit-for-scottish-welsh-and-northern-irish-governments-politics-live
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ooooh, can't wait to read more risotto recipes.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Alanbrooke said:

    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence



    Mrs May is certainly superior to Mr Cameron in putting this jumped up little numpty in her place.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    A trip down memory lane:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/02/the-idea-that-post-brexit-trade-negotiations-would-be-wrapped-up-quickly-is-divorced-from-reality/

    There's some true comedy gold on that thread

    Canada deal was done in five years. Wonder why Alastair left this out of his table??

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement
    the obvious thing is to take CETA, agree a UK modified version with Canada and make it effective day one of Brexit

    This would also have the huge advantage of pissing juncker and schulz off.
    We could probably go better than CETA on a bilateral basis as the EU refused to open up financial services iirc, I'm sure the UK wouldn't.
    I think we'd probably use the EFTA-Canada trade deal tbh
    Maybe not for Canada given our historic ties. I think we'd go for bespoke rather than off the shelf. The government will want to show why leaving the EU has positives using an existing deal which isn't an ideal fit might not be a politically viable option.
    I would have thought speed would be the primary concern.
    Maybe, but customisation of CETA won't take long and then it can be presented as better than the EU, especially since it's either dead or about to get gutted.
    Has CETA been discussed or voted on in Westminster? Or is it only Belgium that gets to scrutinise sovereignty imparing trade deals? The closest thing that I can find is EDM 165, with 81 signatures requesting a debate in Parliament before implementation.

    http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2016-17/165
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    ToryJim said:

    JackW said:

    Meanwhile .... Donald says the Clinton campaign are making up polls .....

    Yeah right .... Rasmussen, LA Times, IBD/TIPP .... :smiley:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/302454-trump-claims-democrats-are-making-up-polls

    Not waving but drowning!!!
    The sinking man's Trump?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Luckyguy1983 Those dastardly Russians do seem to be remarkably interested in wikileaks for some reason:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635?rm=eu

  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    https://twitter.com/karaswisher/status/790563969463267329

    What do ailes, trump and this guy all seem to have in common?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.

    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    MaxPB said:

    Finally. Get building immediately.

    Indeed – and let’s hope they now start drawing up plans for Gatwick.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited October 2016
    900 migrants/refugees bussed out of Calais.

    The French have a certain efficiency about them when they want it.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,191
    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence

    This should be good:

    we will bring forward specific proposals over the next few weeks which would keep Scotland in the single market even if the rest of the UK leaves.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/24/theresa-may-hosts-brexit-summit-for-scottish-welsh-and-northern-irish-governments-politics-live
    Not sure that is constitutionally possible.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    900 migrants/refugees bussed out of Calais.

    The French have a certain efficiency about them when they want it.

    Took long enough – however, aren’t there 6,000 ‘migrants’ and only three days to shift them?

    [edited change of figure]
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Jim, indeed, which may be the point. Ask for the Moon on a stick, then complain evil nasty Westminster won't let you have it.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,012
    edited October 2016
    ToryJim said:

    Not sure that is constitutionally possible.

    Of course not, Sturgeon will propose something that May can't deliver, and then use that as justification for Indyref 2.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @Luckyguy1983 Those dastardly Russians do seem to be remarkably interested in wikileaks for some reason:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635?rm=eu

    Um, yes, they're interested in it because it undermines confidence in and support for traditional American power structures, and by extension the American public's tolerance for America's wars. In case you hadn't noticed, the two countries are not exactly best friends. Which of course, has no bearing on whether the wikileaks information is valid or true, and therefore, a necessary source of information that our own media feels we needn't know.

    When the evil Russkyes do it, it's called subversion, destabilisation and propaganda. When the West does it it's called SOFT POWER.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,191
    Mr Dancer yes all part of McGrievance Inc.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,355
    SimonStClare said:

    MaxPB said:

    Finally. Get building immediately.

    Indeed – and let’s hope they now start drawing up plans for Gatwick.
    Well, quite. Surely the sensible decision would be to go ahead with both Heathrow and Gatwick. Commercial organisations should compete with each other right? And start looking into Boris Island or somesuch permanent solution.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,191
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Erm no, it isn't.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    AlastairMeeks said:

    @Luckyguy1983 Those dastardly Russians do seem to be remarkably interested in wikileaks for some reason:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635?rm=eu

    I have a problem with the way this is being presented as if there is proof that Russian intelligence obtained the source materials and altered them before release - which would be incredibly serious.

    In fact it seems that no-one is questioning the authenticity of wikileaks' data and this is simply a case of journalistic misinterpretation, whether deliberate or through incompetence.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I don't have any faith in Wikileaks. The fact it was up on their website before RT tweeted it is something that anyone with time can verify.

    I am sure Russia is funding Wikileaks. I don't really care, because that's what nations do. This Potato Potahto stuff is for infants.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. P, no. It isn't.

    Corbyn was a disaster a year ago. He is a disaster now. In a year, he will still be a disaster.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. P, no. It isn't.

    Corbyn was a disaster a year ago. He is a disaster now. In a year, he will still be a disaster.

    Two years ago he was merely a curiosity. If you're predicting continuing disaster you must have faith in him.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    edited October 2016
    williamglenn said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @Luckyguy1983 Those dastardly Russians do seem to be remarkably interested in wikileaks for some reason:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635?rm=eu

    I have a problem with the way this is being presented as if there is proof that Russian intelligence obtained the source materials and altered them before release - which would be incredibly serious.

    In fact it seems that no-one is questioning the authenticity of wikileaks' data and this is simply a case of journalistic misinterpretation, whether deliberate or through incompetence.
    The fact is, they don't need to change anything, because the bad stuff is there! And if someone wanted to leak stuff about Russia being a corrupt kleptocracy, it would be there too. All propaganda needs these days is a collection of facts that support one argument and ommission of everything that doesn't support that narrative.

    In fact scratch that last - I suspect it's always been that way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,752
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    You have quite fallen out of love with the Conservatives.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Pulpstar said:

    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?

    I've heard there are plans to call it the Millennium runway to usher in the year 3000.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?

    I've heard there are plans to call it the Millennium runway to usher in the year 3000.
    Yes, but will we still be in the European Union? :)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?

    Will either occur before TSE publishes his AV thread?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
    Was he 'the man from the PRU'?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Corbyn was a disaster a year ago. He is a disaster now. In a year, he will still be a disaster.

    And in all 3 cases he looks less of a disaster than Brexit
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited October 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?

    I've heard there are plans to call it the Millennium runway to usher in the year 3000.
    There'll be a lawyer somewhere arguing that the consultation process was rushed and insufficient as Mrs Moggins holds out for 300% of the value of her property up for CPO too.

    Nailed on.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. P, no, he doesn't.

    You'd rather we be in the EU with Corbyn as PM than out with someone else?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,386
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    You have quite fallen out of love with the Conservatives.
    Perhaps you'll meet on the road as you move in opposite directions.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    edited October 2016
    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    That's just arse covering bullshit. You can build confidence without a commentary. The truth is they say nothing because there is nothing to say, zip. Sweet Fa. It's all a bluff. They have no clue. The most generous interpretation is that the government hopes maybe to engineer a clue by March.

    Criminal really.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
    Have you seen his article in today's Telegraph. If that article is indicative of the fellow's depth of thought I seriously question his fitness to be called an expert on anything and God only knows how he achieved a senior position in any organisation.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,191
    Scott_P said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Corbyn was a disaster a year ago. He is a disaster now. In a year, he will still be a disaster.

    And in all 3 cases he looks less of a disaster than Brexit
    There's no hope for some people...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    williamglenn said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    @Luckyguy1983 Those dastardly Russians do seem to be remarkably interested in wikileaks for some reason:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635?rm=eu

    I have a problem with the way this is being presented as if there is proof that Russian intelligence obtained the source materials and altered them before release - which would be incredibly serious.

    In fact it seems that no-one is questioning the authenticity of wikileaks' data and this is simply a case of journalistic misinterpretation, whether deliberate or through incompetence.
    The fact is, they don't need to change anything, because the bad stuff is there! And if someone wanted to leak stuff about Russia being a corrupt kleptocracy, it would be there too. All propaganda needs these days is a collection of facts that support one argument and ommission of everything that doesn't support that narrative.

    In fact scratch that last - I suspect it's always been that way.
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/wikileaks-syria-russia-bank-email-missing
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
    Was he 'the man from the PRU'?
    Yes. He was also the man who setup the infamous FSA that failed us.

    "In 1997 Davies was appointed Chairman of the newly established Financial Services Authority, serving until 2003."*

    Also "From 2003 to 2011 Davies served as Director of the London School of Economics and Political Science. He stepped down from the position on 3 March 2011 following concern over the institution's decision to accept funding from a foundation controlled by the Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif, and other LSE Libya Links" *wikipedia
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited October 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Corbyn was a disaster a year ago. He is a disaster now. In a year, he will still be a disaster.

    And in all 3 cases he looks less of a disaster than Brexit
    Clearly unhinged. Joined the socialists.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
    The sadly expected response.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Jonathan said:

    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    That's just arse covering bullshit. You can build confidence without a commentary. The truth is they say nothing because there is nothing to say, zip. Sweet Fa. It's all a bluff. They have no clue. The most generous interpretation is that the government hopes maybe to engineer a clue by March.

    Criminal really.
    Get some fresh air dear, you’re ranting…
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    It'd be funny if, after a tortuous and forensic inquiry, the government were to choose something other than H3.
    It'd be hilarious if they chose Boris Island. But the inquiry involved experts, and we all know how we're supposed to feel about experts now ...

    Howard Davies did advocate the Euro....... Now he advocates Heathrow. Is Davies an expert on either matter?
    Was he 'the man from the PRU'?
    Yes. He was also the man who setup the infamous FSA that failed us.

    "In 1997 Davies was appointed Chairman of the newly established Financial Services Authority, serving until 2003."*

    Also "From 2003 to 2011 Davies served as Director of the London School of Economics and Political Science. He stepped down from the position on 3 March 2011 following concern over the institution's decision to accept funding from a foundation controlled by the Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif, and other LSE Libya Links" *wikipedia
    Safe pair of hands.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,796
    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    article 50 concluded or triggered? The conclusion of article 50 is us leaving the EU for something (unknown) 2 years after triggering it.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Ben Shreckinger of "Politico" looks at Trump's narrow win options as the clock runs down :

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/clinton-trump-election-countdown-polls-230212
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016
    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I would have thought that the question isn't who found out about it, or who released it, but is it true, otherwise we are just indulging in shooting messengers. If someone has broken the law, they have broken the law no matter how unsavoury the source, see Rotherham, BNP.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If the tweets I'm reading are correct, Theresa May is giving a lesson in how to be utterly non-committal on Brexit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    SeanT said:

    ‏@faisalislam 2m2 minutes ago
    Edward Leigh just asked if it was the PM's end strategy that UK should have a free trade area with the EU - she said yes...


    It's gonna be EFTA, but maybe with a different name.

    Free European Trade Area. Feta?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    But remainers want a running commentary because a) it gives a target to shoot at, but much more importantly because b) it maximises the chances of failure and hence gloating, finger pointing, and saying "i told you so" (while their country burns), its all rather sad.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    On free trade: any deal requires EU agreement (probably QMV). The EU will want us to have a worse deal, so there may well be strings attached. Particularly depends on whether nation-states have the whip hand, or the bureaucracy of Brussels. The former would be more helpful to us.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Big news of the day seems to be an episode of Poldark apparently.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Jonathan, counter-proposal would be Freedom of Movement, and Goods European, or FROMAGE.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    ‏@faisalislam 2m2 minutes ago
    Edward Leigh just asked if it was the PM's end strategy that UK should have a free trade area with the EU - she said yes...


    It's gonna be EFTA, but maybe with a different name.

    Free European Trade Area. Feta?
    Will it come down to a choice between hard and soft cheese?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Jonathan said:

    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    That's just arse covering bullshit. You can build confidence without a commentary. The truth is they say nothing because there is nothing to say, zip. Sweet Fa. It's all a bluff. They have no clue. The most generous interpretation is that the government hopes maybe to engineer a clue by March.

    Criminal really.
    Bollo*ks. They say nothing because discussions haven't started, and won't until Article 50 is served, so they don't know what other people's positions are, and what is available, and their opposite numbers in the EU have similarly been taking precautions and giving instructions to see that their position doesn't leak either.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    eek said:

    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    article 50 concluded or triggered? The conclusion of article 50 is us leaving the EU for something (unknown) 2 years after triggering it.
    After article 50 has concluded can formal trade agreements with other countries be made. My apols for being unclear.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/790573904435748865
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Indigo said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I would have thought that the question isn't who found out about it, or who released it, but is it true, otherwise we are just indulging in shooting messengers. If someone has broken the law, they have broken the law no matter how unsavoury the source, see Rotherham, BNP.
    The problem is the credibility of the messenger affects the credibility of the message. If the messenger is repeatedly dishonest or disingenuous then there is a "boy who cried wolf" effect.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    ToryJim said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence

    This should be good:

    we will bring forward specific proposals over the next few weeks which would keep Scotland in the single market even if the rest of the UK leaves.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/24/theresa-may-hosts-brexit-summit-for-scottish-welsh-and-northern-irish-governments-politics-live
    Not sure that is constitutionally possible.
    Not in a United Kingdom - wee Mrs McTurnip is nothing if not transparent....
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/790573904435748865

    Yup
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    Indigo said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I would have thought that the question isn't who found out about it, or who released it, but is it true, otherwise we are just indulging in shooting messengers. If someone has broken the law, they have broken the law no matter how unsavoury the source, see Rotherham, BNP.
    Yes and no. There are several aspects, including is it true, is it selective, is it accurate? There are plenty of ways information can be presented in order to drive a narrative that is not necessarily supported by the information; and that is why the route it takes to publication matters.

    I am not a lawyer, and am often not in a position to cast views of legality or illegality on topics, especially when they are complex. By presenting information in a certain way they can paint a picture that might make the layperson, such as myself, take an incorrect or biased view.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    SeanT said:

    ‏@faisalislam 2m2 minutes ago
    Edward Leigh just asked if it was the PM's end strategy that UK should have a free trade area with the EU - she said yes...


    It's gonna be EFTA, but maybe with a different name.

    Or it could be a UK-EU Trade Agreement. Like EU-Canada, only actually getting ratified ;)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Indigo said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I would have thought that the question isn't who found out about it, or who released it, but is it true, otherwise we are just indulging in shooting messengers. If someone has broken the law, they have broken the law no matter how unsavoury the source, see Rotherham, BNP.
    The problem is the credibility of the messenger affects the credibility of the message. If the messenger is repeatedly dishonest or disingenuous then there is a "boy who cried wolf" effect.
    Who has credibility these days? Name one organisation you'd trust to give you the whole unvarnished truth.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SimonStClare said:

    eek said:

    SimonStClare said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: Corbyn: world is concluding that Britain hasnt got a clue... not soft or hard Brexit but chaotic Brexit

    @faisalislam: Corbyn says "Brexit indecision" is "starting to hit the economy severely"

    Brexit is even making Corbyn look good...

    Indeed. After four months we have a soundbite and maybe a date when something might happen. And that's it. One wonders what the government does all day. Golf? Lunch?
    The PM has said there will not be a running commentary, informal discussion will continue but nothing final can be agreed until 2 years after article 50 is concluded.

    But you know this very well and your oft repeated meme is just boring drivel.
    article 50 concluded or triggered? The conclusion of article 50 is us leaving the EU for something (unknown) 2 years after triggering it.
    After article 50 has concluded can formal trade agreements with other countries be made. My apols for being unclear.
    My understanding is that we can start negotiating other trade agreements now, so long as they are not intended to enter into force until after leaving the EU.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/790573904435748865

    No chance of a vacuum with the three Brexiteers' hot air production.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    CarlottaVance said:

    ToryJim said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    wee Mrs McTurnip plays a blinder

    firstly by pissing off her biggest trading partner and then by insisting the EU will also want a Wallonia on our side of the fence

    This should be good:

    we will bring forward specific proposals over the next few weeks which would keep Scotland in the single market even if the rest of the UK leaves.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/24/theresa-may-hosts-brexit-summit-for-scottish-welsh-and-northern-irish-governments-politics-live
    Not sure that is constitutionally possible.
    Not in a United Kingdom - wee Mrs McTurnip is nothing if not transparent....
    Given what SeanT has said, I suspect Sturgeon knows May is heading from free market access, and wants this to look as if she's won a big battle.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2016
    JackW said:

    Ben Shreckinger of "Politico" looks at Trump's narrow win options as the clock runs down :

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/clinton-trump-election-countdown-polls-230212

    Every article I read on Trump is so harshly dismissive of him and his movement, its impossible to see how the chasms created by the this election can ever be breached.

    There is no attempt whatsoever to understand this phenomenon, what lies behind it and what it might take to bring the millions that will vote for him back onside.

    THose that do back Trump can expect no quarter from Hillary, if she wins.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    williamglenn said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    ‏@faisalislam 2m2 minutes ago
    Edward Leigh just asked if it was the PM's end strategy that UK should have a free trade area with the EU - she said yes...


    It's gonna be EFTA, but maybe with a different name.

    Free European Trade Area. Feta?
    Will it come down to a choice between hard and soft cheese?

    How about BRIE - British Regional Import/Export area.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Indigo said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    https://twitter.com/AdamSmith_usa/status/790366675216502784

    According to the replies it was already up on Wikileaks' website before they tweeted it. Those dastardly Russians and their on the ball journos putting the news out as it happens eh? #EvilUncleVlad
    Your faith in Wikileaks is only exceeded by your faith in the infallibility of Russian cruise missiles. ;)

    But on a serious point: the Internet is just the newest battleground for nations. It is cheaper than missiles or planes, and favours governments that control their media and websites strongly - such as Russia or China. It disadvantages those where the media is freer.
    I would have thought that the question isn't who found out about it, or who released it, but is it true, otherwise we are just indulging in shooting messengers. If someone has broken the law, they have broken the law no matter how unsavoury the source, see Rotherham, BNP.
    The problem is the credibility of the messenger affects the credibility of the message. If the messenger is repeatedly dishonest or disingenuous then there is a "boy who cried wolf" effect.
    Largely though the messages have been leaks of emails, the provenance of which does not appear to have been contested. One could well argue that the people are of minor significance, or poorly informed, but those arguments have not been made, and why would they be when waving them away and pointing at squirrels appears to have been an effective response.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    https://twitter.com/BRANDONWARDELL/status/790570638901510146
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,333
    Pulpstar said:

    Will Heathrow Runway 3 be built before we're out of the European Union ?

    2024, so probably not, unless the EU drags the talks in for 8 years.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    MTimT said:

    My understanding is that we can start negotiating other trade agreements now, so long as they are not intended to enter into force until after leaving the EU.

    Yes (although some EU extremists claim we can't even do that).

    However, in practice, we can't have substantial discussions with anyone until the outline of our deal with the EU is clear, for the very simple reason that that is the first question we'd be asked. We might even end up in the EU customs union, in which case there won't be any trade deals other than those the EU has set up.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    taffys said:

    JackW said:

    Ben Shreckinger of "Politico" looks at Trump's narrow win options as the clock runs down :

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/clinton-trump-election-countdown-polls-230212

    Every article I read on Trump is so harshly dismissive of him and his movement, its impossible to see how the chasms created by the this election can ever be breached.

    There is no attempt whatsoever to understand this phenomenon, what lies behind it and what it might take to bring the millions that will vote for him back onside.

    THose that do back Trump can expect no quarter from Hillary, if she wins.
    A) I thought you weren't going to comment?

    B) We should be dismissive of racist crazy people like trump who boast about sexual assault

    C) 'No Quarter'? Don't be silly. She isn't a vindictive person, unlike 'Texting at 3AM' Trump
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @andyburnhammp: That's interesting. In response to my question, PM backtracks on idea of "hard Brexit". Cold shoulder at EU summit must have had an effect.

    Until the headbangers start whining. Expect the tone at PMQs to be HARDER...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,911
    MTimT said:

    williamglenn said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    ‏@faisalislam 2m2 minutes ago
    Edward Leigh just asked if it was the PM's end strategy that UK should have a free trade area with the EU - she said yes...


    It's gonna be EFTA, but maybe with a different name.

    Free European Trade Area. Feta?
    Will it come down to a choice between hard and soft cheese?

    How about BRIE - British Regional Import/Export area.
    Britain could continue full participation in EDAM - European Deals And Machinations.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Big news of the day seems to be an episode of Poldark apparently.

    It was quite shocking. Not only was the great hero, Ross Poldark, unfaithful to the lovely Demelza, he possibly did it with a rape, or something close.

    I'd call that brave scriptwriting. Or suicidal. Next Sunday's viewing figures will reveal....

    Through the roof.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,721
    FPT
    Alanbrooke said:

    » show previous quotes
    which is also why Mrs May is correct in stopping McWallonia from having a UK trade veto.

    She will rue the day Alan
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    Pulpstar said:

    Big news of the day seems to be an episode of Poldark apparently.

    I was expecting a bit if a whitewash, and it was. The book was written in a different time, where what is depicted - and it is not 100% clear - would not have been seen as rape by many people. But it is vital point in the books: it increases animosity between the various lead characters. I'm not sure this version will have quite the same effect.

    Interestingly, the 1970s series is much more faithful to the book.

    I have little time for Winston Graham's son's argument: his father also wrote a very dubious scene in Marnie that might not withstand modern views. (An excellent book, BTW, made by Hitchcock into a terrible film).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37749637
This discussion has been closed.