Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway.
I think it's going to be a test of the EU. If they can't manage a custom deal for the UK, they're doomed (note for pedants: we might be doomed too of course).
Quite. I find the notion that the UK needs to copy exactly what Norway does frankly bizarre.
We're the 5th largest economy on the planet. Norway is 16th.
After the events of the past few days that first figure really no longer applies.
The other advantage of the EEA is that we can sign free trade agreements with everyone under the Sun, making us less dependent on the EU as they shrink to 5% of the world economy. We can then negotiate an exit of the EEA, if we want, without any two year ejector seat.
Plus we have safeguard measures limiting migration.
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
What?
Stay in the EU (with a few restrictions on freedom of movement)?
If Yvette is interested, I'll back her (again). Last time, I put her #1, unenthusiastically. Because both she and Burnham were being so careful as to what to say that they were coming up with "if on the one hand, ......."
I think she will have learnt from that. Plus Brexit has already happened. Representing a Yorkshire seat, she will have far more understanding of the Labour WWC proble.
She is definitely a ready-made package. But she won't get it.
Am I the only one who thinks Yvette is quite... errrr... cute?
You do realise that you are aligning yourself with Ed Balls with those comments...
If Corbyn loses and Eagle (for example) gets made leader of the PLP effectively [I did suggest this months ago, incidentally], could Corbyn use the apparatus of the wider Labour Party to deselect/Stalinist purge his opponents in the PLP?
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway, though hardly perfect.
The contribution would be far smaller than we pay now - both Robert Smithson and I using EFTA's own calculations came up with a total UK contribution of around £2 billion gross compared to £15 billion gross at the moment.
The amount of EU legislation that applies to the single market is less than 10% of what we are subjected to now.
The danger is that wider legislation gets labelled single market.
I think that's how the EU got round our social policy opt out.
Not possible as the EFTA countries have a veto on that. Nothing can be added to the EEA agreement without explicit agreement from the EFTA countries. This is not a case of an internal body reinterpreting rules but of an external treaty that has to be agreed by both sides.
I refer honourable PBers to my previous post. Not because it was any good, but because the link is important
Wolfgang Munchau (very astute on EU matters, and fairly EU-agnostic, by FT standards) nails the future. It will be Norway, and he explains why. I relink, here
That's very much a City view, though. When he says "A time-limited but speedily agreed Norway option would respect the will of the voters, the political reality in the UK and in the EU, prove economically least costly and it is flexible", he's right on the last two points, arguably right on the second, but completely wrong on the first.
Will it end up with anti-free-movement Leave voters being betrayed? Given the speed of buyers' remorse, which has frankly caught me by surprise, it's not unimaginable, as I thought it would be before the referendum. But there would certainly be one hell of a political cost to it.
Also, I don't think you are right that most Tory Leavers are Hannan-style libertarians. In my experience migration is one their strongest reasons for wanting to leave the EU, essentially because they think the population increase which they attribute to EU membership is unsustainable.
Boris is pro-migration so is Hannan, I don't think Cash especially cares. Etc. For them it's all about sovereignty.
Besides the point is they will HAVE to do this, or face economic meltdown, the destruction of the City, desertion of party donors. Choices are narrowing, by the day.
This is just about the only solution which looks remotely democratic (i.e. we really are LEAVING) while saving the economy
For the people who just voted leave, the primary expression of lack of sovereignty is immigration. They are seriously playing with fire if this is on the table.
We're already playing with fire. The economy might burn down. Our choices are dwindling, as I say
Oh FFS. Are you like this at home too? Let's have Chinese. I've ordered it. Oh, I think Indian would be nicer. But I've ordered Chinese. Actually, I fancy a pizza. But the delivery guy will be here in 10 mins. Should I call to cancel my order? Will they hate me now? Now ordered Indian. But what if the delivery guy didn't get the cancellation? How can I not tip him? That pizza did sound tasty...
If Yvette is interested, I'll back her (again). Last time, I put her #1, unenthusiastically. Because both she and Burnham were being so careful as to what to say that they were coming up with "if on the one hand, ......."
I think she will have learnt from that. Plus Brexit has already happened. Representing a Yorkshire seat, she will have far more understanding of the Labour WWC proble.
She is definitely a ready-made package. But she won't get it.
Am I the only one who thinks Yvette is quite... errrr... cute?
You do realise that you are aligning yourself with Ed Balls with those comments...
EEEuuuWWW - threesomes on PB - No Just no!
stop right there otherwise you'll summon TSE with his usual colourful comment on this matter...
If we stay in the EEA we can limit migration via safeguard measures under Article 112. This can be done for years.
No we can't.
We could do it unilaterally on a temporary basis, to make that permanent we'd need agreement from the EU and other EEA nations. Switzerland are probably going to get something similar in a few months time.
Switzerland are having all their cooperative programs with the EU cut in the next couple of months. I was at a meeting last week where the Swiss representative was saying how difficult Swiss - EU joint research already is. I don't think Switzerland is an example we want to go anywhere near.
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
I believe the CAP is where the bulk of the cash goes, so farming economies.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
The Spanish are the biggest CFP beneficiaries in the EU. And their fishing industry is particularly large in areas where Madrid needs to be seen to be beneficial (Galicia, Euskadi).
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
This Scottish Parliamentary debate is fantastic. Ruth is getting utterly eviscerated from all sides. The Tories seem cowed, they're unable to raise even a weak murmur of protest every time a new speaker rips into their leader and their party.
Hmmm - that is the sound of the MPs - SLab included opting for independence. I'm not sure that is wise, but it could actually be good news for the SCons.
Labour MPs seem to forget that in a lot of their strongholds outside London (and even a couple within London, like Barking), people voted in droves to LEAVE, and so were more in tune with LABOUR LEAVE than LABOUR REMAIN.
F*cking immigrants - that's what it was all about - scary times ahead.
LABOUR REMAIN believes in 300,000+ immigrants every year for ever.
It is doomed.
Gosh! Almost as many people as the entire population of Iceland!
We are almost certainly going to accept a deal that leaves immigration pretty much where it is now. Anyone now wanting to actually put into effect what many leavers believed they voted for last week have been politically marginalised. Farage & UKIP will resume howling in the wilderness with justified cries of betrayal.
What Labour Remain believe is irrelevant it will be Tory Leavers having to explain to the electorate in a couple of years time why immigration is still running at 300,000+ a year.
Ironically the most realistic hope of immigration really declining is if the economy tanks.
This Scottish Parliamentary debate is fantastic. Ruth is getting utterly eviscerated from all sides. The Tories seem cowed, they're unable to raise even a weak murmur of protest every time a new speaker rips into their leader and their party.
Wait wasn't she the PM in waiting ?
Ruth's in an utterly impossible situation and I don't think she even has the full backing of her party.
Willie Rennie just got up to speak. If he manages to score against her, then her future is looking quite bleak and the idea of the Tories as a "strong opposition" is holed below the water line.
Won't the Scottish Tories have a lot of overlap with the 55% and the 38% in Scotland. Those two groups must have a well aligned Venn diagram. I don't think it is terminal, you can't have a country where 38% of people have no representation.
The rural Leave may well help the Tories but the urban, WWC Leave will never help them. Ruth was a punching bag in Holyrood today, she's just there to take shots from everyone else and isn't coming out of it looking very good at all.
It could just be political rope-a-dope. If we are heading for the EEA, then she may be in a position of strength to argue for the Union as it keeps Scotland in the EEA and single market and they get much more influence over UK trade policy than they would in the EU as an independent nation. I think if we left entirely the union may be done for, not 100%, but given the economic shock we'd face for 3-7 years while we did the hard labour of fixing the economy, it may make sense for Scotland to do its own 3-7 years of hard labour and seek EU membership, even if it means having the Euro.
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
It's a question of timing and who blinks first.
A50, strop, WTO is closest to the expressed wishes of the public today.
MPs are suggesting Angela Eagle is piling up nominations for the Labour leadership contest we’re expecting. Sources also say that there has been a high turnout for the no confidence ballot and that they expect an overwhelming result.
Is she going to be like Merkel ? Admittedly, I have not paid much attention to her.
Wow Kezia Dugdale actually giving a decent speach, feels raw, real and utterly heartfelt. Of course its cos she's attacking the Tories. Maybe she will learn.
"She said, only the Tories can be trusted to protect Britain. Well, Ruth, how's that going now?"
Brutal.
That was superb. The whole speech was good - Scottish Labour have an actual identifiable position - support for Sturgeon was intelligently and coherently qualified and what a finale. Practically a career ended for Ruth.
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway.
I think it's going to be a test of the EU. If they can't manage a custom deal for the UK, they're doomed (note for pedants: we might be doomed too of course).
Quite. I find the notion that the UK needs to copy exactly what Norway does frankly bizarre.
We're the 5th largest economy on the planet. Norway is 16th.
After the events of the past few days that first figure really no longer applies.
I think we are back in 5th because EUR got weaker. It's a statistical tie really.
Public grandstanding like Watson pretending to be party leader at PMQs is another matter and would IMO be seen as the plotters trying to preempt the members' decision.
It's very rich to talk about grandstanding Nick when Corbyn is trying to hold on despite losing a NCV by a landslide.
If that isn't grandstanding, I don't know what is.
Indeed. He may have been voted for by the members, but he is still leader of the opposition and leader of the PLP. If he can't actually do that job (and I genuinely can't see how anyone can claim that he can) then he has to go.
It's pride, it's delusional, and it's all down to what his inner circle (aka the only people he talks to) whisper in his ear.
Watson is not going to emerge well from this - he knows the damage that is happening, and he's pretending to remain loyal purely to further his own ambitions.
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway.
I think it's going to be a test of the EU. If they can't manage a custom deal for the UK, they're doomed (note for pedants: we might be doomed too of course).
The problem, as SeanT has pointed out, is that a custom deal takes years, during which there will be enormous uncertainty. As the two year mark ticks closer, those firms - particularly in financial services - who depend on Financial Passporting will have to move operations abroad "just in case".
Which is why I'm spending most of the summer in Paris thanks to you Brexiteers
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
What?
Sack off the whole thing and just stay in the EU?
And be at the whim of political integration and the ECJ. No thanks. I'll take EEA membership and see what happens after that.
MPs are suggesting Angela Eagle is piling up nominations for the Labour leadership contest we’re expecting. Sources also say that there has been a high turnout for the no confidence ballot and that they expect an overwhelming result.
I do hope so. My betting slips and genuine concern for Labour's future depend on it.
MPs are suggesting Angela Eagle is piling up nominations for the Labour leadership contest we’re expecting. Sources also say that there has been a high turnout for the no confidence ballot and that they expect an overwhelming result.
Is she going to be like Merkel ? Admittedly, I have not paid much attention to her.
Put on 100lb and adopt a German accent? – Don’t think so…!
Wow Kezia Dugdale actually giving a decent speach, feels raw, real and utterly heartfelt. Of course its cos she's attacking the Tories. Maybe she will learn.
"She said, only the Tories can be trusted to protect Britain. Well, Ruth, how's that going now?"
Brutal.
That was superb. The whole speech was good - Scottish Labour have an actual identifiable position - support for Sturgeon was intelligently and coherently qualified and what a finale. Practically a career ended for Ruth.
The shocked ooh around the chamber was priceless.
I'm still kind of shocked.
Never in my life did I expect someone of Kezia's caliber could give a genuinely rousing, effective and meaningful speech.
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway.
I think it's going to be a test of the EU. If they can't manage a custom deal for the UK, they're doomed (note for pedants: we might be doomed too of course).
The problem, as SeanT has pointed out, is that a custom deal takes years, during which there will be enormous uncertainty. As the two year mark ticks closer, those firms - particularly in financial services - who depend on Financial Passporting will have to move operations abroad "just in case".
Which is why I'm spending most of the summer in Paris thanks to you Brexiteers
Given the time it takes to relocate, you're not the only one doing this. I know others. The main point being that in the case of the ones that I'm aware of, they're likely to go anyway even if a deal is found as trust has evaporated. Their tax revenues will follow them (and yes, they and their employees pay large amounts of tax).
Norway means Open Borders. Munchau rarely (ever?) considers/sees a problem there. Some party will have to sell it to the People at an election/ref. Good luck with that.
It also means having to obey every EU single market directive, no matter how idiotic, and having no say in how they are made, doesn't it? Also making massive annual contributions. I can't see it working in the medium term, though it would undoubtedly calm industry and finance in the short term.
I think Switzerland is better than Norway.
I think it's going to be a test of the EU. If they can't manage a custom deal for the UK, they're doomed (note for pedants: we might be doomed too of course).
The problem, as SeanT has pointed out, is that a custom deal takes years, during which there will be enormous uncertainty. As the two year mark ticks closer, those firms - particularly in financial services - who depend on Financial Passporting will have to move operations abroad "just in case".
Which is why I'm spending most of the summer in Paris thanks to you Brexiteers
Start house hunting. I doubt it will be just this summer..
Almost anyone would be better than Corbyn. But neither Watson nor Eagle impress me much. A bit dispiriting if it's not someone a bit better than them.
Cooper did well in the latter stages of the last leadership election and at least has some ministerial experience. Either Umunna or Starmer would bring a bit of star quality.
At the end of the day as long as Corbyn is ousted it's progress. But I fear he's going to hang on until he's wrenched from power.
Wow Kezia Dugdale actually giving a decent speach, feels raw, real and utterly heartfelt. Of course its cos she's attacking the Tories. Maybe she will learn.
"She said, only the Tories can be trusted to protect Britain. Well, Ruth, how's that going now?"
Brutal.
That was superb. The whole speech was good - Scottish Labour have an actual identifiable position - support for Sturgeon was intelligently and coherently qualified and what a finale. Practically a career ended for Ruth.
The shocked ooh around the chamber was priceless.
I'm still kind of shocked.
Never in my life did I expect someone of Kezia's caliber could give a genuinely rousing, effective and meaningful speech.
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
This Scottish Parliamentary debate is fantastic. Ruth is getting utterly eviscerated from all sides. The Tories seem cowed, they're unable to raise even a weak murmur of protest every time a new speaker rips into their leader and their party.
Wait wasn't she the PM in waiting ?
Ruth's in an utterly impossible situation and I don't think she even has the full backing of her party.
Willie Rennie just got up to speak. If he manages to score against her, then her future is looking quite bleak and the idea of the Tories as a "strong opposition" is holed below the water line.
Won't the Scottish Tories have a lot of overlap with the 55% and the 38% in Scotland. Those two groups must have a well aligned Venn diagram. I don't think it is terminal, you can't have a country where 38% of people have no representation.
According to the Survation Tory 2016 Voters were 29.6% Of all No voters 23.8% of all Leave Voters
Or to pivot on that data Of All Leave Voters 32.4% were 2016 Conservatives 21.7% of all No Voters
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
What?
Sack off the whole thing and just stay in the EU?
And be at the whim of political integration and the ECJ. No thanks. I'll take EEA membership and see what happens after that.
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
UKIPs Top 100 seats to target by Percentage Points behind first place consists of
40 Labour seats plus 52 Conservative seats. As a Top 50 is 22 Labour and 23 Conservative
Top 100 by absolute votes behind consists of : 42 Labour and 49 Con As a Top 50 it's 26 Labour and 17 Con
Could you narrow that down to say 10 or 15% behind first place. I suspect the list would be rather short. UKIP were second in my constituency, but they were 41% behind.
The list of seats where UKIP was 15% or less behind the winner.
Boston & Skegness and that's it.
So 100% of the seats on the list are Conservative!
List of seats where the SNP were within 15% of Labour pre-GE 2015:
Ochil & Perthshire South
I was about to do that exact comparison - I was going to check the largest lead overturned by the SNP.
I'm just going to sit tight and see what happens. Leaving the EU is far too complicated to be summarised in a pithy post on here.
It'll be Christmas before we can really form a view as to what's going on. We really need to read the smoke signals from the Germans over a reasonable period of time.
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
Unfortunately this happens every week. The Daily Mail (of all people) have at least one piece a week of somebody capturing on a mobile phone a clip of some sort of racial abuse being hurled on public transport.
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
I thought her whole performance was OTT TBH. I assume her style is the norm in Holyrood - I came away disliking her bombastic manner.
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
I believe the CAP is where the bulk of the cash goes, so farming economies.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
The Spanish are the biggest CFP beneficiaries in the EU. And their fishing industry is particularly large in areas where Madrid needs to be seen to be beneficial (Galicia, Euskadi).
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
I don't understand the scottish obsession with EU membership.
If you want to be a self-governing nation, go for it. Don't just go from being a subset of the UK to a subset of the EU.
Wow Kezia Dugdale actually giving a decent speach, feels raw, real and utterly heartfelt. Of course its cos she's attacking the Tories. Maybe she will learn.
"She said, only the Tories can be trusted to protect Britain. Well, Ruth, how's that going now?"
Brutal.
That was superb. The whole speech was good - Scottish Labour have an actual identifiable position - support for Sturgeon was intelligently and coherently qualified and what a finale. Practically a career ended for Ruth.
The shocked ooh around the chamber was priceless.
I'm still kind of shocked.
Never in my life did I expect someone of Kezia's caliber could give a genuinely rousing, effective and meaningful speech.
Anyone got a link?
Set your iplayer region to Scotland its still in the 2 hour buffer.
Or go to http://www.scottishparliament.tv/ but I don't know how long it takes for each session to go up. Edit - it has a two hour buffer too, so scroll back on the player.
One thing to remember is the reaction of other countries in the anglosphere. Australia and NZ want a trade deal now. The US too (and Canada?). The US is putting pressure on the EU not to be too tough with Britain (partly because the US is probably exasperated by EU protectionism and socialism).
If we stay in the EEA we can limit migration via safeguard measures under Article 112. This can be done for years.
There was a good article somewhere which, in short, IIRC, said that the emergency brake (is that Article 112?) is an initial three months and the EU is looking to lift it as soon as possible almost as soon as it's triggered. Also that it would be difficult, with around 40m visitors per year, to argue that the UK was undergoing social, economic, upheaval, or whatever the words were..
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
I believe the CAP is where the bulk of the cash goes, so farming economies.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
The Spanish are the biggest CFP beneficiaries in the EU. And their fishing industry is particularly large in areas where Madrid needs to be seen to be beneficial (Galicia, Euskadi).
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
I don't understand the scottish obsession with EU membership.
If you want to be a self-governing nation, go for it. Don't just go from being a subset of the UK to a subset of the EU.
Ultimately, it's up to the Scots. I don't understand it, and I worked there as late as 2012. However, if that's what the majority want, then fair enough.
This Scottish Parliamentary debate is fantastic. Ruth is getting utterly eviscerated from all sides. The Tories seem cowed, they're unable to raise even a weak murmur of protest every time a new speaker rips into their leader and their party.
Hmmm - that is the sound of the MPs - SLab included opting for independence. I'm not sure that is wise, but it could actually be good news for the SCons.
No, both the Lib Dems and Slab were very clear they were not opting for Independence. They were wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending garments at the damage the Conservatives had doen to the Union as they loved the UK so much.
SCons Unionist credentials took an absolute beating.
One thing to remember is the reaction of other countries in the anglosphere. Australia and NZ want a trade deal now. The US too (and Canada?). The US is putting pressure on the EU not to be too tough with Britain (partly because the US is probably exasperated by EU protectionism and socialism).
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
What?
Sack off the whole thing and just stay in the EU?
And be at the whim of political integration and the ECJ. No thanks. I'll take EEA membership and see what happens after that.
I really cant see much of a downside to the EEA.
The downside is that we lose our veto in accession and we lose our final voting rights. The EEA is certainly not without its challenges, but it can be made to work in our favour. It is almost purely an economic and trading partnership. It is what we want from the EU without meddlinf ECJ judges and Brussels Eurocrats.
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
They were. The only problem is, they still are.
It doesn't look that way; they are now just following party orders.
Wow Kezia Dugdale actually giving a decent speach, feels raw, real and utterly heartfelt. Of course its cos she's attacking the Tories. Maybe she will learn.
"She said, only the Tories can be trusted to protect Britain. Well, Ruth, how's that going now?"
Brutal.
That was superb. The whole speech was good - Scottish Labour have an actual identifiable position - support for Sturgeon was intelligently and coherently qualified and what a finale. Practically a career ended for Ruth.
The shocked ooh around the chamber was priceless.
I'm still kind of shocked.
Never in my life did I expect someone of Kezia's caliber could give a genuinely rousing, effective and meaningful speech.
Anyone got a link?
Set your iplayer region to Scotland its still in the 2 hour buffer.
Or go to http://www.scottishparliament.tv/ but I don't know how long it takes for each session to go up. Edit - it has a two hour buffer too, so scroll back on the player.
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
A question I would like some insight on as well. If our net contribution is EU12bn on top of that there is informed speculation that the EU have gaps in their forecast funding for 2017 etc. Therefore are we looking at a need for circa EU20bn in 2018 etc which because some committed projects extend over several years, would reduce the range of options where cuts could be made.
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
Unfortunately this happens every week. The Daily Mail (of all people) have at least one piece a week of somebody capturing on a mobile phone a clip of some sort of racial abuse being hurled on public transport.
Doesn't usually happen in Manchester city centre, which is why I work here and spend most of the week here.
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
I believe the CAP is where the bulk of the cash goes, so farming economies.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
The Spanish are the biggest CFP beneficiaries in the EU. And their fishing industry is particularly large in areas where Madrid needs to be seen to be beneficial (Galicia, Euskadi).
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
I don't understand the scottish obsession with EU membership.
If you want to be a self-governing nation, go for it. Don't just go from being a subset of the UK to a subset of the EU.
Ultimately, it's up to the Scots. I don't understand it, and I worked there as late as 2012. However, if that's what the majority want, then fair enough.
Its less an obsession for EU membership, more a disgust at the way England is dragging the rest of the UK into a recession and making us a world wide laughing stock.
"Dutch PM Rutte gives delay on Art 50 triggering, because: "England has collapsed politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically""
One thing to remember is the reaction of other countries in the anglosphere. Australia and NZ want a trade deal now. The US too (and Canada?). The US is putting pressure on the EU not to be too tough with Britain (partly because the US is probably exasperated by EU protectionism and socialism).
The UK is in a strong position.
Dream on...
India are already indicating they are keen on opening trade negotiations with us. They are very frustrated that having had to deal with the demands of 28 separate countries in their decade long trade talks with the EU they are still no nearer a deal. There is a lot of interest in a specific UK/India FTA
Nissan might see an advantage in being based here, if Volkswagen loses their market. But it all shows the weakness of not having businesses with a true stake in the country - and that is all down to governments who care about their salaries and nothing else.
This Scottish Parliamentary debate is fantastic. Ruth is getting utterly eviscerated from all sides. The Tories seem cowed, they're unable to raise even a weak murmur of protest every time a new speaker rips into their leader and their party.
Hmmm - that is the sound of the MPs - SLab included opting for independence. I'm not sure that is wise, but it could actually be good news for the SCons.
No, both the Lib Dems and Slab were very clear they were not opting for Independence. They were wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending garments at the damage the Conservatives had doen to the Union as they loved the UK so much.
SCons Unionist credentials took an absolute beating.
And even more importantly, in the election they just did "well" in, Unionism was their sole policy platform.
They have pivoted to be solely about blocking Independence, they have little policy on the economy or social services or the NHS, I can't think of a single policy of theirs that's not about the Union.
- Scottish independence gets fast tracked and becomes a full member of the EU. The UK has now ceased to exist and so has 'left the EU'. - Irish unification happens.
Second referendum in England and Wales only:
Should England and Wales remain a member of the European Union?
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
Unfortunately this happens every week. The Daily Mail (of all people) have at least one piece a week of somebody capturing on a mobile phone a clip of some sort of racial abuse being hurled on public transport.
Doesn't usually happen in Manchester city centre, which is why I work here and spend most of the week here.
I don't know why we bothered to vote Leave. If it is economically impossible to leave the EU, then we have already lost our sovereignty.
Of course it's not entirely possible to remove ourselves "economically" from the EU. It;s massive, and it's next door. It will always loom very large in our thinking. The Canadians have to accommodate the USA, and Ireland accommodates the UK, for the same reason
What we CAN do is extrricate ourselves as painlessly as possible from the EU politically, and then, over time, reorientate our trade to the wider world as much as possible, as long as the EU seems set on stagnation. So. EEA Norway option first. Wait for ten years. Then rethink.
This isn't a counsel of despair, nor of panic. It's just the best choice out of several unideal choices.
I'd be interested to know what other options LEAVERS (or indeed REMAINERS) might suggest, that simultaneously respects the vote and keeps Britain prosperous?
Trigger A50, then throw a huge strop at Europe so they refuse to budge so we revert to WTO and no single market access? That impoverishes us, for sure.
Or just do nothing, don't trigger A50, and watch foreigners edge away and investment dry up, as everyone shuns uncertainty? And - by the by - enrage voters who demanded we LEAVE, thus destroying any faith in our democracy?
What?
Stay in the EU (with a few restrictions on freedom of movement)?
Restrictions on freedom of movement are it seems non negotiable.
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
They were. The only problem is, they still are.
It doesn't look that way; they are now just following party orders.
Its a bad line for Ms Davidson though.
'Trust me, everything I said during the referendum campaign was a lie.'
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
Unfortunately this happens every week. The Daily Mail (of all people) have at least one piece a week of somebody capturing on a mobile phone a clip of some sort of racial abuse being hurled on public transport.
Saying it happens every week is not really an answer. It is clear from the police reports that these types of attacks have increased substantially since last Thursday and it really doesn't help anyone to try and deny that. Better to confront it and make sure it is both condemned and dealt with.
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson, who argued for Remain in the BBC's Big Debate at Wembley, says her side was told they were "overplaying the impact of Brexit".
They were. The only problem is, they still are.
With Osborne still in place threatening cuts and more taxes to depress the economy. Surely Boris/Theresa etc will recognise that he has to go and go quickly? Maybe Gove etc calls a cabinet meeting and demands silence on future actions, excluding nominated candidates?
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
Unfortunately this happens every week. The Daily Mail (of all people) have at least one piece a week of somebody capturing on a mobile phone a clip of some sort of racial abuse being hurled on public transport.
Doesn't usually happen in Manchester city centre, which is why I work here and spend most of the week here.
If so, what is the thinking behind two muppets being put up to challenge Jezza? Is it so one on them wins and then organises a proper leadership election?
So if the Uk is a net contributor - which countries will see their handouts cut the most- or will it be equally across the board ?
I believe the CAP is where the bulk of the cash goes, so farming economies.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
The Spanish are the biggest CFP beneficiaries in the EU. And their fishing industry is particularly large in areas where Madrid needs to be seen to be beneficial (Galicia, Euskadi).
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
I don't understand the scottish obsession with EU membership.
If you want to be a self-governing nation, go for it. Don't just go from being a subset of the UK to a subset of the EU.
Ultimately, it's up to the Scots. I don't understand it, and I worked there as late as 2012. However, if that's what the majority want, then fair enough.
Its less an obsession for EU membership, more a disgust at the way England is dragging the rest of the UK into a recession and making us a world wide laughing stock.
"Dutch PM Rutte gives delay on Art 50 triggering, because: "England has collapsed politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically""
We should really not spend so much time worrying about what tiny little countries say about us. The Netherlands has its own problems. They're also meant to be a friend, a partner and an ally.
Comments
Plus we have safeguard measures limiting migration.
We'll also be leaving CFP, so that will upset the spanish.
OMP is Polish think-tank so a v bizarre ethnic slur if one. Be like someone writing 'F**k you Policy Exchange' on a British cultural centre
@PeterfromPutney may yet be vindicated in his forecast earlier.
Yet their easiest solution is to back Scottish Independence.
And they don't have a government or the prospect of a government.
What Labour Remain believe is irrelevant it will be Tory Leavers having to explain to the electorate in a couple of years time why immigration is still running at 300,000+ a year.
Ironically the most realistic hope of immigration really declining is if the economy tanks.
A50, strop, WTO is closest to the expressed wishes of the public today.
Wait a few weeks
@D_Shariatmadari: So sad: further Siemens investment in Hull stalls with Brexit "The people of Hull voted overwhelmingly for Leave" https://t.co/kG44JASd1v
The wishes of the public will be more aligned to "fix this shit" !
The shocked ooh around the chamber was priceless.
It's pride, it's delusional, and it's all down to what his inner circle (aka the only people he talks to) whisper in his ear.
Watson is not going to emerge well from this - he knows the damage that is happening, and he's pretending to remain loyal purely to further his own ambitions.
http://newstonoone.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/2020-ukips-choices.html
My thinking has, however, moved on a bit. If I get the time, I will do a post for Mike on where I now think UKIP should focus their efforts.
Never in my life did I expect someone of Kezia's caliber could give a genuinely rousing, effective and meaningful speech.
Negatives:
1. Tinny weak voice.
2. Small even slight stature.
3. Faffs around in debate.
Positives:
1. She ain't Corbyn.
Cooper did well in the latter stages of the last leadership election and at least has some ministerial experience. Either Umunna or Starmer would bring a bit of star quality.
At the end of the day as long as Corbyn is ousted it's progress. But I fear he's going to hang on until he's wrenched from power.
A man has been the victim of a racist attack on a tram in Manchester with youth shouting ‘get back to Africa’, authorities have confirmed.
Witnesses have described the abuse as ‘horrendous’ as at least three youths are seen shouting abuse at a man in a tram in Central Manchester on Tuesday morning.
The man, who appeared to have an American accent and be of mixed race, is seen asking the teenagers to stop swearing in front of children.
But the youth shouted back: “F--- get off the tram now. Don’t chat s---t or get deported”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/28/teens-hurl-abuse-at-man-on-manchester-tram/
29.6% Of all No voters
23.8% of all Leave Voters
Or to pivot on that data
Of All Leave Voters
32.4% were 2016 Conservatives
21.7% of all No Voters
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Post-Brexit-Scottish-Attitudes-Poll.pdf
Any maybe a bit more pour encourager les autres (spelling?).
Can Eagle force a 1 horse race ?
It'll be Christmas before we can really form a view as to what's going on. We really need to read the smoke signals from the Germans over a reasonable period of time.
If you want to be a self-governing nation, go for it. Don't just go from being a subset of the UK to a subset of the EU.
Or go to http://www.scottishparliament.tv/ but I don't know how long it takes for each session to go up. Edit - it has a two hour buffer too, so scroll back on the player.
One thing to remember is the reaction of other countries in the anglosphere. Australia and NZ want a trade deal now. The US too (and Canada?). The US is putting pressure on the EU not to be too tough with Britain (partly because the US is probably exasperated by EU protectionism and socialism).
The UK is in a strong position.
SCons Unionist credentials took an absolute beating.
"Dutch PM Rutte gives delay on Art 50 triggering, because: "England has collapsed politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically""
They have pivoted to be solely about blocking Independence, they have little policy on the economy or social services or the NHS, I can't think of a single policy of theirs that's not about the Union.
- Scottish independence gets fast tracked and becomes a full member of the EU. The UK has now ceased to exist and so has 'left the EU'.
- Irish unification happens.
Second referendum in England and Wales only:
Should England and Wales remain a member of the European Union?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3480054/Moment-Manchester-tram-passengers-unite-confront-abusive-man.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3408961/I-don-t-want-teaching-kids-horrendous-moment-woman-racially-abuses-Asian-university-lecturer-friend-Manchester-tram.html
I could go on...
It was a democratic vote.
'Mr. Stjohn, I agree. Eagle is unimpressive, and Watson is slime.'
Both charisma free zones but up against Corbyn anyone would look like an improvement.
'Trust me, everything I said during the referendum campaign was a lie.'
Looks like the rule is heads I win, tails you lose.
Oh God, I've officially become a Manc
If so, what is the thinking behind two muppets being put up to challenge Jezza? Is it so one on them wins and then organises a proper leadership election?