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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-LD leader, Paddy Ashdown launches move to have one non-C

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  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited September 2016
    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    Indeed, many Tories prefer May to Cameron, Cameron's opposition to grammars in 2007 cost him in the polls and was one of his worst moments as leader, May's promise of new ones will help get the party faithful behind her from the off. There is still more to be done on the detail clearly but the general direction is a positive one for most Tory voters and members
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Grammar Schools and Leaving in the same year? I couldn't ask for much more (at least not that can be legislated for!)
    Mortimer, you and I both support grammar schools and both attended one, do you not feel that these half baked plans will end up doing more harm than good? In the abstract I'd love to see more grammar schools and an education system which strives for excellence of all kinds including academic, but these proposals do nothing for the 65% of kids who won't be able to attend grammar school. In fact it may be counterproductive as kids who don't make it are left with fewer life chances and opportunities for success. I'm very disappointed that there aren't wider reforms.
    I don't think it is very much more complicated than that.

    As I mentioned earlier, a wide-ranging education reform package of which Grammar schools were but one element, together with technical colleges, directed resources to less well performing schools, etc, is all well and good, if yet another tinkering with it all.

    But just grammar schools on their own? Seems inept and more harmful than helpful.

    Plus, with enough resources and focus on less well performing schools, together with Academies and Free Schools you have to ask if the Grammars would become redundant.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    We have options from about 8 hands through 17.2 hands, although I don't think a miniature Scicilian donkey is quite Mr Meeks' style.
  • Options
    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
    LOL. Love to see you on a competition horse, regardless of discipline.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    The tribes which make up British voters, 26% are 'Common Sense', 24% 'Our Britain', 11% Progressives, 8% 'Community', 7% 'Free Liberals', 7% Swing voters, 6% 'New Britain' and 5% 'Democratic Socialists'
    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/09/emran-mian-so-much-for-the-progressive-majority-most-british-voters-sit-broadly-on-the-right.html

    I read (well scanned, at any rate) that Opinium survey. If it's anywhere close to reality (and IMHO it looks pretty plausible, as a reflection of England at least) then Labour are in an awful hole. Something close to two thirds of the electorate appears to consist of various flavours of Tory (blue, yellow and libertarian) plus the Ukip coalition of British and English nationalists, of both right and left-leaning persuasion. Very few of these people are likely to back Corbyn Labour because it offends against them on one or more fundamental levels: its anti-patriotism, sympathy towards open borders, disdain for free market capitalism and obsession with minority identity politics are all anathema. And the floating voters won't be much impressed by the general sense of civil war and incompetent generalship that pervades Labour, either.

    Labour still has a lot of residual strengths - enthusiastic backing from a lot of middle-class lefties and public sector workers, as well as the hard left and most of the unions, plus a substantial tribal loyalty vote and the more-or-less captive support of poorer BAME voters - but, if things remain as they are, I can easily see them only polling 25% at the next GE.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Mortimer said:

    The NHS reforms reminded me that reforms don't happen of work if they're too radical. Step by step, Max old son.

    My view is that grammars are a brand. They're about aspiration. They're about people like you and me taken out of what might have been a hum drum existence into opportunity and doing something we enjoy that is also lucrative. It is about encouraging achievement, discipline and a sense of pride in our next generations.

    Yes, and that is why I support them. But as I said, what does it mean for the 65% who are unable to attend grammar schools? I'd rather the PM concentrate on them first and then come to grammar schools. Achievement is not only academic, it can be in a variety of fields, my best friend is an electrician and his crew is quickly getting a reputation in the City for doing the best quality work, they are in the Cheesegrater at the moment. That excellence wasn't recognised at school and he ended up having to change careers late in his life wasting 10 years of his career doing something else. In a better school system he would have gone into an apprenticeship system and become an electrician at 16-18.

    I'd like to see a UK education system that celebrates all kinds of achievement and we have a world class higher education system which does academic excellence very well. We don't have secondary schools which are focused on non-academic achievement and I think it's much more important to fix that for the 65% of kids who aren't academic than expand grammar schools for the 35% who are, 15% really given that 20% already go to private school or grammar school.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
    LOL. Love to see you on a competition horse, regardless of discipline.
    I've only ever been on past it mounts, because I am a pretty ropey rider, but the respect it makes you feel for both decent riders and the whole of horse-kind is a humbling experience that all should experience.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    I don't know how anyone can look at American politics and say Britain is so divided for having a referendum?
  • Options
    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    Going back to the earlier topic of conversation Corbyn winning PMQ's today isn't a bad thing long term, keeping an unelectable Corbyn in place isn't a bad idea from a Conservative perspective. Dave did a much better job doing it though on the evidence so far.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    538 has just tipped Florida from D --> R. Doesn't mean anything in real terms but symbolically significant . http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/#plus
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    Leeds' former partner at his firm, William Weld, was GOP Governor of Massachusetts and Johnson's Libertarian ticket VP.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,063
    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited September 2016

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    I suggested earlier that the election should be delayed six months, and the Democrats and Republicans told to go away and think again. We can end up with two clean skins with policies, say maybe Elizabeth Warren and Paul Ryan, and the US can have a civilised debate about its future direction - rather than two narcissists throwing bricks at each other for another seven weeks.

    I wonder if any republicans might propose an amendment to the constitution to have "Re-Open Nominations" on the Presidential ballot papers in future? If RON wins then we get another election six months later.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
    Send it by rocket into the Sun. Anyway if CO2 capture works (and we'll have to store the CO2 forever) then we can just put the radioactive waste in the same storage facility.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    The NHS reforms reminded me that reforms don't happen of work if they're too radical. Step by step, Max old son.

    My view is that grammars are a brand. They're about aspiration. They're about people like you and me taken out of what might have been a hum drum existence into opportunity and doing something we enjoy that is also lucrative. It is about encouraging achievement, discipline and a sense of pride in our next generations.

    Yes, and that is why I support them. But as I said, what does it mean for the 65% who are unable to attend grammar schools? I'd rather the PM concentrate on them first and then come to grammar schools. Achievement is not only academic, it can be in a variety of fields, my best friend is an electrician and his crew is quickly getting a reputation in the City for doing the best quality work, they are in the Cheesegrater at the moment. That excellence wasn't recognised at school and he ended up having to change careers late in his life wasting 10 years of his career doing something else. In a better school system he would have gone into an apprenticeship system and become an electrician at 16-18.

    I'd like to see a UK education system that celebrates all kinds of achievement and we have a world class higher education system which does academic excellence very well. We don't have secondary schools which are focused on non-academic achievement and I think it's much more important to fix that for the 65% of kids who aren't academic than expand grammar schools for the 35% who are, 15% really given that 20% already go to private school or grammar school.
    Oh I don't disagree with you. We've fetished-ised universities for far too long and hence academic achievement too. I just suspect that allowing grammars will create an irresistible demand for non academic excellence too. All Comps seem to do is encourage medocrity.

    Max, I'd be interested to know if any of your school pals became teachers. Those of mine who did were not exactly the most inspiring people...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Grammar Schools and Leaving in the same year? I couldn't ask for much more (at least not that can be legislated for!)
    Mortimer, you and I both support grammar schools and both attended one, do you not feel that these half baked plans will end up doing more harm than good? In the abstract I'd love to see more grammar schools and an education system which strives for excellence of all kinds including academic, but these proposals do nothing for the 65% of kids who won't be able to attend grammar school. In fact it may be counterproductive as kids who don't make it are left with fewer life chances and opportunities for success. I'm very disappointed that there aren't wider reforms.
    I don't think it is very much more complicated than that.

    As I mentioned earlier, a wide-ranging education reform package of which Grammar schools were but one element, together with technical colleges, directed resources to less well performing schools, etc, is all well and good, if yet another tinkering with it all.

    But just grammar schools on their own? Seems inept and more harmful than helpful.

    Plus, with enough resources and focus on less well performing schools, together with Academies and Free Schools you have to ask if the Grammars would become redundant.
    Academies and free schools and faith schools will all continue alongside grammar schools, there may be a pick up again of Lord Baker's plans for technical schools too
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    The NHS reforms reminded me that reforms don't happen of work if they're too radical. Step by step, Max old son.

    My view is that grammars are a brand. They're about aspiration. They're about people like you and me taken out of what might have been a hum drum existence into opportunity and doing something we enjoy that is also lucrative. It is about encouraging achievement, discipline and a sense of pride in our next generations.

    Yes, and that is why I support them. But as I said, what does it mean for the 65% who are unable to attend grammar schools? I'd rather the PM concentrate on them first and then come to grammar schools. Achievement is not only academic, it can be in a variety of fields, my best friend is an electrician and his crew is quickly getting a reputation in the City for doing the best quality work, they are in the Cheesegrater at the moment. That excellence wasn't recognised at school and he ended up having to change careers late in his life wasting 10 years of his career doing something else. In a better school system he would have gone into an apprenticeship system and become an electrician at 16-18.

    I'd like to see a UK education system that celebrates all kinds of achievement and we have a world class higher education system which does academic excellence very well. We don't have secondary schools which are focused on non-academic achievement and I think it's much more important to fix that for the 65% of kids who aren't academic than expand grammar schools for the 35% who are, 15% really given that 20% already go to private school or grammar school.
    +1
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131

    HYUFD said:

    The tribes which make up British voters, 26% are 'Common Sense', 24% 'Our Britain', 11% Progressives, 8% 'Community', 7% 'Free Liberals', 7% Swing voters, 6% 'New Britain' and 5% 'Democratic Socialists'
    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/09/emran-mian-so-much-for-the-progressive-majority-most-british-voters-sit-broadly-on-the-right.html

    I read (well scanned, at any rate) that Opinium survey. If it's anywhere close to reality (and IMHO it looks pretty plausible, as a reflection of England at least) then Labour are in an awful hole. Something close to two thirds of the electorate appears to consist of various flavours of Tory (blue, yellow and libertarian) plus the Ukip coalition of British and English nationalists, of both right and left-leaning persuasion. Very few of these people are likely to back Corbyn Labour because it offends against them on one or more fundamental levels: its anti-patriotism, sympathy towards open borders, disdain for free market capitalism and obsession with minority identity politics are all anathema. And the floating voters won't be much impressed by the general sense of civil war and incompetent generalship that pervades Labour, either.

    Labour still has a lot of residual strengths - enthusiastic backing from a lot of middle-class lefties and public sector workers, as well as the hard left and most of the unions, plus a substantial tribal loyalty vote and the more-or-less captive support of poorer BAME voters - but, if things remain as they are, I can easily see them only polling 25% at the next GE.
    Indeed, clearly over 50% of the voters in the UK are now supporters of either the Tories or UKIP
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    weejonnie said:

    538 has just tipped Florida from D --> R. Doesn't mean anything in real terms but symbolically significant . http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/#plus

    I think there is a word for progressing in the polls.

    Ironically, isn't it 'Momentum'?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited September 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    I suggested earlier that the election should be delayed six months, and the Democrats and Republicans told to go away and think again. We can end up with two clean skins with policies, say maybe Elizabeth Warren and Paul Ryan, and the US can have a civilised debate about its future direction - rather than two narcissists throwing bricks at each other for another seven weeks.

    I wonder if any republicans might propose an amendment to the constitution to have "Re-Open Nominations" on the Presidential ballot papers in future? If RON wins then we get another election six months later.
    I think RON would do extremely well at the polls...He would certainly get my vote.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    Sandpit said:

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    I suggested earlier that the election should be delayed six months, and the Democrats and Republicans told to go away and think again. We can end up with two clean skins with policies, say maybe Elizabeth Warren and Paul Ryan, and the US can have a civilised debate about its future direction - rather than two narcissists throwing bricks at each other for another seven weeks.

    I wonder if any republicans might propose an amendment to the constitution to have "Re-Open Nominations" on the Presidential ballot papers in future? If RON wins then we get another election six months later.
    I think RON would do extremely well at the polls...He would certainly get my vote.
    I think RON would win a landslide against the two monkeys currently trying to be president.

    Not sure the framers of the constitution ever envisaged a situation where *both* main parties would pick totally unsuitable candidates in the same year!
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Autocorrect and fat fingered train typing do not do my grammar school education much credit...

    :(
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Has this been mentioned? I guess "it's too soon to say"

    The British jobs market shows no sign of taking a hit from the EU referendum with figures showing unemployment falling again. The employment rate remained at a record high of 74.5 per cent in the quarter to July - including one month after the Brexit vote.
    Some 31.8 million people were in work - up by 174,000 from the previous quarter. A total of 1.63 million people were unemployed - a fall of 39,000 over the quarter and 190,000 down compared with a year ago. The jobless rate was 4.9 per cent

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3788779/Unemployment-falls-Britain-s-jobs-market-shows-no-signs-slowdown-EU-referendum.html#ixzz4KG7qxf2S
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    The NHS reforms reminded me that reforms don't happen of work if they're too radical. Step by step, Max old son.

    My view is that grammars are a brand. They're about aspiration. They're about people like you and me taken out of what might have been a hum drum existence into opportunity and doing something we enjoy that is also lucrative. It is about encouraging achievement, discipline and a sense of pride in our next generations.

    Yes, and that is why I support them. But as I said, what does it mean for the 65% who are unable to attend grammar schools? I'd rather the PM concentrate on them first and then come to grammar schools. Achievement is not only academic, it can be in a variety of fields, my best friend is an electrician and his crew is quickly getting a reputation in the City for doing the best quality work, they are in the Cheesegrater at the moment. That excellence wasn't recognised at school and he ended up having to change careers late in his life wasting 10 years of his career doing something else. In a better school system he would have gone into an apprenticeship system and become an electrician at 16-18.

    I'd like to see a UK education system that celebrates all kinds of achievement and we have a world class higher education system which does academic excellence very well. We don't have secondary schools which are focused on non-academic achievement and I think it's much more important to fix that for the 65% of kids who aren't academic than expand grammar schools for the 35% who are, 15% really given that 20% already go to private school or grammar school.
    Oh I don't disagree with you. We've fetished-ised universities for far too long and hence academic achievement too. I just suspect that allowing grammars will create an irresistible demand for non academic excellence too. All Comps seem to do is encourage medocrity.

    Max, I'd be interested to know if any of your school pals became teachers. Those of mine who did were not exactly the most inspiring people...
    Out of interest, I once searched for my fellow grammar school pupils apart from four who I've kept very loosely in touch with. I couldn't find a single one with an 'online presence'; I assume it means they went into very boring salaried jobs. I'm not sure that even 35% of us are 'academic'; in the early 70s only 5-10% went to univ.

    Changing the subject, R4 (live) has a programme on the legal pitfalls of leaving the EU.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Mortimer said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
    LOL. Love to see you on a competition horse, regardless of discipline.
    I've only ever been on past it mounts, because I am a pretty ropey rider, but the respect it makes you feel for both decent riders and the whole of horse-kind is a humbling experience that all should experience.
    I am in the ropey rider category too - they bought me a 'husband horse', essentially a walking sofa.

    But my daughter's horses ... She does both eventing and dressage to top level. In fact, for all that top dressage looks boring to the uninitiated, it is the dressage horses that are the hottest in my experience. Event horses that gallop over those huge fences have to be more sensible.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Major political donor Jeffrey Leeds told Colin Powell in an email last March that Hillary Clinton 'HATES' President Obama

    Leeds also claimed that the Clintons refer to President Obama as 'that man'

    In another email exchange, Leeds claims that Clinton was so sick she could 'barely climb the podium steps' before giving a speech

    Powell also referred to Donald Trump as a 'racist' and 'national disgrace' in an email

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3789021/Hillary-Clinton-HATES-President-Obama-defeating-2008-election-according-leaked-emails-refers-man.html

    What a clusterf##k

    I suggested earlier that the election should be delayed six months, and the Democrats and Republicans told to go away and think again. We can end up with two clean skins with policies, say maybe Elizabeth Warren and Paul Ryan, and the US can have a civilised debate about its future direction - rather than two narcissists throwing bricks at each other for another seven weeks.

    I wonder if any republicans might propose an amendment to the constitution to have "Re-Open Nominations" on the Presidential ballot papers in future? If RON wins then we get another election six months later.
    I think RON would do extremely well at the polls...He would certainly get my vote.
    I think RON would win a landslide against the two monkeys currently trying to be president.

    Not sure the framers of the constitution ever envisaged a situation where *both* main parties would pick totally unsuitable candidates in the same year!
    TBH I think they are spinning in their graves at the candidates and generally how US politics has gone. Its completely broken.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    weejonnie said:

    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
    Send it by rocket into the Sun. Anyway if CO2 capture works (and we'll have to store the CO2 forever) then we can just put the radioactive waste in the same storage facility.
    Sending a rocket to the sun is very difficult. See https://www.wired.com/2016/07/physics-trying-crash-sun/ and the embedded youtube from Minute Physics.

    It is also unacceptably dangerous because of the risk of rockets exploding on takeoff.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    MTimT said:

    Mortimer said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
    LOL. Love to see you on a competition horse, regardless of discipline.
    I've only ever been on past it mounts, because I am a pretty ropey rider, but the respect it makes you feel for both decent riders and the whole of horse-kind is a humbling experience that all should experience.
    I am in the ropey rider category too - they bought me a 'husband horse', essentially a walking sofa.

    But my daughter's horses ... She does both eventing and dressage to top level. In fact, for all that top dressage looks boring to the uninitiated, it is the dressage horses that are the hottest in my experience. Event horses that gallop over those huge fences have to be more sensible.
    In a sort of diva-esque way? I can well imagine.

    The horses I have ridden are all anything for an easy life. One waa a proper wheezer...
  • Options
    Can someone find Spurs a defence please?
    Spurs 0 - Monaco 2
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited September 2016
    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Can someone find Spurs a defence please?
    Spurs 0 - Monaco 2

    The goalkeeper had eaten something that disagreed with him?
  • Options

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.

  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ishmael_X said:

    weejonnie said:

    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
    Send it by rocket into the Sun. Anyway if CO2 capture works (and we'll have to store the CO2 forever) then we can just put the radioactive waste in the same storage facility.
    Sending a rocket to the sun is very difficult. See https://www.wired.com/2016/07/physics-trying-crash-sun/ and the embedded youtube from Minute Physics.

    It is also unacceptably dangerous because of the risk of rockets exploding on takeoff.
    Fasincating. I had before viewing the video assumed the difficulty to be the solar wind getting stronger than the sun's gravitational effect the closer you got to the sun, not orbits.
  • Options

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.

    More like intercontinental ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads on it....
  • Options
    Ishmael_X said:

    weejonnie said:

    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
    Send it by rocket into the Sun. Anyway if CO2 capture works (and we'll have to store the CO2 forever) then we can just put the radioactive waste in the same storage facility.
    Sending a rocket to the sun is very difficult. See https://www.wired.com/2016/07/physics-trying-crash-sun/ and the embedded youtube from Minute Physics.

    It is also unacceptably dangerous because of the risk of rockets exploding on takeoff.
    Dosent need to go to the sun - just into outer space somewhere.

    Risks on takeoff are an issue. However if you launch them on Romney Marsh when there is a North West wind its not our problem lol

    - and handy for dungeness too
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Neil Kinnock returning party turned out to be the election losing one. I've seen nothing in May's behaviour so far to suggest that she's anything other than a low rent Gordon Brown.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    JonathanD said:

    Dromedary said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    Why might it be that nuclear power stations aren't built in city centres or somewhere else that's surrounded by lots of land on all sides? ".
    They require cooling water so need to be located next to large sources like rivers or the sea.
    Thanks Jonathan, you beat me to it.
    Like Greenwich...
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there any reason to suppose that the Conservatives will put forward a Leaver in Witney? If they put forward an erstwhile Remainer the whole idea would look even less thought through than it looks at present.

    #Meeks4Witney?
    I don't think Witney is ready for me or vice versa. I've never sat on the back of a horse.
    I could sort that one out for you :)
    I've been put on donkeys at the seaside. Same difference really, I expect.
    LOL. Love to see you on a competition horse, regardless of discipline.
    I would expect a LEAVEr to be selected based on the usual split of views amongst the members. However that is providing one is put on the shortlist.
  • Options
    weejonnie said:

    Can someone find Spurs a defence please?
    Spurs 0 - Monaco 2

    The goalkeeper had eaten something that disagreed with him?
    Shared a kebab with the defence?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The tribes which make up British voters, 26% are 'Common Sense', 24% 'Our Britain', 11% Progressives, 8% 'Community', 7% 'Free Liberals', 7% Swing voters, 6% 'New Britain' and 5% 'Democratic Socialists'
    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/09/emran-mian-so-much-for-the-progressive-majority-most-british-voters-sit-broadly-on-the-right.html

    I read (well scanned, at any rate) that Opinium survey. If it's anywhere close to reality (and IMHO it looks pretty plausible, as a reflection of England at least) then Labour are in an awful hole. Something close to two thirds of the electorate appears to consist of various flavours of Tory (blue, yellow and libertarian) plus the Ukip coalition of British and English nationalists, of both right and left-leaning persuasion. Very few of these people are likely to back Corbyn Labour because it offends against them on one or more fundamental levels: its anti-patriotism, sympathy towards open borders, disdain for free market capitalism and obsession with minority identity politics are all anathema. And the floating voters won't be much impressed by the general sense of civil war and incompetent generalship that pervades Labour, either.

    Labour still has a lot of residual strengths - enthusiastic backing from a lot of middle-class lefties and public sector workers, as well as the hard left and most of the unions, plus a substantial tribal loyalty vote and the more-or-less captive support of poorer BAME voters - but, if things remain as they are, I can easily see them only polling 25% at the next GE.
    Indeed, clearly over 50% of the voters in the UK are now supporters of either the Tories or UKIP
    In the last election, Con + Ukip + DUP commanded a majority (just) of all votes cast in the UK.

    In England, Con + Ukip = 55%.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
  • Options
    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.

    If Trump wins I can see loads of young white Democrats marching violently demanding another election and setting fire to buildings and looting stores, as they have no self control.

    No matter who wins, many of the mainstream media are going to find the number of presidential press conferences much reduced.
  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Mortimer said:

    The NHS reforms reminded me that reforms don't happen of work if they're too radical. Step by step, Max old son.

    My view is that grammars are a brand. They're about aspiration. They're about people like you and me taken out of what might have been a hum drum existence into opportunity and doing something we enjoy that is also lucrative. It is about encouraging achievement, discipline and a sense of pride in our next generations.

    Yes, and that is why I support them. But as I said, what does it mean for the 65% who are unable to attend grammar schools? I'd rather the PM concentrate on them first and then come to grammar schools. Achievement is not only academic, it can be in a variety of fields, my best friend is an electrician and his crew is quickly getting a reputation in the City for doing the best quality work, they are in the Cheesegrater at the moment. That excellence wasn't recognised at school and he ended up having to change careers late in his life wasting 10 years of his career doing something else. In a better school system he would have gone into an apprenticeship system and become an electrician at 16-18.

    I'd like to see a UK education system that celebrates all kinds of achievement and we have a world class higher education system which does academic excellence very well. We don't have secondary schools which are focused on non-academic achievement and I think it's much more important to fix that for the 65% of kids who aren't academic than expand grammar schools for the 35% who are, 15% really given that 20% already go to private school or grammar school.
    Oh I don't disagree with you. We've fetished-ised universities for far too long and hence academic achievement too. I just suspect that allowing grammars will create an irresistible demand for non academic excellence too. All Comps seem to do is encourage medocrity.

    Max, I'd be interested to know if any of your school pals became teachers. Those of mine who did were not exactly the most inspiring people...
    ...Changing the subject, R4 (live) has a programme on the legal pitfalls of leaving the EU.
    Presumably BBC R4 will also do a programme on the legal pitfalls of staying in the EU?
    :smile:
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
  • Options
    matt said:

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Neil Kinnock returning party turned out to be the election losing one. I've seen nothing in May's behaviour so far to suggest that she's anything other than a low rent Gordon Brown.
    One thing Theresa May does seem to have in common with Gordon Brown is media advisers who think the new PM is just like the old PM. They've even given her Dave's old joke book for PMQs.
  • Options
    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited September 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    As a man who has Putin as his avatar, I would have thought you would be all behind the love in for Putin ;-)
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Just when Labour were finally having a good day, the auto self-destruct goes off again:
    Earlier today, Jeremy Corbyn's campaign team issued a list of 13 Labour MPs, denouncing them for their "abuse" of the leader and his supporters. The briefing cited Jess Phillips telling Diane Abbott to "fuck off", Tristram Hunt describing Labour as "in the shit", Tom Watson referring to Momentum as "a rabble" and John Woodcock calling a Corbyn PMQs performance a "fucking disaster"...

    But the briefing has sparked divisions on Corbyn's own side. An ally of the Labour leader told me: "This has caused dismay and anger among Jeremy's supporters in Westminster. It is pound shop Malcolm Tucker stuff. On a day when Jeremy united the Labour benches over grammar schools this just gives the Tories an excuse to change the subject and point the disunity finger at Labour. It is the height of incompetence from the leadership campaign media operation."
    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/09/jeremy-corbyn-ally-condemns-list-abusive-labour-mps
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Autocorrect and fat fingered train typing do not do my grammar school education much credit...

    :(

    We were only just starting to use calcs in my 6th form. Polish notation etc.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2

    This Champions League is not so tough is it ;-)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    As a man who has Putin as his avatar, I would have thought you would be all behind the love in for Putin ;-)
    I think I just did that to annoy Lovinputin1983
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I have to say I have similar reservations - although personally I think Putin is not particularly dangerous - but Hillary is ghastly and the imp in me finds the thought of the liberal left having a full on hyperventilating shriek festival is too good to resist.
  • Options

    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2

    This Champions League is not so tough is it ;-)
    Playing a team from Belgium is easier when the best Belgians have emigrated.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    Says the man who uses Putin as his icon.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    As a man who has Putin as his avatar, I would have thought you would be all behind the love in for Putin ;-)
    Snap. Didn't see this before I posted.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    To be impeached doesn't he have to do something in office?

    Trump is a clown and buffoon. He will make America crap again.
  • Options

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    To be impeached doesn't he have to do something in office?

    Trump is a clown and buffoon. He will make America crap again.

    Trump vs Clinton.

    Whoever wins....

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2

    This Champions League is not so tough is it ;-)
    Playing a team from Belgium is easier when the best Belgians have emigrated.
    You can only beat the teams in the group you get drawn against.

    Of course last season we beat loads of teams with Belgians in them...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I have to say I have similar reservations - although personally I think Putin is not particularly dangerous - but Hillary is ghastly and the imp in me finds the thought of the liberal left having a full on hyperventilating shriek festival is too good to resist.
    Tell that to Ukrainians on the Russian border. Putin is highly dangerous, but relatively predictable. A known unknown.
  • Options

    matt said:

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Neil Kinnock returning party turned out to be the election losing one. I've seen nothing in May's behaviour so far to suggest that she's anything other than a low rent Gordon Brown.
    One thing Theresa May does seem to have in common with Gordon Brown is media advisers who think the new PM is just like the old PM. They've even given her Dave's old joke book for PMQs.
    To be fair, Cameron had a massive advantage in that he and Osborne had been prepping Howard for PMQs for years before Cameron fronted PMQs. But the basic mistake goes back to the sudden rush into talking about grammar schools when after the leak they should have just said that yes it is one of many education issues under review and then left it alone.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Rogueywon said:

    One small issue with this, surely? The leader of the Labour Party does not favour a second referendum and nor, so far as I know, does he favour a Parliamentary vote.

    Also worth noting is that Paddy does not speak for the LDs!

    He doesn't but I wouldn't put it past the leader of the lib dems thinks the same way after the vote for leave the EU showed him up.

    Him and Anna Soubry did make me laugh.
  • Options

    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2

    This Champions League is not so tough is it ;-)
    Playing a team from Belgium is easier when the best Belgians have emigrated.
    You can only beat the teams in the group you get drawn against.

    Of course last season we beat loads of teams with Belgians in them...
    Yes. But where do you see Leicester finishing this season?
    I see Spuds in a 3 way fight with Arsenal and Liverpool for the 4th spot.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    matt said:

    Mortimer said:

    It seems today that everyone has decided that Theresa May is a ditherer and not a tactician. Yet when I suggested that on Sunday there was a lot of harrumphing. How swiftly opinions change.

    Not me. I've got my party back.

    And I've looked at the numbers and worked out that in the current climate, annoying metropolitan middle class liberals is not going to harm her electoral prospects either...
    You sound like a Corbynite talking about Blair.
    Neil Kinnock returning party turned out to be the election losing one. I've seen nothing in May's behaviour so far to suggest that she's anything other than a low rent Gordon Brown.
    One thing Theresa May does seem to have in common with Gordon Brown is media advisers who think the new PM is just like the old PM. They've even given her Dave's old joke book for PMQs.
    Ha, so true. The No.10 resident comedian hasn't noticed that the new PM doesn't have the same delivery as the old one, she needs the jokes toned down a little.

    Dave Cameron was a master at the format, having done it for eleven years in both roles. Neither Mrs May nor Mr Corbyn really shine in the punchy, sound bite-driven noisy environment that is PMQs.
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I have to say I have similar reservations - although personally I think Putin is not particularly dangerous - but Hillary is ghastly and the imp in me finds the thought of the liberal left having a full on hyperventilating shriek festival is too good to resist.
    Tell that to Ukrainians on the Russian border. Putin is highly dangerous, but relatively predictable. A known unknown.
    Most of the Ukrainians on the Russian border speak Russianand regard themselves as Russian.

    Ukraine wasnt an issue until the EU started meddling.

    In the end the place will end up being partitioned with Ukraines eastern border running from west of Odessa to west of Kharkov and the rest being a republic in the Russian Federation.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I have to say I have similar reservations - although personally I think Putin is not particularly dangerous - but Hillary is ghastly and the imp in me finds the thought of the liberal left having a full on hyperventilating shriek festival is too good to resist.
    Tell that to Ukrainians on the Russian border. Putin is highly dangerous, but relatively predictable. A known unknown.
    Most of the Ukrainians on the Russian border speak Russianand regard themselves as Russian.

    Ukraine wasnt an issue until the EU started meddling.

    In the end the place will end up being partitioned with Ukraines eastern border running from west of Odessa to west of Kharkov and the rest being a republic in the Russian Federation.
    You're vastly oversimplifying the issues involved on both sides.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    To be impeached doesn't he have to do something in office?

    Trump is a clown and buffoon. He will make America crap again.

    Trump vs Clinton.

    Whoever wins....

    Whoever wins will probably get impeached, I agree.

    It's far more likely that by 2020 we may have President Pence or President Kaine.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    He can't be impeached for past skeletons, as (unlike his opponent) he's never held public office before. Whoever wins, they'll be watched over by opposition hawks desperate to find something that could be used to kick them out.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    weejonnie said:

    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    Speedy said:

    Just watching ITV News at the mo, they are reporting that May will give Hinkley Point C the go ahead shortly.

    If that is true then electricity prices will go through the roof.
    But we will have saved the planet - and that can't be all bad.
    You think having another pile of radioactive gunge is saving the planet. 30 years to decommission these monsters and nowhere to keep the crap.
    Send it by rocket into the Sun. Anyway if CO2 capture works (and we'll have to store the CO2 forever) then we can just put the radioactive waste in the same storage facility.
    What happens when the rocket explodes on the launch pad?
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    Interesting move.
    "This is the most positive development in relations between Argentina and Britain for more than 15 years, says the BBC's diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37362973
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    Absolutely Zero (BTW Impeachment is the action calling someone into account, not the prosecution of the case, nor the removal from office, which is the result of someone being successfully impeached.)

    "Impeachment in the United States is an expressed power of the legislature that allows formal charges to be brought against a civil officer of government for crimes alleged to have been committed while in office. " - Wikipedia

    Trump hasn't been in any civil office or government. Clinton, of course, could be successfully impeached for her e-mail security breaches - which wouldn't happen as the Republicans would want to face her in 2020.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I believe his love for Putin is because Trump is easy to flatter.

    Flattering is Trump's weak point, I'm not concerned about free trade under Trump, a little flattering by May will have Trump drooling.

    And anyway Trump has business interests in scotland, so we may offer some tax goodies on golf courses for Trump in exchange for a preferential trade deal.

    I'm far more relaxed about Trump than Hillary because Trump doesn't believe in anything but business, Hillary on the other hand is a crusader.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Thought that Corbyn's performance at PMQs was pretty mediocre but Theresa May's final riposte (sic) was toe-curlingly embarrassing. The lady just doesn't do jokes: she shouldn't try.

    My guess is at the end of the day (which could be some time), the outcome will be a modest expansion of existing grammar schools and perhaps a small pilot (one or two counties) on the possible creation of more. Just enough to safe face.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Spud defender decides that his best place is in attack.
    Spuds 1 Monaco 2

    This Champions League is not so tough is it ;-)
    Playing a team from Belgium is easier when the best Belgians have emigrated.
    You can only beat the teams in the group you get drawn against.

    Of course last season we beat loads of teams with Belgians in them...
    Yes. But where do you see Leicester finishing this season?
    I see Spuds in a 3 way fight with Arsenal and Liverpool for the 4th spot.
    Its a bit early to say. Top 10 would be fine. Top 6 would be the target.

    I don't think Spurs or Arsenal will be in top 4 this year, neither are as good as last year. Chelsea, Liverpool, and the two Manchesters this year.



  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    Interesting move.
    "This is the most positive development in relations between Argentina and Britain for more than 15 years, says the BBC's diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37362973

    Good effort from Alan Duncan there. New governments on both sides getting off to a good start diplomatically.
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    The Lib Dems have begun candidate selection for Witney and have a dedicated fundraising page up for the Byelection. So barring huge developments Lord Ashdown's naughty thought will remain just that. The problem with using the Byelection as a rerun of the referendum is UKIP can do exactly the same on the other end. Leaving the Conservatives to come comfortably through the middle. Realistically with a Labour and Green vote to squeeze are recovery in the Lib Dem vote at all will be seen as progress of the Lib Dems. Thdy need to change to narrative ( which is that they are dead ). So in that sense a distant 2nd place on 15% would do.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I believe his love for Putin is because Trump is easy to flatter.

    Flattering is Trump's weak point, I'm not concerned about free trade under Trump, a little flattering by May will have Trump drooling.

    And anyway Trump has business interests in scotland, so we may offer some tax goodies on golf courses for Trump in exchange for a preferential trade deal.

    I'm far more relaxed about Trump than Hillary because Trump doesn't believe in anything but business, Hillary on the other hand is a crusader.
    Crusader for cronyism if today's ambassador revelations are anything to go by.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
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    glwglw Posts: 9,554

    There are so many skeletons in Trump's cupboard. If he does win, what are the chances of impeachment?

    You can say much the same about Clinton. Do you think Republicans would give her any easy times if she wins?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    The Lib Dems have begun candidate selection for Witney and have a dedicated fundraising page up for the Byelection. So barring huge developments Lord Ashdown's naughty thought will remain just that. The problem with using the Byelection as a rerun of the referendum is UKIP can do exactly the same on the other end. Leaving the Conservatives to come comfortably through the middle. Realistically with a Labour and Green vote to squeeze are recovery in the Lib Dem vote at all will be seen as progress of the Lib Dems. Thdy need to change to narrative ( which is that they are dead ). So in that sense a distant 2nd place on 15% would do.

    The UKIP point only stands if the Tory candidate is a Remainer, surely?
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    I think Trump is against free trade where it puts American jobs at risk. i.e. competition with developing countries with a large labour-force that work for peanuts. His actions may be against American companies for outsourcing work and preventing companies from displacing jobs in the USA by importing cheap labour rather than trade barriers per se.

    No doubt as a businessman he took advantage of that (it would be stupid not to) but he is now trying to persuade the electorate that he is a poacher turned gamekeeper.

    Will Trump the politician be different from Trump the businessman?
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,311
    edited September 2016
    Sandpit said:

    MikeL said:

    Someone asked the following question late last night:

    Old boundaries - Lab needs 13% lead for a majority
    New boundaries - Lab needs 14% lead for a majority

    Also:

    New boundaries - Con needs 2% lead for a majority

    New boundaries - Lab needs 6% lead for Con & Lab to be level on seats

    May surely has to pull out every single thing she can to get this through.

    http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/09/first-look-at-the-boundary-review.html/

    I've tried running some crude numbers through Electoral Calculus and that suggests that Labour "only" needs something like a 12% lead for a majority - but regardless of the model the numbers do look to be very forbidding for them. Basically, they're reliant on Jeremy Corbyn being able to generate absolute vote shares in excess of 40% and the Tories doing appallingly just to get to a majority of one (and this is one of those occasions when I remind those not already aware that the Conservatives have polled at least 30% of the vote at every single GE since 1835.) Indeed, if you give both parties 36% each then the Tories are only just shy of a majority and Labour are 70 seats behind them. It's an astonishing reversal of Labour's previous systemic advantages.

    It's no wonder that the Tories are so assiduously pursuing a "no MP left behind" policy to shuffle all the retirements and ennoblements about, and try to make sure that threatened MPs are moved into safe seats. The advantages of getting the new boundaries through are clearly enormous for them.
    Absolutely. People underestimate how important this is to the Conservative party. There will be massive effort of carrots and sticks from the whips over the next two years, to make sure this goes off without a hitch.

    Anyone who is being awkward now will end up with a knighthood, a seat in the Lords or a job as Ambassador to Singapore or the Seychelles.
    How does this fit in with local party autonomy?

    Surely local parties choose their candidates?

    However, at the same time, presumably new local associations would all have to be set up for all new seats - so local parties don't actually exist until that happens?

    So how will it work in practice?

    eg Take the extra Isle of Wight seat. Could Theresa May just issue an edict that the Con candidate will be X? If not, what would have to happen?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MP_SE said:

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I believe his love for Putin is because Trump is easy to flatter.

    Flattering is Trump's weak point, I'm not concerned about free trade under Trump, a little flattering by May will have Trump drooling.

    And anyway Trump has business interests in scotland, so we may offer some tax goodies on golf courses for Trump in exchange for a preferential trade deal.

    I'm far more relaxed about Trump than Hillary because Trump doesn't believe in anything but business, Hillary on the other hand is a crusader.
    Crusader for cronyism if today's ambassador revelations are anything to go by.
    Well crusader in that she truly believes in some policy or ideology and detests all others, she is clearly as bad as Blair and on the way she conducts her personal finances too.
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    Grammar schools are a terrific brand and a lousy product. By adopting the brand May has played a blinder. She's touched the same cultural erogenous zone as Brexit and given herself a USP to the Hard Brexit headbangers on her backbenches. She will need that USP. As Grammars are such a lousy product I'm assuming that as a serious politician she'll be quite happy with a minor relaxing in the current expansion rules and two or three rural countries doing a pilot on new ones. Of course as we all know PM's do do very stupid things occasionally so we'll see. However I remain to be convinced this is anything other than a clever ruse re Brexit.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BethRigby: BREAK: Some of MPs named accused of 'abuse' by team #Corbyn seeking legal advice for defamation #BattleForLabour https://t.co/K8LA4cmWEK
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @STJamesl: Some Labour Mps v upset not to make Corbyn's enemies list. "There is no appeals process," said one.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    The Lib Dems have begun candidate selection for Witney and have a dedicated fundraising page up for the Byelection. So barring huge developments Lord Ashdown's naughty thought will remain just that. The problem with using the Byelection as a rerun of the referendum is UKIP can do exactly the same on the other end. Leaving the Conservatives to come comfortably through the middle. Realistically with a Labour and Green vote to squeeze are recovery in the Lib Dem vote at all will be seen as progress of the Lib Dems. Thdy need to change to narrative ( which is that they are dead ). So in that sense a distant 2nd place on 15% would do.

    The UKIP point only stands if the Tory candidate is a Remainer, surely?
    Whoever the candidate is they'll support Brexit now. The issue is they'll be put under huge pressure to go beyond current government policy on Red Lines. UKIP can very easierly run on a " No Surrender " ticket albeit at the fringes. It's a bit too posher seat for UKIP.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Speedy said:
    I think the word is 'Scuttlebutt' - Buzzfeed do not seem to be an objective organisation. "In October 2014, it was noted by the Pew Research Center that in the United States, BuzzFeed was viewed as an unreliable source by the majority of people, regardless of political affiliation." - Wikipedia
  • Options
    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    West Oxfordshire was 53% + Remain. Don't know about Witney exactly.
  • Options

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    West Oxfordshire was 53% + Remain. Don't know about Witney exactly.
    West Oxfordshire has the same boundaries as Witney so 53% remain
  • Options
    MikeL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MikeL said:

    Someone asked the following question late last night:

    Old boundaries - Lab needs 13% lead for a majority
    New boundaries - Lab needs 14% lead for a majority

    Also:

    New boundaries - Con needs 2% lead for a majority

    New boundaries - Lab needs 6% lead for Con & Lab to be level on seats

    May surely has to pull out every single thing she can to get this through.

    http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/09/first-look-at-the-boundary-review.html/

    .....Basically, they're reliant on Jeremy Corbyn being able to generate absolute vote shares in excess of 40% and the Tories doing appallingly just to get to a majority of one (and this is one of those occasions when I remind those not already aware that the Conservatives have polled at least 30% of the vote at every single GE since 1835.) Indeed, if you give both parties 36% each then the Tories are only just shy of a majority and Labour are 70 seats behind them. It's an astonishing reversal of Labour's previous systemic advantages.

    It's no wonder that the Tories are so assiduously pursuing a "no MP left behind" policy to shuffle all the retirements and ennoblements about, and try to make sure that threatened MPs are moved into safe seats. The advantages of getting the new boundaries through are clearly enormous for them.
    Absolutely. People underestimate how important this is to the Conservative party. There will be massive effort of carrots and sticks from the whips over the next two years, to make sure this goes off without a hitch.

    Anyone who is being awkward now will end up with a knighthood, a seat in the Lords or a job as Ambassador to Singapore or the Seychelles.
    How does this fit in with local party autonomy?
    Surely local parties choose their candidates?
    However, at the same time, presumably new local associations would all have to be set up for all new seats - so local parties don't actually exist until that happens?
    So how will it work in practice?
    eg Take the extra Isle of Wight seat. Could Theresa May just issue an edict that the Con candidate will be X? If not, what would have to happen?
    If managed carefully most problems can be overcome. There was an article on Con Home on the draft principles. Also do note the late retirements which could easily add another 6 guaranteed seats in return for peerages and other jobs. The biggest challenge are with the europhiles. Far too many of them for the membership to put up with. However with the continued death of Labour, there could be circa 40 gains from a new GE. But does Patrick McLoughlin inspire confidence as Chairman to anyone in the party?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    West Oxfordshire was 53% + Remain. Don't know about Witney exactly.
    Thanks
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    MikeL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MikeL said:

    I've tried running some crude numbers through Electoral Calculus and that suggests that Labour "only" needs something like a 12% lead for a majority - but regardless of the model the numbers do look to be very forbidding for them. Basically, they're reliant on Jeremy Corbyn being able to generate absolute vote shares in excess of 40% and the Tories doing appallingly just to get to a majority of one (and this is one of those occasions when I remind those not already aware that the Conservatives have polled at least 30% of the vote at every single GE since 1835.) Indeed, if you give both parties 36% each then the Tories are only just shy of a majority and Labour are 70 seats behind them. It's an astonishing reversal of Labour's previous systemic advantages.

    It's no wonder that the Tories are so assiduously pursuing a "no MP left behind" policy to shuffle all the retirements and ennoblements about, and try to make sure that threatened MPs are moved into safe seats. The advantages of getting the new boundaries through are clearly enormous for them.
    Absolutely. People underestimate how important this is to the Conservative party. There will be massive effort of carrots and sticks from the whips over the next two years, to make sure this goes off without a hitch.

    Anyone who is being awkward now will end up with a knighthood, a seat in the Lords or a job as Ambassador to Singapore or the Seychelles.
    How does this fit in with local party autonomy?

    Surely local parties choose their candidates?

    However, at the same time, presumably new local associations would all have to be set up for all new seats - so local parties don't actually exist until that happens?

    So how will it work in practice?

    eg Take the extra Isle of Wight seat. Could Theresa May just issue an edict that the Con candidate will be X? If not, what would have to happen?
    Yes, it's a careful balancing act between the local party associations and CCHQ to adjust to the reduction in HoC seats. The local party chooses their candidate in theory, but with the reshuffle there will be a need to accommodate people and the local associations will be expected to play their part.

    In 2010 we had a central 'A list' of candidates for marginal winnable seats, with variable results (yes you, Mrs Mench). It will be interesting to see the approach taken for 2020, we'll probably get more details at Conference or over the next year. When the final draft of the new boundaries comes out we'll want to start lining up candidates ASAP, get canvas data on new boundaries etc in preparation for the election.
  • Options

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    BigRich said:

    can anybody remember, how did Witney voted in the referendum?

    I know somebody did an analysis to estimate how each Parliamentary constituency voted, but can find it now.

    West Oxfordshire was 53% + Remain. Don't know about Witney exactly.
    To pretend that the hard core REMAIN fanatics is much higher than 20% is IMHO delusional. But Pantsdown is welcome to his scheming.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    BBC take on Powell leak....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP....Clinton hubris over email....TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37364189

    If Trump does win the media are going to the most unbelievable meltdown.

    June 24th with knobs on.
    Trump winning will be like the Brexit vote was a parish council vote on a new road. The media will go absolutely ballistic.
    Two things about Trump make me nervous:

    1. His general hostility to free trade, which is one of the few consistent strands in his philosophy.

    2. His love for Putin.

    I also felt that his statements about how a judge of Mexican origin couldn't be impartial betrayed an underlying racism that makes me very uncomfortable. Oh for Paul Ryan.
    I have to say I have similar reservations - although personally I think Putin is not particularly dangerous - but Hillary is ghastly and the imp in me finds the thought of the liberal left having a full on hyperventilating shriek festival is too good to resist.
    Tell that to Ukrainians on the Russian border. Putin is highly dangerous, but relatively predictable. A known unknown.
    Most of the Ukrainians on the Russian border speak Russianand regard themselves as Russian.

    Ukraine wasnt an issue until the EU started meddling.

    In the end the place will end up being partitioned with Ukraines eastern border running from west of Odessa to west of Kharkov and the rest being a republic in the Russian Federation.
    Kippers like Putin because he's anti-EU.

This discussion has been closed.