Sorry just catching up. Re:Tradesmen's earnings versus the graduate premium, unless one is academically very gifted (i.e. about 10% f the young people university would seem a very bad deal compared to taking up a skilled trade).
I have just had the final bill from the chap who ripped out the old and put in a new bathroom - £4,220 for two week's work, that is labour only, materials plus, tiles, fittings etc were in addition. How many people, graduates or otherwise, earn £2,000 a week? The bloke concerned is a graduate and used to work installing and maintaining flight simulators for CAe, he switched to a job that earns him more and allows him to spend more time at home with wife and family. He doesn't advertise, but is now booked solid until mid-January 2017.
The fellow I found, after months of searching, to repoint one corner of the house (five days work at £300 a day) has now pulled out, better money on offer elsewhere. The qualified plumber we had in to re-jig the hot water system prior to the new bathroom, £400 a day. Electricians cost about the same is you can get one (fellow at the pub runs a spark's business, and is run off his feet, cannot recruit enough qualified people and, get this, can't find youngsters to take on as apprentices).
Graduate premium, my bottom. Ok, a sparks is a sparks, a plumber a plumber and there is no career ladder to climb. But at 2 grand a week who would worry.
Most plumbers are on mid £20k or a little above, of course the more people train as plumbers and electricians the less demand there will be for them and the few who are very highly paid will diminish rapidly
Source please ? With special reference to your use of the word "most"
HurstLlama, your casual dismissal of my references while you offer none to support your own contentions is getting a bit tedious. Why do you think the list is bollocks? What do you think is likely to have changed over the last four years? Why should I simply take you at your word?
Just look at it. Does this seem remotely credible ?
60 Barristers and judges £40,242 -5.3
"Judges and Barristers" only seven hundred quid a year better off than "Police Officers (Sergeant and Below)"
The average criminal or family law barrister will be on about that unless they are a QC, commercial barristers on the other hand will almost all be in 6 figures or even 7 if they are at the very top
In their first year maybe (even leaving judges to one side)
As a barrister’s level of experience grows, so their clients and cases will increase in value: a barrister with five years’ experience may expect to earn a salary between £50,000 and £200,000, while wages for those with 10 or more years’ experience might range from around £65,000 to over £1 million.
Notice you use the word barrister rather than noting their practice area which is far more important. Most criminal barristers are on about £15k as pupils their commercial counterparts on about £50k and even if criminal barristers do earn around £65k after a decade or two once you take into account chamber's fees and costume hire and travel costs etc it is nothing like that. Most legal aid barristers will never reach that level anyway. It is only the commercial barristers who really make millions at the Bar
I didn't use anything of the sort, I quoted from an article written on the subject of barrister's salaries. I think you would call black a type of white if you thought you could make an argument out of it.
That is precisely what you did, comparing legal aid barristers to top commercial and chancery barristers is ridiculous. While commercial pupils are often paid more than £60,000 in their first years of practice the median salary for all criminal barristers is £56,000. Once travel costs and clerks' fees are included some criminal barristers are on less in real terms than the London living wage. By contrast, for example, top commercial silk Jonathan Sumption received £5 million in 2012 when he was acting for Roman Abramovich before his elevation to the Supreme Court
Sorry just catching up. Re:Tradesmen's earnings versus the graduate premium, unless one is academically very gifted (i.e. about 10% f the young people university would seem a very bad deal compared to taking up a skilled trade).
I have just had the final bill from the chap who ripped out the old and put in a new bathroom - £4,220 for two week's work, that is labour only, materials plus, tiles, fittings etc were in addition. How many people, graduates or otherwise, earn £2,000 a week? The bloke concerned is a graduate and used to work installing and maintaining flight simulators for CAe, he switched to a job that earns him more and allows him to spend more time at home with wife and family. He doesn't advertise, but is now booked solid until mid-January 2017.
The fellow I found, after months of searching, to repoint one corner of the house (five days work at £300 a day) has now pulled out, better money on offer elsewhere. The qualified plumber we had in to re-jig the hot water system prior to the new bathroom, £400 a day. Electricians cost about the same is you can get one (fellow at the pub runs a spark's business, and is run off his feet, cannot recruit enough qualified people and, get this, can't find youngsters to take on as apprentices).
Graduate premium, my bottom. Ok, a sparks is a sparks, a plumber a plumber and there is no career ladder to climb. But at 2 grand a week who would worry.
Most plumbers are on mid £20k or a little above, of course the more people train as plumbers and electricians the less demand there will be for them and the few who are very highly paid will diminish rapidly
Source please ? With special reference to your use of the word "most"
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
If you have the grades to be a city lawyer, commercial barrister, investment banker, GP or surgeon, or engineer and study a subject related to those professions eg law, medicine, economics, engineering etc then it makes sense to go to university, that university most probably being Oxbridge or another Russell Group institution. If you scraped a few Cs and Ds at A Level and are offered the chance of an apprenticeship or learning a trade rather than going to a lower ranked university and getting into debt then the former may be more sensible but ultimately it is your choice
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
My only objection is - most people evidently think the same! Needless to say university is not even primarily about earning more, and there are big advantages. It allows people to think deeply about interesting topics (possible too in some trades). It is pleasant.
I would also like to hear the opinions of PB people who work in trades as electricians, plumbers, etc. about why the grass is greener, to supplement the opinions of graduates. I wonder if the proportion of PB people in trades versus graduates is useful to think about in this context. Does it signify anything?
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Some universities in the US.
Global Times Higher Educational Rankings currently puts Oxford second (which casts doubt on the system, bluntly) behind the California institute of Technology (which doesn't inspire confidence either). Stanford is third, followed by Cambridge. Fees for those two, plus the eight big Ivy League institutions, are usually vaguely akin to extortionate. Tuition fees for Harvard Law School, for example, are $59,550 this year, although some courses appear to ask for nearer $40,000. These would have to be paid upfront unless you had a scholarship. Unless you are totally minted, that is simply not worth it.
Incidentally, don't get too carried away with the Russell Group as undergraduate providers. There are issues surrounding the quality of teaching in those institutions, for the very simple reason that academics are hired to research rather than teach. Although their graduates tend to be able, remember that they only select able ones in the first place so it is sometimes a case of garbage in, garbage out (not that they are garbage, but you get my meaning)!
With some students who are good but not brilliant, I advise doing a first degree at a different university and then a Masters at the Russell Group later when they have developed the necessary skills. Moreover, a masters is becoming the new baccalaureate so that is to their further advantage.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Some universities in the US.
Global Times Higher Educational Rankings currently puts Oxford second (which casts doubt on the system, bluntly) behind the California institute of Technology (which doesn't inspire confidence either). Stanford is third, followed by Cambridge. Fees for those two, plus the eight big Ivy League institutions, are usually vaguely akin to extortionate. Tuition fees for Harvard Law School, for example, are $59,550 this year, although some courses appear to ask for nearer $40,000. These would have to be paid upfront unless you had a scholarship. Unless you are totally minted, that is simply not worth it.
Incidentally, don't get too carried away with the Russell Group as undergraduate providers. There are issues surrounding the quality of teaching in those institutions, for the very simple reason that academics are hired to research rather than teach. Although their graduates tend to be able, remember that they only select able ones in the first place so it is sometimes a case of garbage in, garbage out (not that they are garbage, but you get my meaning)!
With some students who are good but not brilliant, I advise doing a first degree at a different university and then a Masters at the Russell Group later when they have developed the necessary skills. Moreover, a masters is becoming the new baccalaureate so that is to their further advantage.
Most Ivy League schools have significant scholarships though and if you go to Harvard Law School you will probably soon be working for a Wall Street law firm and making a small fortune so it more than pays off
Most Ivy League schools have significant scholarships though and if you go to Harvard Law School you will probably soon be working for a Wall Street law firm and making a small fortune so it more than pays off
If you can get your green card - bearing in mind we are talking about British students here.
Dr. Prasannan, wasn't the ban overturned on appeal? Also, Armitstead doesn't come from a country found to have run state-sponsored doping of athletes.
So missing three [ not one, not two, but three ] tests is OK then ?
One of the missed tests was the fault of UKAD though, that's why CAS ruled in her favour. She also volunteered for a test the following day after they buggered up. Again a reason why CAS ruled in her favour. Even the third missed test was down to UKAD being overly harsh.
Dr. Prasannan, wasn't the ban overturned on appeal? Also, Armitstead doesn't come from a country found to have run state-sponsored doping of athletes.
So missing three [ not one, not two, but three ] tests is OK then ?
One of the missed tests was the fault of UKAD though, that's why CAS ruled in her favour. She also volunteered for a test the following day after they buggered up. Again a reason why CAS ruled in her favour. Even the third missed test was down to UKAD being overly harsh.
But Isinbayeva who never failed a test, either in Russia or abroad , cannot compete.
Most Ivy League schools have significant scholarships though and if you go to Harvard Law School you will probably soon be working for a Wall Street law firm and making a small fortune so it more than pays off
If you can get your green card - bearing in mind we are talking about British students here.
Indeed but if you have a Harvard Law degree and a role at a top Manhattan law firm then a green card should not be a major problem
Dr. Prasannan, wasn't the ban overturned on appeal? Also, Armitstead doesn't come from a country found to have run state-sponsored doping of athletes.
So missing three [ not one, not two, but three ] tests is OK then ?
One of the missed tests was the fault of UKAD though, that's why CAS ruled in her favour. She also volunteered for a test the following day after they buggered up. Again a reason why CAS ruled in her favour. Even the third missed test was down to UKAD being overly harsh.
But Isinbayeva who never failed a test, either in Russia or abroad , cannot compete.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I'm intrigued. What universities are better than the Russell Group?
Some universities in the US.
Global Times Higher Educational Rankings currently puts Oxford second (which casts doubt on the system, bluntly) behind the California institute of Technology (which doesn't inspire confidence either). Stanford is third, followed by Cambridge. Fees for those two, plus the eight big Ivy League institutions, are usually vaguely akin to extortionate. Tuition fees for Harvard Law School, for example, are $59,550 this year, although some courses appear to ask for nearer $40,000. These would have to be paid upfront unless you had a scholarship. Unless you are totally minted, that is simply not worth it.
Incidentally, don't get too carried away with the Russell Group as undergraduate providers. There are issues surrounding the quality of teaching in those institutions, for the very simple reason that academics are hired to research rather than teach. Although their graduates tend to be able, remember that they only select able ones in the first place so it is sometimes a case of garbage in, garbage out (not that they are garbage, but you get my meaning)!
With some students who are good but not brilliant, I advise doing a first degree at a different university and then a Masters at the Russell Group later when they have developed the necessary skills. Moreover, a masters is becoming the new baccalaureate so that is to their further advantage.
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Most Ivy League schools have significant scholarships though and if you go to Harvard Law School you will probably soon be working for a Wall Street law firm and making a small fortune so it more than pays off
If you can get your green card - bearing in mind we are talking about British students here.
Indeed but if you have a Harvard Law degree and a role at a top Manhattan law firm then a green card should not be a major problem
The combination of money and knowledge of immigration law is a good headstart!
Sorry just catching up. Re:Tradesmen's earnings versus the graduate premium, unless one is academically very gifted (i.e. about 10% f the young people university would seem a very bad deal compared to taking up a skilled trade).
I have just had the final bill from the chap who ripped out the old and put in a new bathroom - £4,220 for two week's work, that is labour only, materials plus, tiles, fittings etc were in addition. How many people, graduates or otherwise, earn £2,000 a week? The bloke concerned is a graduate and used to work installing and maintaining flight simulators for CAe, he switched to a job that earns him more and allows him to spend more time at home with wife and family. He doesn't advertise, but is now booked solid until mid-January 2017.
The fellow I found, after months of searching, to repoint one corner of the house (five days work at £300 a day) has now pulled out, better money on offer elsewhere. The qualified plumber we had in to re-jig the hot water system prior to the new bathroom, £400 a day. Electricians cost about the same is you can get one (fellow at the pub runs a spark's business, and is run off his feet, cannot recruit enough qualified people and, get this, can't find youngsters to take on as apprentices).
Graduate premium, my bottom. Ok, a sparks is a sparks, a plumber a plumber and there is no career ladder to climb. But at 2 grand a week who would worry.
Most plumbers are on mid £20k or a little above, of course the more people train as plumbers and electricians the less demand there will be for them and the few who are very highly paid will diminish rapidly
Source please ? With special reference to your use of the word "most"
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Mirrors my experience in History. I didn't even have fixed lecturing hours written in my contract (it was covered by 'other reasonable duties...) but it said definitely that I should produce a minimum of one book every four years. And that wasn't even Russell Group!
Which is why it is rather a clever idea to link tuition fees to the quality of teaching, although how that will be monitored I have no idea!
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Mirrors my experience in History. I didn't even have fixed lecturing hours written in my contract (it was covered by 'other reasonable duties...) but it said definitely that I should produce a minimum of one book every four years. And that wasn't even Russell Group!
Which is why it is rather a clever idea to link tuition fees to the quality of teaching, although how that will be monitored I have no idea!
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
I think we can all agree that PB progeny are just the types to benefit from a university education. Other people's kids, not so much.
One of my kids went to uni, if I can dignify it with the name, the other thought it a waste of time so didn't bother. I'll confess to being a snob; if it's not Russell group or better, it's likely to be a waste of time - though there are a few honourable exceptions.
Hull?
Falmouth .
atleast it wasn't Westminster
Most of the senior managers in my office went to distinctly second rate universities - Huddersfield, Central England, Coventry - but they all did technical/vocational degrees which got them the sort of job they wanted. The right course at a less exalted university can be better than the wrong course at a Russell Group.
Most Ivy League schools have significant scholarships though and if you go to Harvard Law School you will probably soon be working for a Wall Street law firm and making a small fortune so it more than pays off
If you can get your green card - bearing in mind we are talking about British students here.
Indeed but if you have a Harvard Law degree and a role at a top Manhattan law firm then a green card should not be a major problem
The combination of money and knowledge of immigration law is a good headstart!
I was always told to just get a degree, any degree. So I got a joint honours in a modern language and a social science. I now work in a junior management/ analytical role in the health service and not really enjoying it. I wish I had worked out what career I wanted first then worked backwards from there. Of course for most of my degree course and several years after, I was planning on working as a translator for the EU....
Sorry just catching up. Re:Tradesmen's earnings versus the graduate premium, unless one is academically very gifted (i.e. about 10% f the young people university would seem a very bad deal compared to taking up a skilled trade).
I have just had the final bill from the chap who ripped out the old and put in a new bathroom - £4,220 for two week's work, that is labour only, materials plus, tiles, fittings etc were in addition. How many people, graduates or otherwise, earn £2,000 a week? The bloke concerned is a graduate and used to work installing and maintaining flight simulators for CAe, he switched to a job that earns him more and allows him to spend more time at home with wife and family. He doesn't advertise, but is now booked solid until mid-January 2017.
The fellow I found, after months of searching, to repoint one corner of the house (five days work at £300 a day) has now pulled out, better money on offer elsewhere. The qualified plumber we had in to re-jig the hot water system prior to the new bathroom, £400 a day. Electricians cost about the same is you can get one (fellow at the pub runs a spark's business, and is run off his feet, cannot recruit enough qualified people and, get this, can't find youngsters to take on as apprentices).
Graduate premium, my bottom. Ok, a sparks is a sparks, a plumber a plumber and there is no career ladder to climb. But at 2 grand a week who would worry.
Most plumbers are on mid £20k or a little above, of course the more people train as plumbers and electricians the less demand there will be for them and the few who are very highly paid will diminish rapidly
Source please ? With special reference to your use of the word "most"
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
However, many unis are now encouraging (even requiring?) lecturers to undertake the Postgraduate Diploma in Learning and Teaching in Higher Education.
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
You don't even need the doctorate! I taught with just an MA for two years at one point.
My feelings on it are rather mixed. I like researching, and I like teaching, and I liked the social aspects of travelling and meeting people all over the world and being paid for it. At the same time, I became increasingly disillusioned with the utter pointlessness of a lot of what we were doing to get on in our careers (I think the nadir was a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores who had built a career on looking at how pictures were used in adverts in the 1960s - what use was that to anybody except him?) and I became increasingly frustrated at the huge numbers of students we were expected to take, teach with a light touch and churn out as graduates solely for the sake of the money they brought in. Job insecurity didn't help either. So in the end I left and entered proper teaching.
I don't say that I will never go back to academia. I may do, at some point, if I can. But I do say there will have to be pretty radical changes before it will be a good, rewarding career, and particularly there will need to be some hard thinking on this teaching/research (im)balance.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
However, many unis are now encouraging (even requiring?) lecturers to undertake the Postgraduate Diploma in Learning and Teaching in Higher Education.
Yes, but that's meaningless. It simply requires you to prove you have taught a certain number of different modules within a certain time (or at least, it did in Wales). It's a bit like those PhD student 'teaching excellence' awards which anyone can get on application and therefore everyone got.
It bears about as much resemblance to the PGCE for teaching as a paddling pool does to the Caspian Sea.
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
You don't even need the doctorate! I taught with just an MA for two years at one point.
My feelings on it are rather mixed. I like researching, and I like teaching, and I liked the social aspects of travelling and meeting people all over the world and being paid for it. At the same time, I became increasingly disillusioned with the utter pointlessness of a lot of what we were doing to get on in our careers (I think the nadir was a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores who had built a career on looking at how pictures were used in adverts in the 1960s - what use was that to anybody except him?) and I became increasingly frustrated at the huge numbers of students we were expected to take, teach with a light touch and churn out as graduates solely for the sake of the money they brought in. Job insecurity didn't help either. So in the end I left and entered proper teaching.
I don't say that I will never go back to academia. I may do, at some point, if I can. But I do say there will have to be pretty radical changes before it will be a good, rewarding career, and particularly there will need to be some hard thinking on this teaching/research (im)balance.
"I think the nadir was a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores who had built a career on looking at how pictures were used in adverts in the 1960s - what use was that to anybody except him?"
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I worked in a University Medical School for a while. Research was the only way to progress as an Academic. Teaching Undergraduate Medical Students counted for very little, despite that being the ostensible reason for the institution. Are good researchers also good teachers? Sometimes perhaps but the correlation is poor.
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Yeah universities are weird when it comes to teaching. To teach in a primary/secondary school you have to be qualified. To teach an undergraduate course at university requires literally no professional qualifications (a PhD isn't training you to teach)!
You don't even need the doctorate! I taught with just an MA for two years at one point.
My feelings on it are rather mixed. I like researching, and I like teaching, and I liked the social aspects of travelling and meeting people all over the world and being paid for it. At the same time, I became increasingly disillusioned with the utter pointlessness of a lot of what we were doing to get on in our careers (I think the nadir was a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores who had built a career on looking at how pictures were used in adverts in the 1960s - what use was that to anybody except him?) and I became increasingly frustrated at the huge numbers of students we were expected to take, teach with a light touch and churn out as graduates solely for the sake of the money they brought in. Job insecurity didn't help either. So in the end I left and entered proper teaching.
I don't say that I will never go back to academia. I may do, at some point, if I can. But I do say there will have to be pretty radical changes before it will be a good, rewarding career, and particularly there will need to be some hard thinking on this teaching/research (im)balance.
I feel like that already and I'm barely 30
Here's hoping for an job at a research institute where there is a lot less focus on teaching.
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
Dr. Prasannan, wasn't the ban overturned on appeal? Also, Armitstead doesn't come from a country found to have run state-sponsored doping of athletes.
So missing three [ not one, not two, but three ] tests is OK then ?
One of the missed tests was the fault of UKAD though, that's why CAS ruled in her favour. She also volunteered for a test the following day after they buggered up. Again a reason why CAS ruled in her favour. Even the third missed test was down to UKAD being overly harsh.
But Isinbayeva who never failed a test, either in Russia or abroad , cannot compete.
It would be good if Gatlin wins the gold in 100m.
Don't joke about Gatlin, the USA has a dark history of individual coaches doing this and their sprint team is questionable. Isinbayeva should have had all her other compatriots banned; unless the state doping by Russia is punished by all Olympic sports then these people will continue to divide and rule.
If Armitstead had wilfully missed three tests she should have had a twelve month ban, but she didn't, questions to answer and I hope the details are all laid out in public. Those trying to claim some equivalence between what Russia did and other countries are way off beam. It has some equivalence with China and US sprinting but places like the UK are nowhere near.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
Have you looked at the possibilities within NHS management?
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
I was thinking of teachers who run PGCE courses or supervise placements. Is their evidence that they are better at the coalface teaching themselves?
@JohnyHelzapopin: @JohnyHelzapopin Canoe/Kayak all non essential to industry boats are Tory, also cultural appropriation from Native Americans, über Tory
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
@JohnyHelzapopin: @JohnyHelzapopin Canoe/Kayak all non essential to industry boats are Tory, also cultural appropriation from Native Americans, über Tory
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
I was thinking of teachers who run PGCE courses or supervise placements. Is their evidence that they are better at the coalface teaching themselves?
PGCE course teachers do not do any teaching, as a general rule. I am not sure about those who run school-centred teaching courses, but I would guess nobody has done any research. However, bearing in mind they would only have 1 student and would spend on average 1 hour a week working with them, I doubt it would have much impact.
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
I was thinking of teachers who run PGCE courses or supervise placements. Is their evidence that they are better at the coalface teaching themselves?
PGCE course teachers do not do any teaching, as a general rule. I am not sure about those who run school-centred teaching courses, but I would guess nobody has done any research. However, bearing in mind they would only have 1 student and would spend on average 1 hour a week working with them, I doubt it would have much impact.
Medical Postgraduate training is in many ways more like an apprenticeship, rather than a classroom experience. It is often one to one and based around specific skills and tasks. It is particularly satisfying as a result.
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
I was thinking of teachers who run PGCE courses or supervise placements. Is their evidence that they are better at the coalface teaching themselves?
PGCE course teachers do not do any teaching, as a general rule. I am not sure about those who run school-centred teaching courses, but I would guess nobody has done any research. However, bearing in mind they would only have 1 student and would spend on average 1 hour a week working with them, I doubt it would have much impact.
Medical Postgraduate training is in many ways more like an apprenticeship, rather than a classroom experience. It is often one to one and based around specific skills and tasks. It is particularly satisfying as a result.
Sounds very different from teacher training. Maybe that's why it's very satisfying and teacher training is an absolute shambles.
@jessicaelgot: Corbyn camp also claiming "senior GMB political officers close to Watson and Smith pulled strings to block off access for our campaign" 1/2
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
My son Scott was too stupid to go to university but he's getting really well paid now for posting political comments on the internet.
His current contract is with the EU Department Of Eternal Truth and he's making a mint spreading their messages. All he has to do is ignore his own low feelings of self-worth and downplay any residual personal integrity.
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
I have no idea. My immediate answer however would be that I don't think the situation is comparable. Teachers tend not to mix teaching with other aspects (e.g. medical research) because of the punishing hours involved, although I appreciate that is very true of medicine as well!
I was thinking of teachers who run PGCE courses or supervise placements. Is their evidence that they are better at the coalface teaching themselves?
PGCE course teachers do not do any teaching, as a general rule. I am not sure about those who run school-centred teaching courses, but I would guess nobody has done any research. However, bearing in mind they would only have 1 student and would spend on average 1 hour a week working with them, I doubt it would have much impact.
Medical Postgraduate training is in many ways more like an apprenticeship, rather than a classroom experience. It is often one to one and based around specific skills and tasks. It is particularly satisfying as a result.
Sounds very different from teacher training. Maybe that's why it's very satisfying and teacher training is an absolute shambles.
The educationalists try to wreck it on a regular basis!
The educationalists try to wreck it on a regular basis!
Keep them away. It's bad enough the damage they've done in education, I don't want them anywhere near somebody who has to make literally life or death decisions.
The torrent of stupidity flowing from the Labour Party is reaching dangerous levels
@andrewspoooner: Momentum & Corbynistas are now OPPOSED to minimum threshold turnouts in Trade Union ballots. EXACTLY same as Tories https://t.co/aj3VKfHrzD
In a similar vein real estate mogul Barabara Corcoran, who's backing Hillary, said this:
- He's probably one of the most powerful and effective salespeople I've ever met in my life, but the tail end to that is that you can't count on whatever he's saying.
- So what's the bottom line. Who do you think will win?
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
Have you looked at the possibilities within NHS management?
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
Have you looked at the possibilities within NHS management?
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I
Will inbox you
I would shred your CV just for using that hideous phrase.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
Have you looked at the possibilities within NHS management?
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I
Will inbox you
I would shred your CV just for using that hideous phrase.
Yeah, I've resisted it for some time but it has become ubiquitous on social media.
I'm about to start my 30s and considering a career change but not sure where to go. I could become a teacher but it's the complicated bits of language learning that appeal to me. I would love teaching undergraduates but like other commenters it seems to be all about research.
Have you looked at the possibilities within NHS management?
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I
Will inbox you
I would shred your CV just for using that hideous phrase.
Yeah, I've resisted it for some time but it has become ubiquitous on social media.
That's no excuse!
Hideous phrase aside; I wish you the very best of luck in whatever choices you make.
Anyone on PB have kids they told to go into a trade instead of going to university? What was the outcome?
My son Scott was too stupid to go to university but he's getting really well paid now for posting political comments on the internet.
His current contract is with the EU Department Of Eternal Truth and he's making a mint spreading their messages. All he has to do is ignore his own low feelings of self-worth and downplay any residual personal integrity.
Yes, the lack of hay bales on the most dangerous part of the cycling road race to fill in the death trap gutters was quite telling too. This olympics has been piss poor from an organisational viewpoint.
Comments
https://www.ft.com/content/ae4f4472-76f9-11e3-807e-00144feabdc0
http://www.totaljobs.com/salary-checker/average-plumber-salary-london
The median London wage is £33,000
I would also like to hear the opinions of PB people who work in trades as electricians, plumbers, etc. about why the grass is greener, to supplement the opinions of graduates. I wonder if the proportion of PB people in trades versus graduates is useful to think about in this context. Does it signify anything?
Incidentally, don't get too carried away with the Russell Group as undergraduate providers. There are issues surrounding the quality of teaching in those institutions, for the very simple reason that academics are hired to research rather than teach. Although their graduates tend to be able, remember that they only select able ones in the first place so it is sometimes a case of garbage in, garbage out (not that they are garbage, but you get my meaning)!
With some students who are good but not brilliant, I advise doing a first degree at a different university and then a Masters at the Russell Group later when they have developed the necessary skills. Moreover, a masters is becoming the new baccalaureate so that is to their further advantage.
It would be good if Gatlin wins the gold in 100m.
Should they blame it on Tory cuts or Brexit? Choices, choices.........
Indeed part of the reason I moved to an NHS post in a University Hospital was that I wanted to teach rather than research.
Fox jr went to UEA rather than a Russell group Uni precisely because the feedback on teaching was so good for his subject.
Which is why it is rather a clever idea to link tuition fees to the quality of teaching, although how that will be monitored I have no idea!
Of course for most of my degree course and several years after, I was planning on working as a translator for the EU....
I don't say that I will never go back to academia. I may do, at some point, if I can. But I do say there will have to be pretty radical changes before it will be a good, rewarding career, and particularly there will need to be some hard thinking on this teaching/research (im)balance.
It bears about as much resemblance to the PGCE for teaching as a paddling pool does to the Caspian Sea.
Madmen script writers?
I enjoy teaching (though have a certain scepticism of much modern educationalist theory) and have a post-graduate qualification in medical education. I learn a lot from my students, particularly the postgraduate ones. It keeps me on the ball dealing with intelligent questions. There is some research that shows that medical teachers are better clinicians for this reason. Does the same go in teaching?
Here's hoping for an job at a research institute where there is a lot less focus on teaching.
Man, that guy has done some serious bowling!
If Armitstead had wilfully missed three tests she should have had a twelve month ban, but she didn't, questions to answer and I hope the details are all laid out in public. Those trying to claim some equivalence between what Russia did and other countries are way off beam. It has some equivalence with China and US sprinting but places like the UK are nowhere near.
Starting to crank into gear now...
There is a recognition that NHS needs a better training structure and I know people who have been positive on some of these courses:
http://www.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/programmes/programme-guide-2016/
Frankly the quality of NHS management is pretty poor so it is fairly easy to progress if you have any talent at all! I recently interviewed for a Band 8a General Manager so can vouch for the truth of this.
I
@JohnyHelzapopin: @JohnyHelzapopin Canoe/Kayak all non essential to industry boats are Tory, also cultural appropriation from Native Americans, über Tory
@jessicaelgot: Corbyn camp also claiming "senior GMB political officers close to Watson and Smith pulled strings to block off access for our campaign" 1/2
ROFLMAO
His current contract is with the EU Department Of Eternal Truth and he's making a mint spreading their messages. All he has to do is ignore his own low feelings of self-worth and downplay any residual personal integrity.
Sadly my degree would mean I am overqualified to apply.
Bummer...
Clinton 52 .. Trump 37 - LV
Clinton 46 .. Trump 36 - RV
https://law.marquette.edu/poll/
@andrewspoooner: Momentum & Corbynistas are now OPPOSED to minimum threshold turnouts in Trade Union ballots. EXACTLY same as Tories https://t.co/aj3VKfHrzD
- He's probably one of the most powerful and effective salespeople I've ever met in my life, but the tail end to that is that you can't count on whatever he's saying.
- So what's the bottom line. Who do you think will win?
- Donald Trump will win. Not a doubt in my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5oTjuYOvc
@JohnyHelzapopin: @JohnyHelzapopin Judo, more fighting, not Tory on the no cowards rule
Hideous phrase aside; I wish you the very best of luck in whatever choices you make.
Also, news of a police operation underway at Disneyland Paris on social media. Not got much else ATM.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/trump-lies/
Tickling ladies during sex is romantic (8)
People can die in lots of unexpected ways, even just driving home.
http://news.sky.com/story/four-dead-as-lorries-and-cars-crash-on-a34-10531168
/TSE-mode = on
checks medal table
sees we are 9th
*cries*
realises we are ahead of France
*smiles*