Still, it's good for those of us on them at 74/1! Missing a couple of key players for the semi - on the other hand, Portugal have hardly been impressive.
I think it might be time to cash out on Wales without Aaron Ramsey. Although Portugal are really crap. Damn, hard call.
Cash out half maybe?
Andy King is the King of Football :-)
(Also LCFC's representation at the Euro's now)
Gladd I topped up on Wales at 55 earlier...
Wales are basically Allen, Ramsey and Bale.
Can Williams keep playing three tiers above his ability? He should have conceded a penalty tonight. Can Robson-Kanu do another Cruyff? Without Ramsey, Wales are going to hurt. Of course, Portugal are really, really crap and should not be in the semis.
I'd say if you've got a decent bet on Wales for the outright, cash half of it in. If you've got a small bet like me, maybe let it ride.
I am on for £4 to win £120, am inclined to let it ride.
I have a bit on Italy too, who I fancy to put the Germans out.
Have money on Iceland, Itsly and Wales - quite happy with that at the moment...
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
So now we know for sure England's perennial failures are not about ability. It's organisation, focus, guts and calm.
Good for the Welsh. Just fantastic.
Yes, it was never talent. As I said after the Iceland debacle, there's something wrong with the mentality - plus a history of failure which weighs heavy on a supposedly "major" football nation. A great coach could fix much of that.
England always seem to be 11 players who've just met. Wales, Iceland etc is players subsuming themselves to a team system.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
I'm sure JJ is worried at least in part due to his good lady being Turkish (apologies to JJ if I'm mis-remembering) .
Two of my nephews are engaged to foreign girls and I would be gutted if some arseholes thought that Brexit meant it was open season for abusing (or worse) immigrants.
I'm going to repeat that it seems self evident to me that many immigrants choose the UK because by and large the British are a friendly, welcoming and tolerant bunch.
We've mostly A8/A2 immigrants round here and everyone rubs along pretty nicely. Of course, I'm in a rural area, it might be different in the cities.
Still, it's good for those of us on them at 74/1! Missing a couple of key players for the semi - on the other hand, Portugal have hardly been impressive.
I think it might be time to cash out on Wales without Aaron Ramsey. Although Portugal are really crap. Damn, hard call.
Cash out half maybe?
Andy King is the King of Football :-)
(Also LCFC's representation at the Euro's now)
Gladd I topped up on Wales at 55 earlier...
Wales are basically Allen, Ramsey and Bale.
Can Williams keep playing three tiers above his ability? He should have conceded a penalty tonight. Can Robson-Kanu do another Cruyff? Without Ramsey, Wales are going to hurt. Of course, Portugal are really, really crap and should not be in the semis.
I'd say if you've got a decent bet on Wales for the outright, cash half of it in. If you've got a small bet like me, maybe let it ride.
I am on for £4 to win £120, am inclined to let it ride.
I have a bit on Italy too, who I fancy to put the Germans out.
I backed all 4 outsiders for the Quarters - Poland, Wales, Italy and Iceland. I'm very confident about Italy. It's such a bloody shame Poland decided to sit back when they were destroying Portugal and let in such a weak equaliser (in terms of defending, the finish was great).
Yes, we should do all those things. In fact we could have done most of that years ago inside the EU. But we didn't, partly because the solutions are not obvious or easy. Hence the hideous 20%-odd rate of illiteracy and innumeracy which has been constant for many decades. I like your unfounded optimism you can fix these problems easily and quickly.
They also take time - education in particular takes decades to work through the system. In the meantime we're up sh*t creek; and that assumes such reforms actually work.
It will also severely damage the tech industry; as you say, the UK's seen as a hostile environment already, and the industry relies on educated immigrants. But that's what we voted for. Leavers were warned.
"we are being seen as a hostile environment for immigrants"
And that sums up my point. Hostile. And the people who are most hostile will only be much more hostile when they rightly feel they've been betrayed.
"Let's not throw it away by chasing an impossible policy of pulling up the drawbridge."
If you think it's an impossible policy, you should have voted remain instead of leave. Because that's what leave were selling.
No, leave was leaving the EU. Nothing more than that. If you want to read into their guff about immigration and money for the NHS that's up to you. As I said earlier, the question asked whether we should leave the EU, not whether we should restrict migration. If those who want that are upset they can continue to campaign for it and get a new referendum on ending free movement.
If it went to a vote, I'm confident that at least 60% would support keeping free movement and the single market. Remember only half of leave voters named immigration as their priority.
You're severely over-estimating the number of people who want open borders.
YouGov February 2013 & October 2012 Only 22% think immigration from Eastern Europe was positive & 70% think immigration rules governing migration from Europe weren’t strict enough.
British Social Attitudes Survey 2014: 77% of people want to see immigration reduced, with 56% wanting to see it reduced a lot.
I didn't say anyone wanted them, but they are a non-negotiable element of single market membership. Membership of which is the cornerstone of our economy. We can't leave the single market without having any kind kf plan for the future, it is going to take a minimum of four years to get trade deals sorted, for two years we'll be stuffed and in a very weak position.
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
Quite right. A stunning victory and one that was fully deserved. Not even close, really. Teamwork. That's the key.
Yes, we should do all those things. In fact we could have done most of that years ago inside the EU. But we didn't, partly because the solutions are not obvious or easy. Hence the hideous 20%-odd rate of illiteracy and innumeracy which has been constant for many decades. I like your unfounded optimism you can fix these problems easily and quickly.
They also take time - education in particular takes decades to work through the system. In the meantime we're up sh*t creek; and that assumes such reforms actually work.
It will also severely damage the tech industry; as you say, the UK's seen as a hostile environment already, and the industry relies on educated immigrants. But that's what we voted for. Leavers were warned.
"we are being seen as a hostile environment for immigrants"
And that sums up my point. Hostile. And the people who are most hostile will only be much more hostile when they rightly feel they've been betrayed.
"Let's not throw it away by chasing an impossible policy of pulling up the drawbridge."
If you think it's an impossible policy, you should have voted remain instead of leave. Because that's what leave were selling.
No, leave was leaving the EU. Nothing more than that. If you want to read into their guff about immigration and money for the NHS that's up to you. As I said earlier, the question asked whether we should leave the EU, not whether we should restrict migration. If those who want that are upset they can continue to campaign for it and get a new referendum on ending free movement.
If it went to a vote, I'm confident that at least 60% would support keeping free movement and the single market. Remember only half of leave voters named immigration as their priority.
You're severely over-estimating the number of people who want open borders.
YouGov February 2013 & October 2012 Only 22% think immigration from Eastern Europe was positive & 70% think immigration rules governing migration from Europe weren’t strict enough.
British Social Attitudes Survey 2014: 77% of people want to see immigration reduced, with 56% wanting to see it reduced a lot.
I didn't say anyone wanted them, but they are a non-negotiable element of single market membership. Membership of which is the cornerstone of our economy. We can't leave the single market without having any kind kf plan for the future, it is going to take a minimum of four years to get trade deals sorted, for two years we'll be stuffed and in a very weak position.
And yet that is precisely what people have voted for.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Only by a tiny margin, and the leave side included scores of people who don't really care about immigration but want out of the EU. I'm one of them. If the government had offered associate membership similar to the EEA I would have been in the remain camp. But they didn't, so I had to vote to leave.
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
You can't really judge Wales by a tournament run where we're overachieving.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Regardless, a recent EU wide poll had over 60% of UK voters backing free movement of European workers, about 35% opposed. So if May takes us into EFTA she should win an election backing the deal even if UKIP are guaranteed 25-30% of the vote. Many Home Counties Tory Leavers in particular will happily accept an EFTA deal as long as we are outside the EU
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Only by a tiny margin, and the leave side included scores of people who don't really care about immigration but want out of the EU. I'm one of them. If the government had offered associate membership similar to the EEA I would have been in the remain camp. But they didn't, so I had to vote to leave.
And the Remain camp included scores of people who were concerned about immigration but judged that the trade offs of being in the EU were worth it.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
I get the feeling some pb REMAINERS are so bitter about the result they want to engineer the worst outcome - leaving the Single Market - so they can point at the chaos and say Look, I was right, it's chaos. SEE.
Well fuck them. The vote was LEAVE, nothing more, nothing less. So we LEAVE, into the EEA, and the damage is minimised and our sovereignty is significantly restored.
Yes it does feel like that sometimes. The vote of 17m must be respected, but 16m must be completely ignored.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature? It'd be good to know for sure: I was in hospital for some of the campaign, so missed a fair bit.
So now we know for sure England's perennial failures are not about ability. It's organisation, focus, guts and calm.
Good for the Welsh. Just fantastic.
Yes, it was never talent. As I said after the Iceland debacle, there's something wrong with the mentality - plus a history of failure which weighs heavy on a supposedly "major" football nation. A great coach could fix much of that.
England always seem to be 11 players who've just met. Wales, Iceland etc is players subsuming themselves to a team system.
England had a team system through the qualifiers, they just junked it when they got to the finals.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
We had a stupid campaign. Leave constantly said we could have single market access. I get people want to control immigration, but they don't want to crash the economy either.
Welcome Mr Odin. We are grateful for you taking time to slum it on here rather than Valhalla. And for the anecdote about Mr Corbyn. Really not sure what is going to change his zen-like equilibrium....
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature?
JJ let it go. The result was 52:48.
That means: leave, but being reasonable to the 48%, to the EEA/EFTA. Most leavers will accept this.
If the results had been 66:33 to leave, you could argue that we should come fully out. But that didn't happen.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Only by a tiny margin, and the leave side included scores of people who don't really care about immigration but want out of the EU. I'm one of them. If the government had offered associate membership similar to the EEA I would have been in the remain camp. But they didn't, so I had to vote to leave.
And the Remain camp included scores of people who were concerned about immigration but judged that the trade offs of being in the EU were worth it.
The economic trade offs which are still there with the EEA. Those 48% wouldn't be difficult to convince. We'll stay in the single market, stave off the doom of the last few weeks and Sterling will recover. It's like EU membership but without any of the political stuff that we don't like very much and we will only have a net contribution of about £2bn vs £10bn.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
I thought the subsequent opinion polls had shown that immigration was only the second most important issue to Leave voters?
People voted Leave because given the two options they favoured Leave over Remain. It wasn't a bloody essay question. As a Leaver, I'd have been bloody ecstatic if I'd been told the eventual option was the Norway model. Others may not have been. But you can't extrapolate what people meant from their votes by what was said in the campaigns.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
Yes, there should have been a second question on the ballot paper: if Leave wins, EFTA+EEA: Yes/No?
But since there wasn't we can't infer what the result would have been.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
I get the feeling some pb REMAINERS are so bitter about the result they want to engineer the worst outcome - leaving the Single Market - so they can point at the chaos and say Look, I was right, it's chaos. SEE.
Well fuck them. The vote was LEAVE, nothing more, nothing less. So we LEAVE, into the EEA, and the damage is minimised and our sovereignty is significantly restored.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
Again, you have touching faith in the polls. But also: how many of the respondents would have known what the EEA was?
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature? It'd be good to know for sure: I was in hospital for some of the campaign, so missed a fair bit.
That wasn't on the ballot paper though was it. You're just making stuff up to suit your flawed argument. The question was clear, it was about our EU membership and we narrowly voted to leave with 16m people voting to retain our membership and free movement.
By "coincidence", I was at Newport station early this evening, having done Gloucester to Newport for the first time, and then heading to London via Severn Tunnel Junction to Wooton Bassett Junction.
First time I've been on Welsh soil, and first Welsh train station visited, since I did the Snowdon Mountain Railway back in 1997
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
Again, you have touching faith in the polls. But also: how many of the respondents would have known what the EEA was?
If you go back and look at the poll it was explained.
I have posted about this so many times over the last few weeks and even wrote a header about it. I have been highlighting the poll ever since it was released on June 11th because it is exactly the result I want.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature? It'd be good to know for sure: I was in hospital for some of the campaign, so missed a fair bit.
That wasn't on the ballot paper though was it. You're just making stuff up to suit your flawed argument. The question was clear, it was about our EU membership and we narrowly voted to leave with 16m people voting to retain our membership and free movement.
How long did you expect the ballot paper to be, and what did you think the point of the campaigns were?
I also quite like the fact that leavers are admitting the vote was 'narrow', and that remainers should be accommodated! Quite a change of attitude in a week.
The leavers have to be the worst whinerswinners ever. You point out to some of them what they've won, and they deny they've won!
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Only by a tiny margin, and the leave side included scores of people who don't really care about immigration but want out of the EU. I'm one of them. If the government had offered associate membership similar to the EEA I would have been in the remain camp. But they didn't, so I had to vote to leave.
And the Remain camp included scores of people who were concerned about immigration but judged that the trade offs of being in the EU were worth it.
WHO FUCKING CARES
We voted LEAVE, in an advisory referendum. So we LEAVE. It is now up to our British parliament to exercise this decision to LEAVE, and LEAVE in such a fashion that is most beneficial to the entire country. Which - most agree - means EEA, with FoM if necessary
Alternatively, parliament could appoint 27 million psychoanalysts to interview all 65 million Britons, and ask them, over several years of therapy, what they really *meant* by LEAVE, then write a big book about it, which the Queen could read, and then tell us what to do.
But I doubt you want that. So please shut up.
We could just renegotiate and vote again.
The government would never have held the referendum if it thought this would be the result and it's still the case that a reformed EU would beat all the other options in an AV ballot.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
Again, you have touching faith in the polls. But also: how many of the respondents would have known what the EEA was?
YouGov had in pretty close within the MoE. They only had immigration at 42% of leave voters. Even if that's wrong, it isn't going to be so far wrong that 100% of leave voters were motivated by migration and loads on the Remain side as well.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
Again, you have touching faith in the polls. But also: how many of the respondents would have known what the EEA was?
HOW MANY OF THE VOTERS KNEW WHAT LEAVE WAS?
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Only by a tiny margin, and the leave side included scores of people who don't really care about immigration but want out of the EU. I'm one of them. If the government had offered associate membership similar to the EEA I would have been in the remain camp. But they didn't, so I had to vote to leave.
And the Remain camp included scores of people who were concerned about immigration but judged that the trade offs of being in the EU were worth it.
WHO FUCKING CARES
We voted LEAVE, in an advisory referendum. So we LEAVE. It is now up to our British parliament to exercise this decision to LEAVE, and LEAVE in such a fashion that is most beneficial to the entire country. Which - most agree - means EEA, with FoM if necessary
Alternatively, parliament could appoint 27 million psychoanalysts to interview all 65 million Britons, and ask them, over several years of therapy, what they really *meant* by LEAVE, then write a big book about it, which the Queen could read, and then tell us what to do.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
How long did you expect the ballot paper to be, and what did you think the point of the campaigns were?
I also quite like the fact that leavers are admitting the vote was 'narrow', and that remainers should be accommodated! Quite a change of attitude in a week.
The leavers have to be the worst whinerswinners ever. You point out to some of them what they've won, and they deny they've won!
We have won but half the country voted to stay. The EEA isn't EU membership as much as you seem to think it is. It is a trade agreement with the EU that gives us access and membership to the single market but nothing more. It is the right compromise for the 16m who voted to stay and the 17m who voted to leave. Pretty much every leave voter on here has been saying the 16m should be accommodated, only idiots like Farage are going around gloating as if it was a landslide.
We've a guest staying us with this weekend who lives in Hackney, when in the UK. She was banging on about how people were too stupid to understand the issues of voting Leave.
And how the people of Devon are all in-bred.
She's a friend of the wife, so I kept silent.
Went out for dinner to hear this too. Got back to the car in time to (accidentally) hear the third Welsh goal. So much for having recorded it....
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be clear about my own views, if we leave then I favour the EEA/EFTA solution in the short term, but I would rather the new administration keep open the option of renegotiating and holding a second referendum.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
As you well know: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature? It'd be good to know for sure: I was in hospital for some of the campaign, so missed a fair bit.
That wasn't on the ballot paper though was it. You're just making stuff up to suit your flawed argument. The question was clear, it was about our EU membership and we narrowly voted to leave with 16m people voting to retain our membership and free movement.
How long did you expect the ballot paper to be, and what did you think the point of the campaigns were?
I also quite like the fact that leavers are admitting the vote was 'narrow', and that remainers should be accommodated! Quite a change of attitude in a week.
The leavers have to be the worst whinerswinners ever. You point out to some of them what they've won, and they deny they've won!
Honestly Josias, I don't recall any triumphalism on here at all. Maybe I missed it. I was a lukewarm Leaver, and so were many others. It was a tough decision and I even havered in the voting booth. I don't feel we 'won' anything.
We have to consider Scotland, London and the 48% (my home county voted 50.4% Remain). It's that simple.
We have an opportunity, it's well capable of being fucked up and that's all I'm going to worry about at the moment.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be honest Richard I would accept any solution that allowed us back into the single market (ideally with full FOM) whatever that be. If offered, I would choose to stay in the EU (and yes, sod the referendum, I have always been vocal long before the vote that I don't approve of referendums, and would say the same if we had won) but as that is not currently on the table, I would choose EEA as a decent alternative which confers upon us a great many of the same economic benefits.
does anyone here know how (if at all) opinion polls should be regulated better as they can influence the result quite a bit. on ref day when I saw the big phone leads for REMAIN I gave up campaigning which can be signigicant in a close fought contest.
The problem is anyone can do an opinion poll like a voodoo poll so might be hard to regulate.
You trust polls? Really? After what just happened? Methinks that's a classic example of hope over experience.
Mind you, at least you were honest about what you wanted.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
People want contradictory things.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes - Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No - Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Nope., Yougov specifically asked this question before the referendum. Even then 42% of Leave voters wanted the EEA solution in spite of it being pointed out to them this would mean free movement of people. 75% of Remain voters also wanted it. I am damn sure that number will have increased now we are out.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
Again, you have touching faith in the polls. But also: how many of the respondents would have known what the EEA was?
YouGov had in pretty close within the MoE. They only had immigration at 42% of leave voters. Even if that's wrong, it isn't going to be so far wrong that 100% of leave voters were motivated by migration and loads on the Remain side as well.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be clear about my own views, if we leave then I favour the EEA/EFTA solution in the short term, but I would rather the new administration keep open the option of renegotiating and holding a second referendum.
EU + reform >>> EEA/EFTA
The problem with your formula is that little word 'reform'. Even now in the face of losing one of their largest members and contributors the EU still has absolutely no interest in reform and indeed the only voices so far being raised are in favour of more rather than less EU.
Now I know you are a federalist who wants a European federal state but yours is a tiny, unloved minority view in Britain even amongst those who voted Remain. If that is the choice then I am afraid (thankfully) you are never going to see us vote to return to the EU.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
He NEVER said that, actually: Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself.[15] First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
Churchill on Democracy:
"Whatever one may think about democratic government, it is just as well to have practical experience of its rough and slatternly foundations. No part of the education of a politician is more indispensable than the fighting of elections." - In Great Contemporaries, "Lord Rosebery" (1937).
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be clear about my own views, if we leave then I favour the EEA/EFTA solution in the short term, but I would rather the new administration keep open the option of renegotiating and holding a second referendum.
48% voted to remain just now, you really think that 4% of the 52% of leave voters couldn't be convinced by the EEA argument. Most Tories I know voted to leave on the sovereignty argument. I don't doubt that immigration was a major driver of votes, but only half of leave voters listed it as the primary one. There is no mandate to ignore 16m people who voted to stay in the EU and single market and to retain free movement, this was nowhere near a landslide. You come across as bitter that you votes to remain at this point despite having been a leave supporter all the way through.
You have a strange contempt for democracy. Vote and vote again until you get the answer you want. In fact, it's just what many people were rightly complaining about the EU doing!
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
I'll ask again, what was the question on the ballot paper?
I get the feeling some pb REMAINERS are so bitter about the result they want to engineer the worst outcome - leaving the Single Market - so they can point at the chaos and say Look, I was right, it's chaos. SEE.
Well fuck them. The vote was LEAVE, nothing more, nothing less. So we LEAVE, into the EEA, and the damage is minimised and our sovereignty is significantly restored.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
Indeed, most remainers are coming around now that the shock of it all is wearing off. Going by the most outraged remainers on my Facebook (I was relatively calm compared to them!) who were sharing the petition and calling for the abolition of democracy type statuses, most have switched track and realized that the EEA is an acceptable second best. If May does it right she could genuinely manage a semblance of unity in the country afterwards.
I get the anger about leaves manipulative campaign. But insisting on completely out is ridiculous and self destructive.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be honest Richard I would accept any solution that allowed us back into the single market (ideally with full FOM) whatever that be. If offered, I would choose to stay in the EU (and yes, sod the referendum, I have always been vocal long before the vote that I don't approve of referendums, and would say the same if we had won) but as that is not currently on the table, I would choose EEA as a decent alternative which confers upon us a great many of the same economic benefits.
I'm too young to remember, but EFTA+EEA looks to me rather like the economic arrangement that we thought we were voting for in 1975.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
From the man who wanted to drop poison gas on Arab tribesmen I would suggest that is hardly a great argument against democracy.
Another busy day and after a prolonged visit to the Gelato Festival at Spitalfields, home to try and catch up on the various political nonsense.
Interesting to see one or two Conservatives on here seemingly advocating a coronation for the Blessed Theresa. Not entirely convinced by that - the Conservatives haven't shed nearly enough blood in the last few weeks. More is required.
Theresa is clearly the hope of the "stern unbending Remainers" who see Article 50 kicked further into the long grass than a decision on airport expansion.
I realise I'm in a minority but there's an awful lot of fudge (even more than at the Gelato Festival) coming from those regretting voting Leave who seem to want to basically stay in the EU via the EEA.
For me, out means out, no single market, control of the borders and Swiss-style bilateral deals with the EU through our EFTA membership. This is unless we can get an end to Freedom of Movement while retaining the Single Market.
Honestly Josias, I don't recall any triumphalism on here at all. Maybe I missed it. I was a lukewarm Leaver, and so were many others. It was a tough decision and I even havered in the voting booth. I don't feel we 'won' anything.
We have to consider Scotland, London and the 48% (my home county voted 50.4% Remain). It's that simple.
We have an opportunity, it's well capable of being fucked up and that's all I'm going to worry about at the moment.
I haven't been reading PB continuously, but when I have leavers were all over the place about remainers being bad losers. A good idea might be to do a grep for 'remainders'.
Now we see leavers being bad winners. "No!" they screech. "That's not what we meant (oh, except for those of us that did mean it)."
If it was going to be EEA/EFTA, the campaign(s) should have said as much. I gather from the tumbleweed-like response to my repeated question that they did not.
I agree with this. The lack of pragmatism is insane, embarrassing, and negligent on a grand scale. I don't think Josias is in any way typical of Remainers however, most of whom, like Leave's sensible wing, are looking to find an amicable compromise that won't fuck up our own country for a generation.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
The problem is of course that there are a hard core of people (I am not including you in this) who genuinely want Brexit to fail and for us to go crawling back to the EU begging to be let back in. As such the EFTA route is a direct threat to their hopes and dreams so they have to trash it either by saying it can't happen or that the public would never accept it.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
To be honest Richard I would accept any solution that allowed us back into the single market (ideally with full FOM) whatever that be. If offered, I would choose to stay in the EU (and yes, sod the referendum, I have always been vocal long before the vote that I don't approve of referendums, and would say the same if we had won) but as that is not currently on the table, I would choose EEA as a decent alternative which confers upon us a great many of the same economic benefits.
I'm too young to remember, but EFTA+EEA looks to me rather like the economic arrangement that we thought we were voting for in 1975.
It's the economic arrangement we left in order to join the federal project in 1973.
Evening all For me, out means out, no single market, control of the borders and Swiss-style bilateral deals with the EU through our EFTA membership. This is unless we can get an end to Freedom of Movement while retaining the Single Market.
Another busy day and after a prolonged visit to the Gelato Festival at Spitalfields, home to try and catch up on the various political nonsense.
Interesting to see one or two Conservatives on here seemingly advocating a coronation for the Blessed Theresa. Not entirely convinced by that - the Conservatives haven't shed nearly enough blood in the last few weeks. More is required.
Theresa is clearly the hope of the "stern unbending Remainers" who see Article 50 kicked further into the long grass than a decision on airport expansion.
I realise I'm in a minority but there's an awful lot of fudge (even more than at the Gelato Festival) coming from those regretting voting Leave who seem to want to basically stay in the EU via the EEA.
For me, out means out, no single market, control of the borders and Swiss-style bilateral deals with the EU through our EFTA membership. This is unless we can get an end to Freedom of Movement while retaining the Single Market.
The huge disadvantage of your final paragraph would be that Sean would have a nervous breakdown RIGHT HERE ON PB and we would never be able to live with ourselves afterwards.
Do you want to pay that heavy price and deprive the world of the upcoming mega-hit 'The Water Baby'? Well, do you?
That's true, and as far as I know I have yet to receive from Leavers a reply to my counterfactual below about the day the government held a referendum on entering a European superstate, which turned a narrow Yes against all expectations. A few months later, following an economic shock, public opinion had turned against the idea, and the government hadn't yet triggered (the fictional) Article 51.......
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
From the man who wanted to drop poison gas on Arab tribesmen I would suggest that is hardly a great argument against democracy.
He never said that
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
That's true, and as far as I know I have yet to receive from Leavers a reply to my counterfactual below about the day the government held a referendum on entering a European superstate, which turned a narrow Yes against all expectations. A few months later, following an economic shock, public opinion had turned against the idea, and the government hadn't yet triggered (the fictional) Article 51.......
What to do next?
Unfortunately we'd be stuffed as there isn't a middle way to that. This time there is. We must take the chance.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
Ha!
He NEVER EVER said that!
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
We need a fair and manageable immigration system, which is far from what we have at present. It makes no sense that anyone from eastern Europe can come and look for work here, and get a job and settle here, no questions asked, whilst someone from other countries, many of which we have traditional connections with (unlike Latvia and Romania!), cannot. What's worse, because of free movement from Europe, the government has been forced to tighten the rules for other countries to a ridiculous extent. And something that's been very sad to see is that the EU flood has made us think twice about accepting refugees - a shameful but understandable position.
So, you may ask, why did I vote to Remain? Well, as Juncker said the other day, "If you are in, you can try to change the rules." If you're out, you can't. I suppose I'm being a bit naive, but there have been signs that EU countries have been willing to look at free movement. If we leave we have no say in the EU's rules, and yet we might have to accept them in order to sell our goods there tariff-free. And there are many Tory MPs that are happy to do this. I think that it's slowly dawning on many Leave voters that they've been sold a pup.
"Whatever one may think about democratic government, it is just as well to have practical experience of its rough and slatternly foundations. No part of the education of a politician is more indispensable than the fighting of elections." - In Great Contemporaries, "Lord Rosebery" (1937).
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
From the man who wanted to drop poison gas on Arab tribesmen I would suggest that is hardly a great argument against democracy.
He never said that
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
He still wanted to bomb the Arabs with poison gas though. I am afraid that for all his qualities as a wartime leader and his many undoubted qualities I don't find Churchill to be a man to be greatly admired.
Another busy day and after a prolonged visit to the Gelato Festival at Spitalfields, home to try and catch up on the various political nonsense.
Interesting to see one or two Conservatives on here seemingly advocating a coronation for the Blessed Theresa. Not entirely convinced by that - the Conservatives haven't shed nearly enough blood in the last few weeks. More is required.
Theresa is clearly the hope of the "stern unbending Remainers" who see Article 50 kicked further into the long grass than a decision on airport expansion.
I realise I'm in a minority but there's an awful lot of fudge (even more than at the Gelato Festival) coming from those regretting voting Leave who seem to want to basically stay in the EU via the EEA.
For me, out means out, no single market, control of the borders and Swiss-style bilateral deals with the EU through our EFTA membership. This is unless we can get an end to Freedom of Movement while retaining the Single Market.
That may have happened if it was a Theresa Boris final, but Gove's slaying of Boris means Theresa can't afford to dodge brexiting now. They will have to invoke article 50. But she is definitely the safe EEA candidate.
Would the EU really be interested in giving us that bilateral option though, I doubt it. Would be giving us too much of what we want. Switzerland profited like we did by having a special status from the get go. Just like Italy can't now say they want out of the euro and schengen but in on all else like we have, we won't be able to get the same as Switzerland (who's relationship with the EU is pretty poor at the moment anyway)
The options will be; EEA off the shelf EEA lite - Financial trade offs for FoM controls/quotas WTO rules, maybe a Canada deal down the line.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
From the man who wanted to drop poison gas on Arab tribesmen I would suggest that is hardly a great argument against democracy.
He never said that
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
He still wanted to bomb the Arabs with poison gas though. I am afraid that for all his qualities as a wartime leader and his many undoubted qualities I don't find Churchill to be a man to be greatly admired.
Churchill had some terribly bad and hair brained ideas. He must have been hell to manage.
The Mail seemingly think it will all be over by next weekend....which would be awful for May. She cannot just inherit the role, she has to fight for it otherwise she starts off like Brown and when she makes a mis-step in a few years (if she gets the job) it rears its ugly head again. There needs to be a good clean fight and a clear winner, no messing around with backroom deals.
Yes, to be clear I am in now way condoning the Leave campaign, quite the opposite. It was mendacious and divisive and is a good candidate for being the most racist national election campaign in British political history. It was also dishonest and misleading. But it won, so now we must repair the damage.
That's true, and as far as I know I have yet to receive from Leavers a reply to my counterfactual below about the day the government held a referendum on entering a European superstate, which turned a narrow Yes against all expectations. A few months later, following an economic shock, public opinion had turned against the idea, and the government hadn't yet triggered (the fictional) Article 51.......
What to do next?
No point replying because it is such a ludicrous idea that it is not something worth considering.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
Most voters are intelligent enough to understand what the leave campaigns were saying about immigration.
In five or ten years'time, the man on the Mansfield Omnibus will notice the Mail/ Sun / Telegraph blaming something or other on the fact that immigration has not been tackled "despite our voting to stop it". And hence immigrants will continue to be blamed. Add in: "we're still giving £100 million a week to Brussels" (or whatever we'll pay for membership) and this whole damned mess will continue.
Sadly, leave means leave. If someone didn't want to leave, they should have voted for remain. Anyone who campaigned for leave wanting this fudge is a dangerous pedlar of bait-and-switch.
Hilarious Newnighting. Burnley pub crowd generally pro Leave for entirely respectable reasons. Pundit in the studio is Ishiguro; what he has to say is that this is a dangerous time and we should worry about the far right.
Well done Wales. Your success goes to prove wrong those who bemoan the supposed excess of foreigners in the English game as the reason for England's lack of success.
The BBC had a piece during the build up to the game, talking about whether it was the English game's set up that was hurting them and if improving the academy system and coaching would help.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” Winston Churchill
From the man who wanted to drop poison gas on Arab tribesmen I would suggest that is hardly a great argument against democracy.
He never said that
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
He still wanted to bomb the Arabs with poison gas though. I am afraid that for all his qualities as a wartime leader and his many undoubted qualities I don't find Churchill to be a man to be greatly admired.
Churchill had some terribly bad and hair brained ideas. He must have been hell to manage.
Comments
But he'll be available for the final...
And even if you are right, you are ignoring the harm ignoring immigration will do because of the vast numbers it did matter to.
As it happens: I'm not bitter. I said on the Friday morning after the vote that I accepted the result. It's so-called 'leavers' like you who are bitter. Oh, and you also mix up 'supporter' and 'voter'. They're not the same.
- Access to single market - Landslide for Yes
- Uncontrolled immigration - Landslide for No
- Contibute but have no say in decisions - Landslide for No
We've just had a campaign and on balance people have voted that the benefits of being in don't outweigh the loss of control of immigration. Any interpretation of the result as support for the EEA option is nonsense.
Two of my nephews are engaged to foreign girls and I would be gutted if some arseholes thought that Brexit meant it was open season for abusing (or worse) immigrants.
I'm going to repeat that it seems self evident to me that many immigrants choose the UK because by and large the British are a friendly, welcoming and tolerant bunch.
We've mostly A8/A2 immigrants round here and everyone rubs along pretty nicely. Of course, I'm in a rural area, it might be different in the cities.
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/restoring_public_trust_in_immigration_policy_a_points_based_non_discriminatory_immigration_system
But congratulations to Wales. A great win.
No Portugal will be favourites, not least because Wales will miss Davies and Ramsay through suspension.
Then pointed out that the entire Welsh team came through the English system.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/andrea-leadsom-emerges-as-pro-brexit-choice-for-tory-leadership/
Arf!
The Dragon breaths fire, Daenerys will be pleased.
So it is you who are spouting nonsense.
The follow-up question should be: "What does leave mean in practice?" And that's where your answer to the question is not what was sold to the public.
So I'll ask you again: where were the EEA or EFTA mentioned on leave campaign's literature? It'd be good to know for sure: I was in hospital for some of the campaign, so missed a fair bit.
JJ let it go. The result was 52:48.
That means: leave, but being reasonable to the 48%, to the EEA/EFTA. Most leavers will accept this.
If the results had been 66:33 to leave, you could argue that we should come fully out. But that didn't happen.
People voted Leave because given the two options they favoured Leave over Remain. It wasn't a bloody essay question. As a Leaver, I'd have been bloody ecstatic if I'd been told the eventual option was the Norway model. Others may not have been. But you can't extrapolate what people meant from their votes by what was said in the campaigns.
But since there wasn't we can't infer what the result would have been.
EEA is the way forward. Now can we just get on with it, before the entire UK plunges down a sinkhole?
Well done to Wales, they played magnificently!
By "coincidence", I was at Newport station early this evening, having done Gloucester to Newport for the first time, and then heading to London via Severn Tunnel Junction to Wooton Bassett Junction.
First time I've been on Welsh soil, and first Welsh train station visited, since I did the Snowdon Mountain Railway back in 1997
Summary:
Wales votes to leave the European Union by a majority of just over 5%
22 local authority areas in Wales - 17 vote Leave, five vote Remain
I have posted about this so many times over the last few weeks and even wrote a header about it. I have been highlighting the poll ever since it was released on June 11th because it is exactly the result I want.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-36687193
I also quite like the fact that leavers are admitting the vote was 'narrow', and that remainers should be accommodated! Quite a change of attitude in a week.
The leavers have to be the worst whinerswinners ever. You point out to some of them what they've won, and they deny they've won!
The government would never have held the referendum if it thought this would be the result and it's still the case that a reformed EU would beat all the other options in an AV ballot.
You're wrong, give it up.
Most voters are – in political terms – idiots. They know about as much about the EU as I do about the Swedish netball team. Yet such is the nature of referendums – ignorant people vote on something they don't understand, for spurious reasons, based on a vacuum of accurate information.
Yet the people have voted, so now we must make the best of it rather than cut our noses of to spite our face. EEA+ECJ+ECHR+EFTA+FreeE-cstasy is the sensible route, despite the fact the man on the Mansfield omnibus will notice almost no difference.
Such is life.
Sooner or later they are going to have to face up to the fact that we are leaving the EU and none of their desperate attempts to undermine it are going to work.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14593973.Jeremy_Corbyn_appoints_English_MP_Dave_Anderson_as_new_shadow_Scottish_Secretary/
Makes sense to lump them all together, I suppose...
And how the people of Devon are all in-bred.
She's a friend of the wife, so I kept silent.
Went out for dinner to hear this too. Got back to the car in time to (accidentally) hear the third Welsh goal. So much for having recorded it....
EU + reform >>> EEA/EFTA
We have to consider Scotland, London and the 48% (my home county voted 50.4% Remain). It's that simple.
We have an opportunity, it's well capable of being fucked up and that's all I'm going to worry about at the moment.
The problem is anyone can do an opinion poll like a voodoo poll so might be hard to regulate.
I think we're not going to agree.
Now I know you are a federalist who wants a European federal state but yours is a tiny, unloved minority view in Britain even amongst those who voted Remain. If that is the choice then I am afraid (thankfully) you are never going to see us vote to return to the EU.
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself.[15] First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
Churchill on Democracy:
"Whatever one may think about democratic government, it is just as well to have practical experience of its rough and slatternly foundations. No part of the education of a politician is more indispensable than the fighting of elections."
- In Great Contemporaries, "Lord Rosebery" (1937).
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
- Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
I get the anger about leaves manipulative campaign. But insisting on completely out is ridiculous and self destructive.
Another busy day and after a prolonged visit to the Gelato Festival at Spitalfields, home to try and catch up on the various political nonsense.
Interesting to see one or two Conservatives on here seemingly advocating a coronation for the Blessed Theresa. Not entirely convinced by that - the Conservatives haven't shed nearly enough blood in the last few weeks. More is required.
Theresa is clearly the hope of the "stern unbending Remainers" who see Article 50 kicked further into the long grass than a decision on airport expansion.
I realise I'm in a minority but there's an awful lot of fudge (even more than at the Gelato Festival) coming from those regretting voting Leave who seem to want to basically stay in the EU via the EEA.
For me, out means out, no single market, control of the borders and Swiss-style bilateral deals with the EU through our EFTA membership. This is unless we can get an end to Freedom of Movement while retaining the Single Market.
Now we see leavers being bad winners. "No!" they screech. "That's not what we meant (oh, except for those of us that did mean it)."
If it was going to be EEA/EFTA, the campaign(s) should have said as much. I gather from the tumbleweed-like response to my repeated question that they did not.
Do you want to pay that heavy price and deprive the world of the upcoming mega-hit 'The Water Baby'? Well, do you?
@stephenkb: The write-up of Michael Gove's launch in tomorrow's Mail is brutal. Corbyn has got better clips from the Mail.
That's true, and as far as I know I have yet to receive from Leavers a reply to my counterfactual below about the day the government held a referendum on entering a European superstate, which turned a narrow Yes against all expectations. A few months later, following an economic shock, public opinion had turned against the idea, and the government hadn't yet triggered (the fictional) Article 51.......
What to do next?
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Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
Attribution debunked in Langworth's Churchill by Himself. First known appearance is in a 1992 usenet post.
So, you may ask, why did I vote to Remain? Well, as Juncker said the other day, "If you are in, you can try to change the rules." If you're out, you can't. I suppose I'm being a bit naive, but there have been signs that EU countries have been willing to look at free movement. If we leave we have no say in the EU's rules, and yet we might have to accept them in order to sell our goods there tariff-free. And there are many Tory MPs that are happy to do this. I think that it's slowly dawning on many Leave voters that they've been sold a pup.
"Whatever one may think about democratic government, it is just as well to have practical experience of its rough and slatternly foundations. No part of the education of a politician is more indispensable than the fighting of elections."
- In Great Contemporaries, "Lord Rosebery" (1937).
"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
- Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
Would the EU really be interested in giving us that bilateral option though, I doubt it. Would be giving us too much of what we want. Switzerland profited like we did by having a special status from the get go. Just like Italy can't now say they want out of the euro and schengen but in on all else like we have, we won't be able to get the same as Switzerland (who's relationship with the EU is pretty poor at the moment anyway)
The options will be;
EEA off the shelf
EEA lite - Financial trade offs for FoM controls/quotas
WTO rules, maybe a Canada deal down the line.
There needs to be a good clean fight and a clear winner, no messing around with backroom deals.
Yes, to be clear I am in now way condoning the Leave campaign, quite the opposite. It was mendacious and divisive and is a good candidate for being the most racist national election campaign in British political history. It was also dishonest and misleading. But it won, so now we must repair the damage.
In five or ten years'time, the man on the Mansfield Omnibus will notice the Mail/ Sun / Telegraph blaming something or other on the fact that immigration has not been tackled "despite our voting to stop it". And hence immigrants will continue to be blamed. Add in: "we're still giving £100 million a week to Brussels" (or whatever we'll pay for membership) and this whole damned mess will continue.
Sadly, leave means leave. If someone didn't want to leave, they should have voted for remain. Anyone who campaigned for leave wanting this fudge is a dangerous pedlar of bait-and-switch.
Oh, and a second referendum.
Good grief - no wonder Remain lost.