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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON might have enjoyed double digit leads in the polls but

SystemSystem Posts: 11,711
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON might have enjoyed double digit leads in the polls but has had a terribe month in local by-elections

Liberal Democrats GAIN Four Lanes on Cornwall from United Kingdom Independence Party

Read the full story here


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    LibDems - spinning here!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    Second!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    Tories... winning where it counts? :D
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    Heading to the dockside... European golf team.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .
  • Options
    FPT



    Edit: snipped for space

    Silly little mortgage guarantee schemes of the Osborne type aren't going to cut it: the only solution is the building of a very large number of new houses, which is going to mean cutting chunks out of the green belt and letting developers concrete them - with the caveats that building regs need to be tightened to end the scourge of rabbit hutch new builds, and there need to be proper plans put in place at the outset for transport, public services and so on, in the same way as the garden cities and new towns were carefully managed.

    Yes, very good.
    Not only are home ownership rates falling, we have the some of the smallest new build houses in Europe I think - even comparably dense countries like the Netherlands build bigger than us. And London remains extremely overvalued (see latest UBS figures).

    Putting aside demand-side issues (low interest rates, and foreign investors using UK property as an asset class) the problem seems to be a combination of
    1. A strict but unpredictable planning system that basically that turns housing development into a oligopoly
    2. Restrictions imposed by the greenbelt
    3. A collapse in government or third sector housing development since the 80s.

    Although we cannot or should not --- because we are so densely populated, and because the English countryside is one of the great treasures of Europe -- develop willy nilly -- a lot of the so called green belt is actually marginal wasteland. Enlarging London to the M25 makes a lot of sense.

    Also, if you look at a map, most of the area on both sides of the Thames east to Southend to Sea is edgelands. We could build a whole new London out there if we wanted.
    If something isnt done soon the young will start clearing off. South Africa is modernising and stabilising and a population of less than 50 million for an area the size of western Europe.

    Zimbabwe is bigger than Germany with less than 10 million and Comrade Bob wont be with us much longer.

    Plenty of other places much cheaper than UK that dont speak inglese too.

    I can see some of my kids ending up in South Africa if the alternative is eyewatering debt for a miniscule flat.

    Brexit gives me some hope that the property market will be upended - for their sake - as does the German bank implosion.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.
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    Heading to the dockside... European golf team.

    We also played all our experienced players this morning, only 2 debutants... 4 debutants to still start and with us 4-0 down it looks like

    Celtic vs Barca time I fear
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,051

    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .

    I think that post must rank as "stating the bleeding obvious" best ever.

    The problem with backing Europe to win the Ryder Cup is that if they lose, you lose your money.

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    That's how it starts.
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    Good evening, everyone.

    Two links, a pre-qualifying ramble about Malaysia and a short-lived poll (runs out in 18 hours):
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/malaysia-pre-qualifying.html

    https://twitter.com/MorrisF1/status/781845030336094208

    Any replies to the poll would be most helpful.

    On-topic: a missed opportunity for a "Lib Dems are Winning Here" headline, surely?
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    tyson said:

    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .

    I think that post must rank as "stating the bleeding obvious" best ever.

    The problem with backing Europe to win the Ryder Cup is that if they lose, you lose your money.

    was not if but by how much ...
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    Mr. Scrapheap, Celtic Vs Barca?

    Sound like a replay of the 3rd century BC contest.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    I wouldn't like to be David Willet's brother at this moment in time. Just think those two years of preparation, all that planning, strategy, commentary and talking up our chances......and the poor guy will get scapegoated because it looks like we are in for a drubbing.
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    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    Well, arguably Tories are more likely to be retired and have the money. But then again, could be a sign that Lab's new members are all clicktivists and not active members.
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    tyson said:

    I wouldn't like to be David Willet's brother at this moment in time. Just think those two years of preparation, all that planning, strategy, commentary and talking up our chances......and the poor guy will get scapegoated because it looks like we are in for a drubbing.

    Him and Arnie for differing reasons... I don't think we'll make double figure
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    FPT-Something strange happening in Georgia voter file with thousands of young voters.


    I estimate ~124,000 people age 24-26 are missing from the GA voter file. Here is a comparison of GA & NC voter reg freq by year of birth

    https://twitter.com/electproject

    Will affect Democrats much more.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    They managed to lose 6 out of the 14 seats they were defending despite being well ahead in national polling .
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    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    12,000? OMG. Anyone know how that compares to previous conferences?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    nunu said:

    FPT-Something strange happening in Georgia voter file with thousands of young voters.


    I estimate ~124,000 people age 24-26 are missing from the GA voter file. Here is a comparison of GA & NC voter reg freq by year of birth

    https://twitter.com/electproject

    Will affect Democrats much more.

    Of little consequence in the election though. If Clinton is even competitive in GA, she's won already.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    Well, arguably Tories are more likely to be retired and have the money. But then again, could be a sign that Lab's new members are all clicktivists and not active members.

    Probably worried that the Red Tories would trigger them.
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    This little nugget passed me by, but according to Rentoul:

    "Glenis Willmott, a non-Corbyn leader of the Labour Group in the European Parliament, [is] chair of the NEC for the next year."

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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FPT:
    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
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    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    For the Lib Dems to get back to their peak of 5,000+ council seats they need to gain 3,000. So far this year they have gained under 100. 100 seats per year = 30 years for the LDs to get back to where they once were. It is a small start.
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    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Meanwhile someone who actually is fit to be POTUS is in lead by 6 in NV.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    12,000? OMG. Anyone know how that compares to previous conferences?
    So many Tory scum in one place.......
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    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    For the Lib Dems to get back to their peak of 5,000+ council seats they need to gain 3,000. So far this year they have gained under 100. 100 seats per year = 30 years for the LDs to get back to where they once were. It is a small start.
    Well, someone (Paddy?) did say recently it might take a generation.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    Hunter gatherer societies also tended to be much more violent than modern societies.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    On topic, much of it is down to the Conservatives coming from a very high base, and the Lib Dems from a very low base, in terms of the number of council seats that each party holds.
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    Sean_F said:

    On topic, much of it is down to the Conservatives coming from a very high base, and the Lib Dems from a very low base, in terms of the number of council seats that each party holds.

    And without the human shield of the Lib Dems in coalition, have the Cons re-toxed themselves?

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    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
    I think the really creepy part is the preceding comment..... "at 12 I wasn't interested"...I mean seriously.

    Why the hell was this kind of stuff not brought up in the primaries?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    tyson said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
    I think the really creepy part is the preceding comment..... "at 12 I wasn't interested"...I mean seriously.

    Why the hell was this kind of stuff not brought up in the primaries?
    You don't think the creepiest part is watching the sex tape of a person who is the daughter of good friends that he has known since she was 12?
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    That Joe Biden clip linked to by Nunu on the previous thread should do for Trump. But it won't of course.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .

    To quote our resident bestselling thriller writer:

    HAHAHAHAHA!
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    @TheScreamingEagles hope you followed my advice and bet on the US!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tyson said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
    I think the really creepy part is the preceding comment..... "at 12 I wasn't interested"...I mean seriously.

    Why the hell was this kind of stuff not brought up in the primaries?
    If you really want to need some mindbleach have a look at this photo:

    http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/279091/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-photo-gross/
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    How many seats were unchanged?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .

    Are you serious?
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    RobD said:

    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    12,000? OMG. Anyone know how that compares to previous conferences?
    So many Tory scum in one place.......
    What are the odds on a minister doing a Peter Lilley style speech and retoxifying the Tories?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    Hunter gatherer societies also tended to be much more violent than modern societies.
    I think it is not all survival bias and it is certainly not a noble savage approach, but an evidence-based one. If you look at tribal people who fought/fight in Western wars, their ability to handle PTSD is far greater than their modern counterparts. The more 'advanced' a society is, the more depression and susceptibility to PTSD.

    Sure, tribal life was more brutal. And it is that focussing of the tribal efforts onto surviving (including unthinking violence towards outsiders) that gave purpose, a sense of belonging and the egalitarianism within the group that wards off depression.

    But, as I said, the comment was not meant entirely seriously. That said, we are very poor at admitting the systemic failings of Western, materialistic civilization and how grossly unadapted humans evolved for hunter-gathering are for this lifestyle.
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,045
    RobD said:

    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    12,000? OMG. Anyone know how that compares to previous conferences?
    So many Tory scum in one place.......
    Indeed - and I thought this place was bad!
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,051

    tyson said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
    I think the really creepy part is the preceding comment..... "at 12 I wasn't interested"...I mean seriously.

    Why the hell was this kind of stuff not brought up in the primaries?
    If you really want to need some mindbleach have a look at this photo:

    http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/279091/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-photo-gross/
    Jesus Foxinsoxuk. It's worse than terrible....I haven't got a word to describe that. I think we need to invent one.
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    AndyJS said:

    I note Ladbrokes have cut the odds on Lib Dems finishing 2nd in Witney again today to 4/7 . The danger is that it is a losing bet if they win .

    Are you serious?
    Best to go with William Hill which has a market on who will win without the Tories.
  • Options

    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    For the Lib Dems to get back to their peak of 5,000+ council seats they need to gain 3,000. So far this year they have gained under 100. 100 seats per year = 30 years for the LDs to get back to where they once were. It is a small start.
    Well, someone (Paddy?) did say recently it might take a generation.
    I don't recognise that 5k figure for total of LD councillors at peak. Source?

  • Options

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    The above link shows Japan The least depressed is Japan, with a diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent."

    And yet Japan is 17th highest in suicide rates in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29

    So either suicide is not related to depression .. or the study is flawed..
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Andrew Pierce ‏@toryboypierce 25m25 minutes ago
    A record 12,000 people will be at Tory conference for Mrs May's first as leader about 3 times the number at Labour

    12,000? OMG. Anyone know how that compares to previous conferences?
    The blurb for last year's conference placed the number of attendees at ... 12,000.

    http://cityco.com/news/2015/sep/17/conservative-party-conference-2015/
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    How did this man make it through the primary?

    https://twitter.com/ezlusztig/status/781887557311172608

    Don't people say people have beautiful children all the time?
    Yes, but context is king.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    Hunter gatherer societies also tended to be much more violent than modern societies.
    A classic for #WorldVegetarianDay https://t.co/pNozPgkTxG
  • Options
    Who said this?

    "And I will go on criticising Socialism, and opposing Socialism because it is bad for Britain – and Britain and Socialism are not the same thing. (...) It’s the Labour Government that have brought us record peace-time taxation. They’ve got the usual Socialist disease – they’ve run out of other people’s money."
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MTimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at
    Hunter gatherer societies also tended to be much more violent than modern societies.
    I think it is not all survival bias and it is certainly not a noble savage approach, but an evidence-based one. If you look at tribal people who fought/fight in Western wars, their ability to handle PTSD is far greater than their modern counterparts. The more 'advanced' a society is, the more depression and susceptibility to PTSD.

    Sure, tribal life was more brutal. And it is that focussing of the tribal efforts onto surviving (including unthinking violence towards outsiders) that gave purpose, a sense of belonging and the egalitarianism within the group that wards off depression.

    But, as I said, the comment was not meant entirely seriously. That said, we are very poor at admitting the systemic failings of Western, materialistic civilization and how grossly unadapted humans evolved for hunter-gathering are for this lifestyle.
    I think the evidence is dubious. Japan has some of the lowest recorded rates of depression in the world for example.

    It is recognised that societies with internal conflict and a high Gini coefficient do have higher rates of mental illness. Hunter gatherers do have less internal societal conflict (though often a lot of external threat) and low rates of social inequality.

    It is probably true that free market capitalism increases the rate of mental illness, as does migration whether internal or external.

    There are also difficulties in establishing diagnoses for mental illness in many indigenous societies, as there is no gold standard test equivalent to testing for anaemia for example. Mental illnesses manifest differently in different cultures, and the social stigma varies tremendously.

    For example British people often seek out medical labels such as Aspergers or addiction, while in other countries these are to be advoided because of the stigma attached, and people prefer to just be seen as individuals rather than labels.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    The above link shows Japan The least depressed is Japan, with a diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent."

    And yet Japan is 17th highest in suicide rates in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29

    So either suicide is not related to depression .. or the study is flawed..
    Or they fail to diagnose.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    For the Lib Dems to get back to their peak of 5,000+ council seats they need to gain 3,000. So far this year they have gained under 100. 100 seats per year = 30 years for the LDs to get back to where they once were. It is a small start.
    Well, someone (Paddy?) did say recently it might take a generation.
    I don't recognise that 5k figure for total of LD councillors at peak. Source?

    Wiki hints at a high water of around 4200 in 2008 but there's no specific number.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats#Local_elections
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at
    Hunter gatherer societies also tended to be much more violent than modern societies.
    I think it is not all survival bias and it is certainly not a noble savage approach, but an evidence-based one. If you look at tribal people who fought/fight in Western wars, their ability to handle PTSD is far greater than their modern counterparts. The more 'advanced' a society is, the more depression and susceptibility to PTSD.

    Sure, tribal life was more brutal. And it is that focussing of the tribal efforts onto surviving (including unthinking violence towards outsiders) that gave purpose, a sense of belonging and the egalitarianism within the group that wards off depression.

    But, as I said, the comment was not meant entirely seriously. That said, we are very poor at admitting the systemic failings of Western, materialistic civilization and how grossly unadapted humans evolved for hunter-gathering are for this lifestyle.
    I think the evidence is dubious. Japan has some of the lowest recorded rates of depression in the world for example.

    It is recognised that societies with internal conflict and a high Gini coefficient do have higher rates of mental illness. Hunter gatherers do have less internal societal conflict (though often a lot of external threat) and low rates of social inequality.

    It is probably true that free market capitalism increases the rate of mental illness, as does migration whether internal or external.

    There are also difficulties in establishing diagnoses for mental illness in many indigenous societies, as there is no gold standard test equivalent to testing for anaemia for example. Mental illnesses manifest differently in different cultures, and the social stigma varies tremendously.

    For example British people often seek out medical labels such as Aspergers or addiction, while in other countries these are to be advoided because of the stigma attached, and people prefer to just be seen as individuals rather than labels.
    I'll accept that comparable evidence is hard to come by. But I remain convinced that Western materialism contributes mightily.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    I would assume that the Tories are going to start losing a lot of council seats.

    The questions for the LD and Labour is how they use that to build a platform for other elections.
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    Who said this?

    "And I will go on criticising Socialism, and opposing Socialism because it is bad for Britain – and Britain and Socialism are not the same thing. (...) It’s the Labour Government that have brought us record peace-time taxation. They’ve got the usual Socialist disease – they’ve run out of other people’s money."

    Ted Heath? :)
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    The above link shows Japan The least depressed is Japan, with a diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent."

    And yet Japan is 17th highest in suicide rates in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29

    So either suicide is not related to depression .. or the study is flawed..
    Depression is typically diagnosed by questionnaires like the Beck's Depression Inventory, and because of cultural constraints as to what you are prepared to say about yourself I think they are of no value in comparing one nation with another. That WaPo map is about the state of the psychiatric art in each country, not about true depression rates.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Alistair said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    The above link shows Japan The least depressed is Japan, with a diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent."

    And yet Japan is 17th highest in suicide rates in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29

    So either suicide is not related to depression .. or the study is flawed..
    Or they fail to diagnose.
    And failure to diagnose in other societies such as hunter gatherers!

    In Japan I think suicide is less socially stigmatised than it is in Christian cultures, so it is very possible to have a high suicide rate there of people who are not mentally ill.

    The Bushido code does mandate suicide for a variety of offences for example.

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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,008
    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?
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    Mr. Glenn, close.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Barnesian said:

    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?

    People are happy to vote LD locally, but are not nationally. (Or at least are yet to re-engage with the LDs as a national political force)
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    Mr. Glenn, close.

    As opposed to Mr Glenn Close. ;)
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Sad that I am, I am re-watching the BBC referendum night. I am absolutely loving the biased lefty loveys looking down their noses at 'those on council estates', 'the working classses' 'those who blame Europe when thy shouldn't': And Salmond and Cable whimpering. Superb
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Ishmael_X said:

    FPT:

    MTimT said:

    Patrick said:



    Hobbes was right. We need civilising because our default state is primal and makes our lives nasty, brutish and short. Civilising requires a modicum of ability to see things from someone else's perspective. 'Isms' and religions and despots find this quite hard and so find it all too easy to revert to our uncivilised natural state.

    But the evidence is that tribal peoples living those short brutish lives close to nature have virtually no mental health or depression issues, a construct of our civilization.

    Read an interesting stat - the Bushmen of the Kalahari needed work only 12 hours a week to survive. Where, precisely, has our industrialization got us? (No need to answer. It is only a semi-serious rhetorical question)
    It is to a large extent the myth of the noble savage. Actually if you look at the prevalence of depression the map looks like this:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?0p19G=c

    Africa and the Middle East actually have quite high rates, and East Asian countries some of the lowest, despite their famous work ethic.

    Hunter Gatherers may well have lower rates of mental illness, but there are confounding factors. In particular mental and physical health are correlated, so people with disabling lung or rheumatic conditions are often anxious or depressed. As people with significant chronic health issues die pretty quickly in hunter-gatherer societies, they do not present with depression. It is a survival bias.
    The above link shows Japan The least depressed is Japan, with a diagnosed rate of less than 2.5 percent."

    And yet Japan is 17th highest in suicide rates in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29

    So either suicide is not related to depression .. or the study is flawed..
    Depression is typically diagnosed by questionnaires like the Beck's Depression Inventory, and because of cultural constraints as to what you are prepared to say about yourself I think they are of no value in comparing one nation with another. That WaPo map is about the state of the psychiatric art in each country, not about true depression rates.
    To an extent that is covered in the article. Iraq is anomolously low in MENA and Ukraine in the former USSR for example.
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    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.
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    Barnesian - the LDs get very little national media coverage at the moment. Wait and see what happens as Witney hots up.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    RobD said:

    nunu said:

    FPT-Something strange happening in Georgia voter file with thousands of young voters.


    I estimate ~124,000 people age 24-26 are missing from the GA voter file. Here is a comparison of GA & NC voter reg freq by year of birth

    https://twitter.com/electproject

    Will affect Democrats much more.

    Of little consequence in the election though. If Clinton is even competitive in GA, she's won already.
    really not the point. And it could happen anywhere else too.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    It's now Friday and here is my average daily tracking poll post debate results.

    Day before the debate:

    Hillary 46.5
    Trump 43

    3 days after the Debate:

    Hillary 46.5
    Trump 43

    The debate was a wash, but since Hillary was already leading before the debate Trump was the one who needed a win.

    I see that Hillary's recovery which occured in the days leading up to the debate is being due to 3rd party voters panicking about Trump and rushing towards Hillary to stop him, the Green party vote seems to have collapsed towards zero in the past 3 weeks.

    But Trump attacing Miss Universe seems to hurt him in Nevada quite a bit.
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    wasdwasd Posts: 276

    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.

    Hopefully next year BBC parliament will rebroadcast both '87 and '97.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    nunu said:

    RobD said:

    nunu said:

    FPT-Something strange happening in Georgia voter file with thousands of young voters.


    I estimate ~124,000 people age 24-26 are missing from the GA voter file. Here is a comparison of GA & NC voter reg freq by year of birth

    https://twitter.com/electproject

    Will affect Democrats much more.

    Of little consequence in the election though. If Clinton is even competitive in GA, she's won already.
    really not the point. And it could happen anywhere else too.
    I'm guessing whoever made the plot has made similar ones for all states to look for it elsewhere. The two other states they plotted look 'normal'.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    Dixie said:

    Sad that I am, I am re-watching the BBC referendum night. I am absolutely loving the biased lefty loveys looking down their noses at 'those on council estates', 'the working classses' 'those who blame Europe when thy shouldn't': And Salmond and Cable whimpering. Superb

    It's not sad to watch election re-runs, is it @scrapheap_as_was? :D
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Barnesian said:

    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?

    Many recent local by-elections have been held in places with statistically very high lead content in the water supply.
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    image

    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.

    It is absolutely stunning how monumentally Cameron screwed it up.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.

    The way Cameron triumphed led to his own downfall, shakespearian but true.

    Cameron won on the back of scaring people into voting Tory about immigration, europe and scottish nationalists, winning a victory on the back of the Midlands voting more Tory than the South.

    He did his best to depress economically and socially non-pensioners and Labour areas, and just after the 2015 GE to try to disenfranchise them.

    He lost the referendum and got ousted for all the reasons he won in 2015.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    edited September 2016



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited September 2016
    Barnesian said:

    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?

    Huge swings in low turnout elections. It can be a sign of activist motivation, or coalescing pro-EU protest votes etc rather than reflective of enthusiasm for voting Lib Dem come a GE.

    Still, their recent run is quite impressive.
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    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.

    He's not an MP today is he?
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    jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Do many people even know who their local councilors are, or even care?
    I almost never vote in local council elections, and having run a business locally, I have little respect for them, especially re the planners, when the officers recommend approval, and the committee refuse.
    I eventually employed 100+ people, grown from zero over 20 years, could have been so many more but for constant rejections by the planners.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    Mr. Dixie, must admit, I rewatched parts of the 2015 election result.

    Scarcely a year ago, Cameron stood triumphant. Next month he won't even be an MP.

    He's not an MP today is he?
    That's correct. He was expelled from Parliament because he took up a paid office of the crown. ;)
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    image

    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    Because if we leave that area that represents 7% of the world's population then we can sign our own trade deal not only with what's left behind of that 7% but we can also sign trade deals with the remaining 93% that we can't at the moment within the EU.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Barnesian said:

    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?

    Huge swings in low turnout elections. It can be a sign of activist motivation, or coalescing pro-EU protest votes etc rather than reflective of enthusiasm for voting Lib Dem come a GE.

    Still, it is quite impressive.
    The increase of the LD council by-election victories started before the referendum.

    I think people are more willing to ignore the LD legacy in a national government when voting for local elections.

    LD where crap in the Coalition, but in local councils probably less crap.
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    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
  • Options

    image

    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    Because if we leave that area that represents 7% of the world's population then we can sign our own trade deal not only with what's left behind of that 7% but we can also sign trade deals with the remaining 93% that we can't at the moment within the EU.
    To which I can only answer with Robert's brilliant question - which of these prospective free-trade-loving countries have free trade deals with each other if they're so keen on the idea?
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    True, I have no problem negotiating an FTA with the remains of the EU after we leave.
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
    But being in the EU means we can't negotiate any other free trade agreements.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    There is a world outside Europe, and the EU is abysmal at making trade deals with it. We have a bright future.
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    Speedy said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    True, I have no problem negotiating an FTA with the remains of the EU after we leave.
    Are you volunteering? I think I'd prefer you to do it instead of Liam Fox.
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
    But being in the EU means we can't negotiate any other free trade agreements.
    We, as the collective EU, can. Indeed we used to have a very influential British politician doing just that. You may have heard of him. His name was Peter Mandelson.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    image

    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    A Trump supporter complaining about us leaving a free trade agreement........what a time to be alive.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
    But being in the EU means we can't negotiate any other free trade agreements.
    We, as the collective EU, can. Indeed we used to have a very influential British politician doing just that. You may have heard of him. His name was Peter Mandelson.
    There is an alternative of course - author of a blockbuster best-seller on negotiations, quoted almost daily by the world's press on international trade agreements, emptyish diary from early November onwards...
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    The Uk has around 20,000 councillors, elected, mostly, on a 4 year cycle, so around 5,000 every May. Compared to that byelection numbers are tiny, less than 400 a year & that is the context in which gaining 8 seats in a Month is big news. If The Libdems were to repeat that level of support next May they would make hundreds of gains.
    On why "The Polls" dont show any change, I think most voters only think about Politics when theres an Election on or something big happens. The Referendum was Big but not Party based so the Polls are where they were in May 2015, more or less. What it would take to shift them is debatable, a surprise in Witney perhaps ?
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    MTimT said:

    I can't somehow get excited about losing 5 council seats. It is a measure of how low they've fallen that LibDems can.

    For the Lib Dems to get back to their peak of 5,000+ council seats they need to gain 3,000. So far this year they have gained under 100. 100 seats per year = 30 years for the LDs to get back to where they once were. It is a small start.
    Well, someone (Paddy?) did say recently it might take a generation.
    I don't recognise that 5k figure for total of LD councillors at peak. Source?

    The data for 1996 was 5,078 LD councillors across the UK. The original source was a University website political data base with data starting in 1973. In 1996 it also listed Con =4,276 and Lab = 10,929.
    Prior years for LDs =
    1992 3,728
    1993 4,123
    1994 4,551
    1995 4,942
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,810
    edited September 2016
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
    But being in the EU means we can't negotiate any other free trade agreements.
    Being able to negotiate trade deals that are specific to us is a VERY different from actually benefiting from free trade. Leaving the Single Market, which uniquely gives us free trade in services and makes up half our exports will lead to a sharp drop in our ACTUAL free trade. It won't be in any way be made up for by a hypothetical FTA negotiated in ten years time by the here-today-gone-tomorrow Liam Fox that substitutes for the EU FTA that we will have said goodbye to years earlier, also thanks to Dr Fox
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    We're leaving, the question is what do we do from here. Fox is saying free trade with as many countries as possible should be a priority.
    Let's just leave him in post for a few years until he realises that the implication of that priority is that we should cancel Brexit.
    Or just negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU, like other countries are doing.
    Or just recognise that the one we've already got is pretty good and use our collective energies to do something more productive.
    Its a hell of an expensive free trade area though.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    GeoffM said:

    Barnesian said:

    It is very hard to square the huge swing to the LibDems in local by elections with their static score of about 8% in the national opinion polls. Real polls versus opinion polls. Theories anyone?

    Many recent local by-elections have been held in places with statistically very high lead content in the water supply.
    Are you sure about that ?
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    image

    So let's leave the largest, deepest free trade agreement in the world...

    Because if we leave that area that represents 7% of the world's population then we can sign our own trade deal not only with what's left behind of that 7% but we can also sign trade deals with the remaining 93% that we can't at the moment within the EU.
    We can, but will we? I'd have more faith if it were not being led by someone whose experience is charitably described as, narrow.
This discussion has been closed.