politicalbetting
Home› General

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Sign In Register

Categories

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meet Liam Fox, the 21st century Gerald Ratner

SystemSystem Posts: 11,712
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meet Liam Fox, the 21st century Gerald Ratner

Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, has been attacked by businesspeople and politicians for suggesting British executives would rather play golf rather than export their goods and services, in an extraordinary attack on the country’s “lazy” business culture.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,016
    FPT: Miss Plato, Lee Sullivan?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Sullivan_(comics)
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited September 2016
    lazy second

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974
    Bronze.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Fox's arrogant attitude showed itself when he took his "friend" around the world while he was a minister.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,483
    TSE = TINO :)
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Morris_Dancer said:

    FPT: Miss Plato, Lee Sullivan?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Sullivan_(comics)

    Think this is him.

    https://www.facebook.com/Doctor-Who-Art-by-Lee-Johnson-222814385038/posts

    Can't find anything too recent though.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    TSE Do I take it that you are unimpressed with Liam Fox?
  • Options
    linkriderlinkrider Posts: 13
    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    If I was asked to go on a business trip with Liam Fox, I'd have a pre-existing golf tournament in my diary.

    And I don't play golf...
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,483
    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    He went to Evil Medical School :)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,483
    Is it true that Golf is the only "sport" more boring than Test Cricket?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    I think you're going OTT to compare Fox's faux pas (I wouldn't even call it that TBH) with Ratner.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,483
    GIN1138 said:

    I think you're going OTT to compare Fox's faux pas (I wouldn't even call it that TBH) with Ratner.

    TSE is a Tory In Name Only (TINO).
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    GIN1138 said:

    I think you're going OTT to compare Fox's faux pas (I wouldn't even call it that TBH) with Ratner.

    It's butt-hurt filler.

    @Alanbrooke and many others here have made similar observations.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    SquareRoot said:

    TSE Do I take it that you are unimpressed with Liam Fox?

    He is unimpressed for anyone not called George Osborne.

    I have critizised Fox in the past, but Fox is right this time.

    It's not just british big businesses though that have become "lazy and fat", all large corporations eventually become like that, just look this month at Apple with their crappy iPhone 7 and Samsung with their exploding Galaxy 7.
  • Options
    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    The evidence mounts May knew exactly what she was doing when she appointed the quixotic trio of Brexiteers to the key roles. I doubt she'll be losing an sleep that two of the three have shot their mouths off so soon and been subsequently put on the naughty step.

    Of course politically speaking Fox is correct. It's the ultimate gaff in that he's told the truth. The very existence of his International Trade department says we're leaving the Customs Union and looking at far leaner and meaner bilaterals than the European model we're used to. The fact that voters in Sunderland and GM crop fearing Daily Mail readers have no earthly idea what's about to hit them is both tragic and utterly hilarious..

    All Fox has done, perhaps deliberately, is quicken the pace on the debate on the sort of Brexit we're going to have.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Is it true that Golf is the only "sport" more boring than Test Cricket?

    No! Both are supremely watchable sports. Playing them is another matter entirely. ;)
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    YellowSubmarine said:

    The evidence mounts May knew exactly what she was doing when she appointed the quixotic trio of Brexiteers to the key roles. I doubt she'll be losing an sleep that two of the three have shot their mouths off so soon and been subsequently put on the naughty step.

    Of course politically speaking Fox is correct. It's the ultimate gaff in that he's told the truth. The very existence of his International Trade department says we're leaving the Customs Union and looking at far leaner and meaner bilaterals than the European model we're used to. The fact that voters in Sunderland and GM crop fearing Daily Mail readers have no earthly idea what's about to hit them is both tragic and utterly hilarious..

    All Fox has done, perhaps deliberately, is quicken the pace on the debate on the sort of Brexit we're going to have.

    I like Fraser Nelson's article on Foxgate. We're about to rerun the Corn Laws debate.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
  • Options
    madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    Mr Fox - from his actions - could about run to running a dustcart. A Secretary of State requires some competence. Mrs May put the three nutters in positions where failure will be evident publicly - and terminal to their careers..

    After all, all three have form...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    Fox is just pissed that Brexit has fallen out of the news for a couple of days, overtaken by Education. So he says something controversial, designed to prise the spotlight back onto him.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,483
    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Greetings, Dr Ishmael!

    love,

    Dr Sunil :)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,196
    edited September 2016
    If we leave the EU and the Single Market (which we almost certainly will either fully or in part) clearly British business will have to look beyond the EU, particularly to expand in Asia and the Americas to ensure we continue to prosper. However Fox should be helping them do this not making negative comments on them as he has done here. He also ruled out tariffs, unfortunately if the worst comes to the worst and the EU restricts access of UK goods to the Single Market tariffs or trade barriers will have to be able to be deployed by the UK government on EU goods coming to the UK in response
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974
    MikeK said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Is it true that Golf is the only "sport" more boring than Test Cricket?

    No! Both are supremely watchable sports. Playing them is another matter entirely. ;)
    Golf is one of the few professional sports that's much better to watch on TV than go and see live.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    Obama has capitulated to the Russians in Syria.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974
    On topic. Someone with Fox's experience really should understand that how something is said, is at least as important as what is said. He made a good point, but could have expressed himself much better
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MaxPB said:

    Obama has capitulated to the Russians in Syria.

    I don't think so, the real danger here would be Trump to take credit for the negotiations.

    Meanwhile Hillary is channeling her inner Bob Geldof :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/hillary-clinton-calls-half-of-donald-trump-supporters-racist-sexist-homophobic-xenophobic-and-a7235926.html

    "Hillary Clinton calls half of Donald Trump supporters racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic

    Democratic candidate comes under heavy criticism "

    Those things maybe true but you should never attack the public, Hillary's war is with Trump not his voters, by attacking the voters you make them rally around Trump even more.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    MaxPB said:

    Obama has capitulated to the Russians in Syria.

    You are surprised?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Speedy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama has capitulated to the Russians in Syria.

    I don't think so, the real danger here would be Trump to take credit for the negotiations.

    Meanwhile Hillary is channeling her inner Bob Geldof :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/hillary-clinton-calls-half-of-donald-trump-supporters-racist-sexist-homophobic-xenophobic-and-a7235926.html

    "Hillary Clinton calls half of Donald Trump supporters racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic

    Democratic candidate comes under heavy criticism "

    Those things maybe true but you should never attack the public, Hillary's war is with Trump not his voters, by attacking the voters you make them rally around Trump even more.
    A really stupid comment by Clinton is she really saying about 20% of the country are "irredeemable"? Very dangerous and desperate.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    HYUFD said:

    If we leave the EU and the Single Market (which we almost certainly will either fully or in part) clearly British business will have to look beyond the EU, particularly to expand in Asia and the Americas to ensure we continue to prosper. However Fox should be helping them do this not making negative comments on them as he has done here. He also ruled out tariffs, unfortunately if the worst comes to the worst and the EU restricts access of UK goods to the Single Market tariffs or trade barriers will have to be able to be deployed by the UK government on EU goods coming to the UK in response

    I'll have to have a dig, but I'm sure I saw a treatment of WTO MFN with the UK unilaterally dropping import tariffs (can't recall if quotas were involved). On the other hand I could be hallucinating.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Sandpit said:

    On topic. Someone with Fox's experience really should understand that how something is said, is at least as important as what is said. He made a good point, but could have expressed himself much better

    Time for all these types to get into the 21st century, the 19th century bollox is embarrassing , only a real plonker would give it "It is Dr Fannypants "
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
  • Options
    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    What he has is a means-end confusion.

  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    nunu said:

    Speedy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Obama has capitulated to the Russians in Syria.

    I don't think so, the real danger here would be Trump to take credit for the negotiations.

    Meanwhile Hillary is channeling her inner Bob Geldof :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/hillary-clinton-calls-half-of-donald-trump-supporters-racist-sexist-homophobic-xenophobic-and-a7235926.html

    "Hillary Clinton calls half of Donald Trump supporters racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic

    Democratic candidate comes under heavy criticism "

    Those things maybe true but you should never attack the public, Hillary's war is with Trump not his voters, by attacking the voters you make them rally around Trump even more.
    A really stupid comment by Clinton is she really saying about 20% of the country are "irredeemable"? Very dangerous and desperate.
    It reminds me of Pat Buchanan's Culture War speech in 1992, or Romney's 47% speech in 2012.

    It could have the same effect.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    If only he was anything other than a pillock of the first order. Country is being run by these donkeys , it is absolutely amazing how they ever got to where they are.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,196
    John_M said:

    HYUFD said:

    If we leave the EU and the Single Market (which we almost certainly will either fully or in part) clearly British business will have to look beyond the EU, particularly to expand in Asia and the Americas to ensure we continue to prosper. However Fox should be helping them do this not making negative comments on them as he has done here. He also ruled out tariffs, unfortunately if the worst comes to the worst and the EU restricts access of UK goods to the Single Market tariffs or trade barriers will have to be able to be deployed by the UK government on EU goods coming to the UK in response

    I'll have to have a dig, but I'm sure I saw a treatment of WTO MFN with the UK unilaterally dropping import tariffs (can't recall if quotas were involved). On the other hand I could be hallucinating.
    Would be interesting to see if you can ever find it!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Sandpit said:

    On topic. Someone with Fox's experience really should understand that how something is said, is at least as important as what is said. He made a good point, but could have expressed himself much better

    Time for all these types to get into the 21st century, the 19th century bollox is embarrassing , only a real plonker would give it "It is Dr Fannypants "
    It's Dr Alistair Fannypants thank you very much
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    It's not just british business that's like that, but most large western companies.

    If you have noticed instead of investing they buy back their shares to inflate their price and borrow large amounts of money to give to themselves as dividends.

    Low interest rates and Q.Easing have made them lazy.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    He wasn't. I got married in 1988. My wedding ring came from Ratners - it's an eternity ring sort with lots of small diamonds. Never been off my finger since bar a couple of times and still perfect. The settings haven't bent, clicked clothes and all the stones are there/still sparkly.

    The mistake Ratner made was to insult his customers re the average quality of what they sold. IIRC he was referring to cheap decanters or somesuch, not the jewellery.

    IIRC it cost about £250 back then. It was bought on HP!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    He wasn't. I got married in 1988. My wedding ring came from Ratners - it's an eternity ring sort with lots of small diamonds. Never been off my finger since bar a couple of times and still perfect. The settings haven't bent, clicked clothes and all the stones are there/still sparkly.

    The mistake Ratner made was to insult his customers re the average quality of what they sold. IIRC he was referring to cheap decanters or somesuch, not the jewellery.

    IIRC it cost about £250 back then. It was bought on HP!
    He specifically referred to the jewlerry.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,140
    Speedy said:

    SquareRoot said:

    TSE Do I take it that you are unimpressed with Liam Fox?

    He is unimpressed for anyone not called George Osborne.

    I have critizised Fox in the past, but Fox is right this time.

    It's not just british big businesses though that have become "lazy and fat", all large corporations eventually become like that, just look this month at Apple with their crappy iPhone 7 and Samsung with their exploding Galaxy 7.
    I can name two British companies that are generally doing very well: Dyson and JCB. They have one major thing in common that might point to the problem confronting other companies: ownership and finance.

    To defend Apple (spit): as the competition grows better, it's hard to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary. Some have managed it though: https://www.clove.co.uk/cat-s60

    To defend Samsung (spit from Mrs J): this could strike any company that is pushing the envelope. It's just with batteries the consequences of failure can be dire.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    Speedy said:

    It's not just british business that's like that, but most large western companies.

    If you have noticed instead of investing they buy back their shares to inflate their price and borrow large amounts of money to give to themselves as dividends.

    Low interest rates and Q.Easing have made them lazy.

    As well as that I hope that the new government will do something about executive pay and bonuses, and their accountability.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,302
    edited September 2016
    Sandpit said:

    MikeK said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Is it true that Golf is the only "sport" more boring than Test Cricket?

    No! Both are supremely watchable sports. Playing them is another matter entirely. ;)
    Golf is one of the few professional sports that's much better to watch on TV than go and see live.
    Practice ground is the place to watch professional golfers...I have a friend who only goes to the practice days of majors, not because he can't afford the time or money to go to the actual tournament.

    A few years ago I went to the Open and watched with awe as at 6am Phil Mickelson turned up, had a few practice swishes and then proceeded to put on a masterclass...hitting the 100 yard sign with the accuracy of a Glen McGarth over.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    Fraser says Fox is right.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,302
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Calling 1/3 of the country racist bigots is a brilliant campaign strategy, just ask PM David Cameron....again if you look at why the likes of Sanders and Trump gained traction is due to serious issues in American society and ones which Obama / Clinton aren't doing anything about.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Frank Luntz
    Pro Tip: Don't lead with a statement like #BasketOfDeplorables if it takes this long of a statement to explain it. https://t.co/TAdVJ8urvz
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    malcolmg said:

    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    If only he was anything other than a pillock of the first order. Country is being run by these donkeys , it is absolutely amazing how they ever got to where they are.
    Afternoon Malc! :smiley:

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,179
    http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/brexit-wolfgang-schaeuble-fuerchtet-hoehere-eu-beitraege-fuer-deutschland-a-1111653.html

    German government paper says Brexit will cost them billions.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    She is doing her best to rally republicans around Trump.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    As I said she is channeling her inner Bob Geldof at the Battle of the Thames.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    geoffw said:

    Fraser says Fox is right.

    When you read what he says in full it's clear the point he's making is a bit more subtle than the excerpted joke. And he's right.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    But are you are likely to wind them up to the point where they are determined to get out and vote. Bonkers. What was she thinking?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Alistair said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    linkrider said:

    Why does Fox use the form of address 'Doctor'? As far as I am aware he does not have a higher degree (Ph.D) which would entitle him to do so, only medical qualifications where he might use the title as a courtesy when practising that trade.

    Contrariwise, it's PhDs calling themselves doctor that I can't be doing with (and I am one).
    Medical Doctors have the Title MD. PhDs are the true Doctors.
    Sandpit said:

    On topic. Someone with Fox's experience really should understand that how something is said, is at least as important as what is said. He made a good point, but could have expressed himself much better

    Time for all these types to get into the 21st century, the 19th century bollox is embarrassing , only a real plonker would give it "It is Dr Fannypants "
    It's Dr Alistair Fannypants thank you very much
    LOL, the Doctor of Fun
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    If only he was anything other than a pillock of the first order. Country is being run by these donkeys , it is absolutely amazing how they ever got to where they are.
    Afternoon Malc! :smiley:

    Hello Gin, Hope you are well
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Pro Tip: Don't lead with a statement like #BasketOfDeplorables if it takes this long of a statement to explain it. https://t.co/TAdVJ8urvz

    The purpose of good advocacy is persuasion, not earning high fives from your most committed supporters.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    T Becket Adams
    Bill Clinton says slogan he used in the 1990s is racist now that Trump is using it.

    https://t.co/WnKJq2z26t
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    If only he was anything other than a pillock of the first order. Country is being run by these donkeys , it is absolutely amazing how they ever got to where they are.
    Afternoon Malc! :smiley:

    Hello Gin, Hope you are well
    Very well thanks. Have been trying to work out where I stand in the war between Dr Fox and complacent, REMAINING CEO's of British business...

    It's a bit like trying to choose between Pol Pot and Stalin... ;)

    Anyway, must dash, I'm getting my British flags ready for Last Night Of The Proms! :smiley:
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Pro Tip: Don't lead with a statement like #BasketOfDeplorables if it takes this long of a statement to explain it. https://t.co/TAdVJ8urvz

    The purpose of good advocacy is persuasion, not earning high fives from your most committed supporters.
    Been watching this unfold for a few hours and it's beyond Own Goal stuff - it's Little Englander Brexit territory judging by the fuss I've seen so far from Trumpers.

    She's spent 10secs feeling smug to core voters - and swapped it for pissing off thousands of others who wouldn't normally turn out.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,179
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    T Becket Adams
    Bill Clinton says slogan he used in the 1990s is racist now that Trump is using it.

    https://t.co/WnKJq2z26t

    Doesn't his phraseology 'push them back up the social totem pole' implicitly concede the argument that these people have been neglected?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    williamglenn said:

    http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/brexit-wolfgang-schaeuble-fuerchtet-hoehere-eu-beitraege-fuer-deutschland-a-1111653.html

    German government paper says Brexit will cost them billions.

    It goes on to say that therefore the UK will need to make payments to the EU if it wants to retain access to the single market.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sahil Kapur
    Mike Pence torches Clinton’s “basket of deplorables” comment about Trump supporters at #VVS16. His full response. https://t.co/GU1YzqJgzi

    Great response here
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    Labour still won in 1950
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    Labour still won in 1950
    :lol:
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    Labour still won in 1950
    Only just, and they went on to lose the following year. I'm not saying that type of insult is decisive, but it doesn't assist one's cause in any way that I can see.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :neutral:

    Twenty years ago today, people rushed to stores to get the newly-released Windows 95. https://t.co/NMGYENLron
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    Sean_F said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    Labour still won in 1950
    Only just, and they went on to lose the following year. I'm not saying that type of insult is decisive, but it doesn't assist one's cause in any way that I can see.
    Looked it up. Liberals got 9 seats - interesting to see most where in Wales. Their leader was Clement Davies, who I'm not sure I have even ever heard of, or if I had, I've forgotten. According to wikipedia 3 of his 4 children died - all at the age of 24. Which is tragic and odd.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    PlatoSaid said:

    :neutral:

    Twenty years ago today, people rushed to stores to get the newly-released Windows 95. https://t.co/NMGYENLron

    Ah, seems like yesterday.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    williamglenn said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    T Becket Adams
    Bill Clinton says slogan he used in the 1990s is racist now that Trump is using it.

    https://t.co/WnKJq2z26t

    Doesn't his phraseology 'push them back up the social totem pole' implicitly concede the argument that these people have been neglected?
    Isn't 'totem pole' an example of gross ethnic cultural appropriation?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2016
    Clinton's campaign messaging ability makes Owen Smith's look rather good...

    I note the poll figures mentioned in previous thread had Trump up in all JackW's FOP states....
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    PlatoSaid said:

    :neutral:

    Twenty years ago today, people rushed to stores to get the newly-released Windows 95. https://t.co/NMGYENLron

    Not twenty years ago today. Clue is in the name 95 ...
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The end game on this is that Trump is a birther.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    You have little to gain, not nothing. If it makes your own voters determined to come out then that is a good thing, the problem is you're likely to alienate opponents more than you motivate supporters.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    rottenborough said:

    Sean_F said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Luntz
    Attacking your opponent is common sense.

    Attacking voters is campaign suicide. #BasketOfDeplorables https://t.co/BNQsM71PTa

    Unless you're attacking opponents voters that would never vote for you.
    Even then, you have nothing to gain by doing so, and possibly something to lose if they make a point of coming out to vote. It's like calling Conservative voters "lower than vermin."
    Labour still won in 1950
    Only just, and they went on to lose the following year. I'm not saying that type of insult is decisive, but it doesn't assist one's cause in any way that I can see.
    Looked it up. Liberals got 9 seats - interesting to see most where in Wales. Their leader was Clement Davies, who I'm not sure I have even ever heard of, or if I had, I've forgotten. According to wikipedia 3 of his 4 children died - all at the age of 24. Which is tragic and odd.
    By 1950, rural Wales was the only place left where significant numbers still voted Liberal.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    rottenborough said:

    williamglenn said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    T Becket Adams
    Bill Clinton says slogan he used in the 1990s is racist now that Trump is using it.

    https://t.co/WnKJq2z26t

    Doesn't his phraseology 'push them back up the social totem pole' implicitly concede the argument that these people have been neglected?
    Isn't 'totem pole' an example of gross ethnic cultural appropriation?
    IIRC being top or bottom of the totem pole is also supposedly an urban fiction.

    " The vertical order of images is widely believed to be a significant representation of importance, an idea that became so pervasive it entered into common parlance with the phrase "low man on the totem pole". This phrase, indicative of the most common belief of ordering importance, suggests the higher figures on the pole are more important or prestigious. A counterargument frequently heard is that the figures are arranged in reverse hierarchy, with the most important representations on the bottom, at eye level with the viewer to heighten his significance.[25] There are no restrictions on vertical order; many poles have significant figures on the top, others on the bottom, and some in the middle. Other poles have no vertical arrangement, consisting of a lone figure atop an undecorated column.[citation needed]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem_pole
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Alistair said:

    The end game on this is that Trump is a birther.

    He isn't and said so a day or so ago - really, your appreciation of US politics is terribly poor.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Alistair said:

    The end game on this is that Trump is a birther.

    He isn't and said so a day or so ago - really, your appreciation of US politics is terribly poor.
    Really? His long documented series of repeated statements where he questioned the veracity of Obama's birth status doesn't make him a birther?

    Anyway, what he said was "I don't talk about it because if I talk about that, your whole thing will be about that. So I don't talk about it." Which is not the same thin as saying isn't. As it lacked him saying he isn't.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    rottenborough said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    :neutral:

    Twenty years ago today, people rushed to stores to get the newly-released Windows 95. https://t.co/NMGYENLron

    Ah, seems like yesterday.
    Silver Age TV
    On this date in 1953, #Swanson began selling its first #TVDinner. Today #NationalTVDinnerDay is observed on Sept. 10 https://t.co/50ThHgJ79L
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :smiley:

    Paul Kirkby
    Interesting, depressing analysis of the occupations played by film extras, by gender. https://t.co/ST3JtaDMU1 https://t.co/eGNkzaTgoC
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Alistair said:

    The end game on this is that Trump is a birther.

    He isn't and said so a day or so ago - really, your appreciation of US politics is terribly poor.
    Really? His long documented series of repeated statements where he questioned the veracity of Obama's birth status doesn't make him a birther?
    Rudy says he's changed his mind:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article100809907.html

    Still, small beer compared to Trump's belief that climate change is a "hoax".
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
    Odds on Juncker?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,016
    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Alistair, Galen didn't need a doctorate, and neither did Hippocrates.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 4h4 hours ago
    My prediction Hillary would destroy Trump was predicated on the assumption she would not turn into Mitt Romney.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,179
    MaxPB said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
    Odds on Juncker?
    No, it's got to be Boris Johnson.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,143
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
    GIN, thought you were going out, you not able to find those union jack underpants
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    The Republicans can have a 5 point swing to them of no college whites plus a 5 point bump in their turnout and it doesn't matter if college whites swing towards the Democrats, which they are doing.

    This is about targeting suburban college whites to peel them away from voting Trump.

    Trump's African American 'outreach' is also about targeting suburban college educated whites as well, to try and make him seem safe and inclusive enough to vote for.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,811
    PlatoSaid said:

    glw said:

    SimonStClare said:

    The daft thing was, Gerald Ratner's comments tarnished his own brand, Fox only damages himself. - However to be fair, on this occasion Fox may have a point.

    Ratner was right, the products he sold were crap. Fox is right as well, British businesses could do a lot more to develop their export business.

    In Ratner's case telling the truth was a disaster, but Fox might provoke a wider debate about why British businesses don't do as well as they might.
    He wasn't. I got married in 1988. My wedding ring came from Ratners - it's an eternity ring sort with lots of small diamonds. Never been off my finger since bar a couple of times and still perfect. The settings haven't bent, clicked clothes and all the stones are there/still sparkly.

    The mistake Ratner made was to insult his customers re the average quality of what they sold. IIRC he was referring to cheap decanters or somesuch, not the jewellery.

    IIRC it cost about £250 back then. It was bought on HP!
    The jewelry he was talking about was "cheaper than an M&S prawn sandwich, but probably wouldn't last as long." Possibly a different range from yours. The point he was making was a good one, and better than Fox. If you are only paying a few pounds you shouldn't expect the same quality as the £250 ring. His crime was to expose the pretence tacitly agreed between merchant and customer. Ratners wasn't selling rings. It was selling the illusion of luxury. The last thing the merchant should do is to shatter that illusion in the most public way possible. Marketing 101

    Maybe Fox is the same. He is shattering the Brexit illusion. When you exclaim, "Emperor's new clothes" you are not supposed to refer to yourself!
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    rottenborough said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    Who will rock up and tell the Yanks they'll be "at the back of the queue" if they dare to vote for The Donald? :smiley:
    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 4h4 hours ago
    My prediction Hillary would destroy Trump was predicated on the assumption she would not turn into Mitt Romney.
    Hodges' political insight is always worth ignoring.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,978
    MarqueeMark said:

    Fox is just pissed that Brexit has fallen out of the news for a couple of days, overtaken by Education. So he says something controversial, designed to prise the spotlight back onto him.

    More concisely - Fox was just pissed.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,179
    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign.

    You mean John Gummer trying to convince everyone it wasn't a mad cow?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,330
    rottenborough said:

    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Alistair said:

    The end game on this is that Trump is a birther.

    He isn't and said so a day or so ago - really, your appreciation of US politics is terribly poor.
    Really? His long documented series of repeated statements where he questioned the veracity of Obama's birth status doesn't make him a birther?
    Rudy says he's changed his mind:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article100809907.html

    Still, small beer compared to Trump's belief that climate change is a "hoax".
    Lol.
    Giuliani states several times, providing no evidence, that Trump accepts that Obama was born in Hawaii, and then asserts several times, again providing no evidence, that it's the Clinton campaign that has raised the issue of Obama's birthplace.

    Ah, that transient moment after 9/11 when the world thought 'Sir' Rudy might be a half decent human being on conversational terms with truth; what suckahs we were.

  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Alistair, Galen didn't need a doctorate, and neither did Hippocrates.

    On the down side, neither of them had any medical insight which would not either make no difference or make things considerably worse.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have to say that the Clinton campaign is eerily similar to the BSE campaign. Her latest insult to Trump voters is reminiscent of Dave's "little Englander" comment. It's just going to make people rally around him.

    The Republicans can have a 5 point swing to them of no college whites plus a 5 point bump in their turnout and it doesn't matter if college whites swing towards the Democrats, which they are doing.

    This is about targeting suburban college whites to peel them away from voting Trump.

    Trump's African American 'outreach' is also about targeting suburban college educated whites as well, to try and make him seem safe and inclusive enough to vote for.
    No one will switch away from the Republicans because of this sort of comment, any more than Little Englanders or Lower than Vermin caused people to switch away from Brexit or the Conservatives.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,471
    SouthamObserver said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Fox is just pissed that Brexit has fallen out of the news for a couple of days, overtaken by Education. So he says something controversial, designed to prise the spotlight back onto him.

    More concisely - Fox was just pissed.
    Dead cats on tables everywhere you look.
This discussion has been closed.