politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And to bring us all down to earth tonight’s Local By-elections
Mostyn (Lab defence) on Conwy Result of council at last election (2012): Independents 19, Conservatives 13, Plaid Cymru 12, Labour 10, Liberal Democrats 5 (No Overall Control, Independents short by 11) Result of ward at last election (2012):
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Is this not partly an attempt to hold May's feet to the fire?
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Is this not partly an attempt to hold May's feet to the fire?
More likely an attempt to keep Leadsom in the contest, no matter how remote her chances of success.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
I think the desired break up of the EU is about getting a better trade deal or even about being able to remake the EU in the UKs image.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
I've decided I want May to win but I want it to be as difficult as possible for her with lots of bloodpact style commitments. This is like the 6th time I've changed my mind so no doubt it'll change again but I really like both candidates.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
There is also an argument that the EU is doomed and that Europe (as a whole, not just Germany and Northern Europe) will be stronger, more vibrant and stood on a sounder political and economic basis in the new arrangement that comes post-EU. If you take that position, then wishing the EU to fail sooner rather than later could be viewed as tough love rather than hatred.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
I think the desired break up of the EU is about getting a better trade deal or even about being able to remake the EU in the UKs image.
Whether you believe that or not, it's not an opinion best held in public if you wish to negotiate with the EU.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
Yeah, but everything is doomed in the long run.
Basically, if we behave like Dan Hannan, I think we do very well. If we behave like Nigel Farage, then we do not.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
Wanting it destroyed would be in line with 200 years of UK foreign policy of balance of power aka divide and rule
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Shades of Peter Kellner and Andrew Cooper ?
Leave.EU's polling was correct on Referendum day...
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
The problem is that it's their business: we want out; it's none of our business what they do next.
It's also pollutes any exit negotiations with ill-will.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Shades of Peter Kellner and Andrew Cooper ?
Leave.EU's polling was correct on Referendum day...
I don't think it's membership polling, it's polling amongst their registered supporters?
Trump's also made peace with Ted Cruz and invited him to speak at the convention.
Now that's important, with the GOP divided Trump is still within stricking distance of Hillary in electoral votes and only about 4-5% behind in the popular vote.
If the GOP gets united, Trump's chances and numbers will go way way up.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
I'm a Hannanite. From bad tenant to good neighbour.
We have a long and proud democratic tradition (this isn't a paean to British exceptionalism, don't worry). That isn't the case in a surprisingly large number of European countries. The EU has mostly helped the PIGS, though in Italy and Greece's case it hasn't been able to stop them self-harming. It's certainly benefited the A8/A2.
In my lifetime Portugal, Spain and Greece have all been under dictatorships or juntas. People tend to forget that.
I am in no way a Trump apologist, but that star thing has been way overdone and Trump has been stupid to be still responding to it. Solid 6-pointed stars are used in a lot of promotional materials and to most people are not a Star of David, which is two superimposed triangles
Agreed. It mainly gave a few superficial journalists something to talk about for a short while.
More interesting is Trump's use of Twitter. He has used it very successfully. As a medium for name-calling insults against rivals - in which he specialises - it has been highly effective. If a tweet misses its target, or embarrasses him in some way, never mind - he just cracks on. The medium doesn't encourage long attention spans. And he's only 5% behind in the polls. Shouldn't he be further behind, given that there's not exactly mass dissatisfaction with Barack Obama?
I got wittily xkcd'ed the last time I mentioned it, but no Democratic US president has taken over from another Democrat in an election since before the civil war.
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
We may think that Brexit is a British issue but it really isn't. What Britain has done will have an effect on other countries in the EU; indeed, it already is having such an effect The longer there is uncertainty about what sort of Brexit the government will be seeking, the greater the economic risks - not just to us but to other states. Businesses may take a steady "let's wait and see" approach for now but if things are no clearer in six months then they will make decisions. Others are not going to stand still while we faff around and make our minds up. And it is simply naive to think that when we have made our mind up and ask for "X" we are going to get "X".
I understand the concerns expressed on the previous thread that a monstering by the metropolitan elite may drive Tory voters into the arms of Ms Leadsom. Tactically that may be right. And the protective instinct is a wonderful thing but really this is a bit pathetic. If she can't survive such a monstering by some newspapers or her opponent, how the hell do you think she will survive the monstering she is going to get from 27 other EU states mightily pissed off at having another problem to deal with?
They will run rings round her. Those other states will do what is necessary to protect their interests and the interests of the EU. They owe us no favours. The job of the PM is to try and get us into a position where their interests and ours coincide or are close enough that we can do a deal that, give or take, suits us both. That is going to take skill and courage and determination and focus and a lot of hard pounding. Not answering questions is not an option. If you think sneering by the BBC is bad, imagine the sort of sneering there will be from other EU states when the UK presents as its PM the office intern.
Deciding not to be in the EU is a grown up decision, whether one agrees with it or not. What we need now is to have a grown up to deal with it.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
Nice touch on the Remain details - I assume that will be kept up for years to come?
That looks like very low vote numbres in the Conwy election last time. But still better than Eden and the unopposed.
Have a by-election coming up in my neck of the woods next week - I forewarn there will be several paragraphs of local detail no one will possibly care about coming.
The backbenches? If rumours are to be believed about her relationship with Gove, I'm sure she'd send him to the bottom of a deep ocean trench or the furthest reaches of space if she could.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
Wanting it destroyed would be in line with 200 years of UK foreign policy of balance of power aka divide and rule
I’m sorry but that’s just silly – the UK will leave the EU, we wish them well and for all those members that chose to remain with it. - It just wasn’t for us, that’s all.
If I have it right, you can get 66/1 on PaddyPower
It's illegal to have both the President and the VP from the same state.
Not true.
Electoral College electors can't vote for both a president and VP from their own state - but NY is unlikely to return Republican electors so this doesn't matter.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Shades of Peter Kellner and Andrew Cooper ?
Leave.EU's polling was correct on Referendum day...
I don't think it's membership polling, it's polling amongst their registered supporters?
They say they have 30,000 con members among their supporters.
I am in no way a Trump apologist, but that star thing has been way overdone and Trump has been stupid to be still responding to it. Solid 6-pointed stars are used in a lot of promotional materials and to most people are not a Star of David, which is two superimposed triangles
Agreed. It mainly gave a few superficial journalists something to talk about for a short while.
More interesting is Trump's use of Twitter. He has used it very successfully. As a medium for name-calling insults against rivals - in which he specialises - it has been highly effective. If a tweet misses its target, or embarrasses him in some way, never mind - he just cracks on. The medium doesn't encourage long attention spans. And he's only 5% behind in the polls. Shouldn't he be further behind, given that there's not exactly mass dissatisfaction with Barack Obama?
I got wittily xkcd'ed the last time I mentioned it, but no Democratic US president has taken over from another Democrat in an election since before the civil war.
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
Trump is using Twitter like a boomlet, just like other Twitter users, like they are talking to each other, or a bit like the comments section in any website.
I see Twitter more like a modern telegraph service.
Obviously Trump's approach is the correct one, if you are out for votes and attention through controversy.
Just as a matter of interest - does Leadsom take the UKIP/Farage line that the UK leaving is the first and necessary step in the break-up of the EU, or does she take the moderate line that Brexit is a British issue, and we (publicly at least) wish the other countries all the best in the future if that is the path they want to take?
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
I don't get the visceral hatred that causes someone who wants the UK out of the EU to also say that (s)he also wants the EU destroyed.
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
There's an argument that the EU is doomed, and if it is it's better that it breaks up sooner rather than later.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
Wanting it destroyed would be in line with 200 years of UK foreign policy of balance of power aka divide and rule
I’m sorry but that’s just silly – the UK will leave the EU, we wish them well and for all those members that chose to remain with it. - It just wasn’t for us, that’s all.
But we still need a strategy for how we deal with our European neighbours. Just because we're not part of the EU doesn't mean that we can either ignore it or think that its actions won't affect us.
A European strategy is needed more than ever now. Brexit is merely the very first stage in such a process.
On what kind of leave we propose, surely we just want to be friends with them rather than openly say, fuck you we're going to destabilise you. We just want to trade and be friends, not shackled to a loveless marriage.
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
On what kind of leave we propose, surely we just want to be friends with them rather than openly say, fuck you we're going to destabilise you. We just want to trade and be friends, not shackled to a loveless marriage.
We need to make clear with them that we are prepared to decide fuck you we are going to destabilise you if they try and shaft us in the brexit negotiations though
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Shades of Peter Kellner and Andrew Cooper ?
Leave.EU's polling was correct on Referendum day...
I don't think it's membership polling, it's polling amongst their registered supporters?
They say they have 30,000 con members among their supporters.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
My own feeling is that this one is in fact going to be the biggest non-issue in the otherwise fraught negotiations. Both sides' interests are almost identical.
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
That is flat out not going to happen. It would destroy the EU, they cannot agree to it (or at least not framed in those blunt terms). Needs much more fudge.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
My own feeling is that this one is in fact going to be the biggest non-issue in the otherwise fraught negotiations. Both sides' interests are almost identical.
If everyone acts rationally. With elections being held at various places, that's never assured when posturing might look better.
Nice touch on the Remain details - I assume that will be kept up for years to come?
That looks like very low vote numbres in the Conwy election last time. But still better than Eden and the unopposed.
Have a by-election coming up in my neck of the woods next week - I forewarn there will be several paragraphs of local detail no one will possibly care about coming.
The referendum figures are for the whole council bot just one ward
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
That is flat out not going to happen. It would destroy the EU, they cannot agree to it (or at least not framed in those blunt terms). Needs much more fudge.
They're doing it with Switzerland. They already do it with Liechtenstein. And they know free movement is a political hot potato in the UK.
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
That is flat out not going to happen. It would destroy the EU, they cannot agree to it (or at least not framed in those blunt terms). Needs much more fudge.
Cap on low skilled migrants for Britain or end to posted workers directive for UK.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
Erm, of course they're going to issue blanket permission for UK pensioners to stay, so they can charge the UK taxpayer for every prescription and every scan. Or the NHS can bring them home. This is not a point in the UK's favour in negotiations...
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
That is flat out not going to happen. It would destroy the EU, they cannot agree to it (or at least not framed in those blunt terms). Needs much more fudge.
And the fudge on the British side can only be provided by someone who is seen as committed to Brexit. May is not that person.
@bbclaurak: Leave.eu releases polling that puts Leadsom ahead of May-given polling probs most interesting thing maybe that leave.eu pushing her so hard
Shades of Peter Kellner and Andrew Cooper ?
Leave.EU's polling was correct on Referendum day...
I don't think it's membership polling, it's polling amongst their registered supporters?
They say they have 30,000 con members among their supporters.
On what kind of leave we propose, surely we just want to be friends with them rather than openly say, fuck you we're going to destabilise you. We just want to trade and be friends, not shackled to a loveless marriage.
We need to make clear with them that we are prepared to decide fuck you we are going to destabilise you if they try and shaft us in the brexit negotiations though
If they try to shaft us, we have to be prepared to leave unconditionally and revert to WTO rules, then resume negotiations from that position. Given the trade imbalance, they will want to come to the table soon enough.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
Erm, of course they're going to issue blanket permission for UK pensioners to stay, so they can charge the UK taxpayer for every prescription and every scan. Or the NHS can bring them home. This is not a point in the UK's favour in negotiations...
Yes, the negotiation about UK and EU nationals living abroad won't be about whether or not to deport them, it will be about what benefits they are entitled to and who pays.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
Spain, Gibraltar
I think you really overrestimate how much Spain really care about Gib.
They care about jobs and an economy more than a little bit of land that we've owned for centuries.
Yes, safe pair of hands - especcially for uk citizens living in the EU. Makes me wonder how right wing Leadsome actually is.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
No it was the EU (Juncker) by getting in a huff and refusing to discuss such matters until article 50 is tabled. May is only asking for a quid pro quo.
That is flat out not going to happen. It would destroy the EU, they cannot agree to it (or at least not framed in those blunt terms). Needs much more fudge.
While I understand the reason for its use, I feel twitter is not the best place for people to make such pronouncements - no room for fudge or nuance, so all you do is create a bunch of statements for people to hold over your head later.
Interesting that so far the ref has no big effect on voting intentions or by elections. Lib dems doing quite well in by elections against the Tories,
The polls are not reflecting the Lib Dems improvement in support on the ground - in the local elections they exceeded the poll ratings by some margin
Weren't they doing that pre GE, and was one reason many of us expected them to do better?
No not really - the GE results were pretty much spot on. Lib Dems were expecting an incumbency effect in existing seats such as in Torbay that would have delivered anoth dozen seats or so but if there was such an effect it was smashed by the hundreds of thousands spent by the Tories.
On what kind of leave we propose, surely we just want to be friends with them rather than openly say, fuck you we're going to destabilise you. We just want to trade and be friends, not shackled to a loveless marriage.
We need to make clear with them that we are prepared to decide fuck you we are going to destabilise you if they try and shaft us in the brexit negotiations though
Then they would have an invitation to interfere in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
That would be an empty threat. We can't deport 3 million people.
In my experience it's probably best not to adopt a policy of repatriation if you want to unite the nation post-referendum...smacks a bit too much of Idi Amin
I have the intense feeling that the status of EU nationals and UK nationals will be used as hostages in any negotiation.
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
It's at times like this that I realise the world has, in fact, gone mad.
We have been told repeatedly that our immigrants are an economic necessity, both in the private sector and public services such as the NHS. We will not get the best from those people, nor will we win any friends by talking in these terms.
May's holding statement is adequate, but I do think it a tactical mistake to adopt this line in the first place.
One of the first rules of negotiation is not to underestimate your opposite numbers. Everyone knows that the UK has more EU citizens resident here than there are British citizens in the EU. It's a tacit threat in and of itself. Talking about it in public is a colossal faux pas.
If people are honest with themselves (an increasingly forlorn hope), had (say) Leave.EU talked about potential deportations during the referendum campaign, people would have been all over it as racism of the worst kind.
I appreciate that we will not agree on this topic, so I'll leave it there.
Comments
*edit* thanks for adding in the referendum data Harry, that's very interesting.
Because I know which line i'd want to be taking if I wanted negotiations with the EU to be conducted in a spirit of mutual beneficial co-operation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt//
We don't want to be part of the club. Fair enough. It's a very different thing to say you want the club disbanded if the other members are happy enough within it.
Great call.
I don't subscribe to the theory but it's a logical argument.
Are there civil service rules for this?
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/2016/07/07/86802266/
Ivanka!!!???!!
If I have it right, you can get 66/1 on PaddyPower
I think it's either Fallin, or Shelley Moore Capito.
Basically, if we behave like Dan Hannan, I think we do very well. If we behave like Nigel Farage, then we do not.
"Mrs May’s most senior supporters are worried that this has now become her greatest single liability"
"BNP policy"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/theresa-may-must-not-be-pm-until-she-rejects-the-policy-of-the-b/
Safe pair of hands?
No hiding place for the next 60days..
It's also pollutes any exit negotiations with ill-will.
If the GOP gets united, Trump's chances and numbers will go way way up.
As I remember it was May and not Leadsom that made the UK's EU citizens a bargaining chip.
We have a long and proud democratic tradition (this isn't a paean to British exceptionalism, don't worry). That isn't the case in a surprisingly large number of European countries. The EU has mostly helped the PIGS, though in Italy and Greece's case it hasn't been able to stop them self-harming. It's certainly benefited the A8/A2.
In my lifetime Portugal, Spain and Greece have all been under dictatorships or juntas. People tend to forget that.
More interesting is Trump's use of Twitter. He has used it very successfully. As a medium for name-calling insults against rivals - in which he specialises - it has been highly effective. If a tweet misses its target, or embarrasses him in some way, never mind - he just cracks on. The medium doesn't encourage long attention spans. And he's only 5% behind in the polls. Shouldn't he be further behind, given that there's not exactly mass dissatisfaction with Barack Obama?
I got wittily xkcd'ed the last time I mentioned it, but no Democratic US president has taken over from another Democrat in an election since before the civil war.
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
I understand the concerns expressed on the previous thread that a monstering by the metropolitan elite may drive Tory voters into the arms of Ms Leadsom. Tactically that may be right. And the protective instinct is a wonderful thing but really this is a bit pathetic. If she can't survive such a monstering by some newspapers or her opponent, how the hell do you think she will survive the monstering she is going to get from 27 other EU states mightily pissed off at having another problem to deal with?
They will run rings round her. Those other states will do what is necessary to protect their interests and the interests of the EU. They owe us no favours. The job of the PM is to try and get us into a position where their interests and ours coincide or are close enough that we can do a deal that, give or take, suits us both. That is going to take skill and courage and determination and focus and a lot of hard pounding. Not answering questions is not an option. If you think sneering by the BBC is bad, imagine the sort of sneering there will be from other EU states when the UK presents as its PM the office intern.
Deciding not to be in the EU is a grown up decision, whether one agrees with it or not. What we need now is to have a grown up to deal with it.
Leave made the status of citizens an issue, that May now has to clean up.
lol, Fraser Nelson deluded as always.
That looks like very low vote numbres in the Conwy election last time. But still better than Eden and the unopposed.
Have a by-election coming up in my neck of the woods next week - I forewarn there will be several paragraphs of local detail no one will possibly care about coming.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/apr/16/lawrence-odonnell/president-vice-president-same-state-allowed/
If only there was a word for that...
On the GOP VP stakes, Rod's pick, Martha McSally is 100 to back with Betfair for small stakes and appears to have stalled.
Electoral College electors can't vote for both a president and VP from their own state - but NY is unlikely to return Republican electors so this doesn't matter.
I see Twitter more like a modern telegraph service.
Obviously Trump's approach is the correct one, if you are out for votes and attention through controversy.
A European strategy is needed more than ever now. Brexit is merely the very first stage in such a process.
This is realpolitik not SJW gesture politics.
Nah not really. We'll soon be signing trade deals with giant blocs exasperated by Europe's socialism and protectionism.
An anything but bl88dy Europe is the strategy we need.
And we won;t be on the hook for the astronomical bills the whole rotten project racks up as it attempts to save its zombie banks and companies.
By Iain Martin
http://reaction.life/david-cameron-avoided/
The UK can blackmail Poland and Romania with their nationals living in the UK, Spain and Italy with the status of the UK expats living in their countries.
The UK has the upper hand on this, since expats are mostly retirees spending their pensions in crisis stricken countries who desperately need cash, those countries can't really afford giving the boot to them.
If they try to shaft us, we have to be prepared to leave unconditionally and revert to WTO rules, then resume negotiations from that position. Given the trade imbalance, they will want to come to the table soon enough.
They care about jobs and an economy more than a little bit of land that we've owned for centuries.
*this is blatantly a set up by May supporters no one who is serious says things like " war on pc".
That was an amazing scoop. Twitter and smart phones, what a combination!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796
We have been told repeatedly that our immigrants are an economic necessity, both in the private sector and public services such as the NHS. We will not get the best from those people, nor will we win any friends by talking in these terms.
May's holding statement is adequate, but I do think it a tactical mistake to adopt this line in the first place.
One of the first rules of negotiation is not to underestimate your opposite numbers. Everyone knows that the UK has more EU citizens resident here than there are British citizens in the EU. It's a tacit threat in and of itself. Talking about it in public is a colossal faux pas.
If people are honest with themselves (an increasingly forlorn hope), had (say) Leave.EU talked about potential deportations during the referendum campaign, people would have been all over it as racism of the worst kind.
I appreciate that we will not agree on this topic, so I'll leave it there.