If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Excellent article from Kieran, by the way. All the more so for having been written so quickly after the event - though I wouldn't be surprised if he knew what he was likely to write beforehand and only set it down once the reality lived up to his expectations/fears.
The sensible person would have written it entirely beforehand and tweaked it in light of the reality. Well that's what I'd have done anyway
Nah - always write after the event. Tweaking tends to bugger of the flow of an article and makes it too easy to introduce sentence structure errors. Having your main points sorted out in advance helps though.
If that clip is at all typical Keiran is far too kind in his analysis.
I am concerned that we are hearing so little from those MPs who supported a no confidence motion in Corbyn so recently. Are they scared of deselection or underwhelmed by Smith? They really need to work on the membership and make it clear that one has a team in Parliament who can work with him and one doesn't. That really is not being said loudly at the moment.
I suggested about ten days ago that Donald was worth laying @ 3.1 - and that his odds were likely to lengthen over the next week or so.
That has proved to be a fairly profitable trade for pong holdings, increasing the book value by ~30%.
I've now rebacked trump and along with a few other small trades - and the continued (and slightly reluctant) liquidation of my Gary Johnson position - I'm left with;
Trump/Clinton +15 Johnson +333 Everyone else >=+15
Book value ~+16
We'll wait to see what the polls do over the next few weeks, but for now I think the betfair market has the odds about right.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Maybe we had IDS in charge of it? It will be rolled out in the next Parliament/sometime never.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
And more private sector influence was brought in in the other 27 years...
If that clip is at all typical Keiran is far too kind in his analysis.
I am concerned that we are hearing so little from those MPs who supported a no confidence motion in Corbyn so recently. Are they scared of deselection or underwhelmed by Smith? They really need to work on the membership and make it clear that one has a team in Parliament who can work with him and one doesn't. That really is not being said loudly at the moment.
The 170 MPs who voted for a ‘no confidence’ motion in their leader are an utterly spent force and regarded as pariahs amongst the Corbynite dominated membership. They are silent because they know no one within Labour's shadow front bench is prepared to listen to them and besides, the next 4 years are going to be unpleasant enough for them without adding the attention of the angry mob.
SeanT's entertaining vision notwithstanding there is no chance of a May led government producing radical policies or lurching this country to the right in any meaningful sense.
What there is a risk of is complacency, smugness, a lack of critical thinking and analysis and some really stupid policies being persevered in for far too long. This is what all governments with no effective opposition suffer from. We are not best placed to sustain unchallenged incompetence.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
Finally got around to reading your colleague's piece on the ineffectiveness of the ECB and the foolishness of negative interest rate policies. Very good. I had not appreciated the point about regulatory risk being such an ongoing issue before.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
"Washington Post" looks at the state of the race and attempts by the Clinton campaign to reach out to Republicans as Trump struggles to unite the party :
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
I don't think that's why the 52% voted as they did. Withdrawing all forms of State healthcare subsidy from inner cities might be more like it.
On topic, can someone please do a poll on how Labour's members view the role of Parliament in achieving socialism? Or the role of the State apparatus?
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
This is current govt policy and does seem in line with May's One Nation Tory approach rather than SeanT's drunken babyeating rants.
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
OT, but caught sight of these Witcher 3 prints. They're pricey (basic versions are typically £70-115 and there are enswankified versions for circa £300-400) but as numbers are limited, there are some gamers here and most people have a bit more cash than most [well, me] I thought I'd flag them up: https://www.candb.com/en/artcollectivegallery/94/artwork-by-cd-projekt-red.html
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
This is current govt policy and does seem in line with May's One Nation Tory approach rather than SeanT's drunken babyeating rants.
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
It doesn't matter how low interest rates are - at some point you have to repay the capital and thus reduce consumption in that particular future year.
Any idea how these would give in EV? Based on UNS imperfect as it is.
Looks like you are going to remain TOTY
Firstly we have to attach a health warning to post convention polling combined with Trump having a bad hair week. That said a 10 point Clinton win would be a landslide in the EC in the range of 396/142 - with Clinton adding to Obama 12 with North Carolina, Georgia, Indiana, Missouri, Arizona and Nebraska CD2.
South Carolina, Utah and Texas would remain Trump but around 5 point margins.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
That might be one of the ways to give Labour a chance. There were two effective pitches in the Brexit campaign. One was immigration, the second was spending more on the NHS. It was even on the side of the campaign buses.
Worth noting that those aged 65+ (heavily Tory voting) are the biggest users of the NHS. It could be as self defeating as the Labour party ignoring its core vote.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
Yes, that is Labour's choice, under Smith they might match Ed Miliband's score on a good day, with Corbyn in charge they would be trying to avoid doing even worse than Foot did in 1983
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
This is current govt policy and does seem in line with May's One Nation Tory approach rather than SeanT's drunken babyeating rants.
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
It doesn't matter how low interest rates are - at some point you have to repay the capital and thus reduce consumption in that particular future year.
Quite so. George Osborne was right to focus on running a surplus asap.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
May would do neither but personally I think requiring the wealthy to take out private health insurance would be sensible, which is what they do in Australia, as would be a more contributory welfare state
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
This is current govt policy and does seem in line with May's One Nation Tory approach rather than SeanT's drunken babyeating rants.
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
It doesn't matter how low interest rates are - at some point you have to repay the capital and thus reduce consumption in that particular future year.
Quite so. George Osborne was right to focus on running a surplus asap.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
Finally got around to reading your colleague's piece on the ineffectiveness of the ECB and the foolishness of negative interest rate policies. Very good. I had not appreciated the point about regulatory risk being such an ongoing issue before.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Smith would be Labour's Michael Howard, neither electable as PM in a typical election year but both at least able to do the job of opposition leader unlike their predecessor. Howard only won 198 seats in 2005 and 32% but IDS may have done even worse
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
Any idea how these would give in EV? Based on UNS imperfect as it is.
Looks like you are going to remain TOTY
Firstly we have to attach a health warning to post convention polling combined with Trump having a bad hair week. That said a 10 point Clinton win would be a landslide in the EC in the range of 396/142 - with Clinton adding to Obama 12 with North Carolina, Georgia, Indiana, Missouri, Arizona and Nebraska CD2.
South Carolina, Utah and Texas would remain Trump but around 5 point margins.
There were a pair of Labour members of the party on Radio 5 this morning in order to discuss the hustings. Both of them had voted for Corbyn, and neither of them was convinced by Smith last night. But the bit that made me chuckle was when the chap said that he thought 'Corbyn could appeal to Conservative voters', and the amazing thing is he didn't actually sound barmy.
There were a pair of Labour members of the party on Radio 5 this morning in order to discuss the hustings. Both of them had voted for Corbyn, and neither of them was convinced by Smith last night. But the bit that made me chuckle was when the chap said that he thought 'Corbyn could appeal to Conservative voters', and the amazing thing is he didn't actually sound barmy.
Labour are in deep, deep trouble.
That must be the little known "revolutionary socialist" wing of the conservative party. Apparently they have a meeting once a year a party conference, but they never need to hire a room with more than one table.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
Owen's predecessor in Pontypridd never failed to get less than 50 per cent of the vote, and sometimes over 60 per cent. Owen has got 40 per cent in his two elections. He is not that popular in Wales.
I'm not sure how relevant trhat last comment is, as it seems to be a more common trend.
eg our next door MP Mr Skinner has had these shares of vote by election:
1997 75% 2001 69% 2005 65% 2010 50% 2015 51%
Obviously for Skinner it is significantly a demographic cause. Why is Smith different, and it is personal?
The party vote turnouts in Pontypridd look like Owen and the Three Dwarves, which is similar to Ashfield after the Lib Dem vote imploded.
Though I wonder what the Corbynista Cloud Cuckoo land effect will be there?
It is a fair point. Pontypridd was and still is a seat owned by the miners, or ex-miners. The previous MP, Kim Howells, was an NUM official.
Coincidentally, the history of the Welsh NUM ("the Fed") was written by Hywel Francis (former MP for Aberavon) and Dai Smith (father of Owen Smith).
Other than his father's influence, Owen has no real connection to the seat -- he wasn't born or bought up in the area.
So Shami, who authored an "independent" report into anti semitism widely criticised for being a whitewash whilst being a Labour member gets awarded a peerage ....
This is the new politics is it?
Same as the old politics but with extra spite and incompetence
There were a pair of Labour members of the party on Radio 5 this morning in order to discuss the hustings. Both of them had voted for Corbyn, and neither of them was convinced by Smith last night. But the bit that made me chuckle was when the chap said that he thought 'Corbyn could appeal to Conservative voters', and the amazing thing is he didn't actually sound barmy.
Labour are in deep, deep trouble.
I am yet to meet a voter who said "I voted Tory in 2015 because Ed Milliband was not left wing enough"
There are a few (including BJO) who seem to think this is the case. They are going to get a very rude awakening. I suspect that the number of Labour seats will be smaller than the Conservative majority.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
A low bar.... mind you this is a man who got where he is through connections and who once famously rang 999 to get comments from the police.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
On the other hand that does mean that the Tories (and surely 5 of those years were Coalition?) Have to take ownership of a lot of the problems within the NHS.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
Any idea of borrowing even more money to finance the NHS should be stamped on from a great height. We will be paying for Browns lunacies of private financing long after I am dead.
This is current govt policy and does seem in line with May's One Nation Tory approach rather than SeanT's drunken babyeating rants.
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
It doesn't matter how low interest rates are - at some point you have to repay the capital and thus reduce consumption in that particular future year.
Quite so. George Osborne was right to focus on running a surplus asap.
Interesting use of asap.............
We are due a recession and still borrowing by the bucket load and Labour in the mean time scream about austerity and want to borrow EVEN more.......
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
He was worse than corbyn last night. He was truly terrible.
There were a pair of Labour members of the party on Radio 5 this morning in order to discuss the hustings. Both of them had voted for Corbyn, and neither of them was convinced by Smith last night. But the bit that made me chuckle was when the chap said that he thought 'Corbyn could appeal to Conservative voters', and the amazing thing is he didn't actually sound barmy.
Labour are in deep, deep trouble.
I am yet to meet a voter who said "I voted Tory in 2015 because Ed Milliband was not left wing enough"
There are a few (including BJO) who seem to think this is the case. They are going to get a very rude awakening. I suspect that the number of Labour seats will be smaller than the Conservative majority.
To be fair no one speaks like that about politics.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
He was worse than corbyn last night. He was truly terrible.
Disagree, whilst the debate was awful, he was good. Deserves respect for being the only one standing up to the braying mob.
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
Please enumerate the Tories' "sleaze and cash for honours".
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
He was worse than corbyn last night. He was truly terrible.
Disagree, whilst the debate was awful, he was good. Deserves respect for being the only one standing up to the braying mob.
Agreed. A debate to become Labour leader isn't going to be the same as a debate to become PM. I don't think he'd be very good, compares unfavourably to Ed, but he is an improvement on Corbyn. Hopefully Smith is just a way to remove Corbyn and he stands down next summer and opens up the race proper, with no hard left candidate being given the nominations. Unfortunately he has to win first, and at this point in time it seems unlikely.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there. A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get. Would he describe himself as a socialist? "I am a democratic socialist, yes." And Mr Blair, is he a socialist? "Yes." Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it." Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair? "No, I don't think so."
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
He was worse than corbyn last night. He was truly terrible.
Disagree, whilst the debate was awful, he was good. Deserves respect for being the only one standing up to the braying mob.
Agreed. A debate to become Labour leader isn't going to be the same as a debate to become PM. I don't think he'd be very good, compares unfavourably to Ed, but he is an improvement on Corbyn. Hopefully Smith is just a way to remove Corbyn and he stands down next summer and opens up the race proper, with no hard left candidate being given the nominations. Unfortunately he has to win first, and at this point in time it seems unlikely.
Jeremy grows things on his allotment that would be a better leader than he is!
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
Well the election campaign for the Tories is very simple if Corbyn is leader. "172 of his own MPs have no confidence in him, neither should you".
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
Please enumerate the Tories' "sleaze and cash for honours".
They mean the perfectly ordinary set of honours for friends and allies of political persons (more so than usual if only because of the reason for the set of honours being more an explicitly political occasion than usual).
The Tories do not have a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours right now. If now signifies such, we already had that problem as part of the system.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
May would do neither but personally I think requiring the wealthy to take out private health insurance would be sensible, which is what they do in Australia, as would be a more contributory welfare state
The proble with private health care in the UK is two-fold - very expensive [ no problem for the wealthy] & no cover for pre-existing medical conditions [ big problem for anyone].
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
He was worse than corbyn last night. He was truly terrible.
Disagree, whilst the debate was awful, he was good. Deserves respect for being the only one standing up to the braying mob.
Agreed. A debate to become Labour leader isn't going to be the same as a debate to become PM. I don't think he'd be very good, compares unfavourably to Ed, but he is an improvement on Corbyn. Hopefully Smith is just a way to remove Corbyn and he stands down next summer and opens up the race proper, with no hard left candidate being given the nominations. Unfortunately he has to win first, and at this point in time it seems unlikely.
If Smith wins he will have a mandate from members and not stand down after all Howard replaced IDS and fought an election with little chance of being PM
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
No a radical manifesto will attract more voters once labour has a PLP that gets behind one.
The current crop see a Tory win as preferable to a Corbyn win as per SO and maybe you?
There were a pair of Labour members of the party on Radio 5 this morning in order to discuss the hustings. Both of them had voted for Corbyn, and neither of them was convinced by Smith last night. But the bit that made me chuckle was when the chap said that he thought 'Corbyn could appeal to Conservative voters', and the amazing thing is he didn't actually sound barmy.
Labour are in deep, deep trouble.
That must be the little known "revolutionary socialist" wing of the conservative party. Apparently they have a meeting once a year a party conference, but they never need to hire a room with more than one table.
Is that the table they split with the LDs to save money?
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
Well the election campaign for the Tories is very simple if Corbyn is leader. "172 of his own MPs have no confidence in him, neither should you".
It's worse than that. If Labour did manage to win most seats. Corbyn wouldn't be able to pass legislation.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
No a radical manifesto will attract more voters once labour has a PLP that gets behind one.
The current crop see a Tory win as preferable to a Corbyn win as per SO and maybe you?
I seriously doubt the first sentence is true. Especially in the face of cold, hard pragmatism from May and the Conservatives.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
No, but he might have potential as a Leader of the Opposition, which would be a step in the right direction. His magic money tree policies alone will make him unelectable.
Unsure re the comparison with Ed - though of course the country decisively rejected him.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
No a radical manifesto will attract more voters once labour has a PLP that gets behind one.
That implies that there are people who voted Tory because Labour weren't left wing enough.
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
I think his handlers in the Conservative Party need to tone it down a bit as it is becoming too obvious.
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
Please enumerate the Tories' "sleaze and cash for honours".
They mean the perfectly ordinary set of honours for friends and allies of political persons (more so than usual if only because of the reason for the set of honours being more an explicitly political occasion than usual).
The Tories do not have a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours right now. If now signifies such, we already had that problem as part of the system.
The key is that this is a poll of Labour members. Smith is pitching to them, not the electorate. With him in charge Labour could hope to emulate EdM's score last year and perhaps do better in Wales. If the LDs progress slightly, that could mean a hung Parliament. It is the very best Labour could hope for. Under Corbyn, of course, that is impossible. More important, though, is that if Smith wins Labour becomes a party focused on winning elections once again. That is absolutely vital.
However, Smith is not going to win. Corbyn is. So it's all academic. Labour will lose the next GE massively. That's the way the hard left will be defeated.
I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Bizarre logic. Corbyn can't carry his own party. He's not going to carry the country.
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
No a radical manifesto will attract more voters once labour has a PLP that gets behind one.
The current crop see a Tory win as preferable to a Corbyn win as per SO and maybe you?
I seriously doubt the first sentence is true. Especially in the face of cold, hard pragmatism from May and the Conservatives.
Agree - i'm sure BJO and his ilk are sincere in their beliefs and hopes but the voters for that platform are simply not there - Blair recognised this and won handsomely three times. There is really little else to say.
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there. A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get. Would he describe himself as a socialist? "I am a democratic socialist, yes." And Mr Blair, is he a socialist? "Yes." Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it." Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair? "No, I don't think so."
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there. A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get. Would he describe himself as a socialist? "I am a democratic socialist, yes." And Mr Blair, is he a socialist? "Yes." Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it." Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair? "No, I don't think so."
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
The fact that 'blairite' is a term of abuse sums up the problems in the Labour party. I detest the man but he was a winner.
I feel quite sorry for Owen Smith - after weeks of dithering from the MPs, he's the only one (A Eagle aside) to have shown the slightest bit of spine when bigger beasts should have stepped up. He's doing his best with what's become a tribal mob, and given that he's supposed to have 170 MPs behind him, most seem to have gone AWOL. Seems like a decent bloke and as bemused as everyone outside Labour at the cult of Corbyn.
Either way, the road seems long and painful for Labour from here.
This nails the essence of the problem (or half of it). Smith is not a potential PM; his appeal is not that he will lead Labour into government (yes, he's saying that but he has to given his position); it's that he'll arrest the decline. But is that really enough? Perhaps he would resign later if elected and allow himself to be a super-stalking-horse, so that a genuinely PM-able candidate could be chosen. Such self-sacrifice is not usually a characteristic of the kind of people who become party leaders though.
And the potential PMs within Labour ranks didn't stand because they knew they'd lose again. For as long as Labour won't choose someone that the country would choose, they are in a very deep hole.
Disagree. Smith has potential as PM. This is early days for him. IMO he is better than Ed.
No, but he might have potential as a Leader of the Opposition, which would be a step in the right direction. His magic money tree policies alone will make him unelectable.
Unsure re the comparison with Ed - though of course the country decisively rejected him.
Don't think we know anything about the policies Smith would go to the country with. In 2005 Cameron was pledged to match Labour spending. It's too early and too hypothetical.
I will say that Labour should be aiming for a more left wing platform than Blair circa 2006. Blair circa 1997 is quite radical.
If you believe the Labour candidates and their supporters, it's the 'most right wing' Tory government ever. But then it always is.
I bet we are doing our semi annual privatisation of the NHS too
Yes. Considering that the Conservatives have run the NHS for 41 of its 68 years, we must be staggeringly incompetent not to have privatised it yet. That or we just don't want to do it.
Or you have a really, really cunning plan.
If they have a 15 year run, dismantling of the NHS (and the welfare state system) for a more European style system would be one thing worth very serious consideration.
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
May would do neither but personally I think requiring the wealthy to take out private health insurance would be sensible, which is what they do in Australia, as would be a more contributory welfare state
The proble with private health care in the UK is two-fold - very expensive [ no problem for the wealthy] & no cover for pre-existing medical conditions [ big problem for anyone].
And no cover for psychiatry or chronic conditions (ie those lasting more than 3 months).
At least when I lived there, Australia did not require health insurance. State cover varied from very good (Victoria) to a bare bones service (Queensland).
Maggie wil be looking down this morning with a self satisfied smug smile on her face.
She has been quoted as saying that her greatest achivement was New Labour and Tony Blair and as she looks down and views the results of the most ham-fisted Laurel and Hardy-esque coup, orchestrated by the remnants of the New Labour MP's, she must feel that she is on the verge of witnessing her greatest ambition - the total destruction of Labour and all it stood for, as a political force.
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there. A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get. Would he describe himself as a socialist? "I am a democratic socialist, yes." And Mr Blair, is he a socialist? "Yes." Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it." Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair? "No, I don't think so."
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
The fact that 'blairite' is a term of abuse sums up the problems in the Labour party. I detest the man but he was a winner.
Isn't it a massive failure for Blair's legacy that to be even associated with his name is a total negative? To reverse your point, for many ex Labour voters (including me), he was a winner but I detest the man and his policies.
Any idea how these would give in EV? Based on UNS imperfect as it is.
Looks like you are going to remain TOTY
Firstly we have to attach a health warning to post convention polling combined with Trump having a bad hair week. That said a 10 point Clinton win would be a landslide in the EC in the range of 396/142 - with Clinton adding to Obama 12 with North Carolina, Georgia, Indiana, Missouri, Arizona and Nebraska CD2.
South Carolina, Utah and Texas would remain Trump but around 5 point margins.
Thanks. I am on a Clinton landslide. I can only see Trump going downhill from here. Possibly the worst Republican performance in decades.
I have a sneaking feeling he will pull out at the last minute rather than be humiliated in November if thats the way it's looking. I can see him coming up with some ludicrous self-aggrandising reason like serious threats on his life or some such rubbish
Dems have similar problem to Tories, they each need Trump and Corbyn respectively to still do well enough to stay on rather than implode completely.
I think the Tories are safe till 2020 with Corbyn but the GOP could yet snatch victory from a seemingly hopeless situation. Out of interest, does your bet on Clinton landslide become void if the candidate changes?
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there. A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get. Would he describe himself as a socialist? "I am a democratic socialist, yes." And Mr Blair, is he a socialist? "Yes." Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it." Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair? "No, I don't think so."
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
The fact that 'blairite' is a term of abuse sums up the problems in the Labour party. I detest the man but he was a winner.
Isn't it a massive failure for Blair's legacy that to be even associated with his name is a total negative? To reverse your point, for many ex Labour voters (including me), he was a winner but I detest the man and his policies.
Isn't it his personal behaviour, especially since leaving office, that has made his legacy so toxic?
Looks like Cameron is aiming to go the same way btw
It's amazing how incompetent Corbyn is. Right now the Tories could be having a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours, but by putting forwards Chakrabati for a peerage he has completely undermined the argument and now it is just another case of "a pox on all your houses". Owen Smith has an opportunity here to show Jez up as a huge hypocrite and win over a lot of people. He must take the chance and attack this appointment.
Please enumerate the Tories' "sleaze and cash for honours".
They mean the perfectly ordinary set of honours for friends and allies of political persons (more so than usual if only because of the reason for the set of honours being more an explicitly political occasion than usual).
The Tories do not have a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours right now. If now signifies such, we already had that problem as part of the system.
My point is there's not as much to be gained attacking the Tories over things as people are pretending, because it was so ordinary. Sure, without Chakribarti they could attack the whole concept of the honours system, I would guess Corbyn is not a fan of it, but despite the fevered dreams of someon left and right, I don't see why this set of appointments would make for a particularly telling attack on the Tories, due to how unexceptional it is.
Comments
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_579f6339e4b0f42daa4ac9a6
I am concerned that we are hearing so little from those MPs who supported a no confidence motion in Corbyn so recently. Are they scared of deselection or underwhelmed by Smith? They really need to work on the membership and make it clear that one has a team in Parliament who can work with him and one doesn't. That really is not being said loudly at the moment.
I suggested about ten days ago that Donald was worth laying @ 3.1 - and that his odds were likely to lengthen over the next week or so.
That has proved to be a fairly profitable trade for pong holdings, increasing the book value by ~30%.
I've now rebacked trump and along with a few other small trades - and the continued (and slightly reluctant) liquidation of my Gary Johnson position - I'm left with;
Trump/Clinton +15
Johnson +333
Everyone else >=+15
Book value ~+16
We'll wait to see what the polls do over the next few weeks, but for now I think the betfair market has the odds about right.
#wakemeupwhenseptemberends
Clinton 47 .. Trump 38 - NBC/WSJ
Clinton 48 .. Trump 33 - Marist/McClatchy
https://www.scribd.com/document/320223703/16579-NBCWSJ-August-Poll-8-4-Release
https://www.scribd.com/document/320225575/McClatchy-Marist-Poll-National-Nature-of-the-Sample-and-Tables-August-2016
What there is a risk of is complacency, smugness, a lack of critical thinking and analysis and some really stupid policies being persevered in for far too long. This is what all governments with no effective opposition suffer from. We are not best placed to sustain unchallenged incompetence.
PF2 is being touted as the new solution, and to be fair it is better than PF1. In Leicester we are expecting to build our new ambulatory care hospital and childrens hospital with it:
http://www.buildingbetterhealthcare.co.uk/news/article_page/Will_PF2_give_health_sector_schemes_a_shot_in_the_arm/91738
Personally I don't think Theresa May has the balls for that, though.
For those who didn't see it and are interested: http://www.thstailwinds.com/714-2/
How would they select an audience for these hustings?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-broadens-campaign-effort-to-target-wary-republicans/2016/08/04/9b9b360a-5a5f-11e6-9aee-8075993d73a2_story.html
Any idea how these would give in EV? Based on UNS imperfect as it is.
Looks like you are going to remain TOTY
On topic, can someone please do a poll on how Labour's members view the role of Parliament in achieving socialism? Or the role of the State apparatus?
With interest rates as low as they are there has never been a cheaper time for borrowing, and genuine infrastructure is truly investment rather than spending.
Think of it as a forward payment on the £350 million per week to spend on the NHS from the Brexit if that makes you more comfortable.
Interesting piece, Mr. Pedley.
OT, but caught sight of these Witcher 3 prints. They're pricey (basic versions are typically £70-115 and there are enswankified versions for circa £300-400) but as numbers are limited, there are some gamers here and most people have a bit more cash than most [well, me] I thought I'd flag them up:
https://www.candb.com/en/artcollectivegallery/94/artwork-by-cd-projekt-red.html
If that is how Owen Smith goes down on his own turf it does not bode well for his rather forlorn challenge.
South Carolina, Utah and Texas would remain Trump but around 5 point margins.
http://www.270towin.com/
Worth noting that those aged 65+ (heavily Tory voting) are the biggest users of the NHS. It could be as self defeating as the Labour party ignoring its core vote.
I think I agree with all of that.
I looked very very closely but TBH I couldn't see any pregnant ladies in the room.
Labour are in deep, deep trouble.
Coincidentally, the history of the Welsh NUM ("the Fed") was written by Hywel Francis (former MP for Aberavon) and Dai Smith (father of Owen Smith).
Other than his father's influence, Owen has no real connection to the seat -- he wasn't born or bought up in the area.
This is the new politics is it?
Same as the old politics but with extra spite and incompetence
There are a few (including BJO) who seem to think this is the case. They are going to get a very rude awakening. I suspect that the number of Labour seats will be smaller than the Conservative majority.
Some parties do ave em.........
We are due a recession and still borrowing by the bucket load and Labour in the mean time scream about austerity and want to borrow EVEN more.......
This Man Is The Ravenmaster And His Job Is Insanely Cool
https://www.buzzfeed.com/krishrach/definitely-not-unkind?utm_term=.kkz85wEjNr#.kkz85wEjNr
The left get 2 goes to win IMO 2020/2025.
The 2nd once the new PLP more united after deselections is Labours only chance.
A new new Labour has zero chance of winning with its potential voters anyway IMO
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there.
A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get.
Would he describe himself as a socialist?
"I am a democratic socialist, yes."
And Mr Blair, is he a socialist?
"Yes."
Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it."
Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair?
"No, I don't think so."
Once he's deselected the MPs to put his Yes men in place, what next? He will try to deselect the electorate?
The Tories do not have a massive problem with sleaze and cash for honours right now. If now signifies such, we already had that problem as part of the system.
The current crop see a Tory win as preferable to a Corbyn win as per SO and maybe you?
Unsure re the comparison with Ed - though of course the country decisively rejected him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3724567/Dave-s-two-fingers-voters-brazen-contempt-public-opinion-Cameron-showers-honours-chums-cronies-second-raters.html
A loss in 2020 can now be put down to division, rather than Corbyn being too left wing.
The coup was a poor move, they should have held their powder for Corbyn to actually screw up - in a real election.
Labour wins when it's a broad church, certainly not when it's a personality cult deselecting it's own supporters for not agreeing the great leader.
john_zims
Or are you saying that Smith is pretending to be far left ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1522032/No-welcome-in-these-valleys-for-Labour.html
Owen Smith, the new Labour candidate, is, as his name might suggest, male, and a son of the valleys. But the boyo bit ends there.
A former BBC journalist, he was a special adviser to former Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy and is now a political lobbyist for American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. About as New Labour as you can get.
Would he describe himself as a socialist?
"I am a democratic socialist, yes."
And Mr Blair, is he a socialist?
"Yes."
Mr Smith, 36, believes the Law movement is no more than a political spasm. "Their campaign is about the past and reminding people about the past. We are looking to the future." Trying not to sound like a New Labour clone, Mr Smith dips his toe in a puddle of controversy. "The invasion of Iraq was a mistake," he offers. "The world would have been a safer place if we hadn't done it."
Any other areas of difference with Mr Blair?
"No, I don't think so."
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
I will say that Labour should be aiming for a more left wing platform than Blair circa 2006. Blair circa 1997 is quite radical.
bigjohnowls
'I agree 2020 is lost a divided party will never win but blame for that has been handed to the left on a plate by the PLP.
Yep - here is the reason the PLP actions have been so foolhardy.
A loss in 2020 can now be put down to division, rather than Corbyn being too left wing.'
A loss in 2020 will be put down to the electorate not fully understanding Labour's policies and the need to have MP's that can properly explain them.
That was the excuse given by Benn & co for the Foot disaster.
How Cameron shared out the gongs. Almost a half have gone to political colleagues and advisers. https://t.co/LrqMKp1u7R
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/05/black-lives-matter-protest-blocks-heathrow-airport-traffic/
https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/761205722294185984
At least when I lived there, Australia did not require health insurance. State cover varied from very good (Victoria) to a bare bones service (Queensland).
She has been quoted as saying that her greatest achivement was New Labour and Tony Blair and as she looks down and views the results of the most ham-fisted Laurel and Hardy-esque coup, orchestrated by the remnants of the New Labour MP's, she must feel that she is on the verge of witnessing her greatest ambition - the total destruction of Labour and all it stood for, as a political force.
Dems have similar problem to Tories, they each need Trump and Corbyn respectively to still do well enough to stay on rather than implode completely.
I think the Tories are safe till 2020 with Corbyn but the GOP could yet snatch victory from a seemingly hopeless situation. Out of interest, does your bet on Clinton landslide become void if the candidate changes?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2016/08/05/rio-mugger-shot-dead-by-russian-diplomat-with-own-gun-close-to-o/
Hmmm.....They appeared to have picked on the wrong "diplomat" there...
john_zims
Thanks for the confirmation,so he's a Blairite pretending to be a left wing nutjob,how sad is that.
'Unless he's a left wing nutjob who previously pretended to be a Blairite.'
Could we settle for a nutjob of unknown origins ?
Silverdale & Parksite (Newcastle under Lyme) result:
LAB: 56.4% (+19.5)
UKIP: 24.6% (-21.2)
CON: 11.3% (-0.4)
IND: 7.6% (+7.6)
Also down 13% in South East Holderness, Yorkshire.
Looks like Cameron is aiming to go the same way btw