Ruth just improved her party's fortunes for the first time in 30 years on the back of a single platform - stand up for the Union. It has been totally undermined and her position is holed below the waterline.
If the EU tells Scotland it needs to be Independent to negotiate, then that is only good for Nicola. It means Independence is no longer a choice but a requirement. A requirement. It is also one likely to be supported with a heavy Yes vote.
There is no scenario where Brexit is good for Ruth. And in all scenarios Brexit is good for Nicola.
What's your view as to the SNP position on something like EFTA/EEA with FOMTW (Freedom of movement to work)? Good enough? Or not good enough?
I should add that I fully support the idea of an independent Scotland, so this isn't some kind of Internet Point scoring exercise. We don't have much Scottish representation on here these days.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
FPT
The best realistic deal, by some distance, and leaving aside discussions of democracy and sovereignty , is the only one that is off the table: full membership of the EU. There is no reason for the best deal to be off the table except it was rejected in a ballot. It is difficult for Remainers to be involved in planning the future because they can only propose solutions that they know to be inferior.
It's not necessarily a case of being bitter and not accepting they lost.
Along with Shengen, border posts at Berwick and the Euro
Still not entirely convinced Nicola can sell that
At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc. It is also a reasonable argument that there will be no border with Ireland or Scotland after Brexit.
Whether you believe that to be true or not is largely irrelevant. It is credible which is all it appears to need to be to get the necessary numbers to back Yes. As the EU are refusing to pre-negociate, that actually makes it easier for Nicola.
FYI, the border arguement was always one of the most fatuous and laughable because the example of Ireland already existed. Even No votes never believed it.
Leadsom is in favour of Heathrow and Gatwick expansion. (LBC interview today)
Given a way the whole country is going to become a desolate, post apocalyptic back-water, we'll probably have to mothball Heathrow and Gatwick nevermind expand them...
Yes but we'll need the airports for all the Remainers that are fleeing this racist cesspit.
I am still majorly hacked off in that I, my parents and my nephew will not have an opportunity to vote for Boris in the forthcoming Tory leader elections. It was all so unnecessary by Gove and looking at the latest odds it has scuppered his chances anyway. Leadsom will get our consolation votes but May looks like a shoo-in.
@tombradby: I wonder if Boris will, one way or another, end up on Top Gear...
Boris is only 52. If May becomes PM he could still achieve the top job with several years of solid Cabinet experience behind him.
No, it's over for Boris. And it's all over for the Etononians leading the Tory Party as well, I think. After May/Leadsom they'll skip a generation and look for someone from more "modest" roots, IMO. In the end these posh boys are just too nasty...
All 5 Leadership contenders came from the state sector for their secondary education AFAIK.
No, Gove was a student at Robert Gordon as a scholarship boy.
@JohnO the Dark Knight Rises features a character called Bane, who shouts 'Take control' just before committing some mad act of terrorism or extortion. I was suggesting that Leadsom's use of the cry may have been inspired by it, although I was probably harsh!
Bane also said:
"Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you!"
At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership,
The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left. "First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.
After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete. A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate. The Canadian agreement will also require ratification by all EU countries, adding another one to two years before it takes effect. ...
Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU. Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years - a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit. ... [E]ven a Norway-style single market access deal, they caution, could take years to negotiate, leaving the UK trading on WTO terms in the meantime.
What's the political upshot here? I'd be astonished if Germany, in particular, was looking forward to the idea of Britain sitting there on WTO terms for years, and if the new government wants to take the EEA route would rather maintain seamless continuity of Britain's membership of the single market rather than kick us out it via our EU exit then take us back into the EEA years later.
Does this all have any implications for the argument over a Swiss/ Norwegian / Canadian style deal?
Ruth just improved her party's fortunes for the first time in 30 years on the back of a single platform - stand up for the Union. It has been totally undermined and her position is holed below the waterline.
If the EU tells Scotland it needs to be Independent to negotiate, then that is only good for Nicola. It means Independence is no longer a choice but a requirement. A requirement. It is also one likely to be supported with a heavy Yes vote.
There is no scenario where Brexit is good for Ruth. And in all scenarios Brexit is good for Nicola.
What's your view as to the SNP position on something like EFTA/EEA with FOMTW (Freedom of movement to work)? Good enough? Or not good enough?
I should add that I fully support the idea of an independent Scotland, so this isn't some kind of Internet Point scoring exercise. We don't have much Scottish representation on here these days.
After Independence is achieved I would vote no to EU membership (if it is not already in place) and yes to a full Norwegian/Icelandic EEA deal. I don't agree with the SNP but Independence is more important than the actual choice between EEA and full EU membership.
The most important thing is to curtail the drain on Scotland's wealth and people which can only be achieved by Independence.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
What would it take for the Brexiteers to throw in their cards? How much economic turbulence, unemployment, market chaos and currency depression would it take before they thought, 'you know what, it just ain't worth it'. What's the threshold? If so, what is it?
For me nothing that is at all likely to happen.
Nor me, actually Richard. I am not predicting that. However, I am talking hypothetically, wondering where the threshold is...
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
FPT
The best realistic deal, by some distance, and leaving aside discussions of democracy and sovereignty , is the only one that is off the table: full membership of the EU. There is no reason for the best deal to be off the table except it was rejected in a ballot. It is difficult for Remainers to be involved in planning the future because they can only propose solutions that they know to be inferior.
It's not necessarily a case of being bitter and not accepting they lost.
The best case for a complete collapse of the democratic system in the UK and probably anarchy. Who will bother with the democratic system if it can be ignored in such a way?
Corbyn winning the war with the MP's where it matters.
If he does impose a deselection process he is going to have a turnover of MP's that would make Putin blush, where is he going to find these sacrificial lambs? And if he gets his followers to do it, how long before one of them says something massively stupid, or just plain acts like Ken?
Well quite, and that's even if their CLPs would deselect rebels, which is far from certain. In many cases local MPs, while to the right of their CLPs, are hardworking and appreciated.
Surely he knows the game is up?
The game is up for the rebel MPs.
They have thrown all they have at Corbyn but he remains.
The rebels dare not make a democratic challenge because they know they will lose the vote of members.
There is no reason for the best deal to be off the table except it was rejected in a ballot.
I'm sure you didn't mean it quite that way, but that sounds almost like a doctor saying, 'this young man is in perfect health apart from the broken neck that killed him.'
(I am not comparing Brexit to a broken neck, btw!)
Ruth just improved her party's fortunes for the first time in 30 years on the back of a single platform - stand up for the Union. It has been totally undermined and her position is holed below the waterline.
If the EU tells Scotland it needs to be Independent to negotiate, then that is only good for Nicola. It means Independence is no longer a choice but a requirement. A requirement. It is also one likely to be supported with a heavy Yes vote.
There is no scenario where Brexit is good for Ruth. And in all scenarios Brexit is good for Nicola.
I mentioned this in a comment earlier to someone else today - there is a point to be made that the economic case is potentially weaker with brexit (there are valid concerns over losing single market with rUK etc), but on all other fronts the case is much stronger, and the opposition will be much weaker than indyref1. Labour and LDs will be neutral or maybe even pro-indy. Newspapers dropping opposition to indy. Who will actually make the case for the union, only Ruth, who is taking the blame for brexit (a little unfairly as she was a good campaigner for remain but hey ho). There will be no joint up better together campaign this time.
Crucially, any lingering unionist sentiment can be countered by saying "the english knew full well the risks to the union that arose from a leave vote and went ahead and voted anyway, they don't really care about Scotland".
Economics alone clearly can't win referendums, so while there are still hurdles over currency etc, this is definitely Nicola's moment, the stars won't align any better for her.
Newington is interesting to see if the ukip in by-elections trend is bucked,possible LibDem gain in Leatherhead North and who would be poor Maahwish Mirza in Luton where too much attention will inevitably be placed by those on one side or another of the current Labour debate.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
Yes with the very sensible May looking good for PM we do seem to be heading towards patching up the decision (rightly) but as you say it feels like emotionally we have lost a great deal, even though what we end up with will be most likely not feel much different on the ground.
I suspect when calm waters eventually return we'll wonder why we bothered.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
Economics alone clearly can't win referendums, so while there are still hurdles over currency etc, this is definitely Nicola's moment, the stars won't align any better for her.
To be fair, people said the stars would never align better than they did in 2014. And look where we are now!
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
That was not said yesterday.
Spain and France said that Scotland is not competent to discuss any deals with the EU before it is Independent. The very fact Rajoy did NOT mention vetoing an application by an Independent Scotland was a HUGE advance over previous statements.
That's the point. Again, like everything else, it merely makes Independence inevitable.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
That was not said yesterday.
Spain and France said that Scotland is not competent to discuss any deals with the EU before it is Independent. The very fact Rajoy did NOT mention vetoing an application by an Independent Scotland was a HUGE advance over previous statements.
That's the point. Again, like everything else, it merely makes Independence inevitable.
He stood up and said that if the whole UK leaves then Scotland leaves too.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
What would it take for the Brexiteers to throw in their cards? How much economic turbulence, unemployment, market chaos and currency depression would it take before they thought, 'you know what, it just ain't worth it'. What's the threshold? If so, what is it?
For me nothing that is at all likely to happen.
Nor me, actually Richard. I am not predicting that. However, I am talking hypothetically, wondering where the threshold is...
Well Carney talking of interest rates cuts is really quite frightening.
Richard- how much of our economic prosperity is acceptable to pay for Brexit. I reckon after modest growth this quarter we'll have maybe 3 or 4 quarters of negative growth, reducing our GDP by about 6% from now, and about 10-12% where it should have been without this self inflicted injury. And then a couple of years of sluggish growth after- so maybe between 15-20% national cost to pay for Brexit.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
That was not said yesterday.
Spain and France said that Scotland is not competent to discuss any deals with the EU before it is Independent. The very fact Rajoy did NOT mention vetoing an application by an Independent Scotland was a HUGE advance over previous statements.
That's the point. Again, like everything else, it merely makes Independence inevitable.
He stood up and said that if the whole UK leaves then Scotland leaves too.
Sounds pretty unequivocal.
Yes but he didn't say he would veto Scotland's application as I understood it.
So according to The Times, last Friday Boris was offering to pull out of the Tory race and back Theresa May if she agreed to stand down before the 2020 general election.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
No it really hasn't. You really are far too fixated on one backward outdated means of improving the world. It was always bound to failure as it was based primarily on protectionism and fear of the rest of the world. It really is sad you can't see that.
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
So a third poster has a third different interpretation of what Rajoy said.
That only emphasises my point. Nicola only needs a credible objection to claims by whatever coalition No can form. She has that, whether people like it or not. Ruth lacks any cast iron argument, the only known known is that Scotland is out the EU if it remains in the UK as things stand.
All these undead remainers wailing about HOW MUCH POVERTY AND PESTILIENCE WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO GIVE UP?? What, are you placing an order or something? Is being in the EU some sort of haven from recession - I've not noticed. You don't seem to get it. Our problems are now our problems, and our solutions are now our solutions.
Corbyn winning the war with the MP's where it matters.
If he does impose a deselection process he is going to have a turnover of MP's that would make Putin blush, where is he going to find these sacrificial lambs? And if he gets his followers to do it, how long before one of them says something massively stupid, or just plain acts like Ken?
Well quite, and that's even if their CLPs would deselect rebels, which is far from certain. In many cases local MPs, while to the right of their CLPs, are hardworking and appreciated.
Surely he knows the game is up?
The game is up for the rebel MPs.
They have thrown all they have at Corbyn but he remains.
The rebels dare not make a democratic challenge because they know they will lose the vote of members.
I note 6 Chesterfield Councillors have come out pro Corbyn
None on list calling for him to go.
Could be an interesting meeting next week for our MP
Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels, a former senior adviser to the European Commission (EC) has disclosed.
As the Press Association reports, Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.
She urged MSPs to hold a second independence referendum by summer 2017 at the latest, if it is judged to be in the best interests of Scotland, to allow the EU to start work on these transitional arrangements.
However, she warned the EU “does not want a mini-UK” and said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.
The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left. "First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.
After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete. A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate. The Canadian agreement will also require ratification by all EU countries, adding another one to two years before it takes effect. ...
Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU. Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years - a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit. ... [E]ven a Norway-style single market access deal, they caution, could take years to negotiate, leaving the UK trading on WTO terms in the meantime.
What's the political upshot here? I'd be astonished if Germany, in particular, was looking forward to the idea of Britain sitting there on WTO terms for years, and if the new government wants to take the EEA route would rather maintain seamless continuity of Britain's membership of the single market rather than kick us out it via our EU exit then take us back into the EEA years later.
Does this all have any implications for the argument over a Swiss/ Norwegian / Canadian style deal?
I honestly don't know the implications of this stance. We tend to talk about trade with the 'EU', when of course, in practice the bulk of our trade is with a small number of countries - all the usual suspects: Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium and Sweden.
As we run a hefty trade deficit with the EU (though a modest services surplus), this would put a definite crimp into those main partners. We're Germany's #3 export market, for example.
So according to The Times, last Friday Boris was offering to pull out of the Tory race and back Theresa May if she agreed to stand down before the 2020 general election.
Well, Boris has kept his side of the bargain – will Theresa May?
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
Spain will not agree to Scotland being treated by the EU any differently from the UK - either leaving or joining.
This is because Spain does not want to do anything to encourage Catalonia (Barcelona) to obtain independence from Spain.
Good point. With the EU credit rating being downgraded today and the EU fighting fires all over the place the question is when will the EU'ers give up.
All these undead remainers wailing about HOW MUCH POVERTY AND PESTILIENCE WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO GIVE UP?? What, are you placing an order or something? Is being in the EU some sort of haven from recession - I've not noticed. You don't seem to get it. Our problems are now our problems, and our solutions are now our solutions.
I've just noticed that Theresa May doesn't pronounce the word police properly. She pronounces it 'plice' and drops the 'o'. Unfit to be PM.
Isn't that how most people pronounce it?
Pu-lease
Rather than Po-lease or Pol-is
?
She pronounces it like Fleece, pleece. I didn't think that was the normal way to pronounce it - I pronounce it pu-lease, more emphasis on the o/uh sound. Maybe i'm the one unfit to be PM then...
The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left. "First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.
After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete. A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate. The Canadian agreement will also require ratification by all EU countries, adding another one to two years before it takes effect. ...
Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU. Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years - a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit. ... [E]ven a Norway-style single market access deal, they caution, could take years to negotiate, leaving the UK trading on WTO terms in the meantime.
What's the political upshot here? I'd be astonished if Germany, in particular, was looking forward to the idea of Britain sitting there on WTO terms for years, and if the new government wants to take the EEA route would rather maintain seamless continuity of Britain's membership of the single market rather than kick us out it via our EU exit then take us back into the EEA years later.
Does this all have any implications for the argument over a Swiss/ Norwegian / Canadian style deal?
I don't understand why the BBC is taking all these statements at face value. They are opening negotiating positions.
The two sides will talk and agree something that is to their mutual advantage.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
No it really hasn't. You really are far too fixated on one backward outdated means of improving the world. It was always bound to failure as it was based primarily on protectionism and fear of the rest of the world. It really is sad you can't see that.
I told one of my Corbynite friends today...when he looks at Corbyn, he must wear some kind of illusory glasses that turns Corbyn into JFK, such is his distortion from reality and logic.
I suspect you Brexiters have similar, illusory glasses that makes you see England as this wonderful prosperous country outside the UK.
You Brexiters and Corbynites....ideologues, the pair of you. You deserve each other.
Spain will not agree to Scotland being treated by the EU any differently from the UK - either leaving or joining.
This is because Spain does not want to do anything to encourage Catalonia (Barcelona) to obtain independence from Spain.
Spain has to choose between trying to pass Scotland joining the EU as different to Catalunya (which is possible) and giving up on the CFP which would collapse without Scotland's waters.
That is probably what is behind Rajoy refusing to mention the veto yesterday. I see a clear signal there, YMMV.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
What would it take for the Brexiteers to throw in their cards? How much economic turbulence, unemployment, market chaos and currency depression would it take before they thought, 'you know what, it just ain't worth it'. What's the threshold? If so, what is it?
For me nothing that is at all likely to happen.
Nor me, actually Richard. I am not predicting that. However, I am talking hypothetically, wondering where the threshold is...
Well Carney talking of interest rates cuts is really quite frightening.
Richard- how much of our economic prosperity is acceptable to pay for Brexit. I reckon after modest growth this quarter we'll have maybe 3 or 4 quarters of negative growth, reducing our GDP by about 6% from now, and about 10-12% where it should have been without this self inflicted injury. And then a couple of years of sluggish growth after- so maybe between 15-20% national cost to pay for Brexit.
And by then, we may well be back in.
Simply not going to happen. I would go so far as to say your predictions are so outlandish that it looks like you are wishing harm upon the country just to fulfil your fanatical Europhile dreams.
Gove shortening again - now close again with Leadsom for 2nd favourite.
This could be very good news for May - if Gove and Leadsom are close then Crabb should be eliminated in 4th - teeing May up for a huge vote in the final round of MPs (ie with 3 candidates remaining).
This is exactly what happened with Cameron in 2005 - which then may provide unstoppable momentum with the members.
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
So a third poster has a third different interpretation of what Rajoy said.
That only emphasises my point. Nicola only needs a credible objection to claims by whatever coalition No can form. She has that, whether people like it or not. Ruth lacks any cast iron argument, the only known known is that Scotland is out the EU if it remains in the UK as things stand.
Don't get me wrong because I wish Scotland well and if I were a Scot I would be voting for independence. However, some of the issues raised in 2014 would still seem to be there, currency, oil price etc.. Economics may not for everyone be a reason to vote in a particular way, but I should have thought some answers would need to be provided to those issues which caused people to vote "No" last time.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
Maybe but it was the electorate voted for and if we get the single market and free movement Farage will cry 'betrayal' as having won EU exit he will now have another bandwagon to jump on, just this time a purely anti immigration one.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
What would it take for the Brexiteers to throw in their cards? How much economic turbulence, unemployment, market chaos and currency depression would it take before they thought, 'you know what, it just ain't worth it'. What's the threshold? If so, what is it?
For me nothing that is at all likely to happen.
Nor me, actually Richard. I am not predicting that. However, I am talking hypothetically, wondering where the threshold is...
Well Carney talking of interest rates cuts is really quite frightening.
Richard- how much of our economic prosperity is acceptable to pay for Brexit. I reckon after modest growth this quarter we'll have maybe 3 or 4 quarters of negative growth, reducing our GDP by about 6% from now, and about 10-12% where it should have been without this self inflicted injury. And then a couple of years of sluggish growth after- so maybe between 15-20% national cost to pay for Brexit.
And by then, we may well be back in.
I find it - odd - that very many peoples have been willing to lay down their lives for democracy, and yet we are so used to being comfortable that it's now by far the top priority for so many of us.
But others can address the points so much better than I can, and it's time I was in bed.
HuffPost has been told by one senior party source that a majority of the new members are backing Corbyn ‘but only by the tiniest of margins’
How would anyone know one way or the other? It's a very long time sine I joined, but I don't think the online form says "How come you want to join, mate?"
Anecdotally, I know 3 who've joined recently to support Corbyn and one who's joined to oppose him, plus 3 who've simply joined without expressing a view on Corbyn (all of them anti-Brexit). But I've no idea if that's typical.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
Spain will not agree to Scotland being treated by the EU any differently from the UK - either leaving or joining.
This is because Spain does not want to do anything to encourage Catalonia (Barcelona) to obtain independence from Spain.
I am aware of that, I was simply making the point that he hadn't raised the prospect of vetoing an independent Scotland's entry.
Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels, a former senior adviser to the European Commission (EC) has disclosed.
As the Press Association reports, Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.
She urged MSPs to hold a second independence referendum by summer 2017 at the latest, if it is judged to be in the best interests of Scotland, to allow the EU to start work on these transitional arrangements.
However, she warned the EU “does not want a mini-UK” and said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.
That would mean there will be a referendum vote in Scotland on joining the EU after Independence is achieved. It therefore opens the opportunity for those in an Independent Scotland (like myself) to vote No to EU membership and back EFTA membership to the EEA.
There is a good argument that it is very much in the EU's interests to fudge it and transfer UK membership to Scotland so there is no need for a Yes/No referendum on the EU in Scotland.
So according to The Times, last Friday Boris was offering to pull out of the Tory race and back Theresa May if she agreed to stand down before the 2020 general election.
Well, Boris has kept his side of the bargain – will Theresa May?
Many twists and turns left in this yet. I always said Johnson wouldn't get to the final.
Will the Tories permit an all-female final? I doubt it, especially if the next Labour leader (whenever) might also be a woman...
There is no reason for the best deal to be off the table except it was rejected in a ballot.
I'm sure you didn't mean it quite that way, but that sounds almost like a doctor saying, 'this young man is in perfect health apart from the broken neck that killed him.'
(I am not comparing Brexit to a broken neck, btw!)
The point is the referendum wasn't a choice between viable options. It was a decision to remove one of the options (incidentally the best one in terms of the deal) and then decide what you want to do.
Ruth just improved her party's fortunes for the first time in 30 years on the back of a single platform - stand up for the Union. It has been totally undermined and her position is holed below the waterline.
If the EU tells Scotland it needs to be Independent to negotiate, then that is only good for Nicola. It means Independence is no longer a choice but a requirement. A requirement. It is also one likely to be supported with a heavy Yes vote.
There is no scenario where Brexit is good for Ruth. And in all scenarios Brexit is good for Nicola.
What's your view as to the SNP position on something like EFTA/EEA with FOMTW (Freedom of movement to work)? Good enough? Or not good enough?
I should add that I fully support the idea of an independent Scotland, so this isn't some kind of Internet Point scoring exercise. We don't have much Scottish representation on here these days.
After Independence is achieved I would vote no to EU membership (if it is not already in place) and yes to a full Norwegian/Icelandic EEA deal. I don't agree with the SNP but Independence is more important than the actual choice between EEA and full EU membership.
The most important thing is to curtail the drain on Scotland's wealth and people which can only be achieved by Independence.
If May gets an EFTA deal it is not impossible Scotland could very narrowly vote to stay in the UK rather than vote for independence just to join the EU. If there is no UK EFTA deal then I think an independence vote is inevitable
I think it was more that Scotland couldn't automatically inherit the UK's membership rather than he would veto the membership of an independent Scotland. That was how I read it anyway.
So a third poster has a third different interpretation of what Rajoy said.
That only emphasises my point. Nicola only needs a credible objection to claims by whatever coalition No can form. She has that, whether people like it or not. Ruth lacks any cast iron argument, the only known known is that Scotland is out the EU if it remains in the UK as things stand.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
No it really hasn't. You really are far too fixated on one backward outdated means of improving the world. It was always bound to failure as it was based primarily on protectionism and fear of the rest of the world. It really is sad you can't see that.
I told one of my Corbynite friends today...when he looks at Corbyn, he must wear some kind of illusory glasses that turns Corbyn into JFK, such is his distortion from reality and logic.
I suspect you Brexiters have similar, illusory glasses that makes you see England as this wonderful prosperous country outside the UK.
You Brexiters and Corbynites....ideologues, the pair of you. You deserve each other.
You really should concentrate on your adopted country. Italy is a poster child for everything that is wrong with the EZ. The Italian economy is roughly the same size it was in 2000.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
There is nothing beautiful about collectivism. There is something beautiful about taking responsibility for yourselves.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
What would it take for the Brexiteers to throw in their cards? How much economic turbulence, unemployment, market chaos and currency depression would it take before they thought, 'you know what, it just ain't worth it'. What's the threshold? If so, what is it?
For me nothing that is at all likely to happen.
Nor me, actually Richard. I am not predicting that. However, I am talking hypothetically, wondering where the threshold is...
Well Carney talking of interest rates cuts is really quite frightening.
Richard- how much of our economic prosperity is acceptable to pay for Brexit. I reckon after modest growth this quarter we'll have maybe 3 or 4 quarters of negative growth, reducing our GDP by about 6% from now, and about 10-12% where it should have been without this self inflicted injury. And then a couple of years of sluggish growth after- so maybe between 15-20% national cost to pay for Brexit.
And by then, we may well be back in.
Er, or you could actually look at the forecasts which were made before the referendum. 15-20%? Delusional
Leadsom now 4/1 to be next PM with Betfair Exchange.
Far-sighted men of vision, like myself, bet on her @16/1.
Some PBers are on her at 90/1.
Election of Leadsom likely to turn quite a few C2DE Leave voters off Brexit. While the establishment (i.e. Cameron) was for Remain, they had an extra reason to vote Leave. That reason will have gone.
Ruth just improved her party's fortunes for the first time in 30 years on the back of a single platform - stand up for the Union. It has been totally undermined and her position is holed below the waterline.
If the EU tells Scotland it needs to be Independent to negotiate, then that is only good for Nicola. It means Independence is no longer a choice but a requirement. A requirement. It is also one likely to be supported with a heavy Yes vote.
There is no scenario where Brexit is good for Ruth. And in all scenarios Brexit is good for Nicola.
What's your view as to the SNP position on something like EFTA/EEA with FOMTW (Freedom of movement to work)? Good enough? Or not good enough?
I should add that I fully support the idea of an independent Scotland, so this isn't some kind of Internet Point scoring exercise. We don't have much Scottish representation on here these days.
After Independence is achieved I would vote no to EU membership (if it is not already in place) and yes to a full Norwegian/Icelandic EEA deal. I don't agree with the SNP but Independence is more important than the actual choice between EEA and full EU membership.
The most important thing is to curtail the drain on Scotland's wealth and people which can only be achieved by Independence.
If May gets an EFTA deal it is not impossible Scotland could very narrowly vote to stay in the UK rather than vote for independence just to join the EU. If there is no UK EFTA deal then I think an independence vote is inevitable
An EFTA deal (Which means free movement) would kill the Tories and Labour with huge UKIP gains. It is very hard to see a Tory PM backing such a deal knowing what it will mean for his or her party.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
No it really hasn't. You really are far too fixated on one backward outdated means of improving the world. It was always bound to failure as it was based primarily on protectionism and fear of the rest of the world. It really is sad you can't see that.
I told one of my Corbynite friends today...when he looks at Corbyn, he must wear some kind of illusory glasses that turns Corbyn into JFK, such is his distortion from reality and logic.
I suspect you Brexiters have similar, illusory glasses that makes you see England as this wonderful prosperous country outside the UK.
You Brexiters and Corbynites....ideologues, the pair of you. You deserve each other.
Nope you are the ideologue. Tied to the myth of a successful EU in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Thankfully your dream is dead. We are leaving and there is nothing you can do about it.
Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels, a former senior adviser to the European Commission (EC) has disclosed.
As the Press Association reports, Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.
She urged MSPs to hold a second independence referendum by summer 2017 at the latest, if it is judged to be in the best interests of Scotland, to allow the EU to start work on these transitional arrangements.
However, she warned the EU “does not want a mini-UK” and said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.
That would mean there will be a referendum vote in Scotland on joining the EU after Independence is achieved. It therefore opens the opportunity for those in an Independent Scotland (like myself) to vote No to EU membership and back EFTA membership to the EEA.
There is a good argument that it is very much in the EU's interests to fudge it and transfer UK membership to Scotland so there is no need for a Yes/No referendum on the EU in Scotland.
The decision in principle to leave the UK and join/remain in the EU would have to be taken before the UK leaves the EU. Both points could be covered in one referendum and possibly one question to avoid an impractical outcome.
I have a bad feeling that we will see a betrayal on brexit.
Alastair campbell was on cnn earlier and he thinks we haven't seen nothing yet on the economy and Parliament will vote for another referendum
So what happens if Brexit marches into the depths of nihilism and poverty. When would you stop and say we need to back track, or would you just go on and on and on.
I tell you Brexit is as nihilistic and crazy as the Corbynistas who want to bring in Venezuela governance. You are welcome to each other.
May will probably be PM, there will be BREXIT but an EEA/EFTA deal with the single market and free movement of some form
I am so sorry we are moving to Brexit, no matter how much we back track. There was something quite wonderful about the European dream of integration, collectivism and cooperation. Instead we have the demagogy of Farage and Gove. Britain has lost a large slice of it's heart.
No it really hasn't. You really are far too fixated on one backward outdated means of improving the world. It was always bound to failure as it was based primarily on protectionism and fear of the rest of the world. It really is sad you can't see that.
I told one of my Corbynite friends today...when he looks at Corbyn, he must wear some kind of illusory glasses that turns Corbyn into JFK, such is his distortion from reality and logic.
I suspect you Brexiters have similar, illusory glasses that makes you see England as this wonderful prosperous country outside the UK.
You Brexiters and Corbynites....ideologues, the pair of you. You deserve each other.
You really should concentrate on your adopted country. Italy is a poster child for everything that is wrong with the EZ. The Italian economy is roughly the same size it was in 2000.
Jeremy Corbyn is not England, unless he's a thousand year old country who brought Magna Carta, parliamentary democracy and cricket into the world.
Comments
Assuming I'll wake up tomorrow and discover someone spiked my Bourbon with a thimble full of LSD last Thursday evening.
I should add that I fully support the idea of an independent Scotland, so this isn't some kind of Internet Point scoring exercise. We don't have much Scottish representation on here these days.
The best realistic deal, by some distance, and leaving aside discussions of democracy and sovereignty , is the only one that is off the table: full membership of the EU. There is no reason for the best deal to be off the table except it was rejected in a ballot. It is difficult for Remainers to be involved in planning the future because they can only propose solutions that they know to be inferior.
It's not necessarily a case of being bitter and not accepting they lost.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/tony-blair-hints-at-role-as-brexit-negotiator-in-eu-talks-that-w/
Whether you believe that to be true or not is largely irrelevant. It is credible which is all it appears to need to be to get the necessary numbers to back Yes. As the EU are refusing to pre-negociate, that actually makes it easier for Nicola.
FYI, the border arguement was always one of the most fatuous and laughable because the example of Ireland already existed. Even No votes never believed it.
"Independence is a requirement"
Which part of that is confusing you?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222
The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left. "First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.
After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete.
A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate. The Canadian agreement will also require ratification by all EU countries, adding another one to two years before it takes effect. ...
Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU. Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years - a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit. ... [E]ven a Norway-style single market access deal, they caution, could take years to negotiate, leaving the UK trading on WTO terms in the meantime.
What's the political upshot here? I'd be astonished if Germany, in particular, was looking forward to the idea of Britain sitting there on WTO terms for years, and if the new government wants to take the EEA route would rather maintain seamless continuity of Britain's membership of the single market rather than kick us out it via our EU exit then take us back into the EEA years later.
Does this all have any implications for the argument over a Swiss/ Norwegian / Canadian style deal?
The most important thing is to curtail the drain on Scotland's wealth and people which can only be achieved by Independence.
"Tony Blair hints at role as Brexit negotiator in EU talks that will require 'serious statesmanship'"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/tony-blair-hints-at-role-as-brexit-negotiator-in-eu-talks-that-w/
They have thrown all they have at Corbyn but he remains.
The rebels dare not make a democratic challenge because they know they will lose the vote of members.
(I am not comparing Brexit to a broken neck, btw!)
Crucially, any lingering unionist sentiment can be countered by saying "the english knew full well the risks to the union that arose from a leave vote and went ahead and voted anyway, they don't really care about Scotland".
Economics alone clearly can't win referendums, so while there are still hurdles over currency etc, this is definitely Nicola's moment, the stars won't align any better for her.
Pu-lease
Rather than Po-lease or Pol-is
?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/748528593634992128
I suspect when calm waters eventually return we'll wonder why we bothered.
'At this stage that is completely unknown and it is a perfectly credible argument that Scotland can transition to EU membership by inheriting the UK membership, so no Shengen, no Euro, etc.'
Did you miss yesterday when the EU said no to part of the UK joining the EU or the Spanish Prime Minister saying that he would veto an independent Scotland's membership application ?
Spain and France said that Scotland is not competent to discuss any deals with the EU before it is Independent. The very fact Rajoy did NOT mention vetoing an application by an Independent Scotland was a HUGE advance over previous statements.
That's the point. Again, like everything else, it merely makes Independence inevitable.
He has her on 69 but Con Home says 76 - and they don't have the above two.
So she appears to be at or very close to 80.
Sounds pretty unequivocal.
Richard- how much of our economic prosperity is acceptable to pay for Brexit. I reckon after modest growth this quarter we'll have maybe 3 or 4 quarters of negative growth, reducing our GDP by about 6% from now, and about 10-12% where it should have been without this self inflicted injury. And then a couple of years of sluggish growth after- so maybe between 15-20% national cost to pay for Brexit.
And by then, we may well be back in.
That only emphasises my point. Nicola only needs a credible objection to claims by whatever coalition No can form. She has that, whether people like it or not. Ruth lacks any cast iron argument, the only known known is that Scotland is out the EU if it remains in the UK as things stand.
#Brexcommunicated
None on list calling for him to go.
Could be an interesting meeting next week for our MP
As the Press Association reports, Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions are taking place about putting Scotland in a “transitional holding pen” after Brexit to avoid “an absurd out and then in process”.
She urged MSPs to hold a second independence referendum by summer 2017 at the latest, if it is judged to be in the best interests of Scotland, to allow the EU to start work on these transitional arrangements.
However, she warned the EU “does not want a mini-UK” and said Scotland is unlikely to keep the UK’s “awkward squad” opt-outs of the euro, justice and home affairs and the UK budget rebate.
From The Guardian
As we run a hefty trade deficit with the EU (though a modest services surplus), this would put a definite crimp into those main partners. We're Germany's #3 export market, for example.
Poland did some good ones last time...
This is because Spain does not want to do anything to encourage Catalonia (Barcelona) to obtain independence from Spain.
The two sides will talk and agree something that is to their mutual advantage.
I suspect you Brexiters have similar, illusory glasses that makes you see England as this wonderful prosperous country outside the UK.
You Brexiters and Corbynites....ideologues, the pair of you. You deserve each other.
That is probably what is behind Rajoy refusing to mention the veto yesterday. I see a clear signal there, YMMV.
Anyway, what?
This could be very good news for May - if Gove and Leadsom are close then Crabb should be eliminated in 4th - teeing May up for a huge vote in the final round of MPs (ie with 3 candidates remaining).
This is exactly what happened with Cameron in 2005 - which then may provide unstoppable momentum with the members.
But others can address the points so much better than I can, and it's time I was in bed.
Goodnight, all.
You should watch it some day, it's really very good
Anecdotally, I know 3 who've joined recently to support Corbyn and one who's joined to oppose him, plus 3 who've simply joined without expressing a view on Corbyn (all of them anti-Brexit). But I've no idea if that's typical.
That would mean there will be a referendum vote in Scotland on joining the EU after Independence is achieved. It therefore opens the opportunity for those in an Independent Scotland (like myself) to vote No to EU membership and back EFTA membership to the EEA.
There is a good argument that it is very much in the EU's interests to fudge it and transfer UK membership to Scotland so there is no need for a Yes/No referendum on the EU in Scotland.
Will the Tories permit an all-female final? I doubt it, especially if the next Labour leader (whenever) might also be a woman...
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/748628773168357377
Why Lancaster ?