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  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    "At the equivalent point in his premiership Gordon Brown swept Labour to 44% — a 13% lead over the Tories. “By the year end we were at 27%,” Bartram recalls."

    Yes, and something which happened exactly nine years ago today may have had a little something to do with that.

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/783960510760878080

    (It says seven years ago, but it was 2007, wasn't it?)

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase

    We cannot be killed

    'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'

    "Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority, and in so doing utterly shatter the glass paradigm of cyclical politics which has contained us for the century since 1906."

    I found out the other day where he gets "glass paradigm" from. William Gibson, Hinterlands (Burning Chrome 1993 p.91) "Dozens of new schools of physics have sprung up in Saint Olga's wake, ever more bizarre and more elegant heresies, each one hoping to shoulder its way to the inside track. One by one, they all fall down. In the whispering quiet of Heaven's nights, you imagine you can hear the paradigms shatter, shards of theory tinkling into brilliant dust as the lifework of some corporate think tank is reduced to the tersest historical footnote, and all in the time it takes your damaged traveler to mutter some fragment in the dark."

    I don't know whether this is intelligent or dumb plagiarism, but I am guessing the latter and that he thinks a paradigm is literally a thing made of glass.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2016
    MTimT said:

    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    And a lot of people are saying 'Look, there's no wolf!', when the prediction was that the wolf would appear some time in the next couple of years.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    MTimT said:



    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    But they are not necessarily lying. To be [even more] pedantic that was the premise of Aesop's tale, as you pointed out. Maybe we need another parable.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. T, should pity-f*** be hyphenated?

    Congrats on another Spectator article, incidentally.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    One of the greatest lessons I was ever taught was judging when to give up and admit defeat on a certain point, especially a minor point. Not that I always remember it, but somehow this seemed an apt moment to bring it up.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    edited October 2016

    Scott_P said:

    @e_casalicchio: I'm hearing there's a "strong chance" Diane Abbott is going to get Shadow Home Secretary in Jeremy Corbyn's reshuffle.

    As well as her current jobs or instead of them?
    Shame, I was hoping she would get Education, and then could spend every TV interview defending her choice of private schooling, whilst telling everyone else they need to go to a comprehensive.
    It would be about as ironic as her having the health portfolio.
  • Mr. T, should pity-f*** be hyphenated?

    Mr Dancer,
    I first heard the term on the "new" Battlestar Galactica. Think it was Gaetta.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    And a lot of people are saying 'Look, there's no wolf!', when the prediction was that the wolf would appear some time in the next couple of years.
    LOL.

    This reminds me of when I was in Geneva at the negotiations drafting the Chemical Weapons Convention. I made the error of saying in an intervention that "there are many ways to skin a cat." Of course, as this was a working group without simultaneous interpretation, I had to explain myself. For the next several months, every delegate for whom English was not the mother tongue seemed to bend over backwards to use another cat metaphor or simile.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Mortimer said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    I LOVE PB sometimes. Post of the day.
    Absolutely, and we had the Treaty of Amiens quoted as a reference earlier this afternoon. PB must stand as the most erudite generalist website (save from TSE's historical ramblings obviously).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. T, I was wondering about happy slapping, which I'd put as two words. I agree it's not clear-cut.

    Dr. Prasannan, really? I heard it bloody ages ago.

    I am not sure that previous line necessarily reflects well upon me. Ahem.

    Just as an aside, did anyone buy the XCOM 2 console version [came out a few days ago]?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:



    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    But they are not necessarily lying. To be [even more] pedantic that was the premise of Aesop's tale, as you pointed out. Maybe we need another parable.
    There is indeed a difference between lying and being wrong. To be a liar one needs to know that the facts are different. If someone cries wolf believing it to be true, then they are not a liar (though the boy in the fable was a liar, economic forecasters may have been incorrect in good faith).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    I didn't realise it was a true story?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:



    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    But they are not necessarily lying. To be [even more] pedantic that was the premise of Aesop's tale, as you pointed out. Maybe we need another parable.

    granted. Perhaps in this context Chicken Little, Henny Penny, or Cassandra (depending on personal your credence in the prophecies) would be more apt.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited October 2016
    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
    Funnily enough I was thinking that as I wrote it. When villagers have turned out several times to find no wolf, even if the belief in the threat of one was reasonable, they will end up discounting the threat. Particularly if there is a cost to dealing with threats that never transpire. For example they have to give up work to look for the wolf.

    This must be a big issue for terrorism threats.
  • MTimT said:

    This reminds me of when I was in Geneva at the negotiations drafting the Chemical Weapons Convention. I made the error of saying in an intervention that "there are many ways to skin a cat." Of course, as this was a working group without simultaneous interpretation, I had to explain myself. For the next several months, every delegate for whom English was not the mother tongue seemed to bend over backwards to use another cat metaphor or simile.

    I was in a rather fraught meeting with a venture capitalist once, when he used that phrase. It took me a few seconds to realise that I was the cat.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    This reminds me of when I was in Geneva at the negotiations drafting the Chemical Weapons Convention. I made the error of saying in an intervention that "there are many ways to skin a cat." Of course, as this was a working group without simultaneous interpretation, I had to explain myself. For the next several months, every delegate for whom English was not the mother tongue seemed to bend over backwards to use another cat metaphor or simile.

    I was in a rather fraught meeting with a venture capitalist once, when he used that phrase. It took me a few seconds to realise that I was the cat.
    Ouch!!
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Rod crosby is in Nevada:


    Gadi Schwartz Verified account
    @GadiNBC

    Then this guy starts trying to say the Nazi's didn't intentionally gas 6 million Jews, another man agrees. I ask if they are together. "No"
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Peace breaking out in the Labour Party? Shame it wasn't last week.

    They could have had a game of football in the middle of the conference hall and then sang silent night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, should pity-f*** be hyphenated?

    Congrats on another Spectator article, incidentally.

    Hm. Pity fuck or pity-fuck

    I think hyphenated. But I might seek guidance from the OED.

    Without, I think:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pity fuck

    I always thought 'mercy fuck' more euphonic.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mercy fuck
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Mortimer said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    I LOVE PB sometimes. Post of the day.
    Absolutely, and we had the Treaty of Amiens quoted as a reference earlier this afternoon. PB must stand as the most erudite generalist website (save from TSE's historical ramblings obviously).
    Not to mention the Canning-Castlereagh duel.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
    Funnily enough I was thinking that as I wrote it. When villagers have turned out several times to find no wolf, even if the belief in the threat of one was reasonable, they will end up discounting the threat. Particularly if there is a cost to dealing with threats that never transpire. For example they have to give up work to look for the wolf.

    This must be a big issue for terrorism threats.
    This is a huge field of research. Perceptions of risk are molded by multiple factors at each of four fundamental levels (brain architecture and chemistry, heuristics used in processing complex data, personality, and social pressures). Issues such as how understood the threat is how immediate it is, the personal pain involved (it is a very long list) all factor in.

    The net result of this is that people are actually pretty tolerant of the precautionary principle in relation to terrorism, and very much less so in relation to global warming in particular and environmental issues in general.
  • MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    This reminds me of when I was in Geneva at the negotiations drafting the Chemical Weapons Convention. I made the error of saying in an intervention that "there are many ways to skin a cat." Of course, as this was a working group without simultaneous interpretation, I had to explain myself. For the next several months, every delegate for whom English was not the mother tongue seemed to bend over backwards to use another cat metaphor or simile.

    I was in a rather fraught meeting with a venture capitalist once, when he used that phrase. It took me a few seconds to realise that I was the cat.
    Ouch!!
    http://www.english-for-students.com/The-Greedy-Dog.html
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    @jessphillips: We've started reshuffle I see, so far one woman sacked, one man given her job. I hope this isn't a theme

    Gosh she's an idiot.
    That's offensive to idiots.
  • A superb article by Stanley, sums up just how I feel (and I suspect wht TM will romp home in 2020)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/theresa-may-has-closed-the-liberal-era-bring-on-christian-democr/

    Reminds me of those 'end of politics' articles that abounded when John Major won in 1992.
  • 2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
    Funnily enough I was thinking that as I wrote it. When villagers have turned out several times to find no wolf, even if the belief in the threat of one was reasonable, they will end up discounting the threat. Particularly if there is a cost to dealing with threats that never transpire. For example they have to give up work to look for the wolf.

    This must be a big issue for terrorism threats.
    It wasn't in my day. We just looked at all the actual information. Seemed to work OK. Of course we had to dress it up as "intelligence" rather than "information" when passing it to politicians otherwise how else could we afford our bar bills.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
    Funnily enough I was thinking that as I wrote it. When villagers have turned out several times to find no wolf, even if the belief in the threat of one was reasonable, they will end up discounting the threat. Particularly if there is a cost to dealing with threats that never transpire. For example they have to give up work to look for the wolf.

    This must be a big issue for terrorism threats.
    This is a huge field of research. Perceptions of risk are molded by multiple factors at each of four fundamental levels (brain architecture and chemistry, heuristics used in processing complex data, personality, and social pressures). Issues such as how understood the threat is how immediate it is, the personal pain involved (it is a very long list) all factor in.

    The net result of this is that people are actually pretty tolerant of the precautionary principle in relation to terrorism, and very much less so in relation to global warming in particular and environmental issues in general.
    Thanks, that's fascinating. Bringing it back to the subject, I assume Brexit is more like global warming in terms of people's risk perceptions than it is like terrorism.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784

    2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    It may swing the election, if it hits a predominantly Repub or Dem area
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    JackW said:
    Don't think Clinton needs to worry about getting Indiana.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Speedy said:

    619 said:



    Indeed. If trump wins, it means a 25-30% chance event happened. Doesn't mean Nate Silver was wrong

    If Trump wins I'll eat my cigars.
    His chances are not 25-30% but close to 1.5%.

    When he loses the second debate he should bet 10$ million on Pence for President then resign the nomination.
    Pence would beat Hillary easily since he's not Trump, and Trump will get 100$ million in cash from the betting markets and say that his strategic genius lead to Hillary's defeat.

    Trump comes out a winner of sorts, Hillary loses.

    And everyone is happy that neither Trump nor Hillary becomes President.
    Polling was done on would you vote Dem/Rep if Hillary/Trump dropped out. In both cases voting intention plummeted if either pulled out
    JackW said:
    Romney won by 9 and Pence should be giving it a home town boost.

    My state betting is now looking rather conservative in it's nature.

    For debate watchers - the 'Neutral' Town Hall crowd is being selected by Gallup.
  • 2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    it might be a decent size hurricane but they have been few and far between in recent years. They would be best to avoid the project fear doom approach
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Meanwhile have any more maniacal Kippers emerged from the closet yet.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    619 said:



    Indeed. If trump wins, it means a 25-30% chance event happened. Doesn't mean Nate Silver was wrong

    If Trump wins I'll eat my cigars.
    His chances are not 25-30% but close to 1.5%.

    When he loses the second debate he should bet 10$ million on Pence for President then resign the nomination.
    Pence would beat Hillary easily since he's not Trump, and Trump will get 100$ million in cash from the betting markets and say that his strategic genius lead to Hillary's defeat.

    Trump comes out a winner of sorts, Hillary loses.

    And everyone is happy that neither Trump nor Hillary becomes President.
    Polling was done on would you vote Dem/Rep if Hillary/Trump dropped out. In both cases voting intention plummeted if either pulled out
    JackW said:
    Romney won by 9 and Pence should be giving it a home town boost.

    My state betting is now looking rather conservative in it's nature.

    For debate watchers - the 'Neutral' Town Hall crowd is being selected by Gallup.
    Who are only doing private polls this election, not publicly released ones
  • 619 said:

    2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    It may swing the election, if it hits a predominantly Repub or Dem area
    What will swing the election is what happens afterwards and whether the state ie establishment are deemed to be negligent as they were when it got a bit damp in New Orleans.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784

    619 said:

    2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    It may swing the election, if it hits a predominantly Repub or Dem area
    What will swing the election is what happens afterwards and whether the state ie establishment are deemed to be negligent as they were when it got a bit damp in New Orleans.
    It's a democrat in charge this time, Obama will do a great job like he did in New Jersey
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    Or actually a low probability of one. The consequences of being eaten are serious enough that the precautionary principle should apply

    LOL.

    I highly recommend Andy Stirling's writing on the precautionary principle. It actually has a lot of elements of 'crying wolf' if practiced in its hard form, with the same long term negative impacts (the principle being protected gets discounted and devalued). He recommends a soft precautionary principle.
    Funnily enough I was thinking that as I wrote it. When villagers have turned out several times to find no wolf, even if the belief in the threat of one was reasonable, they will end up discounting the threat. Particularly if there is a cost to dealing with threats that never transpire. For example they have to give up work to look for the wolf.

    This must be a big issue for terrorism threats.
    This is a huge field of research. Perceptions of risk are molded by multiple factors at each of four fundamental levels (brain architecture and chemistry, heuristics used in processing complex data, personality, and social pressures). Issues such as how understood the threat is how immediate it is, the personal pain involved (it is a very long list) all factor in.

    The net result of this is that people are actually pretty tolerant of the precautionary principle in relation to terrorism, and very much less so in relation to global warming in particular and environmental issues in general.
    Thanks, that's fascinating. Bringing it back to the subject, I assume Brexit is more like global warming in terms of people's risk perceptions than it is like terrorism.
    I for one refuse to believe that Brexit is real. ;)
  • IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    I didn't realise it was a true story?
    Ive got a wolf sitting on my lap at the moment (well its DNA is identical to a wolf but its a different race called a spaniel so I'm allowed to have it at home.

    Racism is allowed and institutionalise in ways that would have made Dr Verwoed salivate if you are Canus lupus.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    619 said:

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    619 said:



    Indeed. If trump wins, it means a 25-30% chance event happened. Doesn't mean Nate Silver was wrong

    If Trump wins I'll eat my cigars.
    His chances are not 25-30% but close to 1.5%.

    When he loses the second debate he should bet 10$ million on Pence for President then resign the nomination.
    Pence would beat Hillary easily since he's not Trump, and Trump will get 100$ million in cash from the betting markets and say that his strategic genius lead to Hillary's defeat.

    Trump comes out a winner of sorts, Hillary loses.

    And everyone is happy that neither Trump nor Hillary becomes President.
    Polling was done on would you vote Dem/Rep if Hillary/Trump dropped out. In both cases voting intention plummeted if either pulled out
    JackW said:
    Romney won by 9 and Pence should be giving it a home town boost.

    My state betting is now looking rather conservative in it's nature.

    For debate watchers - the 'Neutral' Town Hall crowd is being selected by Gallup.
    Who are only doing private polls this election, not publicly released ones
    They got out of Presidential head to head polling due to 2012 being a massive bust for them.

    So why are they picking the audience? Makes no sense.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Nigelb said:

    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, should pity-f*** be hyphenated?

    Congrats on another Spectator article, incidentally.

    Hm. Pity fuck or pity-fuck

    I think hyphenated. But I might seek guidance from the OED.

    Without, I think:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pity fuck

    I always thought 'mercy fuck' more euphonic.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mercy fuck
    charity fuck is even better
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2016
    Alistair said:


    Polling was done on would you vote Dem/Rep if Hillary/Trump dropped out. In both cases voting intention plummeted if either pulled out

    JackW said:
    Romney won by 9 and Pence should be giving it a home town boost.

    My state betting is now looking rather conservative in it's nature.

    For debate watchers - the 'Neutral' Town Hall crowd is being selected by Gallup.
    "Polling was done on would you vote Dem/Rep if Hillary/Trump dropped out. In both cases voting intention plummeted if either pulled out"

    Wrong.

    The only poll conducted was one last week with Trump losing to Hillary by 10 nationally but Pence being down by 1 against Hillary 47/46.

    The only polling that has ever being done proves that both Hillary's and Trump's replacements would do far better than them.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Don't think Clinton needs to worry about getting Indiana.

    Alistair said:

    Romney won by 9 and Pence should be giving it a home town boost.

    My state betting is now looking rather conservative in it's nature.

    For debate watchers - the 'Neutral' Town Hall crowd is being selected by Gallup.

    This poll looks like an outlier. Trump 10+

    However if Trump implodes then Indiana, Georgia and South Carolina come into the mix.

  • MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    But it is not the moral of the story. And what is the truth about Brexit? Clue, no-one knows. But a lot of people are crying wolf.

    And a lot of people are saying 'Look, there's no wolf!', when the prediction was that the wolf would appear some time in the next couple of years.
    LOL.

    This reminds me of when I was in Geneva at the negotiations drafting the Chemical Weapons Convention. I made the error of saying in an intervention that "there are many ways to skin a cat." Of course, as this was a working group without simultaneous interpretation, I had to explain myself. For the next several months, every delegate for whom English was not the mother tongue seemed to bend over backwards to use another cat metaphor or simile.
    When in the USA with my then USA citizen girlfriend we were at a party of her fellow students one evening.

    They were discussing a fellow female student who had decided to go to Alaska. They reckoned she was into hairy bearded men and would enjoy the ratio to much laughter. I interjected that she might be out of luck as most of them would probably prefer the sheep.

    No laughter, silence, tumbleweed.....

    There are actually sheep in Alaska and men do go there sheep hunting, but alas the 'Flossie is that you' double meaning hasnt crossed the atlantic where things are a littie more puritanical.


    Baaaa.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Be interesting to see what Carswell does in medium term. Resign UKIP and become 'independent libertarian' ? Crawl back to Tories?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Too many big ego's in a place that's too small for all of them.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436

    Be interesting to see what Carswell does in medium term. Resign UKIP and become 'independent libertarian' ? Crawl back to Tories?
    Interesting is putting it a bit strongly.
  • Its funny. I've never had much real issue with using the F word as in saying if a car breaks down 'It's F***ed. However I still find that use of it in its original and proper meaning, to describe the act of sexual union ie a F***, quite shocking.

    F***ing appalling.
  • IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    I didn't realise it was a true story?
    Ive got a wolf sitting on my lap at the moment (well its DNA is identical to a wolf but its a different race called a spaniel so I'm allowed to have it at home.

    Racism is allowed and institutionalise in ways that would have made Dr Verwoed salivate if you are Canus lupus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    https://twitter.com/cheererowe/status/784073097032982528
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436

    Its funny. I've never had much real issue with using the F word as in saying if a car breaks down 'It's F***ed.
    It's ok to say Farage on here.
  • Be interesting to see what Carswell does in medium term. Resign UKIP and become 'independent libertarian' ? Crawl back to Tories?
    Interesting is putting it a bit strongly.
    After today challenge Farage to ten rounds for the leadership looks like it cant be ruled out.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    We are all going to wake up .....emerge dripping from a shower* and be back in May 2016 on election morning. Here we realise that the Ed Stone issued some kind of sonic mind bending Ray distorting the time continuum resulting in Labour actually winning by a landslide. Ms Abbott becomes Prime Minister as Corbyn retires taking up a junior managerial position in a marmalade production factory while the right wing electorate imploded and turned into a pile of dust.

    Well it's about as sensible as what's happening now.

    * individual and ladies only showers are available.
  • Its funny. I've never had much real issue with using the F word as in saying if a car breaks down 'It's F***ed. However I still find that use of it in its original and proper meaning, to describe the act of sexual union ie a F***, quite shocking.

    F***ing appalling.
    Following definitely NSFW!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWRxPDhd3d0
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited October 2016
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:



    This is a huge field of research. Perceptions of risk are molded by multiple factors at each of four fundamental levels (brain architecture and chemistry, heuristics used in processing complex data, personality, and social pressures). Issues such as how understood the threat is how immediate it is, the personal pain involved (it is a very long list) all factor in.

    The net result of this is that people are actually pretty tolerant of the precautionary principle in relation to terrorism, and very much less so in relation to global warming in particular and environmental issues in general.

    Thanks, that's fascinating. Bringing it back to the subject, I assume Brexit is more like global warming in terms of people's risk perceptions than it is like terrorism.
    I've not seen specific data on this, but it would make sense. The pain (particularly for the dispossessed) is fairly well understood (if uncertain), has been chosen rather than imposed, is more likely to affect others than oneself, and is unlikely to be too great.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,805
    Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    2.5 M under mandatory evacuation orders in advance of Matthew. Some of the updated forecasts look apocalyptic. If it really turns out it is the worst Hurricane to hit Florida since 1851 (a) Florida is a swing state (b ) expect Trumps comments on Climate Change to be aired widely again.

    https://twitter.com/cheererowe/status/784073097032982528
    That hurricane is going to hit Trump's Mar A Lago twice according to the new forecasts.
    One on Friday and one after it does a swirl in the atlantic and comes back again to Florida.

    Hurricane Matthew is God's way of telling Trump to resign, how many times the same hurricane hits you twice ?
  • IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Hmm. Talking of confirmation bias, there are consequences of Project Fear. Saw the BBC article headline Hard Brexit 'Could Cost the City GBP38bn' and didn't even bother to read it.

    When someone uses the same trick far too many times, people will no longer be tricked.
    Governments and the Media have cried "Wolf" so many times no one is listening or reading.
    Of course the boy who cried wolf did get scoffed by a wolf!

    People forget the point of the parable.
    Which is not to cry wolf. Not that there will eventually be a wolf.
    Or that one should only cry wolf when there is a wolf. Or at least a high probability of one.
    You can claim that the moral of the story is whatever you want.

    But the thing with Aesop's Fables is that each story has the moral printed at the end of it, so we don't have to guess or really get to make up our own moral. The actual intended, and written, lesson, from the original greek, is:

    "this shows how liars are rewarded: even if they tell the truth, no one believes them".

    Note, the moral doesn't say 'wolves exist' or 'wolves might exist'.

    As you say, people forget the moral of the story. It seems, you included.
    No-one believes them when they tell the truth.

    "There is a wolf" was the truth.
    I didn't realise it was a true story?
    Ive got a wolf sitting on my lap at the moment (well its DNA is identical to a wolf but its a different race called a spaniel so I'm allowed to have it at home.

    Racism is allowed and institutionalise in ways that would have made Dr Verwoed salivate if you are Canus lupus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus
    A subspecies is basically scientific term for a race - there is no real scientific meaning and s lot of arguments over whether subspecies should exist at all.

    Dogs and Wolfs breed and produce viable fertile young and their DNA is no more divergent than mine is from a Japanese person.

    The dangerous dogs act is a totally racist bit of legislation as are the laws making it illegal to have a wolf (or any dog that is not at least three generations removed from a wolf) without a special dangerous animals licence.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    dr_spyn said:

    Is she a lawyer or a Yes Woman?

    Yes Woman would be a good title for an ironic remake of Yes Minister.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    With all else that's going on, Corbyn picked a good day to reshuffle. He could probably give Ken Livingstone a post and it would slip under the radar.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2016
    dr_spyn said:
    This reshuffle is going quicker that the previous ones for Corbyn.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    National - Asian American Voters - NAA Survey

    Clinton 55 .. Trump 14

    http://naasurvey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/NAAS2016-Oct5-report.pdf
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    dr_spyn said:
    Oh stop it, the excitement is killing me :-)
  • Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...

    Let's hope shadow is as senior as it gets.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...

    Let's hope shadow is as senior as it gets.
    Mind you, Diana Abbott is one of the least "shadow" like women you could expect to meet!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Herself has just come home. She has been shopping, including a visit to Waitrose. When did it become OK to add salt to chocolate, will someone please tell me?
  • dr_spyn said:

    Is she a lawyer or a Yes Woman?

    Yes Woman would be a good title for an ironic remake of Yes Minister.
    Someone suggested a remake set in the new Brexit Dept called " FFS Minister "
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    A superb article by Stanley, sums up just how I feel (and I suspect wht TM will romp home in 2020)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/theresa-may-has-closed-the-liberal-era-bring-on-christian-democr/

    Reminds me of those 'end of politics' articles that abounded when John Major won in 1992.
    Or, even worse, the end of history. I was vociferous against the idiocy of Fukuyama when he published in 1992, and remain so with a degree of smug self-satisfaction to this day.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...

    Wow, they actually found a way to make Amber Rudd look good.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. K, not so. I believe Burnham left the Shadow Cabinet to concentrate on his campaign to become Manchester's mayor.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114
    Any word on Falconer?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    edited October 2016
    Mr. Quidder, maybe.

    Rudd and Abbott must be the worst Home and Shadow Home pairing since... er...

    Edited extra bit: weren't two recent Aussie PMs called Rudd and Abbott?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...

    Let's hope shadow is as senior as it gets.
    Don't concern yourself on that score. As long as Jezza is safe then Shadow is as good as it gets. Still the pay increase might help with her private school fees.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited October 2016
    Spare a thought for Don Brind though. The Chief Whip gets sacked during his ' Labour Unity ' thread header. This is why I don't write thread headers.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    FF43 said:

    Diane Abbott. Shadow Home Secretary.

    Diane.Abbott.
    Shadow.. Home... Secretary..:.

    ...

    Let's hope shadow is as senior as it gets.
    Mind you, Diana Abbott is one of the least "shadow" like women you could expect to meet!
    The great thing about including her on the front bench is he doesn't need so many people to fill it.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Herself has just come home. She has been shopping, including a visit to Waitrose. When did it become OK to add salt to chocolate, will someone please tell me?

    Not sure, but salted caramel ice-cream is vile.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535

    Spare a thought for Don Brind though. The Chief Whip gets sacked during his ' Labour Unity ' thread header. This is why I don't right thread headers.

    Has she been sacked though, or just had enough? I mean who'd want to whip the current PLP?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    Diane Abbott, shadow home sec?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Mortimer said:

    Any word on Falconer?

    Resigned.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mortimer said:

    Any word on Falconer?

    Rumour has it that he's resigned .. probably .. :smile:
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JackW said:

    National - Asian American Voters - NAA Survey

    Clinton 55 .. Trump 14

    http://naasurvey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/NAAS2016-Oct5-report.pdf

    What happened to the other half ?

    Wait I think it's crap:

    "Asia Americans strongly oppose Muslims from entering the U.S (page 28)
    Asian Americans oppose an anti-Muslim ban by more than a 3-1 margin and all national origin groups are more likely to oppose than favor such a ban "

    Knowing religious tensions in asia between muslims and non-muslims I think the above is definitely incorrect.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Paul_Bedfordshire

    How you manage to type with a spaniel on your lap is beyond me. I struggle with a smallish and rather elderly cat.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2016
    The Corbyn Reshuffles should be up for a Best Comedy BAFTA this year.

    Is this a new reshuffle, or is he still finishing the one he started in March?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    tlg86 said:

    Diane Abbott, shadow home sec?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I would make a joke about that but there's not enough mind bleach
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    MikeK said:
    He announced he was stepping down a week ago or so
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Corbyn knows the best place for a woman is at home.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    National - Asian American Voters - NAA Survey

    Clinton 55 .. Trump 14

    http://naasurvey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/NAAS2016-Oct5-report.pdf

    What happened to the other half ?

    Wait I think it's crap:

    "Asia Americans strongly oppose Muslims from entering the U.S (page 28)
    Asian Americans oppose an anti-Muslim ban by more than a 3-1 margin and all national origin groups are more likely to oppose than favor such a ban "

    Knowing religious tensions in asia between muslims and non-muslims I think the above is definitely incorrect.
    "Asian-American" means people of East Asian background; Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Not cultures that have had much friction with Islam, and the whole talk of religious/racial immigration screening brings back memories of the Chinese Exclusion Act and the internment of the Japanese-Americans in WW2.
  • Has there ever been a weaker opposition?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    At what point does Diane Abbott get promoted to leader of the opposition?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
This discussion has been closed.