Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A look back to EURef: Even at 3.10am, five hours after coun

13

Comments

  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I called this for leave after Sunderland. I was not alone. The only ones who didn't were the ones who just did not want to believe it.

    Leave was certainly favourite after Sunderland, but it was Newcastle that tipped it in my mind. Staggering that Remain was favourite for another two hours or so.
    Yes. It was free money for those in a position to take advantage of it. Will we ever see markets so in denial again?
    I think Rubio finished 3rd so moves to odds on favourite must challenge it for irrationalness and lasted for days!
    Talking about Rubio he and Joe Heck got caught in a car crash in W.Virginia:
    https://twitter.com/PoliticoKevin/status/781967926458982400

    Good for them politically, but what where they doing in West Virginia so far from Nevada and Florida where they are running for the Senate ?
    Was there a secret GOP meeting in West Virginia or something ?
  • Options

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    The more you think about it is a master stroke by the PM
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    I obviously meant majority government in my time travel post.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
  • Options
    Jacob Rees Mogg on Sky endorsing PM's decision on taking all EU regs into UK law as the intelligent way to proceed
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I called this for leave after Sunderland. I was not alone. The only ones who didn't were the ones who just did not want to believe it.

    Leave was certainly favourite after Sunderland, but it was Newcastle that tipped it in my mind. Staggering that Remain was favourite for another two hours or so.
    Yes. It was free money for those in a position to take advantage of it. Will we ever see markets so in denial again?
    I think Rubio finished 3rd so moves to odds on favourite must challenge it for irrationalness and lasted for days!
    Talking about Rubio he and Joe Heck got caught in a car crash in W.Virginia:
    https://twitter.com/PoliticoKevin/status/781967926458982400

    Good for them politically, but what where they doing in West Virginia so far from Nevada and Florida where they are running for the Senate ?
    Was there a secret GOP meeting in West Virginia or something ?
    Probably no connection but West Virginia has the worst youth drug problem in the USA.

    http://wvpublic.org/post/drug-overdoses-claiming-west-virginias-youth
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Doesn't that only prove that time travel in a backwards direction is impossible?
    I'm not going to say a thing about what I saw in a finance channel circa early 1999.
    And what I read in a newspaper later on.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    edited October 2016
    Essexit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
    Not really. Like all in inventions it would at first be incredibly expensive and incredibly rare, but given time would become affordable and available to more people. Why would they all use invisibility? It would be no time at all before someone became tempted to appear and intervene in history. But there is no evidence for it ever having happened. Apart from whatshername in Outlander, of course.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    And then have the freedom to repeal the bits we don't want...
    And that's where parliament gets to have its say. I wonder if this is a nod to the Article 50 court case?
    I wonder what would happen if Pariament doesn't approve this bill.
    Chaos if it subsequently repeals the 72 act
  • Options
    Theresa May says she will not wait until the German elections in 2017 before serving Article 50
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Doesn't that only prove that time travel in a backwards direction is impossible?
    Fair point.
    On the other hand rcs1000 might be right about the invisibility cloaks.

    Also, I'm not sure anyone would want to do forward time travel unless they knew they could come back again. It probably wouldn't be very nice to be stuck in the future indefinitely.
    Backwards time travel might be possible if you need a portal to arrive at. Since we don't have the portals, they can't drop by 2016 for a cup of coffee (which no doubt will be banned in 3016).
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    edited October 2016

    Jacob Rees Mogg on Sky endorsing PM's decision on taking all EU regs into UK law as the intelligent way to proceed

    So it can't possibly make sense then. We just have to find the catch.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    Adopting all EU laws into British law will be ironic. In practice, I suspect few will be repealed, because nearly all are sensible protections. I think the battles afterwards with the hard right will see most of them intactfor this reason.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Any analysis about time travel has to start from the viewpoint that anything that is possible, no matter how inadvisable, will have been tried by someone at some point.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,108
    edited October 2016

    Jacob Rees Mogg on Sky endorsing PM's decision on taking all EU regs into UK law as the intelligent way to proceed

    I remember Dan Hannan saying something similar during the campaign, that on the day we leave all the law we have will be the same, and it will then be up to Parliament to decide what to change over time. The key point was that Parliament was now properly sovereign again, and could change what the hell it likes.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Still, it's always handy for the hard right to reveal its true intentions.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    IanB2 said:

    Essexit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
    Not really. Like all in inventions it would at first be incredibly expensive and incredibly rare, but given time would become affordable and available to more people. Why would they all use invisibility? It would be no time at all before someone became tempted to appear and intervene in history. But there is no evidence for it ever having happened. Apart from whatshername in Outlander, of course.
    All true, but my point was that if you had a time machine, the invisibility cloak wouldn't need to have been invented *before* it for you to get one.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,108
    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
  • Options
    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    RobD said:

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    No, unless we magically get membership of the common market by virtue of said act (we won't).
    The vote was to leave the European Union.

    However Theresa May is taking the UK into the Union du Europe.

    Anyhoo, Ed Balls is about to dance the Charleston dressed as a cowboy on Strictly right now
    Tut, tut, Eagles. Everyone knows that 'du' before a noun starting with a vowel becomes 'de l''

    Union de l'Europe.
    TSE's public school education :innocent:
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052

    Theresa May absolutely rules out a General Election before 2020

    I wonder if she is simply playing politics with red meat issues like grammar schools, knowing full well that she hasn't a hope that they will go through, whilst tracking the party to the centre. A wafer thin majority helps her immensely.

    May may well prove to be a very astute politician indeed.....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    A very interesting move indeed.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
    Eh? 'Brexiters wasn't a referendum'??

    The Tory party is increasing eurosceptic. And for now, we're the only show in Govt. town. And we're determined to remove the unnecessary and downright detrimental as soon as we can.

    Inertia proves little use when approaching immoveable objects.....
  • Options

    Jacob Rees Mogg on Sky endorsing PM's decision on taking all EU regs into UK law as the intelligent way to proceed

    Yes we have all the time in the world to expunge the ones we dont want and rewrite the ones we do in the future (much as RoI are currently doing with old UK ones)
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Essexit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Essexit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
    Not really. Like all in inventions it would at first be incredibly expensive and incredibly rare, but given time would become affordable and available to more people. Why would they all use invisibility? It would be no time at all before someone became tempted to appear and intervene in history. But there is no evidence for it ever having happened. Apart from whatshername in Outlander, of course.
    All true, but my point was that if you had a time machine, the invisibility cloak wouldn't need to have been invented *before* it for you to get one.
    I thought invisibility cloaks pretty much exist already.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/20/health/invisibility-cloaks-research/

    Can't be bothered to find it, but I've seen video of it deployed on a military vehicle, so all you see is the scenery behind the vehicle with a little distortion.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Rubbish. We can be good neighbours without continuing now stale European Union affair,

    Arguably, we can be better neighbours - cos we won't keep sniping and will prove a useful element of healthy competition with our European friends.

    I'm willing the EU to succeed, and the UK to succeed.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
    Eh? 'Brexiters wasn't a referendum'??

    The Tory party is increasing eurosceptic. And for now, we're the only show in Govt. town. And we're determined to remove the unnecessary and downright detrimental as soon as we can.

    Inertia proves little use when approaching immoveable objects.....
    Yet May has just announced the whole lot is going into UK law. Kicking your great bonfire into the at least medium length grass. That's the paradox. By ruling out the great right wing fantasy of regulatory bonfire she makes Brexit more likely to actually happen.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Essexit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
    Not if the first time traveller first jumped forward, stole an invisibility cloak from his future, then came back in time with it to before time travel was invented ...
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,588
    Essexit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Essexit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    If anyone invents time travel, they need to go back to April 2015 and tell people that in 18 months time we would have voted to leave the EU, Theresa May would be PM of a Tory minority government and Ed Balls.would be mostly known for his dancing

    Surely the proof that time travel is impossible is that we have never seen any time travellers appear from the future, even at the pivotal historical moments that any time traveller would choose to visit?
    Surely all that proves is that decent invisibility cloaks are invented before time travel.
    Wouldn't have to have been (will have going to be) before.
    Not really. Like all in inventions it would at first be incredibly expensive and incredibly rare, but given time would become affordable and available to more people. Why would they all use invisibility? It would be no time at all before someone became tempted to appear and intervene in history. But there is no evidence for it ever having happened. Apart from whatshername in Outlander, of course.
    All true, but my point was that if you had a time machine, the invisibility cloak wouldn't need to have been invented *before* it for you to get one.
    Invisibility cloaks already exist. They're not perfect, but they're pretty good - they work by fibre-optics which make each point on the front of the cloak look like what the view from the back of the cloak looks like.
    http://science.howstuffworks.com/invisibility-cloak.htm
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    RobD said:

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    No, unless we magically get membership of the common market by virtue of said act (we won't).
    The vote was to leave the European Union.

    However Theresa May is taking the UK into the Union du Europe.

    Anyhoo, Ed Balls is about to dance the Charleston dressed as a cowboy on Strictly right now
    Tut, tut, Eagles. Everyone knows that 'du' before a noun starting with a vowel becomes 'de l''

    Union de l'Europe.
    TSE's public school education :innocent:
    Sunil, it's worse but I didn't want to be too harsh on young Eagles. Europe is feminine in French, not the masculine of 'du'.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    Plenty? Really? I guess at best it suggests we have moved off from first base. But commentators were predicting that we would have to incorporate all EU law into British law months ago.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    This move to put all EU law under UK control seems a sensible move.

    So I expect the Lords to oppose it.

  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    @Yellow Submarine

    Ultimately, when I get into any kind of discussion with Brexit people (which I do try to avoid) they always throw at me the EU is failing...look at poor Greece and Italy, it is only a matter of time, better to jump ship now, bla..bla..bla....

    If they are right, then Brexit will be better for the UK. No doubt about it. Better to extricate ourself now, and free ourselves from the yoke of this destructive union, rather than later. But Europe will be a much worse place. I think it is better and ultimately more altruistic to think that Britain made a silly mistake that it will come to regret and will rectify in the future, albeit with a bit of said yoke over our face.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
    Eh? 'Brexiters wasn't a referendum'??

    The Tory party is increasing eurosceptic. And for now, we're the only show in Govt. town. And we're determined to remove the unnecessary and downright detrimental as soon as we can.

    Inertia proves little use when approaching immoveable objects.....
    Yet May has just announced the whole lot is going into UK law. Kicking your great bonfire into the at least medium length grass. That's the paradox. By ruling out the great right wing fantasy of regulatory bonfire she makes Brexit more likely to actually happen.
    Yes, which is why it's an interesting move. The biggest hurdle to Brexit has been put off until after we leave. Smart move. One that is hurting remoaners the most, judging by the reaction.
  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    So europhile like me can and will chuckle that we'll enjoy seeing the whole acquis put into UK law. It will also make it easier to fight repeal. The battles will longer, fought on domestic ground and will be much more single issue based. However we need to accept that by skillfully avoiding the quagmire May makes Brexit actually happening much more likely and simpler.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
    Eh? 'Brexiters wasn't a referendum'??

    The Tory party is increasing eurosceptic. And for now, we're the only show in Govt. town. And we're determined to remove the unnecessary and downright detrimental as soon as we can.

    Inertia proves little use when approaching immoveable objects.....
    Yet May has just announced the whole lot is going into UK law. Kicking your great bonfire into the at least medium length grass. That's the paradox. By ruling out the great right wing fantasy of regulatory bonfire she makes Brexit more likely to actually happen.
    And that is what she means by 'Brexit means Brexit'
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    If we leave you do realise we will never ever return. It's inconceivable. Look at the polling on EU membership in Norway and Switzerland. Affluent countries no longer want to join. At all.
    The hurdles would be gargantuan. However at key points since 1945 both us us ever joining or ever leaving would have been considered " Inconceivable ".
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Rubbish. We can be good neighbours without continuing now stale European Union affair,

    Arguably, we can be better neighbours - cos we won't keep sniping and will prove a useful element of healthy competition with our European friends.

    I'm willing the EU to succeed, and the UK to succeed.
    Tyson is just a blimpish EU imperialist, bitter about a lost colony and pining for its humiliation. A sad Tuscan relic.
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited October 2016

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    The paradox ( which May appears to have understood ) is that the more radical Brexit is the last likely it is to happen. He ' domestication ' approach to EU law radically supplies the process and avoids a gargantuan quagmire as Brexit became about making it easier to kill song birds in mating season, import illegally logged timber or downgrade safety features on car child seats.

    Sheer delusion. The battles will be much easier to fight once we've Brexited.

    So, European Working Time directive - do we want that on our books? Nah, it's one of those dozy 'European' rules. We're hard working Brits.
    I think by " sheer delusion " you mean you disagree with me. Brexit is a ' useful crisis '. Inertia is very powerful. If the whole corpus of EU law is put into British law and downgrades have be fought for individually it will be harder to dilute that the lot being scrapped and advocates having to argue for pieces to be proactively readopted.
    Indeed, inertia was so powerful that Remain won....


    Oh, wait...
    That was a referendum. It's why Brexiters wasn't a referendum. Assembling a parliamentary majority for Brexit would have been too much like hard work. Just as ripping to shreds the corpus of EU consumer, social and environmental protections will be once it relies on a UK Act.
    Eh? 'Brexiters wasn't a referendum'??

    The Tory party is increasing eurosceptic. And for now, we're the only show in Govt. town. And we're determined to remove the unnecessary and downright detrimental as soon as we can.

    Inertia proves little use when approaching immoveable objects.....
    Yet May has just announced the whole lot is going into UK law. Kicking your great bonfire into the at least medium length grass. That's the paradox. By ruling out the great right wing fantasy of regulatory bonfire she makes Brexit more likely to actually happen.
    Rubbish. There was never any other realistic way of doing it. Only a fool would have thought otherwise.

    The measures are already in UK law as secondary legislation. All this does is keep that secondary legislation alive when the 72 act is repealed.

    The difference is that parliament will then be able to ditch or amend the bits it dosent want, when it wants. As it is all secondary legislation it wont even need a vote in the house in a lot.

    My first letters to MPs will be on EU seed selling legislation and various railway related matters.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,571
    Sandpit said:

    The resurrection of Damien Greens career has been all but ignored. The fact that this humane, money saving and minor change is utterly radical is telling about the IDS regime. < The Telegraph: Reassessment tests for sickness benefit claimants with severe illnesses to be scrapped. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8tySpS4

    Sensible change and one of many to come to benefit those in need.
    Agree, a good tweak that saves money and helps a lot of those who were caught in the net with the last changes. At least it shows that the people in charge are listening to the problems on the ground, in what is just about the most difficult area of public policy to get right.
    It almost makes me weep that this was even necessary. IDS is a fucking idiot who should not be left in charge of a bus queue.

    And Cameron was wrong to discard Damien Green. A genuinely decent and clever man.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,137
    SeanT said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    If we leave you do realise we will never ever return. It's inconceivable. Look at the polling on EU membership in Norway and Switzerland. Affluent countries no longer want to join. At all.
    Everything is somewhat conceivable. But it seems highly improbable - even if we failed and they succeeded to the extent we'd swallow our pride and beg to be let back in, and all-in this time, they would never want us back in.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    We can imagine the scene when the Brexiteer anti immigrants have got their way and sent all the Polish plumbers back home . SeanT calls an emergency plumber number and a participant from Jeremy Kyles last show turns up demands £ 300 up front and goes leaving a worse problem than he had before .
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,108

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,690
    Ed Balls. Oh dear. What an dreadful man.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    tyson said:

    @Yellow Submarine

    Ultimately, when I get into any kind of discussion with Brexit people (which I do try to avoid) they always throw at me the EU is failing...look at poor Greece and Italy, it is only a matter of time, better to jump ship now, bla..bla..bla....

    If they are right, then Brexit will be better for the UK. No doubt about it. Better to extricate ourself now, and free ourselves from the yoke of this destructive union, rather than later. But Europe will be a much worse place. I think it is better and ultimately more altruistic to think that Britain made a silly mistake that it will come to regret and will rectify in the future, albeit with a bit of said yoke over our face.

    Tyson, you're seeing this in a too black and white sense. No one is going to face an apocalypse and no one is going to see growth akin to China once rid of the other side. More likely it will be a boring middle road where we recover after we leave and do well for ourselves and the EU continues on the same path and pushes a few other countries towards the exit to allow full integration of the countries that want it to create a smaller more focussed EU state.
  • Options
    Theresa WILL :)
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,295
    MaxPB said:

    A very interesting move indeed.

    Surely it was the only logical way to proceed.
  • Options
    @faisalislam: 4/5 Single Market: The withdrawal from ECJ jurisdiction would be clearest signal of not being members of it

    5/5 Scotland - Scottish law might also have to change too to end ECJ jurisdiction. Aren't the votes in Holyrood. Could get interesting.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    What happened to Socrates? I seem to remember him being banned, though can't remember over what. I do remember him being somewhat left wing for US politics and right wing, perhaps even UKIP-ish, for British politics.

    I just found myself thinking that certain PB posters surprise me on how they come down on certain specific policy issues, which in turn made me think of Socrates, as he was constantly surprising me.
  • Options

    We can imagine the scene when the Brexiteer anti immigrants have got their way and sent all the Polish plumbers back home . SeanT calls an emergency plumber number and a participant from Jeremy Kyles last show turns up demands £ 300 up front and goes leaving a worse problem than he had before .

    You sound very bitter - I am a Brexiteer and do not want EU trades people sending home. Indeed with the house building needed we may well have to allow more but the point is that we must have control and we must decide who can come into country.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    SeanT said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    A more likely outcome is that the EU further unifies, to an extent, and survives. But generally is still rather sluggish. Meanwhile Britain - after initial pain - grows faster, and is certainly politically happier, more comfortable in its own skin.

    So nobody will face apocalypse. Cheer up.


    @seanT- tell me how that works...that the EU remains intact and strengthens- but we flourish on the outside...ie outside the greatest free market the world has ever created.

    Have you read anything about global capitalism? Do you simply ignore the threats made by global industries that they will not invest in the UK post Brexit- the Japanese, banks etc... Do you just think that is some Remain propaganda? Who will invest in the UK when they can invest in Dublin, or Frankfurt, or wherever and have access to the market?

    Or are you living in the deluded world of Liam Fox talking absolute bollocks?

    As said (unless you can come up with some argument I haven't read) Brexit will succeed if the EU fails....and there are many, many people who are willing that on. I'm not one of them.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    A very interesting move indeed.

    Surely it was the only logical way to proceed.
    Absolutely, which is what makes it so interesting. It may lead to the kind of Brexit we've been discussing here.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    edited October 2016
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    The resurrection of Damien Greens career has been all but ignored. The fact that this humane, money saving and minor change is utterly radical is telling about the IDS regime. < The Telegraph: Reassessment tests for sickness benefit claimants with severe illnesses to be scrapped. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8tySpS4

    Sensible change and one of many to come to benefit those in need.
    Agree, a good tweak that saves money and helps a lot of those who were caught in the net with the last changes. At least it shows that the people in charge are listening to the problems on the ground, in what is just about the most difficult area of public policy to get right.
    It almost makes me weep that this was even necessary. IDS is a fucking idiot who should not be left in charge of a bus queue.

    And Cameron was wrong to discard Damien Green. A genuinely decent and clever man.
    Osborne breathing down his neck demanding immediate cuts to a long term project that would have structurally reduced the benefits budget likely the cause of any perceived harm.

    IDS and Green without Osbo would have been a different story.

    One of Cameron's abiding flaws was sticking by his political pals. Almost always until it was too late.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601
    MaxPB said:

    tyson said:

    @Yellow Submarine

    Ultimately, when I get into any kind of discussion with Brexit people (which I do try to avoid) they always throw at me the EU is failing...look at poor Greece and Italy, it is only a matter of time, better to jump ship now, bla..bla..bla....

    If they are right, then Brexit will be better for the UK. No doubt about it. Better to extricate ourself now, and free ourselves from the yoke of this destructive union, rather than later. But Europe will be a much worse place. I think it is better and ultimately more altruistic to think that Britain made a silly mistake that it will come to regret and will rectify in the future, albeit with a bit of said yoke over our face.

    Tyson, you're seeing this in a too black and white sense. No one is going to face an apocalypse and no one is going to see growth akin to China once rid of the other side. More likely it will be a boring middle road where we recover after we leave and do well for ourselves and the EU continues on the same path and pushes a few other countries towards the exit to allow full integration of the countries that want it to create a smaller more focussed EU state.
    If everything in the global economy were peaceful and quiet, perhaps. But you don't need that much insight to look around and see in what perilous times we are all currently living.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    A more likely outcome is that the EU further unifies, to an extent, and survives. But generally is still rather sluggish. Meanwhile Britain - after initial pain - grows faster, and is certainly politically happier, more comfortable in its own skin.

    So nobody will face apocalypse. Cheer up.


    @seanT- tell me how that works...that the EU remains intact and strengthens- but we flourish on the outside...ie outside the greatest free market the world has ever created.

    Have you read anything about global capitalism? Do you simply ignore the threats made by global industries that they will not invest in the UK post Brexit- the Japanese, banks etc... Do you just think that is some Remain propaganda? Who will invest in the UK when they can invest in Dublin, or Frankfurt, or wherever and have access to the market?

    Or are you living in the deluded world of Liam Fox talking absolute bollocks?

    As said (unless you can come up with some argument I haven't read) Brexit will succeed if the EU fails....and there are many, many people who are willing that on. I'm not one of them.
    Remain propaganda, sure.

    Just like the threats to pull out if we didn't join the Euro.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.
    Of course. The prospect of change is alarming. But Brexit will become the status quo.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.

    Given the fear and pressure brought to bear by the establishment, it's amazing that Leave won by that much.

    But a win is a win.

    Miracles do happen.

  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    And your comparison of our 43 years of EU membership and Ireland's centuries of colonial oppression by England/Britain is facile.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,295
    edited October 2016
    MTimT said:

    What happened to Socrates? I seem to remember him being banned, though can't remember over what. I do remember him being somewhat left wing for US politics and right wing, perhaps even UKIP-ish, for British politics.

    I just found myself thinking that certain PB posters surprise me on how they come down on certain specific policy issues, which in turn made me think of Socrates, as he was constantly surprising me.

    If you haven't been banned at least twice from PB, you're not a real poster and are probably just a Mike Smithson sock puppet.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.
    Of course. The prospect of change is alarming. But Brexit will become the status quo.
    Remain was the Status Quo. And it lost.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
    They are not many winnable seats that are vacated by current Tory MP's.

    Hilary Benn should have defected and ran for Witney under the Tory banner in the by-election when he had the chance.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,108

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
    One or two crossing the floor this week would go down well ;)
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On the Theresa May interview: is that it? I'd hoped we might have something a bit more insightful by now.

    Still, 18% think that it's all going to plan.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,556
    It's possible that the UK may one day rejoin the EU, but I suspect that pretty much everyone here will be long dead before that calamity.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
    One or two crossing the floor this week would go down well ;)
    On Wednesday just before the PM's conference speech would be good
  • Options
    I know the last time I posted a tweet by Jolyon Maugham it violated some Leavers' safe space, so consider this your trigger warning

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/782306086170816512
  • Options
    TimTim Posts: 44
    edited October 2016
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I thought we had something called the European Communities Act of 1972 which allowed EU law to become UK law. Wouldn't we decide what bits of EU legislation we chose to keep as part of the A50 negotiation and then bundle up the new "order" as a new Act of Parliament once A50 had been concluded.

    Er, no.

    Have you any idea how much of our law has cumulatively come from the EU?

    How on earth could we decide within 2 years what to keep and what not? Do you think that laws are simple, and one just says "oh, we'll have that one" but "that one's a bit rum, let's reject"

    In most cases, those we don't like will be amended or replaced with an alternative. Think of the issues - agricultural support, sustainability of fishing, migration, employment rights, and many more areas. But that is to talk in generalities.

    Now think of the specifics: the reporting processes that pharmaceutical companies must comply with, the tariffs on New Zealand lamb, the emissions standards of HGVs. This is to touch on perhaps 0.01% of the issues affected.

    To reset all our law at the moment of exit would be an affront to Parliamentary democracy, a practical near impossibility for the legal machine to digest and a wrecking ball on stable functioning of the economy.

    May's plan is the sensible way.

    It has the added advantage of giving us a bit of leverage should the Europeans prove tricky about negotiating a reasonable settlement. It shows that constitutionally the ball is in our court, and we may fire the gun on actual Brexit as and when we please.
  • Options
    Bitterness in remainers going off the scale tonight. Wherefore that glorious May day in 1997 now.....
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,295

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    It will include absolutely everything. They are going for the "write all the EU stuff into British law then worry about amending it all later" approach. Pragmatically sensible. But it will leave some of the ultra-Brexiteers wondering why we bothered, at least in the short term.
    This is surely just a procedural thing to stop all the secondary laws under the 1972 act becoming void when the 1972 act is repealed.
    Exactly
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    The resurrection of Damien Greens career has been all but ignored. The fact that this humane, money saving and minor change is utterly radical is telling about the IDS regime. < The Telegraph: Reassessment tests for sickness benefit claimants with severe illnesses to be scrapped. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8tySpS4

    Sensible change and one of many to come to benefit those in need.
    Agree, a good tweak that saves money and helps a lot of those who were caught in the net with the last changes. At least it shows that the people in charge are listening to the problems on the ground, in what is just about the most difficult area of public policy to get right.
    It almost makes me weep that this was even necessary. IDS is a fucking idiot who should not be left in charge of a bus queue.

    And Cameron was wrong to discard Damien Green. A genuinely decent and clever man.
    Osborne breathing down his neck demanding immediate cuts to a long term project that would have structurally reduced the benefits budget likely the cause of any perceived harm.
    IDS and Green without Osbo would have been a different story.
    One of Cameron's abiding flaws was sticking by his political pals. Almost always until it was too late.
    The fundamental fault line of Cameron's chumocracy. Appointment on basis of chums and not on merit.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,571

    Ed Balls. Oh dear. What an dreadful man.

    Rubbish. George is once again spot on. Go Ed.
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.
    Not as close as the Quebec Referendum of 1995:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum,_1995
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    And your comparison of our 43 years of EU membership and Ireland's centuries of colonial oppression by England/Britain is facile.
    Not in the least. It was a sincerely believed in cause that became a lost cause. As is commitment to the EU today.
  • Options

    I know the last time I posted a tweet by Jolyon Maugham it violated some Leavers' safe space, so consider this your trigger warning

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/782306086170816512

    Yes, that was my thought as well. Though as it would deliver what the A50 challenge was seeking that's fair enough.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    Tim said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I thought we had something called the European Communities Act of 1972 which allowed EU law to become UK law. Wouldn't we decide what bits of EU legislation we chose to keep as part of the A50 negotiation and then bundle up the new "order" as a new Act of Parliament once A50 had been concluded.

    Er, no.

    Have you any idea how much of our law has cumulatively come from the EU?

    How on earth could we decide within 2 years what to keep and what not? Do you think that laws are simple, and one just says "oh, we'll have that one" but "that one's a bit rum, let's reject"

    In most cases, those we don't like will be amended or replaced with an alternative. Think of the issues - agricultural support, sustainability of fishing, migration, employment rights, and many more areas. But that is to talk in generalities.

    Now think of the specifics: the reporting processes that pharmaceutical companies must comply with, the tariffs on New Zealand lamb, the emissions standards of HGVs. This is to touch on perhaps 0.01% of the issues affected.

    To reset all our law at the moment of exit would be an affront to Parliamentary democracy, a practical near impossibility for the legal machine to digest and a wrecking ball on stable functioning of the economy.

    May's plan is the sensible way.

    It has the added advantage of giving us a bit of leverage should the Europeans prove tricky about negotiating a reasonable settlement. It shows that constitutionally the ball is in our court, and we may fire the gun on actual Brexit as and when we please.
    Is this the "tim"? If so, welcome back.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,571
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    The resurrection of Damien Greens career has been all but ignored. The fact that this humane, money saving and minor change is utterly radical is telling about the IDS regime. < The Telegraph: Reassessment tests for sickness benefit claimants with severe illnesses to be scrapped. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8tySpS4

    Sensible change and one of many to come to benefit those in need.
    Agree, a good tweak that saves money and helps a lot of those who were caught in the net with the last changes. At least it shows that the people in charge are listening to the problems on the ground, in what is just about the most difficult area of public policy to get right.
    It almost makes me weep that this was even necessary. IDS is a fucking idiot who should not be left in charge of a bus queue.

    And Cameron was wrong to discard Damien Green. A genuinely decent and clever man.
    Osborne breathing down his neck demanding immediate cuts to a long term project that would have structurally reduced the benefits budget likely the cause of any perceived harm.

    IDS and Green without Osbo would have been a different story.

    One of Cameron's abiding flaws was sticking by his political pals. Almost always until it was too late.
    No, that won't do. This will save money. Testing the terminally ill was just sick. And vicious. And pointless. And repugnant. IDS = scum. It's that simple.
  • Options

    Bitterness in remainers going off the scale tonight. Wherefore that glorious May day in 1997 now.....

    Brexit Wounds?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
    One or two crossing the floor this week would go down well ;)
    On Wednesday just before the PM's conference speech would be good
    Their challenge is that they won't win their seats under the Tory flag.
    We have analysed it a lot on PB.

    Since most Labour "moderates" are in safe Labour seats there is no way for them to win if they stand as Tories in those seats, the Tory party will have to make way for them in safe Tory seats and how many Tory MP's will be happy to retire to give way to Labour "moderates" ?

    If they didn't defect to stand as Tories in Witney they won't defect later.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Brexit means...

    @Reuters: Britain to enshrine all EU rules in UK law after Brexit: ITV reut.rs/2dlJLdM pic.twitter.com/IhqgrQNe0c

    Interesting when combined with the IDS policy paper that says "We have no fucking idea how any of this works, but the courts can sort it out..."

    I am unable to quantify in words just how much control it seems we have taken back, I am too overwhelmed by the amount of Sovereignty right now
  • Options

    I know the last time I posted a tweet by Jolyon Maugham it violated some Leavers' safe space,

    Looks like the referendum result violated YOUR safe space :lol:

    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    SeanT said:

    Pong said:

    That's hilarious.

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Which means, erm....

    Interesting. Does this include freedom of movement?

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/782277449304379392

    We're voting Leave to take control and enshrine EU law into UK law
    This is, of course, the very best way to make a success of Leave. To do it slowly and safely and surgically. Gradually unwrapping the dead hand of Europe from our British throat. Finger by finger

    The fact this might well work is what annoys Remainians most of all. They want Brexit to fail.
    The conundrum is this Sean.....

    Brexit will succeed if the EU implodes over the next years. It will fail, if the EU consolidates and strengthens. The destiny of the two are interlocked, and mutually incompatible.

    I personally do not want the EU to fail. I would much (much) rather Brexit fails and the UK to re-join with our tail between our legs much as we did in the early 70's. The prospect of the EU imploding and being riven by chaos, acrimony and possibly much worse, is a more serious prospect for the world in my opinion.

    But that said, there are plenty of pbERS who are willing the EU to fail no matter how much damage it will cause for future generations. They are the same kind who are supporting Trump.
    Spot on Tyson. And we start from a much higher base than the outers did post 1975. Every scrap of the Eurosphere we can save in Britain post Brexit makes the historic task of reunion easier. Or at the very least more possible. And your crucial point is the matter isn't entirely in our own hands. If the EU doesn't collapse in acrimony it ruins a key plank of so many Brexiters plans.
    British Public opinion splits about 70/30 Eurosceptic/Europhile according to Nat Soc Cen. You're in the position of Southern Irish Unionists after 1922.
    Yet you won by less than 4%.
    Of course. The prospect of change is alarming. But Brexit will become the status quo.
    Remain was the Status Quo. And it lost.
    That shows how momentous the change was. A swing of 19% from 1975.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    @Mortimer....
    Please give me the evidence of capital being drawn to the UK post Brexit? I have only seen the converse unless I have missed something.

    Exporters (who do not rely on imports) and tourism are making a short term gain.

    But ultimately, foreign capital will only invest en masse in the UK if they can access the single market. But if the single market implodes, as I think many Brexiters hope for, then Brexit may be prescient.

    Of course we could always negotiate access to the single market, accept freedom of Labour, and keep with EU legislation if the EU exists......

  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    Tim said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I thought we had something called the European Communities Act of 1972 which allowed EU law to become UK law. Wouldn't we decide what bits of EU legislation we chose to keep as part of the A50 negotiation and then bundle up the new "order" as a new Act of Parliament once A50 had been concluded.

    Er, no.

    Have you any idea how much of our law has cumulatively come from the EU?

    How on earth could we decide within 2 years what to keep and what not? Do you think that laws are simple, and one just says "oh, we'll have that one" but "that one's a bit rum, let's reject"

    In most cases, those we don't like will be amended or replaced with an alternative. Think of the issues - agricultural support, sustainability of fishing, migration, employment rights, and many more areas. But that is to talk in generalities.

    Now think of the specifics: the reporting processes that pharmaceutical companies must comply with, the tariffs on New Zealand lamb, the emissions standards of HGVs. This is to touch on perhaps 0.01% of the issues affected.

    To reset all our law at the moment of exit would be an affront to Parliamentary democracy, a practical near impossibility for the legal machine to digest and a wrecking ball on stable functioning of the economy.

    May's plan is the sensible way.

    It has the added advantage of giving us a bit of leverage should the Europeans prove tricky about negotiating a reasonable settlement. It shows that constitutionally the ball is in our court, and we may fire the gun on actual Brexit as and when we please.
    Is this the "tim"? If so, welcome back.
    I am tim! :lol:
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    And of course "UK Law" is a bit of a misnomer...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    Scott_P said:

    Brexit means...

    @Reuters: Britain to enshrine all EU rules in UK law after Brexit: ITV reut.rs/2dlJLdM pic.twitter.com/IhqgrQNe0c

    Interesting when combined with the IDS policy paper that says "We have no fucking idea how any of this works, but the courts can sort it out..."

    I am unable to quantify in words just how much control it seems we have taken back, I am too overwhelmed by the amount of Sovereignty right now

    It means we can pick and choose exactly what we want to keep or repeal. It is the very definition of sovereignty.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223
    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    The resurrection of Damien Greens career has been all but ignored. The fact that this humane, money saving and minor change is utterly radical is telling about the IDS regime. < The Telegraph: Reassessment tests for sickness benefit claimants with severe illnesses to be scrapped. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw8tySpS4

    Sensible change and one of many to come to benefit those in need.
    Agree, a good tweak that saves money and helps a lot of those who were caught in the net with the last changes. At least it shows that the people in charge are listening to the problems on the ground, in what is just about the most difficult area of public policy to get right.
    It almost makes me weep that this was even necessary. IDS is a fucking idiot who should not be left in charge of a bus queue.

    And Cameron was wrong to discard Damien Green. A genuinely decent and clever man.
    Osborne breathing down his neck demanding immediate cuts to a long term project that would have structurally reduced the benefits budget likely the cause of any perceived harm.

    IDS and Green without Osbo would have been a different story.

    One of Cameron's abiding flaws was sticking by his political pals. Almost always until it was too late.
    No, that won't do. This will save money. Testing the terminally ill was just sick. And vicious. And pointless. And repugnant. IDS = scum. It's that simple.
    Clearly Cameron and Osborne were happy with what he was doing. Remember, IDS resigned, he wasn't sacked.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Bitterness in remainers going off the scale tonight. Wherefore that glorious May day in 1997 now.....

    Not really, I am quite happy that all our European laws are going to be enshrined in British law. It means that the nature of Brexit will be decided by Parliament as a whole rather than the PM.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    SeanT said:

    If this EU law thing is true then May is proving herself a very astute politician, so far.

    There was an interesting Red Box in the Times a few days ago which critiqued all the recent books on Cameron and Brexit, and said the one firm conclusion was that May was a very considerable political operator, and much more cunning than Cameron.

    It's early days. Honeymoon period. But we might have found the one politician who can successfully traverse this minefield.

    At least it shows that plenty of thought is finally being put into what happens next. That the Civil Service were told not to even think about leaving the EU until after Cameron had resigned, was one of that man's greatest failings in the job.

    I'm looking forward to this week, hopefully we will see some good policy ideas from Mrs May's team, and by the end of it a good idea of the government's priorities for the coming year.
    And the end of the labour party as a credible alternative government
    That was pretty much a given after last week's shambles. The infighting vs the antisemitism isn't going to win anything soon.
    How long before labour MP's join the May government
    One or two crossing the floor this week would go down well ;)
    On Wednesday just before the PM's conference speech would be good
    Their challenge is that they won't win their seats under the Tory flag.
    We have analysed it a lot on PB.

    Since most Labour "moderates" are in safe Labour seats there is no way for them to win if they stand as Tories in those seats, the Tory party will have to make way for them in safe Tory seats and how many Tory MP's will be happy to retire to give way to Labour "moderates" ?

    If they didn't defect to stand as Tories in Witney they won't defect later.
    But they may deny the labour whip and vote for conservative legislation. I think someone in labour voted against his own whip over 500 times
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,295
    MaxPB said:

    Tim said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I thought we had something called the European Communities Act of 1972 which allowed EU law to become UK law. Wouldn't we decide what bits of EU legislation we chose to keep as part of the A50 negotiation and then bundle up the new "order" as a new Act of Parliament once A50 had been concluded.

    Er, no.

    Have you any idea how much of our law has cumulatively come from the EU?

    How on earth could we decide within 2 years what to keep and what not? Do you think that laws are simple, and one just says "oh, we'll have that one" but "that one's a bit rum, let's reject"

    In most cases, those we don't like will be amended or replaced with an alternative. Think of the issues - agricultural support, sustainability of fishing, migration, employment rights, and many more areas. But that is to talk in generalities.

    Now think of the specifics: the reporting processes that pharmaceutical companies must comply with, the tariffs on New Zealand lamb, the emissions standards of HGVs. This is to touch on perhaps 0.01% of the issues affected.

    To reset all our law at the moment of exit would be an affront to Parliamentary democracy, a practical near impossibility for the legal machine to digest and a wrecking ball on stable functioning of the economy.

    May's plan is the sensible way.

    It has the added advantage of giving us a bit of leverage should the Europeans prove tricky about negotiating a reasonable settlement. It shows that constitutionally the ball is in our court, and we may fire the gun on actual Brexit as and when we please.
    Is this the "tim"? If so, welcome back.
    Being nice about a Conservative politician? This can't be the 'tim' of old.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    And of course "UK Law" is a bit of a misnomer...

    Indeed and I see some people on twitter are saying that what Mrs May is proposing is incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tim said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    I thought we had something called the European Communities Act of 1972 which allowed EU law to become UK law. Wouldn't we decide what bits of EU legislation we chose to keep as part of the A50 negotiation and then bundle up the new "order" as a new Act of Parliament once A50 had been concluded.

    Er, no.

    Have you any idea how much of our law has cumulatively come from the EU?

    How on earth could we decide within 2 years what to keep and what not? Do you think that laws are simple, and one just says "oh, we'll have that one" but "that one's a bit rum, let's reject"

    In most cases, those we don't like will be amended or replaced with an alternative. Think of the issues - agricultural support, sustainability of fishing, migration, employment rights, and many more areas. But that is to talk in generalities.

    Now think of the specifics: the reporting processes that pharmaceutical companies must comply with, the tariffs on New Zealand lamb, the emissions standards of HGVs. This is to touch on perhaps 0.01% of the issues affected.

    To reset all our law at the moment of exit would be an affront to Parliamentary democracy, a practical near impossibility for the legal machine to digest and a wrecking ball on stable functioning of the economy.

    May's plan is the sensible way.

    It has the added advantage of giving us a bit of leverage should the Europeans prove tricky about negotiating a reasonable settlement. It shows that constitutionally the ball is in our court, and we may fire the gun on actual Brexit as and when we please.
    Is this the "tim"? If so, welcome back.
    Being nice about a Conservative politician? This can't be the 'tim' of old.
    Given what's happened to Labour I expect that Tim is now a fully paid up member of the Tory party.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,601

    Bitterness in remainers going off the scale tonight. Wherefore that glorious May day in 1997 now.....

    Not really, I am quite happy that all our European laws are going to be enshrined in British law. It means that the nature of Brexit will be decided by Parliament as a whole rather than the PM.
    Exactly. It was always predictable. The issue, if there is one, is why it took the government three months to work it out.
This discussion has been closed.