Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A bad GE2015 omen for the Green party: It loses council by-

SystemSystem Posts: 12,179
edited July 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A bad GE2015 omen for the Green party: It loses council by-election to LAB in Caroline Lucas’s Brighton constituency

One of the most sensational results at GE2010 was the victory by the then Green party leader, Caroline Lucas, in Brighton Pavillion. This was a huge breakthrough for the party and followed years of work on the ground winning council seats and building up an organisation.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Would it really matter ? Surely the Greens would be "simpatico" with Labour on almost all policy items of substance?

    Every pound spent on defeating her is a pound labour isn't spending in the midlands on winning tory marginals.

    Would appear a total waste of time and effort.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    I think Labour probably will gain Brighton Pavilion in 2015, but it will be not as easy as some might think. Caroline Lucas has not been afraid to criticise the Green council for its local kerfuffles and thereby establish a bit of distance between her record as an MP and the local council's unpopularity.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    my source in Hanover posits that its mostly about school bus charges. GE could be different
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Sorry to go off topic so early, but...

    The consensus seems to be that politicians are boring, indistinguishable from each other, too much private school PPE, too afraid to have opinions of their own for fear of scaring the horses...

    All this may be true but on the (admittedly flimsy) evidence of listening to both the spectator and new statesman podcasts, it may well also be that the media framing the political landscape are just as partisan, closed-minded, boring and posh as the politicians. How can politicans hope to be interesting when no-one has the brains to ask intelligent questions, or posit alternative ideas?

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Would it really matter ? Surely the Greens would be "simpatico" with Labour on almost all policy items of substance?

    Every pound spent on defeating her is a pound labour isn't spending in the midlands on winning tory marginals.

    Would appear a total waste of time and effort.

    Dunno, parties like to defend their turf against competitors. Somebody selling something a similar product to you is a bigger threat than somebody selling a different product to a different market...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    On topic they have some local issues but in return they get double-incumbency. Nationally.Labour's main gain on 2010 seems to be LibDems, but you'd think Lucas would get her fair share of those.

    If they can beat Labour to the cheezed-off LibDems they might have a chance in Norwich South, too, factoring in the loss of Charles Clarke's incumbency.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    Would it really matter ? Surely the Greens would be "simpatico" with Labour on almost all policy items of substance?

    Every pound spent on defeating her is a pound labour isn't spending in the midlands on winning tory marginals.

    Would appear a total waste of time and effort.

    Dunno, parties like to defend their turf against competitors. Somebody selling something a similar product to you is a bigger threat than somebody selling a different product to a different market...
    You could be right, it's FPTP after all.

    In a more representative voting system it'd make sense to nurture coalition partners, here it makes sense to smother them at birth. (See Tory / UKIP)

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Latest YouGov/The Sun results 11th July - Con 32%, Lab 40%, LD 10%, UKIP 13%; APP -31
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Class divide in boys' reading skills seen in Pisa scores

    The brightest boys from poor homes in England and Scotland are at least two and a half years behind in reading compared with those from the richest homes, a study suggests.

    Research for the Sutton Trust educational charity says Scotland's gap is the highest in the developed world, while England's is the second highest.

    In Finland, Denmark, Germany and Canada, the gap is equal to 15 months.......

    The study was carried out by John Jerrim at the Institute of Education, University of London, who analysed scores for 15-year-olds in Pisa tests carried out for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

    He says the reading skills of England's youngsters as a whole are heavily linked to their socio-economic background, but that this gap is average for countries in the OECD.

    However, he suggests when you look just at high achievers - the brightest in each socio-economic group - England and Scotland perform worse than other countries for boys and are "close to the bottom" for girls, out of the 32 nations included in the tests.

    However, he warns there is some "uncertainty" around the rankings, because of variations in numbers of pupils taking part in the various countries and in sampling methods.

    In England, he says, the gap is equivalent to 30 months (two years and six months) of schooling for boys, while in Scotland the gap amounts to nearly three years (two years, 11 months).

    Among the brightest girls, the gap in England is two years and four months.

    The Sutton Trust is calling for better support for highly able children in state-funded schools in England.

    The charity's chairman Sir Peter Lampl said: "By not stretching our most able students from all backgrounds, we are not only failing them, we are reducing our ability to compete globally.

    "Moreover, such under-achievement perpetuates those inequalities which make it so hard for bright children to move up in society.

    "That's why it is so important that there is a targeted scheme that ensures that those with high potential from low and middle income backgrounds are identified and helped to thrive," he added.

    England's schools' watchdog, Ofsted, says its inspectors are to put more weight on how much progress is made by poorer children in schools.

    Its head, Sir Michael Wilshaw, recently said "invisible" poor children were being let down by schools in leafy suburbs and coastal towns, while schools in many cities were closing the achievement gap.

    A culture of low expectations meant bright pupils were not being stretched in some schools, he said.

    The government in England is giving schools more funding for each pupil from a low-income home - about £600 per pupil now, rising to £900 in September. This is known as the Pupil Premium.

    A spokeswoman for the Department for Education said the Sutton Trust report showed "the appalling attainment gap" that had been "a feature of our education system for far too long" and that government reforms would improve standards.

    "The new phonics check helps teachers identify children who are struggling with reading at an earlier stage and we are targeting more funding at disadvantaged children through the Pupil Premium," she added.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23271555

    It is going to take a long time to redress Labour's education legacy of low pupil aspiration which resulted in the above state of affairs.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    @Financier

    Actually, literacy rates have substantially improved over the last 20 years.

    This story is not about children struggling to read, it's about high achievers. The issue is much more likely to be about access to books and encouragement to read away from school. And that has been so for many a long year.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2013
    @Tim


    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889

    @Financier

    Actually, literacy rates have substantially improved over the last 20 years.

    This story is not about children struggling to read, it's about high achievers. The issue is much more likely to be about access to books and encouragement to read away from school. And that has been so for many a long year.

    It's a shame that any literacy improvement (source please) has not been down to our schools.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17368311
    The latest Programme for International Student Assessment survey, in 2009, showed the UK had slipped to joint 23rd place in a global assessment of literacy, he said.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7691919/Fifth-of-school-leavers-illiterate-and-innumerate.html
    The number of 16- to 19-year-olds rendered functionally illiterate or innumerate has failed to improve over the last two decades, the study said, despite billions spent attempting to raise standards in the three-Rs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    Roger said:

    @Tim

    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........

    Anecdote alert:
    A friend of mine has a child with (genuine) food intolerances (*), which her school refuses to deal with meaning she cannot eat anything produced at the school. Fortunately they are good parents and they provide excellent packed lunches and even (shock, horror) walk the kids to school.

    It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents.

    (*) From memory, nuts, mushrooms and milk.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    @Financier

    Actually, literacy rates have substantially improved over the last 20 years.

    This story is not about children struggling to read, it's about high achievers. The issue is much more likely to be about access to books and encouragement to read away from school. And that has been so for many a long year.

    It's a shame that any literacy improvement (source please) has not been down to our schools.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17368311
    The latest Programme for International Student Assessment survey, in 2009, showed the UK had slipped to joint 23rd place in a global assessment of literacy, he said.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7691919/Fifth-of-school-leavers-illiterate-and-innumerate.html
    The number of 16- to 19-year-olds rendered functionally illiterate or innumerate has failed to improve over the last two decades, the study said, despite billions spent attempting to raise standards in the three-Rs.


    Actually, there have been significant steps forward at primary level:

    http://www.poverty.org.uk/25/index.shtml





  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    @Jessop

    "It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents."

    My prep school didn't accept food intolerances. They just left it in front of you until you became tolerant
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    tim said:

    Roger said:

    @Tim

    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........

    Anecdote alert:
    A friend of mine has a child with (genuine) food intolerances (*), which her school refuses to deal with meaning she cannot eat anything produced at the school. Fortunately they are good parents and they provide excellent packed lunches and even (shock, horror) walk the kids to school.

    It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents.

    (*) From memory, nuts, mushrooms and milk.
    A school using nuts in its food and not catering for lactose intolerance sounds like an unusual school.

    It may sound like an unusual school, but it's happening. Perhaps the mushrooms are the problem as well?

    It's good that school meals seem to have improved markedly over the last few years.

    And nuts are not necessarily absent from school foods, especially in trace amounts. As an example:
    Nuts and nut derivatives are not knowingly used as a part of a dish/product, but it is not possible to declare that all products used in school lunches are ‘nut free’ because the majority of suppliers and food manufacturers now place disclaimers upon their packaging to indicate their product, ‘may have unknowingly come into contact with nuts’
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/learning/schools-colleges-and-academies/school-meals/allergies-intolerances-and-special-diets/
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If school meals had a long track record for being brilliant, there might be a case for restricting parental choice. But since they were famously bad for generations, I think we might just possibly require schools to do more to advertise any recent improvements first.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Financier said:

    Research for the Sutton Trust educational charity says Scotland's gap is the highest in the developed world, while England's is the second highest.

    In England, he says, the gap is equivalent to 30 months (two years and six months) of schooling for boys, while in Scotland the gap amounts to nearly three years (two years, 11 months).

    If only Education was run from Edinburgh!

    Oh.......

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, 6/5 for Labour in Brighton Pavilion is not a bad price, but the time lag makes it an unexciting bet for now. And it may well be available for a while yet.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Roger said:

    @Tim

    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........

    Anecdote alert:
    A friend of mine has a child with (genuine) food intolerances (*), which her school refuses to deal with meaning she cannot eat anything produced at the school. Fortunately they are good parents and they provide excellent packed lunches and even (shock, horror) walk the kids to school.

    It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents.

    (*) From memory, nuts, mushrooms and milk.
    A school using nuts in its food and not catering for lactose intolerance sounds like an unusual school.

    It may sound like an unusual school, but it's happening. Perhaps the mushrooms are the problem as well?

    It's good that school meals seem to have improved markedly over the last few years.

    And nuts are not necessarily absent from school foods, especially in trace amounts. As an example:
    Nuts and nut derivatives are not knowingly used as a part of a dish/product, but it is not possible to declare that all products used in school lunches are ‘nut free’ because the majority of suppliers and food manufacturers now place disclaimers upon their packaging to indicate their product, ‘may have unknowingly come into contact with nuts’
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/learning/schools-colleges-and-academies/school-meals/allergies-intolerances-and-special-diets/
    Standard disclaimer

    A school, refusing to cater for nut allergies sounds like an urban myth to me.



    I suspect that mushrooms are the issue - they are the pretty standard veggie alternative.

    But why, in principle, should a kid be forced to eat what the school tells them to rather than their parent?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    The latest 2015 GE ARSE projection for Brighton Pavillion is a Green HOLD.

    Whilst local by-elections may give a flavour of the political scene within a constituency they are far from reliably indicative of GE results two years down the line.

    Lucas will likely get a first term incumbency bounce, plenty of lead up publicity to the GE and also will be one of the few faces of the Greens with plenty of media spotlight during the campaign itself. She also has the advantage of facing a Labour candidate as her main rival.

    So .... move along the (environmentally friendly) bus please.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop

    "Schools become 'nut-free zones'"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3682659.stm

    That's from 2004

    Beware parental anecdotes about why their child is special and different.
    Often just an excuse for send their kids in with crap in a lunchbox.

    I know one idiot who claims their kid is allergic to potatoes so they send them in with shit in a box.
    The same person also thinks their child should be allowed to wear their new trainers to school

    The diagnosis is that the parent can't say no to the spoilt fat brat with the designer trainers and the box full of additives who manges to eat potatoes from the chip shop.

    Should we abandon school uniforms to pander to these people?

    You may know idiots like that - I do as well. Too many people confuse preference for intolerance. But some people sadly are afflicted by allergies (*), and casually rejecting their troubles as you are is rather worrying.

    I know these people Tim, and it is genuine. I bake for them occasionally, and am very careful about what goes into the food and the cleanliness of the utensils / chopping boards before I cook. I have also seen the child suffering the effects of eating mushrooms. They are also about as far away from your description as it is possible to get.

    And if you drill down from the headline, you see that it is schools are increasingly becoming nut-free zones. But note that seemingly does not include nut traces.

    (*) I was allergic / intolerant to E102 Tartrazine as a kid / teenager. This was a bit of a bugger as it was in many common products such as ice cream. Fortunately it is rare to find it now, but it has a minor effect if I eat it still, mainly when abroad.

    It was not nice, but fortunately nowhere near life-threatening.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Roger said:

    @Tim

    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........

    Anecdote alert:
    A friend of mine has a child with (genuine) food intolerances (*), which her school refuses to deal with meaning she cannot eat anything produced at the school. Fortunately they are good parents and they provide excellent packed lunches and even (shock, horror) walk the kids to school.

    It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents.

    (*) From memory, nuts, mushrooms and milk.
    A school using nuts in its food and not catering for lactose intolerance sounds like an unusual school.

    It may sound like an unusual school, but it's happening. Perhaps the mushrooms are the problem as well?

    It's good that school meals seem to have improved markedly over the last few years.

    And nuts are not necessarily absent from school foods, especially in trace amounts. As an example:
    Nuts and nut derivatives are not knowingly used as a part of a dish/product, but it is not possible to declare that all products used in school lunches are ‘nut free’ because the majority of suppliers and food manufacturers now place disclaimers upon their packaging to indicate their product, ‘may have unknowingly come into contact with nuts’
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/learning/schools-colleges-and-academies/school-meals/allergies-intolerances-and-special-diets/
    Standard disclaimer

    A school, refusing to cater for nut allergies sounds like an urban myth to me.



    And mushrooms as well?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @tim For schools to lecture parents about quality control in school lunches is bloody cheeky. They're the ones who cheerfully served up crap for generations, and would be doing so still if left to their own devices. You can bet your life that if school meals were made compulsory, the quality would swallow dive again, as the incentive to improve would be largely taken away.

    A bit of humility on the part of schools is called for, and if they are sincere in their conversion on the subject, they need to prove it. And advertise that for themselves.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop

    "Schools become 'nut-free zones'"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3682659.stm

    That's from 2004

    Beware parental anecdotes about why their child is special and different.
    Often just an excuse for send their kids in with crap in a lunchbox.

    I know one idiot who claims their kid is allergic to potatoes so they send them in with shit in a box.
    The same person also thinks their child should be allowed to wear their new trainers to school

    The diagnosis is that the parent can't say no to the spoilt fat brat with the designer trainers and the box full of additives who manges to eat potatoes from the chip shop.

    Should we abandon school uniforms to pander to these people?

    You may know idiots like that - I do as well. Too many people confuse preference for intolerance. But some people sadly are afflicted by allergies (*), and casually rejecting their troubles as you are is rather worrying.

    I know these people Tim, and it is genuine. I bake for them occasionally, and am very careful about what goes into the food and the cleanliness of the utensils / chopping boards before I cook. I have also seen the child suffering the effects of eating mushrooms. They are also about as far away from your description as it is possible to get.

    And if you drill down from the headline, you see that it is schools are increasingly becoming nut-free zones. But note that seemingly does not include nut traces.

    (*) I was allergic / intolerant to E102 Tartrazine as a kid / teenager. This was a bit of a bugger as it was in many common products such as ice cream. Fortunately it is rare to find it now, but it has a minor effect if I eat it still, mainly when abroad.

    It was not nice, but fortunately nowhere near life-threatening.
    There's a fascinating company in France called DBV Technologies that is doing some very interesting work in food allergen desensitisation.

    It's not an easy area to work in because food allergies don't appear to be IgE modulated and the reactions are so severe that there are no second chances.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    I struggle to greatly care about the future of Caroline Lucas. If she has added to the gaiety or wisdom of the nation since being elected I must have missed it. Normally almost anyone would be better than Labour but in her case I might make an exception.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    Charles said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    Roger said:

    @Tim

    "And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23270715

    Simple, but with huge benefits.

    And those parents who go on about "my little Cressida won't eat rice" -send social services round, or better, clamp their cars parked on the double yellow lines and fine them huge amounts - it's the same people.

    Always.

    And they waddle.
    So they have to park close to the entrance.
    Which is why they waddle."

    Made me LOL! I'd just add crushing their 4x4's into art works.........

    Anecdote alert:
    A friend of mine has a child with (genuine) food intolerances (*), which her school refuses to deal with meaning she cannot eat anything produced at the school. Fortunately they are good parents and they provide excellent packed lunches and even (shock, horror) walk the kids to school.

    It would be interesting to see how schools cope with the kids who do have genuine intolerances.

    So it is not just about picky children or parents.

    (*) From memory, nuts, mushrooms and milk.
    A school using nuts in its food and not catering for lactose intolerance sounds like an unusual school.

    It may sound like an unusual school, but it's happening. Perhaps the mushrooms are the problem as well?

    It's good that school meals seem to have improved markedly over the last few years.

    And nuts are not necessarily absent from school foods, especially in trace amounts. As an example:
    Nuts and nut derivatives are not knowingly used as a part of a dish/product, but it is not possible to declare that all products used in school lunches are ‘nut free’ because the majority of suppliers and food manufacturers now place disclaimers upon their packaging to indicate their product, ‘may have unknowingly come into contact with nuts’
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/learning/schools-colleges-and-academies/school-meals/allergies-intolerances-and-special-diets/
    Standard disclaimer

    A school, refusing to cater for nut allergies sounds like an urban myth to me.

    I suspect that mushrooms are the issue - they are the pretty standard veggie alternative.

    But why, in principle, should a kid be forced to eat what the school tells them to rather than their parent?



    If the kids eat rubbish in their packed lunch, and most do, it will affect their ability to concentrate and their general behaviour. This will have a knock on effect across the rest of their class.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    BTW .... the next 2015 GE ARSE projection will be published exclusively on PB on Monday.

    You lucky, lucky people.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop

    "Schools become 'nut-free zones'"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3682659.stm

    That's from 2004

    Beware parental anecdotes about why their child is special and different.
    Often just an excuse for send their kids in with crap in a lunchbox.

    I know one idiot who claims their kid is allergic to potatoes so they send them in with shit in a box.
    The same person also thinks their child should be allowed to wear their new trainers to school

    The diagnosis is that the parent can't say no to the spoilt fat brat with the designer trainers and the box full of additives who manges to eat potatoes from the chip shop.

    Should we abandon school uniforms to pander to these people?

    You may know idiots like that - I do as well. Too many people confuse preference for intolerance. But some people sadly are afflicted by allergies (*), and casually rejecting their troubles as you are is rather worrying.

    I know these people Tim, and it is genuine. I bake for them occasionally, and am very careful about what goes into the food and the cleanliness of the utensils / chopping boards before I cook. I have also seen the child suffering the effects of eating mushrooms. They are also about as far away from your description as it is possible to get.

    And if you drill down from the headline, you see that it is schools are increasingly becoming nut-free zones. But note that seemingly does not include nut traces.

    (*) I was allergic / intolerant to E102 Tartrazine as a kid / teenager. This was a bit of a bugger as it was in many common products such as ice cream. Fortunately it is rare to find it now, but it has a minor effect if I eat it still, mainly when abroad.

    It was not nice, but fortunately nowhere near life-threatening.

    It's not unreasonable for parents to send their child in with a packed lunch if they can show that there is a specific medical reason for doing so. If they can, then they should also agree with the school the broad content of what it will contain to ensure that it is nutritionally balanced and able to sustain the child's performance throughout the post-lunch period.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    antifrank said:

    @tim For schools to lecture parents about quality control in school lunches is bloody cheeky. They're the ones who cheerfully served up crap for generations, and would be doing so still if left to their own devices. You can bet your life that if school meals were made compulsory, the quality would swallow dive again, as the incentive to improve would be largely taken away.

    A bit of humility on the part of schools is called for, and if they are sincere in their conversion on the subject, they need to prove it. And advertise that for themselves.

    They do advertise it:

    http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/schoolmeals

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    If the kids eat rubbish in their packed lunch, and most do, it will affect their ability to concentrate and their general behaviour. This will have a knock on effect across the rest of their class.

    That sounds like a PhD thesis waiting to happen.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    LAB lead up from 5 to 8 in today's YouGov/Sun poll
    Con 32% nc
    Lab 40% +3
    LD 10% - 1
    UKIP 13 +1

    Funny - this wasn't Tweeted early by the Sun
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Schools meals vs packed lunches -- there are genuine issues, not just around allergies but also about religious dietary laws. For instance, Sikhs may object to eating halal meat, which is now common in school meals.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661


    If the kids eat rubbish in their packed lunch, and most do, it will affect their ability to concentrate and their general behaviour. This will have a knock on effect across the rest of their class.

    That sounds like a PhD thesis waiting to happen.

    Loads of work has been done on the links between nutrition and attainment in schools. Of course, the Messiah is not convinced:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200465/Education-Secretary-Gove-accused-conflict-school-meals-party-accepts-50-000-Dominos-Pizza.html

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,957
    It'd be interesting if we had more than one daily tracker. That way we could see how often they both agreed/disagreed.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Give it time but we'll soon see Social Services raiding homes in the early hours to confiscate plastic lunch boxes, take the kids into "care" and prosecute the parents for reckless endangerment under the new School Lunches (Prevention of Obesity) Act.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Since this thread has gone all medical - can anyone tell me why pigs and mice are closest to us when it comes to doing experiments etc
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    Schools meals vs packed lunches -- there are genuine issues, not just around allergies but also about religious dietary laws. For instance, Sikhs may object to eating halal meat, which is now common in school meals.

    There's no reason to ban packed lunches. But parents who send their kids in with them should have to ensure that they meet defined nutritional standards. It's not fair on everyone else if they don't.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    @SO

    Why is it "not fair"?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,957
    Plato said:

    Since this thread has gone all medical - can anyone tell me why pigs and mice are closest to us when it comes to doing experiments etc

    I think its to do with how similar the genome is, and for mice how short their lifespan is so you can look at many generations in a short period of time.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889

    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop

    "Schools become 'nut-free zones'"

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3682659.stm

    That's from 2004

    Beware parental anecdotes about why their child is special and different.
    Often just an excuse for send their kids in with crap in a lunchbox.

    I know one idiot who claims their kid is allergic to potatoes so they send them in with shit in a box.
    The same person also thinks their child should be allowed to wear their new trainers to school

    The diagnosis is that the parent can't say no to the spoilt fat brat with the designer trainers and the box full of additives who manges to eat potatoes from the chip shop.

    Should we abandon school uniforms to pander to these people?

    You may know idiots like that - I do as well. Too many people confuse preference for intolerance. But some people sadly are afflicted by allergies (*), and casually rejecting their troubles as you are is rather worrying.

    I know these people Tim, and it is genuine. I bake for them occasionally, and am very careful about what goes into the food and the cleanliness of the utensils / chopping boards before I cook. I have also seen the child suffering the effects of eating mushrooms. They are also about as far away from your description as it is possible to get.

    And if you drill down from the headline, you see that it is schools are increasingly becoming nut-free zones. But note that seemingly does not include nut traces.

    (*) I was allergic / intolerant to E102 Tartrazine as a kid / teenager. This was a bit of a bugger as it was in many common products such as ice cream. Fortunately it is rare to find it now, but it has a minor effect if I eat it still, mainly when abroad.

    It was not nice, but fortunately nowhere near life-threatening.

    It's not unreasonable for parents to send their child in with a packed lunch if they can show that there is a specific medical reason for doing so. If they can, then they should also agree with the school the broad content of what it will contain to ensure that it is nutritionally balanced and able to sustain the child's performance throughout the post-lunch period.
    That is a much better and balanced reply than Tim's rubbish. I might be seeing the mother later on or this weekend - I'll make sure that the the school 'refused'.

    In such cases of multiple allergies, I think it's fairly sensible to come to an arrangement. And the arrangement should be based on a management plan from the GP. If the school cannot meet the management plan, then other arrangements are vital.

    Genuine allergies / intolerances are nasty and in extremis can be life threatening. It's sad to see people taking them so lightly.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Financier said:

    Class divide in boys' reading skills seen in Pisa scores

    ...

    It is going to take a long time to redress Labour's education legacy of low pupil aspiration which resulted in the above state of affairs.

    A very long time if Gove is left in place. There is no reason to suppose this has anything to do with Labour or with low expectations, and it is certainly not a recent phenomenon. What it does suggest is that a lot of what was previously blamed on race is actually due to class. Ah, but since New Labour, no-one believes in class any more.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    LAB lead up from 5 to 8 in today's YouGov/Sun poll
    Con 32% nc
    Lab 40% +3
    LD 10% - 1
    UKIP 13 +1

    Funny - this wasn't Tweeted early by the Sun

    The "Sun" were holding the news whilst awaiting your new thread Mike. You can't be accusing the old current bun of bias surely ??

    BTW rumours continue to circulate that in your heyday you were a "page seven fella" in the "Sun" with only a betting slip covering your dignity and with the headline "Winning Here".

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    @SO

    Why is it "not fair"?

    Because kids who have not eaten a proper lunch are more likely to be disruptive and/or requiring greater attention from the teacher.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541
    Charles said:

    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.

    It's easy to become a parent, not so easy to be a good one, and some don't manage it. On the other hand, the parents are usually very interested in what the kids want and obviously need, and the school is torn between numerous other priorities, no matter how good they are. On balance it does seem to me that schools have a role in keeping an eye out for obvious failings in adequate care, and providing healthy snacks might be a good compromise; enforcing the schools's dietary preference is probably a step too far.

    Would it really matter ? Surely the Greens would be "simpatico" with Labour on almost all policy items of substance?

    Every pound spent on defeating her is a pound labour isn't spending in the midlands on winning tory marginals.

    Would appear a total waste of time and effort.

    Dunno, parties like to defend their turf against competitors. Somebody selling something a similar product to you is a bigger threat than somebody selling a different product to a different market...
    Edmund is right - the Greens are a substantial existential threat to Labour, just as UKIP is to the Tories. If they do really well at a GE, we're stuffed. And I say that as an admirer of a lot of what Caroline does and despite thinking that it's good in principle to have alternative viewpoints to challenge us. FPTP enforces ruthlessness.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2013
    SO

    What guarantee us there that kids will eat the food provided by the school? Do you think kids should be compulsorily fed to make sure there is less chance of them being disruptive?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    @SO

    Why is it "not fair"?

    Because kids who have not eaten a proper lunch are more likely to be disruptive and/or requiring greater attention from the teacher.

    Might you offer an explanation as to why disruption isn't a problem in many third world nations where nutrition is poor but discipline is enforced and teachers highly prized ?

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    Since this thread has gone all medical - can anyone tell me why pigs and mice are closest to us when it comes to doing experiments etc

    I think its to do with how similar the genome is, and for mice how short their lifespan is so you can look at many generations in a short period of time.

    Reminds me of a classic court tale. A pathologist was giving evidence about injuries to the small bones in a victim's neck and how they were consistent with strangulation with considerable force.

    In cross the defence counsel pointed out that all of the expert's experiments had been on rats, not humans. The expert accepted this but maintained that the neck structures in humans and rats were very similar "except that the rat does not have a voice box".

    At this point the Judge intervened and asked: "Is this why rats can't talk?"

    There was a lengthy pause and the expert replied "Yes my Lord, that is one of the reasons."

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,957
    DavidL said:



    There was a lengthy pause and the expert replied "Yes my Lord, that is one of the reasons."

    Wonderful!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541
    Incidentally, today's 8-point Labour lead is accompanied by a few modest improvements in the secondaries, which possibly relate to the union issue (e.g. 3 points up on the double-edged "willing to take unpopular decisions" question). These could also just show a more pro-Labour sample. Overall, Falkirk and its aftermath hasn't affected voting intentions much either way so far and I'd guess it's all seen as a politics process issue and hence not very interesting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.

    What's the difference between that and school uniform

    Or compulsory school meals in the independent sector?
    Two of my kids attend an independent sector school. There are no compulsory school meals. We have, however, had a problem when nutella sandwiches were banned because a child had a nut allergy.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013
    Sky News - St Vince of the Cable and car manufacturers to invest £500M each over 10 years in innovation.

    Royal mail one day, motor trade the next - surely can't be long before Cheshire farming gets the treatment ?!?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2013
    On topic - lets hope so. Other far left parities such as Respect and the BNP have also proved to be a flash in the pan and unable to get reelected after even 1 term.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661

    SO

    What guarantee us there that kids will eat the food provided by the school? Do you think kids should be compulsorily fed to make sure there is less chance of them being disruptive?

    Yes, I think children having a nutrional lunch at school - whether provided by the school or in packed lunch form - should be compulsory.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,661
    JackW said:

    @SO

    Why is it "not fair"?

    Because kids who have not eaten a proper lunch are more likely to be disruptive and/or requiring greater attention from the teacher.

    Might you offer an explanation as to why disruption isn't a problem in many third world nations where nutrition is poor but discipline is enforced and teachers highly prized ?

    I would guess that in many Third World countries kids who go to school eat a more nutritionally balanced meal than a lot of kids who get packed lunches here: fruit and veg are cheaper than processed foods, which are generally unavailable anyway.

  • DavidL said:

    I struggle to greatly care about the future of Caroline Lucas. If she has added to the gaiety or wisdom of the nation since being elected I must have missed it. Normally almost anyone would be better than Labour but in her case I might make an exception.

    Indeed. She is a loathsome spotted reptile, a screeching harpy, a PC tiresome watermelon, a perfect exemplar of the herds of yammering monkeys who feel but seem incapable of thinking and would happily banish us back to the stone ages. Much as her election was damaging to Labour, I think seeing the back of her kind in the House can only be positive for the body politic.

    Damn it all. Just look at the photo of her in the header - I close my case.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Force feeding schoolchildren..doncha just love the lefties.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    tim said:

    DavidL said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.

    What's the difference between that and school uniform

    Or compulsory school meals in the independent sector?
    Two of my kids attend an independent sector school. There are no compulsory school meals. We have, however, had a problem when nutella sandwiches were banned because a child had a nut allergy.

    Banning nutella is sensible.

    Although we stupidly let unvaccinated children in as long as they aren't carrying Nutella sandwiches.

    Not sure they would actually. We certainly had to confirm their innoculations when they joined. State schools probably have less discretion.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,007
    edited July 2013
    A uniquely exquisite conundrum for both sides.

    Are parents:

    a) essentially decent, trying to do best for their children and this unacceptable Statism; or
    b) feckless idiots, irresponsible and in need of guidance to avoid offspring ruin and delinquency?

    Same applies to voting.

    As a small state Tory I go with a) because I trust people.

    I hope Gove agrees with me.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    @SO

    Why is it "not fair"?

    Because kids who have not eaten a proper lunch are more likely to be disruptive and/or requiring greater attention from the teacher.

    Might you offer an explanation as to why disruption isn't a problem in many third world nations where nutrition is poor but discipline is enforced and teachers highly prized ?

    I would guess that in many Third World countries kids who go to school eat a more nutritionally balanced meal than a lot of kids who get packed lunches here: fruit and veg are cheaper than processed foods, which are generally unavailable anyway.

    Really .... really ??

    Surely the problem with many obese kids is not that they are not eating nutritionally but they are scoffing far too much nutrition and accordingly children are going through puberty several years earlier than a few decades ago.

    The problem with our state schools lies with poor discipline, lack of rigour and the devaluation of teaching as a profession and most certainly not the odd chocolate hob-nob fuelled child.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    Lynton Crosby again

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome
    Plain packaging for cigarettes plan shelved http://polho.me/13EPaVg

    Thank goodness - fringe issue. Has minimum alcohol pricing also been punted ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    Lynton Crosby again

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome
    Plain packaging for cigarettes plan shelved http://polho.me/13EPaVg

    Is Crosby in danger of overtaking Osborne in your obsessions? Should we now assume he is behind everything the government does? Surely George is still a part time (if increasingly successful )Chancellor?

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Scotland. Do you already have the prohibition on exhibiting cigarette packets or advertising them in stores? Caused a lot of inconvenience up here.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433
    JackW said:

    Sky News - St Vince of the Cable and car manufacturers to invest £500M each over 10 years in innovation.

    Royal mail one day, motor trade the next - surely can't be long before Cheshire farming gets the treatment ?!?

    LOL, what's going on, has Vince finally woken up after his 3 years siesta ?
  • School meals: It all depends on the parents.

    My kids take a packed lunch, as is the common practice at their school. But a cheese and ham sandwich with a banana and a fruit juice is good for them. Banning this would be insane.

    If some parents pack their little dears off with a packet of crisps, a Mars Bar and a can of Irn Bru - well that ain't so good.

    But it is NOT the job of the state to seek to replace parental responsibility. Sure schools can offer hot lunches and I fully support these being subsidised for the poor. But to ban packed lunches?

    FOAD!
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    Last week we talked about the Labour rule concerning candidates being union members. And its grammar changes (I have seen it...the most recent version had "shall" instead of "should").

    One of the early rumblings at the beginning of the campaign for this Brighton by-election was that the Labour woman wasn't a trade union member because she feared her employing company wouldn't like it.

  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    I have 4 children and simply could not afford school dinners @£2.50 a head approx £150 a month. Paked lunches come in at £0.70 a head including fruit yogurt etc ie healthy. Unless they make dinners affordable its just another tax on the poorer families of this country. There are low income families who do not qualify free school meals.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2013
    @Jack

    "BTW .... the next 2015 GE ARSE projection will be published exclusively on PB on Monday.

    You lucky, lucky people."

    During the US elections the projections from your ARSE were the product of analysis research and inside knowledge. The most eagerly awaited and ultimately the most accurate of the whole election.

    Now your ARSE has been reduced to wish fulfillment the frisson that used to accompany its release is hardly a ripple.

    The once mighty ARSE is now 'full of sound and fury signifying nothing'

    WIND!

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541
    JackW said:

    Give it time but we'll soon see Social Services raiding homes in the early hours to confiscate plastic lunch boxes, take the kids into "care" and prosecute the parents for reckless endangerment under the new School Lunches (Prevention of Obesity) Act.

    I remember my mum in the 50s being incensed to have a district nurse visit our home to enquire whether she was giving me a good ration of orange juice every day. That said, although a good mother in many ways, she certainly wasn't doing that. If we accept for the sake of argument that kids having daily juice is a good thing, is this sort of pressure reasonable (I think yes, if resources permit), and should it be reinforced by the school providing juice (probably) or insisting on it (hmm, not really)?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Good morning, everyone.

    Baffled to hear of the plan to ban packed lunches. I always had them when I was at school (I was, and to an extent still am, a fussy eater).
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Roger said:

    "BTW .... the next 2015 GE ARSE projection will be published exclusively on PB on Monday.

    You lucky, lucky people."

    During the US elections the projections from your ARSE were the product of analysis research and inside knowledge. The eagerly awaited and ultimately the most accurate of the whole election.

    Now your ARSE has been reduced to wish fulfillment the frisson that used to accompany its release is hardly a ripple.

    The once mighty ARSE is now just 'full of sound and fury signifying nothing'

    WIND!

    My dear old Rog you seem to have forgotten that my ARSE is part of WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division, itself part of JNN - the Jacobite News Network.

    You may be assured that the mighty ARSE is enjoying the same rigour, vitality and impartiality that it has ever done and indeed is almost certainly an improvement on it's US counterpart from last year - WOW !!

    That the present projection is a disappointment for you clearly saddens me as I feel that you as PB's greatest anti-tipster deserves a little sunshine in your present poor situation. Fear not though I think it's likely that Labour will not fall into Michael Foot territory - Now that's cheered you up surely !!

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    On MP's pay Matt hits the spot: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    kjohnw said:

    I have 4 children and simply could not afford school dinners @£2.50 a head approx £150 a month. Paked lunches come in at £0.70 a head including fruit yogurt etc ie healthy. Unless they make dinners affordable its just another tax on the poorer families of this country. There are low income families who do not qualify free school meals.

    An excellent point. Unfortunately the civil servants who come up with these ideas and the MPs who promote them are not members of low income families and probably do not have the relevant social experience to consider your situation at the inception of their scenario.

    Also I am sure that with efficient catering and buying, a nutritious school dinner can be made for less then £2.50. Many families have less than that to spend (per person) on their main meals.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    @Tim

    "Banning nutella is sensible."

    ......and put a poor struggling director out of business!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuSYKXQvrZo
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,525
    DavidL said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.

    What's the difference between that and school uniform

    Or compulsory school meals in the independent sector?
    Two of my kids attend an independent sector school. There are no compulsory school meals. We have, however, had a problem when nutella sandwiches were banned because a child had a nut allergy.

    Some years ago when I was (professionally) involved with school nurses we had a situation where the headmistress of a primary school asked parents NOT to give their children peanut butter sandwiches because one child had a severe nut allergy.

    One mother refused to co-operate, on the grounds that not giving her child peanut butter sandwiches was an interference with his human rights.

    Can't remember how it was resolved.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,525
    TGOHF said:

    On topic - lets hope so. Other far left parities such as Respect and the BNP have also proved to be a flash in the pan and unable to get reelected after even 1 term.

    I'm sure that George Galloway would have held his seat if he'd defended it

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Give it time but we'll soon see Social Services raiding homes in the early hours to confiscate plastic lunch boxes, take the kids into "care" and prosecute the parents for reckless endangerment under the new School Lunches (Prevention of Obesity) Act.

    I remember my mum in the 50s being incensed to have a district nurse visit our home to enquire whether she was giving me a good ration of orange juice every day. That said, although a good mother in many ways, she certainly wasn't doing that. If we accept for the sake of argument that kids having daily juice is a good thing, is this sort of pressure reasonable (I think yes, if resources permit), and should it be reinforced by the school providing juice (probably) or insisting on it (hmm, not really)?
    It comes down to balance Nick.

    Reasonable encouragement and focussed education are fine. However I fear that we continue to move to an almost enforced nanny state on issues that should remain the domain of parents and heads and not what appears the ever burgeoning army of over bearing interference officials whose very existence requires more coercion and less freedom of the individual.

  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited July 2013
    tim said:



    Compulsory school dinners brings the price down as the fixed costs are spread among double the number of people.


    I hope you can do this without invloving kraft, unilever or any other of the major blisspoint peddlers in the food provision. It does sound liek a genuinely good idea, but wouldn't like it to be hijacked in the name of free trade law

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    JackW said:

    Give it time but we'll soon see Social Services raiding homes in the early hours to confiscate plastic lunch boxes, take the kids into "care" and prosecute the parents for reckless endangerment under the new School Lunches (Prevention of Obesity) Act.

    I remember my mum in the 50s being incensed to have a district nurse visit our home to enquire whether she was giving me a good ration of orange juice every day. That said, although a good mother in many ways, she certainly wasn't doing that. If we accept for the sake of argument that kids having daily juice is a good thing, is this sort of pressure reasonable (I think yes, if resources permit), and should it be reinforced by the school providing juice (probably) or insisting on it (hmm, not really)?
    @NickP

    If I remember correctly. that orange juice (supplied free by HMG) tasted foul and there was no way that my mother was going to get it past my lips.

    Of course that was a time when rationing was still around or had just finished and things like oranges were hard to come by and we only got tangerines at Christmas - one of which formed the base of my Christmas stocking. Also a small glass of orange juice was considered a starter course at a restaurant.


  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724



    Some years ago when I was (professionally) involved with school nurses we had a situation where the headmistress of a primary school asked parents NOT to give their children peanut butter sandwiches because one child had a severe nut allergy.

    One mother refused to co-operate, on the grounds that not giving her child peanut butter sandwiches was an interference with his human rights.

    Can't remember how it was resolved.

    Does anyone know why nut allergies are so commonplace nowadays? I can't think of a single case of it I knew as a child - and eating nuts was considered healthy/to be shared freely.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Rebel-infighting kills off senior Free Syrian Army leader:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23283079

    I feel great sympathy for the secular rebels. But given so many of those fighting Assad are Sharia-loving lunatics arming the rebels seems very unwise.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Miss Plato, I heard that it's because small amounts of nuts are present in a staggering array of food which, when taking by kids early on, can cause allergies to form.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930

    DavidL said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    @tim

    And finally a good schools policy recommendation

    Ban packed lunches, head teachers urged


    Ah yes. Now it comes out.

    tim knows best how people should choose to live their lives.

    The Mighty State is Lord and Master of us all.

    What's the difference between that and school uniform

    Or compulsory school meals in the independent sector?
    Two of my kids attend an independent sector school. There are no compulsory school meals. We have, however, had a problem when nutella sandwiches were banned because a child had a nut allergy.

    Some years ago when I was (professionally) involved with school nurses we had a situation where the headmistress of a primary school asked parents NOT to give their children peanut butter sandwiches because one child had a severe nut allergy.

    One mother refused to co-operate, on the grounds that not giving her child peanut butter sandwiches was an interference with his human rights.

    Can't remember how it was resolved.

    I have to say it was quite a nuisance for us because our son is not a big meat eater but of course any sane person cooperates in such a case.

    So far as human rights are concerned I would like to say I must have missed that article of the Convention but given the attitudes of the current judges I would not like to be totally confident that they would share that view!
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:



    Some years ago when I was (professionally) involved with school nurses we had a situation where the headmistress of a primary school asked parents NOT to give their children peanut butter sandwiches because one child had a severe nut allergy.

    One mother refused to co-operate, on the grounds that not giving her child peanut butter sandwiches was an interference with his human rights.

    Can't remember how it was resolved.

    Does anyone know why nut allergies are so commonplace nowadays? I can't think of a single case of it I knew as a child - and eating nuts was considered healthy/to be shared freely.

    @Plato

    I too have wondered that. As a child the only nuts available were: brazil nuts, walnuts, almonds and hazel (cob) nuts. There were mainly available at Christmas and most families had a set of nutcrackers as shelled nuts were a rarity.

    However (and you are far younger than me) things like salted nuts were not available. Has anything been added to the shelled nut to preserve it (other than salt) and so help create this allergy or are nuts being blamed for another, but not yet known, cause?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Like mums net on ere today :)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I was extremely fond of satsumas as a kid - and ate dozens of them - one Christmas, my mother who was prone to eccentric gift buying bought me a crate of them instead of more conventional items!

    It was a race against time to eat them before they went green and furry - I think I almost managed it.
    Financier said:

    JackW said:

    Give it time but we'll soon see Social Services raiding homes in the early hours to confiscate plastic lunch boxes, take the kids into "care" and prosecute the parents for reckless endangerment under the new School Lunches (Prevention of Obesity) Act.

    I remember my mum in the 50s being incensed to have a district nurse visit our home to enquire whether she was giving me a good ration of orange juice every day. That said, although a good mother in many ways, she certainly wasn't doing that. If we accept for the sake of argument that kids having daily juice is a good thing, is this sort of pressure reasonable (I think yes, if resources permit), and should it be reinforced by the school providing juice (probably) or insisting on it (hmm, not really)?
    @NickP

    If I remember correctly. that orange juice (supplied free by HMG) tasted foul and there was no way that my mother was going to get it past my lips.

    Of course that was a time when rationing was still around or had just finished and things like oranges were hard to come by and we only got tangerines at Christmas - one of which formed the base of my Christmas stocking. Also a small glass of orange juice was considered a starter course at a restaurant.


  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's interesting - I'd have assumed the opposite that being exposed would generate tolerance - clearly not!

    Miss Plato, I heard that it's because small amounts of nuts are present in a staggering array of food which, when taking by kids early on, can cause allergies to form.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2013
    @MD

    "I feel great sympathy for the secular rebels. But given so many of those fighting Assad are Sharia-loving lunatics arming the rebels seems very unwise."

    I always think that if these Arab governments under threat or the rebels and their backers used their brains they would spend a fraction of what they spend on arms on a good PR company (with a large budget).

    They have no concept of how the right stories in the right media can mobilize public opinion which can then mobilize government action in almost all significant Western countries.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930

    Miss Plato, I heard that it's because small amounts of nuts are present in a staggering array of food which, when taking by kids early on, can cause allergies to form.

    There are lots of theories and it is not just nuts. My nephew had a truly scary allergy to eggs when he was younger. Nibbling a small piece of birthday cake at a party caused hospitalisation. Thankfully it has got a lot less severe as he got older.

    One theory I have heard from a forensic patholoigst is that a lot of the chemicals that are present in our modern world (from traces of sprays in fruit and veg to coatings on a lot of electronic equipment) can cause physiological changes in the womb before the placenta thickens adequately to give protection. This cause minor genetic variations which result in the allergies. Not sure how deeply that is based on research. He believed that it was also causing a drop in fertility amongst men as well.

  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,551
    DavidL said:

    tim said:

    Lynton Crosby again

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome
    Plain packaging for cigarettes plan shelved http://polho.me/13EPaVg

    Is Crosby in danger of overtaking Osborne in your obsessions? Should we now assume he is behind everything the government does? Surely George is still a part time (if increasingly successful )Chancellor?

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out in Scotland. Do you already have the prohibition on exhibiting cigarette packets or advertising them in stores? Caused a lot of inconvenience up here.

    Yes, cigarette packets are not on display in Scotland anymore.
    This week, in my local Co-op, I noticed that the front covers of "Nuts" and "Zoo" (but not FHM)were similarly covered up now.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Mr. Roger, the rebels have a hard time getting good PR when some notionally on their own side are committed to Sharia and cutting out and eating human hearts.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    Plato said:



    Some years ago when I was (professionally) involved with school nurses we had a situation where the headmistress of a primary school asked parents NOT to give their children peanut butter sandwiches because one child had a severe nut allergy.

    One mother refused to co-operate, on the grounds that not giving her child peanut butter sandwiches was an interference with his human rights.

    Can't remember how it was resolved.

    Does anyone know why nut allergies are so commonplace nowadays? I can't think of a single case of it I knew as a child - and eating nuts was considered healthy/to be shared freely.

    No-one knows. But some theories can be seen in:
    http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-12/why-are-so-many-kids-allergic-peanuts

    An interesting study: peanut allergies are more common in richer households:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/peanut-allergies-wealthy-kids_n_2121200.html

    Perhaps we should be slightly less keen on killing 99.9% of all known germs and let our kids eat dirt occasionally?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    An interesting discussion.

    I remember someone commenting recently on the modern tendency to treat children as adults and adults as children.

    I've never met any adult who's said "Cigarettes dangerous? Why hasn't anyone ever warned me?" And the dangers of excess alcohol are well known too but adults often choose to undertake risky actions. Banning never works well, the Americans eliminated alcohol under the Volstead Act in the 1920s, didn't they? And our drug problem has almost disappeared, hasn't it?

    Conversely, "in loco parentis" seems a lot weaker. Can anyone explain why children in care are allowed to come and go almost when they like?

    Banning pack-ups was tried in Doncaster recently. Do you recall the sight of mothers feeding their kids junk food through the school railings?

    Children are vulnerable, adults with "mental health issues" may be, but the Government should stick to advice only for adults unless the habit adversely affects others to an unacceptable degree.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433
    TGOHF said:

    Like mums net on ere today :)

    The english always lose the plot when it comes to education, it's class war by other means.

    You could have Marcus Wareing doing 9 course degustation menus in our schools and it would make bugger all difference.

    The hard facts remains the curriculum's rubbish, the LEAs have no ambition, the kids are never stretched and everyone's happy with second best. And then throw in the politicisation of schooling so that no-one can make any sensible changes or establish a new consensus.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013

    Perhaps we should be slightly less keen on killing 99.9% of all known germs and let our kids eat dirt occasionally?

    I'm a firm believer in letting bugs have a go - its the only way to become resistant to them. Ditto fresh air and eating the odd earth worm or whatever.

    This craze for zapping everything with disinfectant has become a hazard in itself AFAIC. I've a pretty rock solid constitution - and can't help feeling it was down to my mother's relaxed attitude to such things.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,889
    Plato said:

    That's interesting - I'd have assumed the opposite that being exposed would generate tolerance - clearly not!

    Miss Plato, I heard that it's because small amounts of nuts are present in a staggering array of food which, when taking by kids early on, can cause allergies to form.

    Knowing a few Vegans and how many nuts they eat, it would be interesting to see if the incidence of nut allergies are greater in the children of vegans. I would expect that to be the case if the pre-birth / early years theories are the main cause.

    Beware the Vegan Police!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viUon8EY0Rs
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433

    Mr. Roger, the rebels have a hard time getting good PR when some notionally on their own side are committed to Sharia and cutting out and eating human hearts.

    how do you know that's not actually good publicity ? Doesn't it depend on who the audience is ? Jihadists won't be targeting wussy liberals in the West except to literally put the fear of God into them. If your target audience is bored Arab youth with no prospects and a love for weaponry then their PR looks about right.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JackW said:


    Surely the problem with many obese kids is not that they are not eating nutritionally but they are scoffing far too much nutrition and accordingly children are going through puberty several years earlier than a few decades ago.

    Conversely, many of our "norms" for BMI and obesity are derived from times when most of the population was undernourished, and (for children) did not reach puberty till their mid-teens, and that is betting without race differences. (And we can tell children used to be undernourished rather than just slimmer by the secular increase in height over the past few decades.)
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    "Compulsory school dinners brings the price down as the fixed costs are spread among double the number of people.

    What do you put in a 70p lunch?"

    When you are buying for four in bulk you can save money by for example cooking a whole chicken an which costs around £3 and it will last for 3 days dinners . You can buy 500 hrams of mild cheddar grated for £2.15 . If you know how to shop it is quite rasy to make nutricious lunches on a small budget
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2013
    Why stick at school food? I mean the state could check up that every seven yr old was in bed by a certain time, that their duvet had the recommended tog rating and they could withdraw children from the home if the parents smoked.. That's before checking that the child was bathed in the regulation temperature water and that approved foods were used for lunch and supper...the list of possibilities for the state to interfere is endless. That's before we get on to gene therapy to ensure everyone ends up the same height (we wouldn't want any of the poor darlings to suffer from LMS..)
This discussion has been closed.