I reckon the simplest solution to this whole thing would be:
Brexiteers get to have the shiny black passports, real gold plating on the front, a slightly inconvienent oversize - but doubtless a feeling of "sovereignty". It says Great Britain, no mention of the EU anywhere.
I reckon the simplest solution to this whole thing would be:
Brexiteers get to have the shiny black passports, real gold plating on the front, a slightly inconvienent oversize - but doubtless a feeling of "sovereignty". It says Great Britain, no mention of the EU anywhere.
I reckon the simplest solution to this whole thing would be:
Brexiteers get to have the shiny black passports, real gold plating on the front, a slightly inconvienent oversize - but doubtless a feeling of "sovereignty". It says Great Britain, no mention of the EU anywhere.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
But no NHS, Education, Police etc. coverage unless you did vote for the winning team.
It kinda destroys the idea of ballot secrecy.
So does the premise of this thread
If things go badly in the next couple of years, I think we can be sure than public recollection will be people voted 70-30 Remain.
And if things go well that ratio will be reversed. That's human nature.
Didn't Sir Ian Botham once say something along the lines of - more people claim that they saw him at Headlingley in 1981 than the actual capacity of the ground?
No doubt he did. And I agree, if things go well, plenty of people will remember voting the right way, although unless Europe simultaneously goes to the pot, I think the proportion will not be as many.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
But no NHS, Education, Police etc. coverage unless you did vote for the winning team.
It kinda destroys the idea of ballot secrecy.
So does the premise of this thread
If things go badly in the next couple of years, I think we can be sure than public recollection will be people voted 70-30 Remain.
I was speaking to a psephologist last week, he cheerily pointed out that in a decade's time, there will be more people alive that voted Remain than voted Leave.
Well, there's your pretext for a revote right there.
Alas no, we voted to Leave, we're Leaving. No Turning Back, and rejoining the EU in the future is a no no, as we'd have to sign up for the single currency, Schengen, and no rebate.
That's no reason not to go back in. The gross payment is only £18 billion a year. That's 2.2% of government spending.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
But no NHS, Education, Police etc. coverage unless you did vote for the winning team.
It kinda destroys the idea of ballot secrecy.
So does the premise of this thread
If things go badly in the next couple of years, I think we can be sure than public recollection will be people voted 70-30 Remain.
I was speaking to a psephologist last week, he cheerily pointed out that in a decade's time, there will be more people alive that voted Remain than voted Leave.
Well, there's your pretext for a revote right there.
Alas no, we voted to Leave, we're Leaving. No Turning Back, and rejoining the EU in the future is a no no, as we'd have to sign up for the single currency, Schengen, and no rebate.
That's no reason not to go back in. The gross payment is only £18 billion a year. That's 2.2% of government spending.
It's not such much as the lack of rebate, it's signing up to the single currency, I cannot foresee any circumstances where it is in the UK's long term interests to join the Euro.
Why arent you on Daves honour list ?
I was offered a GCMG, but since they didn't give JohnO a peerage, I declined any honour in protest.
When George Osborne becomes PM in a few years time, I'm sure he'll give me the GCMG I've always craved/
GCMG - Don’t you have to first kill a dragon or something to qualify…?
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
But no NHS, Education, Police etc. coverage unless you did vote for the winning team.
It kinda destroys the idea of ballot secrecy.
So does the premise of this thread
If things go badly in the next couple of years, I think we can be sure than public recollection will be people voted 70-30 Remain.
I was speaking to a psephologist last week, he cheerily pointed out that in a decade's time, there will be more people alive that voted Remain than voted Leave.
Well, there's your pretext for a revote right there.
Alas no, we voted to Leave, we're Leaving. No Turning Back, and rejoining the EU in the future is a no no, as we'd have to sign up for the single currency, Schengen, and no rebate.
That's no reason not to go back in. The gross payment is only £18 billion a year. That's 2.2% of government spending.
It's not such much as the lack of rebate, it's signing up to the single currency, I cannot foresee any circumstances where it is in the UK's long term interests to join the Euro.
Why arent you on Daves honour list ?
I was offered a GCMG, but since they didn't give JohnO a peerage, I declined any honour in protest.
When George Osborne becomes PM in a few years time, I'm sure he'll give me the GCMG I've always craved/
GCMC - Don’t you have to first kill a dragon or something to qualify…?
From the FOAK, It is at present awarded to men and women who hold high office or who render extraordinary or important non-military service in a foreign country, and can also be conferred for important or loyal service in relation to foreign and Commonwealth affairs.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
But no NHS, Education, Police etc. coverage unless you did vote for the winning team.
It kinda destroys the idea of ballot secrecy.
So does the premise of this thread
If things go badly in the next couple of years, I think we can be sure than public recollection will be people voted 70-30 Remain.
I was speaking to a psephologist last week, he cheerily pointed out that in a decade's time, there will be more people alive that voted Remain than voted Leave.
Well, there's your pretext for a revote right there.
Alas no, we voted to Leave, we're Leaving. No Turning Back, and rejoining the EU in the future is a no no, as we'd have to sign up for the single currency, Schengen, and no rebate.
That's no reason not to go back in. The gross payment is only £18 billion a year. That's 2.2% of government spending.
I can't tell if that's a spoof
I've always been very clear that I thought both campaigns were lamentably bad. There are odd folk on here - I'm one of them .
I was sad to have the EUref in 2016 because the economy has been weakening for a couple of years, so it wasn't really the right time. However, we weren't going to get another opportunity.
The cost of EU membership is literally chump change. It's 1% of GDP. However, people get hung up on symbols, so there you have it. The delta between our debt servicing costs at the start and end of this parliament is £21 billion p.a. Don't hear people squeaking about that.
There's an argument that we should have gone balls deep into Europe, shouldered France aside and created a real London-Berlin axis. That could have been fantastic.
The reasons for my Leave vote were idiosyncratic. Probably not alone in that.
I was offered a GCMG, but since they didn't give JohnO a peerage, I declined any honour in protest.
When George Osborne becomes PM in a few years time, I'm sure he'll give me the GCMG I've always craved.
GCMG = George Cant Manage Goatshit ?
An appropriate award from our failed CoE
Tsk, have you never watched Yes Minister?
The Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, which is shortened to GCMG, which stands for God Calls Me God.
well I hope youve given up on your Brexit sulking and have gone back to being your more scumbag self.
I'm looking forward to Brexit, it is exciting, if we make a success of it, we'll be able to lord it over the French, what's not to love?
I doubt we get to Lord it over the french but the Germans undoubtedly will now that there's no-one else to gang up against them . ( the other 26 counties are basically scared ),
So its buy popcorn and see how long France will hold out being Germany's plaything. How low does the humiliation barrier actually have to go ?
With of course the occasional french tantrum directed aginst us for leaving them in a predicament of their own choosing.
I am a Remainer and I certainly want to touch a freedom of movement and single market deal with more than a bargepole. All the polling shows a majority of voters want to stay in the Single Market and while they want control of freedom of movement they do not want to end it completely. It would be a disaster to allow the 25 to 30% of the country i.e. the most hardcore Leavers, to dictate to the rest of the country at huge economic cost to the rest of us and they must be fought every step of the way on this. If many of them go to UKIP in a huff then so be it. The fact that May rather than Leadsom became PM suggests a deal will be done
Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
"Brexit may be costly but is a price worth paying" "So are you willing to pay the price?" "REMAINER TRAITOR!!! I meant other people should pay, I should get a medal!"
Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
The biggest risk is surely the housing market. Yes, a fall in house prices would be welcomed by many, but our banks would be in big trouble.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
The biggest risk is surely the housing market. Yes, a fall in house prices would be welcomed by many, but our banks would be in big trouble.
I'll refer you to the latest financial stability report. Have a butchers at page 5 which details the 2014 stress tests. Our banks are even better capitalised now. There's nothing to worry about, unless you think the BoE is lying.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
I can see not including a winking emoji really did not make the ironic intent clear.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
Tacit support from remainers will be needed to secure such a deal, but it is indeed on the leavers who want it to really push for it. I don't think May wants that enough to take on that fight, frankly.
Theoretically it could be possible to do this, just impose a new super tax on bingo halls, working mens' clubs and greyhound racing tracks, double VAT at Lidl and Asda stores and for SAGA holiday bookings and any trips to Blackpool and Benidorm, link pension rises to increases in Labour's poll rating, double petrol duty in non urban areas and impose a special annual levy on all Sunderland and West Ham fans
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
The biggest risk is surely the housing market. Yes, a fall in house prices would be welcomed by many, but our banks would be in big trouble.
I'll refer you to the latest financial stability report. Have a butchers at page 5 which details the 2014 stress tests. Our banks are even better capitalised now. There's nothing to worry about, unless you think the BoE is lying.
If long-term economic benefits to leaving materialise, as I think and hope they will, can we Leavers get all the benefit? Income taxes on the poorest but not the middle classes can be cut along with VAT; invest in the Northern Powerhouse and coastal defences in Essex but sod more money for the Tube, those Remain traitors in London can be crammed in like sardines for all we care; spend more on the NHS (disproportionately used by the working-class elderly) but keep tuition fees creeping up, no respite for those Remainiac students.
Presumably we'd keep punishing/rewarding the relevant demographics long after people who actually voted on 23/06/16 have aged or moved up in social class, etc. Or of course we could move forwards as a country that works for the 52% and the 48%.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
No self-pity. Monstering the foreigners worked, fine. So do a deal to let them in, but don't expect REMAINers to die on a cross for hedge fund types.
Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
The biggest risk is surely the housing market. Yes, a fall in house prices would be welcomed by many, but our banks would be in big trouble.
I'll refer you to the latest financial stability report. Have a butchers at page 5 which details the 2014 stress tests. Our banks are even better capitalised now. There's nothing to worry about, unless you think the BoE is lying.
Interesting. It makes the rate cut and QE all the more perplexing.
It's sentiment and confidence that count at the moment. As we see from the header's extended fit of petulance, a good chunk of the populace are feeling extremely upset, as are large swathes of the business community.
While I'm dubious that a country as large as the UK can talk itself into a recession, we're bound to see a drop in demand even though nothing has actually happened per se. The BoE has done what it feels necessary to counter that.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
May has said she wants 'free movement controls' which could even just include a temporary break, unlike Leadsom she never said she wanted to end free movement or leave the single market
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
May will certainly not want to take on half the banks and law firms in the City threatening to move their HQs to Paris or Frankfurt if we leave the single market, companies threatening to move factories to the continent not to mention the majority of voters who do not want to leave the single market either
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
May has said she wants 'free movement controls' which could even just include a temporary break, unlike Leadsom she never said she wanted to end free movement or leave the single market
Leadsom wanted to guide us to the sunlit uplands. Maybe Remainers were too harsh when they said the other side didn't have a plan.
The general thrust (that Brexiters should bear the brunt of Brexit) is somewhat undemocratic and silly. And if Brexit is a roaring success does it mean that Remainers are left out of the bonanza?? I would agree that there can be no guarantees that EU-funded programmes will continue - each should be decided on its merits, as befits any payments from the public purse - but there should be no pettiness.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
No self-pity. Monstering the foreigners worked, fine. So do a deal to let them in, but don't expect REMAINers to die on a cross for hedge fund types.
Honestly @EPG I don't understand your point. We're all collectively out of the loop now. It's down to Her Majesty's Government. We were asked a question, provided an answer and Mrs May will proceed accordingly.
All that remains to be seen is what proportion of the population is going to be unhappy with the result. I don't see that anyone is being asked to do anything for anyone else.
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
May has said she wants 'free movement controls' which could even just include a temporary break, unlike Leadsom she never said she wanted to end free movement or leave the single market
Leadsom wanted to guide us to the sunlit uplands. Maybe Remainers were too harsh when they said the other side didn't have a plan.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Yes that's true, it applies to all at the time. If it later transpires that a further contrary decision is made then the previous one ceases to apply (e.g. 1975 and 2016). The problem for Leavers is that the 52% is made up of a coalition that wanted a whole range of different things. Once we have real solid decisions from the government, it will be interesting to see the reactions.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Yes that's true, it applies to all at the time. If it later transpires that a further contrary decision is made then the previous one ceases to apply (e.g. 1975 and 2016). The problem for Leavers is that the 52% is made up of a coalition that wanted a whole range of different things. Once we have real solid decisions from the government, it will be interesting to see the reactions.
Yes, but the problem for the Rejoiners is that maybe 10% of the country believe in the Project.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Yes that's true, it applies to all at the time. If it later transpires that a further contrary decision is made then the previous one ceases to apply (e.g. 1975 and 2016). The problem for Leavers is that the 52% is made up of a coalition that wanted a whole range of different things. Once we have real solid decisions from the government, it will be interesting to see the reactions.
That applies to Remain voters as well. I do urge people to look at the TUC polling. It does shed some light on similarities and differences between the various components of both sides.
What I find utterly depressing about this article and to be blunt about much of what I've read on this site in recent weeks is the repeated use of "Remainer" and "Leaver" as though referring to two distinct tribes. For God's sake, I voted in a referendum a few weeks ago and suddenly which box I put a cross in has become an essential part of my being? I think a sense of proportion is called for.
I'm sure you object to Labour voter and Conservative voter as well.
Excellent article. Why should my family suffer for Brexit? Anyone who voted leave? Fuck them. .
Yes, of course. And all taxes should only come from Tories, who voted for this government when no one else did. Works for me, I didn't vote for this government.
And all spending should go to Tories. Anyone else, fuck them, they don't want the government so why should the government spend a penny on them.
Or not ...
No, it;s perfect. You don't vote for something, it's not fair it applies to you, that's democracy.
No it's not, that's anarchy. Democracy is that everyone has a say but then the winner applies to all (including those that didn't vote for it).
Yes that's true, it applies to all at the time. If it later transpires that a further contrary decision is made then the previous one ceases to apply (e.g. 1975 and 2016). The problem for Leavers is that the 52% is made up of a coalition that wanted a whole range of different things. Once we have real solid decisions from the government, it will be interesting to see the reactions.
You're illustrating why government by referendum doesn't work. The last resort on a tricky thing is a referendum, and it's lunacy to then try to finesse the result.
Should you be daft enough to ask the same question twice then I guess the more recent answer prevails, but what if the turnout were much lower?
Given that the question was asked there simply has to be an implementation of the answer. It can be a weak and nonsense implementation if you wish, but it'd be a foolish politician that championed such things. To seek to disobey (not the word I wanted, but it'll do) the result is simply treacherous.
This article is rubbish (and I voted Remain..) Using the same logic, tax and spend from Labour should mean benefits are cut and taxes raised on those who voted Labour.
Mind you, perhaps this article is not such rubbish :-)
'May will certainly not want to take on half the banks and law firms in the City threatening to move their HQs to Paris or Frankfurt if we leave the single market, companies threatening to move factories to the continent not to mention the majority of voters who do not want to leave the single market either'
We had exactly the same threats if we didn't join the Euro, can you remind us how many moved ?
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
There's an issue of timing here. The EEA, as is, and remaining in the EU for the time being are immediately available options. Everything else, including regularising our WTO membership, will take years and will require EU agreement. A new treaty, which most likely will be needed at some point takes upwards of two years to ratify.
I agree with Casino Royale that Brexit will likely be a journey rather than a transformation. But it won't, I think, be incremental planned steps, instead a drawn out sequence of options being closed off as the contradictions and false assumptions of each become apparent.
'Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.'
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.'
Problem is that the likes of Meeks will claim anything bad is due to Brexit & anything good is because Brexit hasn't fully taken place.
On UK Polling Report Roger Mexico has made the following comment to Anthony Wells of YouGov re its most recent poll showing a 14% Tory lead. Anthony has yet to respond.
'Anthony
I’m actually a little puzzled about the way the final figures are worked out on this poll. If you look at the basic figures for VI before any LTV processing and whatever they are:
Con 26% (-1)
Lab 21% (+1)
Lib Dem 7% (+2)
UKIP 11% (+2)
SNP/PC 4% (nc)
Other[1] 4% (nc)
Would not vote 11% (nc)
Don’t know 16% (-3)
I know you can’t estimate final percentages exactly from this, but I would expect the direction of movement to be the same in the headline figures. So for the Con-Lab lead to increase and the UKIP percentage to go down in those seems strange. Especially as the LTV figures for Lab and UKIP voters seem higher than the Con ones in this poll.'
What I find utterly depressing about this article and to be blunt about much of what I've read on this site in recent weeks is the repeated use of "Remainer" and "Leaver" as though referring to two distinct tribes. For God's sake, I voted in a referendum a few weeks ago and suddenly which box I put a cross in has become an essential part of my being? I think a sense of proportion is called for.
I'm sure you object to Labour voter and Conservative voter as well.
A bit different since there are endless elections fought between those parties.
On UK Polling Report Roger Mexico has made the following comment to Anthony Wells of YouGov re its most recent poll showing a 14% Tory lead. Anthony has yet to respond.
'Anthony
I’m actually a little puzzled about the way the final figures are worked out on this poll. If you look at the basic figures for VI before any LTV processing and whatever they are:
Con 26% (-1)
Lab 21% (+1)
Lib Dem 7% (+2)
UKIP 11% (+2)
SNP/PC 4% (nc)
Other[1] 4% (nc)
Would not vote 11% (nc)
Don’t know 16% (-3)
I know you can’t estimate final percentages exactly from this, but I would expect the direction of movement to be the same in the headline figures. So for the Con-Lab lead to increase and the UKIP percentage to go down in those seems strange. Especially as the LTV figures for Lab and UKIP voters seem higher than the Con ones in this poll.'
Expecting the direction to be the same is only true if the likelihood to vote hadn't changed, surely?
'May will certainly not want to take on half the banks and law firms in the City threatening to move their HQs to Paris or Frankfurt if we leave the single market, companies threatening to move factories to the continent not to mention the majority of voters who do not want to leave the single market either'
We had exactly the same threats if we didn't join the Euro, can you remind us how many moved ?
Even I opposed joining the Euro, being outside the single market of our biggest trade partners is a completely different argument
Clever right-wing people voted LEAVE in the hope of subsequently betraying the White English/Welsh working class by wangling EEA, to make sure the UK would still be able to sell services into the EU but not have to comply with its rights, labour or environmental laws, and would still import loads of immigrants after months of whipping up fear and enmity about them, and holding out the promise of "control" of the swamp of foreigners.
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
You are labouring under a number of misapprehensions. EEA includes compliance with the environmental acquis (bar those that pertain to CAP/CFP).
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
There's an issue of timing here. The EEA, as is, and remaining in the EU for the time being are immediately available options. Everything else, including regularising our WTO membership, will take years and will require EU agreement. A new treaty, which most likely will be needed at some point takes upwards of two years to ratify.
I agree with Casino Royale that Brexit will likely be a journey rather than a transformation. But it won't, I think, be incremental planned steps, instead a drawn out sequence of options being closed off as the contradictions and false assumptions of each become apparent.
I'm going to plead Rumsfeld at this point. The things that I don't know about the process far outweigh the things I do know. I'm satisfied with my knowledge of EFTA, EEA and WTO. I understand the broad financial implications of each of our primary options.
However, it's all gone very quiet on the political front. I have no idea if much is going on, or nothing. I'm happy to carry on speculating, but there's little we can do except rehash what are, by now, extremely tired arguments.
Where we agree is that it's a journey rather than an event.
'Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.'
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.'
Problem is that the likes of Meeks will claim anything bad is due to Brexit & anything good is because Brexit hasn't fully taken place.
Nothing we can do about your last paragraph. I console myself that there are almost equal numbers of Brexiteers who are completely deluded about the consequences and are oblivious to the complexities of the process we're embarked on. Both sides have their crosses to bear.
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
I like going to Waitrose. Always bump into people I know, it's a social occasion, albeit a minor one. Sure Amazon will do marvels in the cities though.
On UK Polling Report Roger Mexico has made the following comment to Anthony Wells of YouGov re its most recent poll showing a 14% Tory lead. Anthony has yet to respond.
'Anthony
I’m actually a little puzzled about the way the final figures are worked out on this poll. If you look at the basic figures for VI before any LTV processing and whatever they are:
Con 26% (-1)
Lab 21% (+1)
Lib Dem 7% (+2)
UKIP 11% (+2)
SNP/PC 4% (nc)
Other[1] 4% (nc)
Would not vote 11% (nc)
Don’t know 16% (-3)
I know you can’t estimate final percentages exactly from this, but I would expect the direction of movement to be the same in the headline figures. So for the Con-Lab lead to increase and the UKIP percentage to go down in those seems strange. Especially as the LTV figures for Lab and UKIP voters seem higher than the Con ones in this poll.'
Expecting the direction to be the same is only true if the likelihood to vote hadn't changed, surely?
I have not looked at the data in the same detail that Roger Mexico has done, but he is implying that likelihood to vote of Labour and UKIP voters had increased relative to Tory voters.For that reason, he clearly finds the headline figures to be bizarre - and inconsistent.
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
What I find utterly depressing about this article and to be blunt about much of what I've read on this site in recent weeks is the repeated use of "Remainer" and "Leaver" as though referring to two distinct tribes. For God's sake, I voted in a referendum a few weeks ago and suddenly which box I put a cross in has become an essential part of my being? I think a sense of proportion is called for.
I'm sure you object to Labour voter and Conservative voter as well.
A bit different since there are endless elections fought between those parties.
Exactly, though there is some nuance. A floating voter who backed the party du jour at the last election can't be talked about as a Conservative voter or Labour voter in the same way as someone who always votes for the same party, puts up a poster at election time etc. There are parallels with people who made up their mind in the last week of the EURef campaign and half-heartedly voted one way or the other as opposed to people who'd made up their minds years ago and went out campaigning.
On UK Polling Report Roger Mexico has made the following comment to Anthony Wells of YouGov re its most recent poll showing a 14% Tory lead. Anthony has yet to respond.
'Anthony
I’m actually a little puzzled about the way the final figures are worked out on this poll. If you look at the basic figures for VI before any LTV processing and whatever they are:
Con 26% (-1)
Lab 21% (+1)
Lib Dem 7% (+2)
UKIP 11% (+2)
SNP/PC 4% (nc)
Other[1] 4% (nc)
Would not vote 11% (nc)
Don’t know 16% (-3)
I know you can’t estimate final percentages exactly from this, but I would expect the direction of movement to be the same in the headline figures. So for the Con-Lab lead to increase and the UKIP percentage to go down in those seems strange. Especially as the LTV figures for Lab and UKIP voters seem higher than the Con ones in this poll.'
Expecting the direction to be the same is only true if the likelihood to vote hadn't changed, surely?
I have not looked at the data in the same detail that Roger Mexico has done, but he is implying that likelihood to vote of Labour and UKIP voters had increased relative to Tory voters.For that reason, he clearly finds the headline figures to be bizarre - and inconsistent.
While YouGov may have made a mistake, I very much doubt that is what has happened. Probably just a part of their black box weighting magic.
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
Not tried Mr T, though I'd like to. It's very east in terms of its London focus. (I'm just west of Lords)
I imagine Amazon are running a loss-leader, and they're chasing a loss-leader in a sector that has found newfound losses. Sort of interesting.
(edit) PS Although I think that the header is the daftest thing ever, I do of course echo the good wishes towards Alastair and his partner.
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
Quick appeal to Robert - would it be possible to make the archives side bar shorter; it often overruns the comments box, and more frustratingly, individual links overrun the 'post comment' button making posting difficult...
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
Wow. Their wine selection is pretty impressive. I only looked at the English sparkling and saw that they stock Gusbourne and Ridgeview.
Only just seen Alistair's article. He's right. Those who caused Brexit should pay. How about the sneering, overbearing, self-defining metropolitan elite, whose contempt for much of the country and its citizens prompted the rebellion against the proclaimed masters?
Also an interesting BMG poll carried out between July 22nd - 26th. Not all pollsters show a big Tory lead!
Con 34%
Lab 32%
Lib Dem 8%
UKIP 13%
Green 8%
SNP 4%
PC 1%
Other 1%
10 days ago
I think the fact that Labour, especially at this point in the parliamentary cycle, and rarely registered leads should be cause for concern. But hey, drawing level with the Tories is progress these days.
Is it just me....I have zero "Olympic Spirit" this time. Normally I look forward to watching all sorts of sports I would never normally watched played by people who I have never heard of, but this time around I really can't be arsed.
Perhaps still hung over from 2012. It feels a lot less low profile after the wall to wall London build up 4 years ago.
Is it just me....I have zero "Olympic Spirit" this time. Normally I look forward to watching all sorts of sports I would never normally watched played by people who I have never heard of, but this time around I really can't be arsed.
Perhaps still hung over from 2012. It feels a lot less low profile after the wall to wall London build up 4 years ago.
I feel sorry for the Brazilians who've spent so much treasure for such footling rewards. I'll still watch the swimming and canoeing. The athletics has little credibility.
Also an interesting BMG poll carried out between July 22nd - 26th. Not all pollsters show a big Tory lead!
Con 34%
Lab 32%
Lib Dem 8%
UKIP 13%
Green 8%
SNP 4%
PC 1%
Other 1%
10 days ago
I think the fact that Labour, especially at this point in the parliamentary cycle, and rarely registered leads should be cause for concern. But hey, drawing level with the Tories is progress these days.
Only just seen Alistair's article. He's right. Those who caused Brexit should pay. How about the sneering, overbearing, self-defining metropolitan elite, whose contempt for much of the country and its citizens prompted the rebellion against the proclaimed masters?
I hope the health of Alastair's partner continues to improve.
Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.
Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.
They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado.
Not tried Mr T, though I'd like to. It's very east in terms of its London focus. (I'm just west of Lords)
I imagine Amazon are running a loss-leader, and they're chasing a loss-leader in a sector that has found newfound losses. Sort of interesting.
(edit) PS Although I think that the header is the daftest thing ever, I do of course echo the good wishes towards Alastair and his partner.
The wine prices are competitive, but the range is heavily big name mass produced plonk.
Only just seen Alistair's article. He's right. Those who caused Brexit should pay. How about the sneering, overbearing, self-defining metropolitan elite, whose contempt for much of the country and its citizens prompted the rebellion against the proclaimed masters?
Are you saying Jo Cox was asking for it?
No, but I'm sure you think the French are at fault for the terrorist attacks that have blighted them recently. Snore.
Only just seen Alistair's article. He's right. Those who caused Brexit should pay. How about the sneering, overbearing, self-defining metropolitan elite, whose contempt for much of the country and its citizens prompted the rebellion against the proclaimed masters?
Comments
It still smells the same.
When George Osborne becomes PM in a few years time, I'm sure he'll give me the GCMG I've always craved.
Time was, the trolling was in the comments.
I was sad to have the EUref in 2016 because the economy has been weakening for a couple of years, so it wasn't really the right time. However, we weren't going to get another opportunity.
The cost of EU membership is literally chump change. It's 1% of GDP. However, people get hung up on symbols, so there you have it. The delta between our debt servicing costs at the start and end of this parliament is £21 billion p.a. Don't hear people squeaking about that.
There's an argument that we should have gone balls deep into Europe, shouldered France aside and created a real London-Berlin axis. That could have been fantastic.
The reasons for my Leave vote were idiosyncratic. Probably not alone in that.
An appropriate award from our failed CoE
The Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, which is shortened to GCMG, which stands for God Calls Me God.
I ramble about the Ancient Olympics:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/ancient-olympics.html
For those into The Witcher 3 but with more money than me, some artwork's up here:
https://www.candb.com/en/artcollectivegallery/94/artwork-by-cd-projekt-red.html
So its buy popcorn and see how long France will hold out being Germany's plaything. How low does the humiliation barrier actually have to go ?
With of course the occasional french tantrum directed aginst us for leaving them in a predicament of their own choosing.
There will always be the eye-catching headlines for good and ill, but the success of Brexit will depend on shifts in frequency distributions that will be hard to discern for several years.
"So are you willing to pay the price?"
"REMAINER TRAITOR!!! I meant other people should pay, I should get a medal!"
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/fsr/2016/fsrjul16sum.pdf
If they want EEA, let them be the ones to die in a ditch versus the Tory press for it, rather than letting the poor REMAINers die a second time.
http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement/eea-basic-features
PM May has already stated that she doesn't believe that any off-the-peg arrangement is suitable for the UK, so I would imagine both your fears and self-pity are unfounded.
Presumably we'd keep punishing/rewarding the relevant demographics long after people who actually voted on 23/06/16 have aged or moved up in social class, etc. Or of course we could move forwards as a country that works for the 52% and the 48%.
While I'm dubious that a country as large as the UK can talk itself into a recession, we're bound to see a drop in demand even though nothing has actually happened per se. The BoE has done what it feels necessary to counter that.
All that remains to be seen is what proportion of the population is going to be unhappy with the result. I don't see that anyone is being asked to do anything for anyone else.
If it later transpires that a further contrary decision is made then the previous one ceases to apply (e.g. 1975 and 2016).
The problem for Leavers is that the 52% is made up of a coalition that wanted a whole range of different things. Once we have real solid decisions from the government, it will be interesting to see the reactions.
http://www.rdm.co.za/politics/2016/08/04/election-results-live-the-day-that-changed-the-country
It wasn't a battle of good vs evil, in the same way as Tory vs labour GE wasn't. It was two different visions both with merits, both with negatives.
Voting to stay wouldn't have led to UK destruction nor with brexit. It is more a question of which is overall beneficial in the long term.
http://www.gqrr.com/articles/2016/8/4/the-21-things-you-need-to-know-to-understand-why-britain-voted-leave
Con 34%
Lab 32%
Lib Dem 8%
UKIP 13%
Green 8%
SNP 4%
PC 1%
Other 1%
Should you be daft enough to ask the same question twice then I guess the more recent answer prevails, but what if the turnout were much lower?
Given that the question was asked there simply has to be an implementation of the answer. It can be a weak and nonsense implementation if you wish, but it'd be a foolish politician that championed such things. To seek to disobey (not the word I wanted, but it'll do) the result is simply treacherous.
Using the same logic, tax and spend from Labour should mean benefits are cut and taxes raised on those who voted Labour.
Mind you, perhaps this article is not such rubbish :-)
'May will certainly not want to take on half the banks and law firms in the City threatening to move their HQs to Paris or Frankfurt if we leave the single market, companies threatening to move factories to the continent not to mention the majority of voters who do not want to leave the single market either'
We had exactly the same threats if we didn't join the Euro, can you remind us how many moved ?
I agree with Casino Royale that Brexit will likely be a journey rather than a transformation. But it won't, I think, be incremental planned steps, instead a drawn out sequence of options being closed off as the contradictions and false assumptions of each become apparent.
'tlg86
'Spoke to my friend who runs a sheet metal business and he says that business is booming.'
Said before but it bears repeating. The UK's economy is huge. Any Brexit effects are going to be statistical. Even in the depths of the last recession ~250k businesses were created. About 75% of the UK's companies don't do any international trade of any kind. Some firms will absolutely boom, others will fold.'
Problem is that the likes of Meeks will claim anything bad is due to Brexit & anything good is because Brexit hasn't fully taken place.
I am professionally labouring under the direct consequences of their brainless numpty actions ( I am entirely serious ).
Clearly none of this should apply to me, and the costs should be wholly borne by those who did vote for the pair of them,
According to the article's logic anyway. So that's ok then. Except, back in the real world, sadly for me it's not.
'Anthony
I’m actually a little puzzled about the way the final figures are worked out on this poll. If you look at the basic figures for VI before any LTV processing and whatever they are:
Con 26% (-1)
Lab 21% (+1)
Lib Dem 7% (+2)
UKIP 11% (+2)
SNP/PC 4% (nc)
Other[1] 4% (nc)
Would not vote 11% (nc)
Don’t know 16% (-3)
I know you can’t estimate final percentages exactly from this, but I would expect the direction of movement to be the same in the headline figures. So for the Con-Lab lead to increase and the UKIP percentage to go down in those seems strange. Especially as the LTV figures for Lab and UKIP voters seem higher than the Con ones in this poll.'
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dwpdjgfxsp/TimesResults_160802_Trackers&VI_W.pdf
However, it's all gone very quiet on the political front. I have no idea if much is going on, or nothing. I'm happy to carry on speculating, but there's little we can do except rehash what are, by now, extremely tired arguments.
Where we agree is that it's a journey rather than an event.
I imagine Amazon are running a loss-leader, and they're chasing a loss-leader in a sector that has found newfound losses. Sort of interesting.
(edit) PS Although I think that the header is the daftest thing ever, I do of course echo the good wishes towards Alastair and his partner.
Clinton 46 .. Trump 39
http://www.investors.com/politics/trump-loses-ground-across-the-board-against-clinton-poll-finds/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/189299/presidential-election-2016-key-indicators.aspx
The Democrats sound bite that your are going to hear a lot is "Nuclear war is bad for business"
Perhaps still hung over from 2012. It feels a lot less low profile after the wall to wall London build up 4 years ago.
I think we should have a special remainer tax on sections of society that prefominantly voted remain to pay the EU contributions until we have left.
Trebling council tax in London and Scotland ought to raise enough