I saw on facebook that there's a specific FB group been set up to report post Brexit race-hate crimes.
These are all to be condemned, but the level of reporting has surely increased - Remainers are looking for it at every turn.
Genuinely don't understand those who are seeking to make it worse for the UK now, taking a perverse glee in stock market or £ falls, or rushing to report unsavoury incidents. We are where we are - let's get on with it!
Microsoft has paid out $10,000 to a US customer for messing up her computer by automatically "upgrading" her operating system from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
Microsoft do make it hard to avoid this update but we have so far managed to block it.
A friend was less successful and has had no end of problems since much of his software was not compatible with Windows 10 following the upgrade.
I have had to move browser from Internet Explorer to Mozilla Firefox because Microsoft have stopped supporting my version of IE.
Microsoft doing their best to alienate their customer base.
''There seems to still be a very strange attitude amongst posters posters here, and also to an extent amongst UK politicians and commentators, that the UK can decide what our relationship with the EU is going to be.''
No illusions from me. You are entirely correct. If we ditch free movement we can kiss the single market goodbye.
Luckily, it seems countries are forming a line to clinch free trade deals with us. ANZAC, West Africa and most importantly the US.
I am sure the line will get longer.
The single market may not be desirable.
"What is the Single Market? It is not a free trade area. It was created mainly by Delors in order to spark further political integration in the EEC, as Delors said himself on many occasions. It was sold in Britain as a trade liberalising project, partly because of the cunning of Lord Cockfield and the Foreign Office in presenting it as such to Thatcher who did not listen to John Hoskyns on the subject. SM rules were created to fulfil a primarily political purpose, not an economic one.
You do not need ‘rules of a Single Market’ in order to promote trade, as all the other countries in the world know. In many fields, the regulatory harmonisation of the Single Market is far more extreme than that imposed by the federal government on US states.
A small proportion of companies would suffer problems if we were to leave the Single Market without any transitional arrangements. Others would gain."
There seems to still be a very strange attitude amongst posters here, and also to an extent amongst UK politicians and commentators, that the UK can decide what our relationship with the EU is going to be. That is extremely naive. It takes two (or in this case, 28) to tango. I doubt very much if EEA membership is even on the table as a starting point, but, even if it were, it's quite certain that there's no 'only the nice bits of the EEA' option.
Well having reciprocal welfare restrictions hurts UK citizens in the EU as well so its not like there wouldn't be any downsides for us. All those oldies would have to start paying up for their "emergency" healthcare in Spain for example. I agree, people want a pro cake and pro eating cake solution. It doesn't exist. I think the EEA is the best compromise, we still have some say in forming legislation (upside) though no voting rights (a downside), we would be out of the CAP and CFP (upside) but have to pay contributions (downside).
The two biggest wins, and I know you don't agree with this, are getting out of the political union and removing ourselves from ECJ jurisdiction. Once we leave the Supreme Court will be the highest arbiter in the land. As someone who believes in rule of law, I'll be glad to see the back of the charter of fundamental rights and ever closer union being used by the ECJ to push through unpopular rulings against member states.
For six years, May has been in charge of immigration.
May "campaigns" (i.e. lets it be known she is in the same column) with Remain. Makes no show for Remain in the campaign though.
The voters, deeply unhappy with immigration, vote to remedy this by voting Leave to eject us from the EU.
The Prime Minister resigns - and May is rewarded by getting the top job herself.
Anybody else think these is something not quite right about this?
It does seem a bit odd in a way, but there again so is the idea of a pro-immigration politician with Turkish blood winning a divisive referendum by ludicrous scaremongering over millions of Turkish immigrants.
I saw on facebook that there's a specific FB group been set up to report post Brexit race-hate crimes.
These are all to be condemned, but the level of reporting has surely increased - Remainers are looking for it at every turn.
Genuinely don't understand those who are seeking to make it worse for the UK now, taking a perverse glee in stock market or £ falls, or rushing to report unsavoury incidents. We are where we are - let's get on with it!
We can now take glee in the rise in the stockmarket and sterling.
For six years, May has been in charge of immigration.
May "campaigns" (i.e. lets it be known she is in the same column) with Remain. Makes no show for Remain in the campaign though.
The voters, deeply unhappy with immigration, vote to remedy this by voting Leave to eject us from the EU.
The Prime Minister resigns - and May is rewarded by getting the top job herself.
Anybody else think these is something not quite right about this?
It does seem a bit odd in a way, but there again so is the idea of a pro-immigration politician with Turkish blood winning a divisive referendum by ludicrous scaremongering over millions of Turkish immigrants.
Turned off automatic updates. Two 'recommended' ones appear to install Windows 10 nagware.
Like you, I'm getting hacked off. When I need to change my computer, I might just buy something else which won't bloody pester me all the time. I just want to browse the internet and use a word processor, without having an OS knocking on my computer asking to be let in.
I think that EEA countries can withdrawal ALL benefits from EU citizens.
Yup, this is the obvious way to square the circle with Leave's immigration promises. In reality it wouldn't make a lot of difference, but immigration (especially net immigration) will most likely be falling anyhow as Britain becomes poorer and more racist.
Indeed - most immigrants come here looking for a job and will worry about health care etc when they have to. But as we become a less attractive country to live in - economically and socially - less will come.
Right, so if you're running for Tory leader you promise continued market access and unspecified action on immigration. Then you join the EEA and accept free movement but stage and "win" a fight over benefits or something other immigration-related side issue. The economy improves from worse to bad, immigration is still low, job done.
And what will the point of the pain of Brexit have been exactly? I don't know who passed on this titbit on this forum the other day: https://twitter.com/dadge/status/747185941886926848 but DC and co have a lot to answer for.
The two biggest wins, and I know you don't agree with this, are getting out of the political union and removing ourselves from ECJ jurisdiction. Once we leave the Supreme Court will be the highest arbiter in the land. As someone who believes in rule of law, I'll be glad to see the back of the charter of fundamental rights and ever closer union being used by the ECJ to push through unpopular rulings against member states.
No, you misunderstand my position. I do agree those are wins. I just don't like the cost.
Well having reciprocal welfare restrictions hurts UK citizens in the EU as well so its not like there wouldn't be any downsides for us. All those oldies would have to start paying up for their "emergency" healthcare in Spain for example.
Overseas residents aren't great at voting, and even the ones who are lose the right to do it after 15 years. The government is supposed to be extending that, but since they're going to shaft these people they may well turn out to be too busy...
If you want a simple example that perfectly encapsulates the reason for Brexit take a look in any town in country and you will see it - The Hand Car Wash. Half a dozen overseas workers earning a pittance, probably on a zero hours contract, working long hours with their in income being topped up with tax credits.
Immigration, zero hours contracts, rising welfare budgets - all in a mop and a bucket.
I don't remember such carwashes operating before the eastern Europeans came along. Or are you worried they will put Option 4 "Superwash" at Shell out of business?
Most petrol stations are run as franchises rather than being owned by the oil companies. Some poor bugger's laid out six figures for a mechanical car wash no-one is using any more.
Yes, the market can be unpredictable at times. What about those rose-sellers on the central reservation of dual carriageways...
I always thought that Tories favoured consumer interests over those of producers.
At risk of trampling on your joke, that was New Labour. Conservatives and Old Labour represented different sides of production: bosses and workers.
Conservatives will want a leader who is in favour of LEAVE to ensure we have a determined LEAVE negotiator.
We know May isn't in favour of LEAVE but is Boris actually in favour of LEAVE?
Which potential Conservative leader has been consistently in favour of LEAVE - Liam Fox?
Ugh.
BTW, the Totnes constituency membership lady told me this morning that there has been quite an uptick in membership in recent days. But at £25 a go, probably less of the politically malicious than Labour at £3.
I saw on facebook that there's a specific FB group been set up to report post Brexit race-hate crimes.
These are all to be condemned, but the level of reporting has surely increased - Remainers are looking for it at every turn.
Genuinely don't understand those who are seeking to make it worse for the UK now, taking a perverse glee in stock market or £ falls, or rushing to report unsavoury incidents. We are where we are - let's get on with it!
One MP yesterday actually made point about one single twitter comment. Its absurd. In a country of 60 million people, some of them are going to be rude to others.
Can all the Conservative members here please try their best to stay objective when it comes to betting related posts on the Tory leadership battle, and avoid just ramping their preferred candidate
Thanks !
My thread headers on the subject will be impeccably neutral.
Cameron announced the referendum, went to negotiate a deal, and got one (a good one). Perhaps the EU is unreformable but his deal cemented our special status within, or perhaps call it alongside it. Even if you think the deal is useless, do I think that Dave should have done anything differently? Not really. Why should he have played the cute games that the EU might have been playing? He went to negotiate a deal, negotiated a deal and we voted on it. If people say "well you should have played hardball, delayed, threatened, etc" well that is no way to conduct diplomacy. As we now see, compared with what we are about to get, it was not only good, it was great.
If Cameron`s deal was as good as you claim, Mr Topping, why didn`t Cameron and Osborne campaign positively on his supposed triumph?
Could it have been that even they did not thnk it was a world-beater?
Probably because whatever deal they had struck on immigration would have been unsatisfactory to many Leave voters who won't be happy with any migrants coming here. They'd have been fools to campaign on it.
And what will the point of the pain of Brexit have been exactly? I don't know who passed on this titbit on this forum the other day: https://twitter.com/dadge/status/747185941886926848 but DC and co have a lot to answer for.
I did say at the time that the renegotiations seemed to be very rushed !
Hmm. Does Leanne Wood realise that most of Wales voted for independence?
Sturgeon's posturing for advantage, but at least Scotland did actually vote to Remain. Wood's argument appears to be, er, not necessarily in keeping with the laws of reason.
"We voted for something, and we got it. Therefore, we must get our independence because... um...."
Edited extra bit: ha, meant 'to leave the EU', rather than 'independence', but you knew that.
I'm getting the distinct impression that Ms Woods is just aping Sturgeon and hasn't applied a single braincell to why it doesn't make any sense.
Her pitch at the GE debates was basically 'One day, when we grow up, PC can be like the SNP'. They aren't there yet.
There are plenty of us who liked and indeed still like Blair, feel he did valuable things and made an honest mistake on Iraq
You really have to be fucking kidding?!
If he'd admit it was a political decision, I'm okay with that: all's fair in love and war etc. But saying it was a mistake or that there were WMDs or all other BS will be given the short shrift it deserves.
I think that EEA countries can withdrawal ALL benefits from EU citizens.
Yup, this is the obvious way to square the circle with Leave's immigration promises. In reality it wouldn't make a lot of difference, but immigration (especially net immigration) will most likely be falling anyhow as Britain becomes poorer and more racist.
Indeed - most immigrants come here looking for a job and will worry about health care etc when they have to. But as we become a less attractive country to live in - economically and socially - less will come.
Right, so if you're running for Tory leader you promise continued market access and unspecified action on immigration. Then you join the EEA and accept free movement but stage and "win" a fight over benefits or something other immigration-related side issue. The economy improves from worse to bad, immigration is still low, job done.
And what will the point of the pain of Brexit have been exactly? I don't know who passed on this titbit on this forum the other day: https://twitter.com/dadge/status/747185941886926848 but DC and co have a lot to answer for.
That was Charles....
I've seen something (separate and elsewhere) that confirms it and there was the separate comment from here that the Foreign Office don't have a plan because they really were not allowed to formulate one...
Mr. Observer, 'likely Autumn election' the most interesting line.
When all is done and dusted, there is surely a footnote to political history to be had in Osborne's cynical legislation: Chancellors to be forced to balance budgets (except for him) and now fixed term parliaments (except when it suits his party).
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Conservatives will want a leader who is in favour of LEAVE to ensure we have a determined LEAVE negotiator.
We know May isn't in favour of LEAVE but is Boris actually in favour of LEAVE?
Which potential Conservative leader has been consistently in favour of LEAVE - Liam Fox?
Ugh.
BTW, the Totnes constituency membership lady told me this morning that there has been quite an uptick in membership in recent days. But at £25 a go, probably less of the politically malicious than Labour at £3.
Probably rejoining because Cameron and Feldman will soon be gone?
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Can all the Conservative members here please try their best to stay objective when it comes to betting related posts on the Tory leadership battle, and avoid just ramping their preferred candidate
Thanks !
My thread headers on the subject will be impeccably neutral.
Below the line, I want Boris to win.
TSE - Are you leading the Remainers for Boris campaign?
Would Boris be the leading candiate for Remainers who accept that the new leader should be someone from the LEAVE campaign?
That's what pulling me to Team Boris - not something I expected to ever say.
If I was a tory MP that would be my price for support. What are you doing with Michael Gove? I'd like to see him as chancellor, with Leadsom first sec to treasury. Very strong team.
If Boris has sensible and stable people around him, his faults can be forgiven. And faults he certainly has.
If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up
Gove - Chancellor Leadsom - First Sec Treasury Raab - Justice Sec Villiers - FSec Priti - Home Eustice - Defra IDS - Defence Fox - Health
Olive branches to Remainers
Hunt or Hammond - beefed up DTI May - DWP Greening - DCMS AN Other - DifD
I think that EEA countries can withdrawal ALL benefits from EU citizens.
Yup, this is the obvious way to square the circle with Leave's immigration promises. In reality it wouldn't make a lot of difference, but immigration (especially net immigration) will most likely be falling anyhow as Britain becomes poorer and more racist.
Indeed - most immigrants come here looking for a job and will worry about health care etc when they have to. But as we become a less attractive country to live in - economically and socially - less will come.
Right, so if you're running for Tory leader you promise continued market access and unspecified action on immigration. Then you join the EEA and accept free movement but stage and "win" a fight over benefits or something other immigration-related side issue. The economy improves from worse to bad, immigration is still low, job done.
And what will the point of the pain of Brexit have been exactly? I don't know who passed on this titbit on this forum the other day: https://twitter.com/dadge/status/747185941886926848 but DC and co have a lot to answer for.
That was Charles....
I've seen something (separate and elsewhere) that confirms it and there was the separate comment from here that the Foreign Office don't have a plan because they really were not allowed to formulate one...
And the French are a completely disinterested observer who have no reason for wanting to make sure that no-one blames them for the UK leaving the EU, so we should believe completely and whole-heartedly what they say.
Well having reciprocal welfare restrictions hurts UK citizens in the EU as well so its not like there wouldn't be any downsides for us. All those oldies would have to start paying up for their "emergency" healthcare in Spain for example.
Overseas residents aren't great at voting, and even the ones who are lose the right to do it after 15 years. The government is supposed to be extending that, but since they're going to shaft these people they may well turn out to be too busy...
Well saying that we don't want loads of leeches of spongers from the EU taking more than they contribute from our welfare system while not saying the same about our leeches and spongers in the EU seems a bit lile having one's cake and eating it.
Mr. Observer, 'likely Autumn election' the most interesting line.
When all is done and dusted, there is surely a footnote to political history to be had in Osborne's cynical legislation: Chancellors to be forced to balance budgets (except for him) and now fixed term parliaments (except when it suits his party).
How are they going to get round the FTP ? Does it not require 55% ?
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Indeed. The Corbynites keep quoting the result from last time, as if that is certain to be the result this time.....
Turned off automatic updates. Two 'recommended' ones appear to install Windows 10 nagware.
Like you, I'm getting hacked off. When I need to change my computer, I might just buy something else which won't bloody pester me all the time. I just want to browse the internet and use a word processor, without having an OS knocking on my computer asking to be let in.
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Do you think it matters who he is up against? Perhaps the smart money would be on a candidate that he agrees to endorse having stepped down.
''Probably because whatever deal they had struck on immigration would have been unsatisfactory to many Leave voters who won't be happy with any migrants coming here. They'd have been fools to campaign on it. ''
Do you have to be against immigration if you voted LEAVE? personally, I'm in favour of it. I just want our government to control it. That way, we get a more consistent quality of immigrant. Fewer criminals and people who can;t support themselves. More people who can.
Can all the Conservative members here please try their best to stay objective when it comes to betting related posts on the Tory leadership battle, and avoid just ramping their preferred candidate
Thanks !
My thread headers on the subject will be impeccably neutral.
Below the line, I want Boris to win.
TSE - Are you leading the Remainers for Boris campaign?
Would Boris be the leading candiate for Remainers who accept that the new leader should be someone from the LEAVE campaign?
I'm sorta TM4PM, but think it would be amusing to see Boris squirm trying to implement Brexit.
On a personal note, Boris, like me, is a classicist, and I would love to see a classicist in Number 10.
PMQs would be enlivened with Boris talking about the Battle of Ipsus
That's what pulling me to Team Boris - not something I expected to ever say.
If I was a tory MP that would be my price for support. What are you doing with Michael Gove? I'd like to see him as chancellor, with Leadsom first sec to treasury. Very strong team.
If Boris has sensible and stable people around him, his faults can be forgiven. And faults he certainly has.
If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up
Gove - Chancellor Leadsom - First Sec Treasury Raab - Justice Sec Villiers - FSec Priti - Home Eustice - Defra IDS - Defence Fox - Health
Olive branches to Remainers
Hunt or Hammond - beefed up DTI May - DWP Greening - DCMS AN Other - DifD
I'd like to see Gisela and Hoey offered formal roles on the Brexit team negotiations.
I think the Foreign office will have responsibility for negotiating trade deals in the future. If so, I'd rather see Ms Leadsom there than in the treasury.
I think that EEA countries can withdrawal ALL benefits from EU citizens.
Yup, this is the obvious way to square the circle with Leave's immigration promises. In reality it wouldn't make a lot of difference, but immigration (especially net immigration) will most likely be falling anyhow as Britain becomes poorer and more racist.
Indeed - most immigrants come here looking for a job and will worry about health care etc when they have to. But as we become a less attractive country to live in - economically and socially - less will come.
Right, so if you're running for Tory leader you promise continued market access and unspecified action on immigration. Then you join the EEA and accept free movement but stage and "win" a fight over benefits or something other immigration-related side issue. The economy improves from worse to bad, immigration is still low, job done.
And what will the point of the pain of Brexit have been exactly? I don't know who passed on this titbit on this forum the other day: https://twitter.com/dadge/status/747185941886926848 but DC and co have a lot to answer for.
I don't disagree; Worse, the EEA option is the opposite of "Take back control": It gives up control of all kinds of areas where it now has a vote or a veto while still being de-facto subject to the decisions that the EU is making.
But what this site is really good for isn't arguing the rights and wrongs, it's working out what politicians will do and what will win and lose them elections. And looking at the options politicians have for the situation they now find themselves in, I'm not seeing anything remotely as attractive as "EEA quick, grand-stand on immigration benefits". (*)
(*) This assumes public opinion doesn't move far enough that they can actually _reverse_ Brexit, but that would have to be quite a big shift, and thus far we've seen no evidence of any shift at all, beyond a bunch of anecdotes.
Mr. Song, if/when I must change, I'll certainly be looking at alternatives. As I said, my main needs are browsing the interweb and word processor (can't be a writer without that).
For six years, May has been in charge of immigration.
May "campaigns" (i.e. lets it be known she is in the same column) with Remain. Makes no show for Remain in the campaign though.
The voters, deeply unhappy with immigration, vote to remedy this by voting Leave to eject us from the EU.
The Prime Minister resigns - and May is rewarded by getting the top job herself.
Anybody else think these is something not quite right about this?
It does seem a bit odd in a way, but there again so is the idea of a pro-immigration politician with Turkish blood winning a divisive referendum by ludicrous scaremongering over millions of Turkish immigrants.
The two biggest wins, and I know you don't agree with this, are getting out of the political union and removing ourselves from ECJ jurisdiction. Once we leave the Supreme Court will be the highest arbiter in the land. As someone who believes in rule of law, I'll be glad to see the back of the charter of fundamental rights and ever closer union being used by the ECJ to push through unpopular rulings against member states.
No, you misunderstand my position. I do agree those are wins. I just don't like the cost.
I think the cost won't be as high as people currently believe, once the shock wears down and we have some kind of plan from the leadership, plus the pre-negotiated EEA membership solution ready (say what you will but the idea that the EU won't negotiate before article 50 is served is quite fanciful) I think we'll be in a strong position. If Turnbull wins in Australia I'd look for a quick trade deal with them as well which we could have ready to go as soon as we leave, something tangible to throw at the markets.
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
I concur – yesterday’s show of support in Parliament Square has shown there is still alot of support for Corbyn, but the post leadership election euphoria on social media is no longer uncritical of his performance so far.
Mr. Observer, 'likely Autumn election' the most interesting line.
When all is done and dusted, there is surely a footnote to political history to be had in Osborne's cynical legislation: Chancellors to be forced to balance budgets (except for him) and now fixed term parliaments (except when it suits his party).
How are they going to get round the FTP ? Does it not require 55% ?
Politically it would be very hard for the opposition to vote against a new election, especially when the circumstances justify it like they do here.
Cameron announced the referendum, went to negotiate a deal, and got one (a good one). Perhaps the EU is unreformable but his deal cemented our special status within, or perhaps call it alongside it. Even if you think the deal is useless, do I think that Dave should have done anything differently? Not really. Why should he have played the cute games that the EU might have been playing? He went to negotiate a deal, negotiated a deal and we voted on it. If people say "well you should have played hardball, delayed, threatened, etc" well that is no way to conduct diplomacy. As we now see, compared with what we are about to get, it was not only good, it was great.
If Cameron`s deal was as good as you claim, Mr Topping, why didn`t Cameron and Osborne campaign positively on his supposed triumph?
Could it have been that even they did not thnk it was a world-beater?
Probably because whatever deal they had struck on immigration would have been unsatisfactory to many Leave voters who won't be happy with any migrants coming here. They'd have been fools to campaign on it.
They did not have to convince all the people inclined to vote to leave, just enough of them. Campaigning with a positive message of what they had achieved might have done that.
As it was there were people like me who remembered what Cameron had said in 2013 about reforming the EU and only staying in a reformed EU. Remembered what he said about his deal at the time and wondered whether it was worth the paper it was written on. Then when he failed even to really mention it let alone campaign on it wondered why and, personally, came to the conclusion that it was therefore probably not worth the paper it was written on.
Furthermore, it made Cameron look duplicitous or, more accurately, more duplicitous. Then when he went big on all the silly scare stories from the outset, I think he ceased to be listened to let alone believed. Osborne's punishment budget threat was the final straw.
Considering the polling at the outset of the whole process the referendum was Cameron's to lose. He lost it, through I think arrogance, stupidity, misreading the public mood and not understanding the character of the English people.
I saw on facebook that there's a specific FB group been set up to report post Brexit race-hate crimes.
These are all to be condemned, but the level of reporting has surely increased - Remainers are looking for it at every turn.
Genuinely don't understand those who are seeking to make it worse for the UK now, taking a perverse glee in stock market or £ falls, or rushing to report unsavoury incidents. We are where we are - let's get on with it!
One MP yesterday actually made point about one single twitter comment. Its absurd. In a country of 60 million people, some of them are going to be rude to others.
Good afternoon all. Some people are obnoxious. They'll always find a way to be that way. I've ended up in fights for possessing any or all of the following offensive attributes: tall, glasses, white, Irish surname, tg, ugly.
The idea that June 22nd was some kind of prelapsarian idyll is a nonsense. Given all the heightened emotion, I'd be entirely unsurprised if there wasn't an uptick in ugliness. However, we can expect British good sense and tolerance to slap it down in fairly short order.
If the UK's natural state were something akin to pre- civil liberties Mississippi, then we wouldn't have had so many immigrants. Our tolerance has been one of the attractions.
Cameron announced the referendum, went to negotiate a deal, and got one (a good one). Perhaps the EU is unreformable but his deal cemented our special status within, or perhaps call it alongside it. Even if you think the deal is useless, do I think that Dave should have done anything differently? Not really. Why should he have played the cute games that the EU might have been playing? He went to negotiate a deal, negotiated a deal and we voted on it. If people say "well you should have played hardball, delayed, threatened, etc" well that is no way to conduct diplomacy. As we now see, compared with what we are about to get, it was not only good, it was great.
If Cameron`s deal was as good as you claim, Mr Topping, why didn`t Cameron and Osborne campaign positively on his supposed triumph?
Could it have been that even they did not think it was a world-beater?
First, I think that they were worried they would lose the vote and so felt impelled to go straight out Project Fear rather than explaining what they had achieved. I did hear them spell it out, but it was not an explanation easy to digest; hence
Secondly, the deal was pretty clear - no ever closer union, no banking union, no discrimination between eurozone vs non-eurozone. But it is fair to say it is both slightly nuanced and also not easy to comprehend without going too far into details of the Single Supervisory Mechanism; and finally
Thirdly, the British Public deals in primary colours, not nuanced arguments, and hence, again, Project Fear rather than the positive elements of something not particularly intuitively obvious.
If the UK's natural state were something akin to pre- civil liberties Mississippi, then we wouldn't have had so many immigrants. Our tolerance has been one of the attractions.
Absolutely. And I don;t sense there is any real yearning in the country for another GE.
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Do you think it matters who he is up against? Perhaps the smart money would be on a candidate that he agrees to endorse having stepped down.
From memory of something written last year I think that would be Lisa Nandy but while nominated she wouldn't win.
Continually looking at the list of possible candidates I think the answer is Tom Watson - not that it will make any difference to the devastation an October Election will reap upon them....
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
Conservatives will want a leader who is in favour of LEAVE to ensure we have a determined LEAVE negotiator.
We know May isn't in favour of LEAVE but is Boris actually in favour of LEAVE?
Which potential Conservative leader has been consistently in favour of LEAVE - Liam Fox?
I'd forgotten that May was a Remainer - she spent the campaign having cocktails with Jezzer no doubt - so the party seems to be heading for replacing a Remain leader with another Remain leader? Surely that will cook Brexit's goose?
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
I think he has overcome his phobia with a course of hypnotherapy.
Friday: bloody hell they've voted out Monday: bloody hell there's no plan Tuesday: The new normal
Yup. And lots of sheep/headless chickens have been eaten by cleverer wolves.
One in the family said this morning "I made £500 on a £4k purchase of RBS shares" in a few days on top of hundreds made on silver and there was me advising a careful approach.
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
I think he has overcome his phobia with a course of hypnotherapy.
Mr. Song, if/when I must change, I'll certainly be looking at alternatives. As I said, my main needs are browsing the interweb and word processor (can't be a writer without that).
Mr. Dancer, can I respectfully suggest that you look at a ChromeBook? Brilliant bits of kit. No virus problems and all that nonsense, very fast to fire up, all your work is up there in the cloud so no need to worry about back-ups. I bought Herself one a couple of years ago and it has proved a great success.
The only downside is that one has to use Google Docs for word processing rather than MS Word, but to be honest Google Docs does everything that a normal or medium-advanced user ever needs to do. I have been using it for years without a problem or finding I could not do something I wanted to.
The other advantage with a Chrome Book, especially for someone living on a character building level of income, is they are cheap - much cheaper than a decent laptop PC and absurdly cheap compared to the Mac.
Conservatives will want a leader who is in favour of LEAVE to ensure we have a determined LEAVE negotiator.
We know May isn't in favour of LEAVE but is Boris actually in favour of LEAVE?
Which potential Conservative leader has been consistently in favour of LEAVE - Liam Fox?
Ugh.
BTW, the Totnes constituency membership lady told me this morning that there has been quite an uptick in membership in recent days. But at £25 a go, probably less of the politically malicious than Labour at £3.
Probably rejoining because Cameron and Feldman will soon be gone?
My local Conservative Association have opted out of CAMS - the central membership database. I think that's in direct response to the Feldman power grab. I've renewed directly with them rather than using the internet system that hoovers off £5 for every £25 fee.
If Cameron had backed Leave, he'd have carried all before him - his Party members, his MPs and most of his voters/plus all those other Leavers. Talk about backing the wrong side. The subject of many future books.
Not all those who voted Leave would have backed Cameron, Ms Plato. I was in two minds, until the very end.
If Cameron and Osborne had been on the Leave side, with their dirty tricks, threats and bullying, I would have found it very easy to go for Remain, who would presumably have had a much more respectful campaign.
I think Cameron wouldn't have resorted to threats and bullying if he'd been truer to his previous campaigning style of offering hope and future pride in Britain. That got him into Number 10 twice.
It was because he'd accepted such a poor deal that he resorted to Project Fear. TBH, I think that's why so many of his previous supporters [like me] were so appalled by it.
I think they misunderstood everything almost from the outset.
The opinion polls had been pro-leave for a large part of the previous six years as Europe stumbled from debt crisis to migrant crisis. There was never the entanglement and attachment that Scotland and the UK have.
Cameron’s deal was not strong enough. What kind of pointless fudge is a one-off, four year emergency brake? A sticking plaster, not a cure.
The process of renegotiation revealed how powerless Cameron and the UK were, and the symbolic act of him having to plead for change amply demonstrated it.
The £9m leaflet annoyed people as there was a sense that it wasn’t a fair fight. The sight of Cameron smirking next to Obama diminished him. It was an epic failure of judgement and Remain’s trump card – trust in Dave – vanished with these things.
Pre-purdah, the barrage of Remain publicity maintained Leaver shyness, but as soon as it ended momentum changed.
The migration figures were horrendous and the Remain campaign then set about insulting everyone, though some on PB were well ahead of the game on that score.
Putting Sturgeon and Izzard on TV to talk to middle England was an act of astonishing stupidity. It isn’t just what they said, or even how they shouted it, but it’s what they symbolise. Luvviedom. Wealthy detachment. Anti-UK. Anti-British. Anti-English.
Then came the Jo Cox incident.
It could have swayed things Remain’s way, but it did not. It derailed their economic message and the temptation to go too far was too much for too many of the Remain left to resist. Everyone was a racist. Everyone was xenophobic.
Insulting people isn’t very persuasive and just stiffens resolve.
The Independent: Nigel Farage warns that Tories are 'backsliding' over immigration and could keep free movement of labour. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw5pSO4yU
We said that is wasn't going to happen not because he didn't think it was a good idea, but because he didn't have a prayer of getting it through parliament.
We have always been given to believe from PB threads and elsewhere that it was nigh on impossible to remove Corbyn as Labour leader against his will. Yet if today's vote of no confidence goes against him, it would seem that this has been achieved in just two days, with the process having been instigated by just one individual. It appears that Labour's leadership rules are not so impregnable after all.
10.40 Graham Allen, Labour’s MP from Nottingham North is reportedly boycotting today’s no confidence vote... says he will abstain from the vote to avoid legitimising any particular faction. He also voices discontent over a vote that has no procedural standing in the party.
10.31 Labour MPs expect a two-thirds vote of no confidence in Corbyn when the result is announced around 4:30pm. They then expect a mass resignation of whips (a leader's last line of defence) to follow.
I'm also told there is "growing pressure" on Tom Watson from all wings of the party to stand against Corbyn.
Watson is a Grade A bruiser, but leader? Oh no. He's no finesse, no charm and dresses like a cheap Mafia don.
I still think Angela Eagles is the best on offer, there's something so genuine about her - and she's very good in Parly. She's not my cup of tea - but I can see her actually caring, rather than grandstanding/attention seeking.
Jarvis has nothing but a spec of backstory.
Plato also wanted Corbyn to remain as leader. She wants Eagle for obvious reasons.
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
I think he has overcome his phobia with a course of hypnotherapy.
It's not at all clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn has retained the support among the members that he previously had. The Leave vote, odd though it seems to me, seems to have been a pivotal moment in the thinking of quite a few of them. If he does push this to a vote of the members, he might very well find himself (still further) humiliated.
Yes.
Most likely we'll have a competitive selectorate with corbyn supporters in the minority.
A fair bit depends on the dynamics of the tory contest and the timing of any lab vote. eg, If Theresa May is going hard on abolishing human rights in an attempt to appeal to the con membership, I could see the remain Corbynites rallying behind him as a kind of opposite reaction.
If it's like a boris/crabb contest or something with the focus on the economy, it'll likely be the core corbynites vs a large just-signed-up-to-labour, anyone-but-corbyn block.
Last years corbyn revolution in reverse with the voting system and open selectorate working heavily against him.
PlatoSaid "If Team Boris does it - this would be my line-up"
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team. Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.) Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid? Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Gove doesn't fly. You couldn't have a Foreign Minister who can't and won't get on a plane...
Cameron announced the referendum, went to negotiate a deal, and got one (a good one). Perhaps the EU is unreformable but his deal cemented our special status within, or perhaps call it alongside it. Even if you think the deal is useless, do I think that Dave should have done anything differently? Not really. Why should he have played the cute games that the EU might have been playing? He went to negotiate a deal, negotiated a deal and we voted on it. If people say "well you should have played hardball, delayed, threatened, etc" well that is no way to conduct diplomacy. As we now see, compared with what we are about to get, it was not only good, it was great.
If Cameron`s deal was as good as you claim, Mr Topping, why didn`t Cameron and Osborne campaign positively on his supposed triumph?
Could it have been that even they did not thnk it was a world-beater?
Probably because whatever deal they had struck on immigration would have been unsatisfactory to many Leave voters who won't be happy with any migrants coming here. They'd have been fools to campaign on it.
They did not have to convince all the people inclined to vote to leave, just enough of them. Campaigning with a positive message of what they had achieved might have done that.
As it was there were people like me who remembered what Cameron had said in 2013 about reforming the EU and only staying in a reformed EU. Remembered what he said about his deal at the time and wondered whether it was worth the paper it was written on. Then when he failed even to really mention it let alone campaign on it wondered why and, personally, came to the conclusion that it was therefore probably not worth the paper it was written on.
Furthermore, it made Cameron look duplicitous or, more accurately, more duplicitous. Then when he went big on all the silly scare stories from the outset, I think he ceased to be listened to let alone believed. Osborne's punishment budget threat was the final straw.
Considering the polling at the outset of the whole process the referendum was Cameron's to lose. He lost it, through I think arrogance, stupidity, misreading the public mood and not understanding the character of the English people.
We will have to agree to disagree. I think he lost because of dislike of immigration amongst poorly educated pensioners and tradespeople, And because the white working class in the North and Midlands voted to give London a kick up the backside, which was easy for them to do because in many cases they had nothing or very little to lose.
The Independent: Nigel Farage warns that Tories are 'backsliding' over immigration and could keep free movement of labour. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw5pSO4yU
Isn't this the Labour nightmare scenario? Tories are generally more comfortable with migration than WWC Labour or UKIP, they keep it in some form with a few token changes to keep our single market membership, this satisfies most Con voters leave or remain. Labour are left either supporting this or arguing for continued EU membership and ignoring the vote to leave. Around 40% of Labour voters were in the leave camp which is 12% on 2015 GE shares, how much of that could UKIP hoover up?
Mr. Llama, I'm currently using Open Office rather than MS Word, (not tried Google Docs). Lower price is, of course, appealing if/when the point of buying something else arrives.
Thanks to you, and Mr. Song, for the suggestion. Hopefully a replacement machine is some way off, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.
Mr. Eek, I think, if we have to have a plane-fearing Foreign Secretary, I'd prefer Mr. T to get the gig.
We have always been given to believe from PB threads and elsewhere that it was nigh on impossible to remove Corbyn as Labour leader against his will. Yet if today's vote of no confidence goes against him, it would seem that this has been achieved in just two days, with the process having been instigated by just one individual. It appears that Labour's leadership rules are not so impregnable after all.
But to be removed he would have to be successfully challanged in a ballot of the members. As of now he is far from removed.
Comments
I saw on facebook that there's a specific FB group been set up to report post Brexit race-hate crimes.
These are all to be condemned, but the level of reporting has surely increased - Remainers are looking for it at every turn.
Genuinely don't understand those who are seeking to make it worse for the UK now, taking a perverse glee in stock market or £ falls, or rushing to report unsavoury incidents. We are where we are - let's get on with it!
Microsoft do make it hard to avoid this update but we have so far managed to block it.
A friend was less successful and has had no end of problems since much of his software was not compatible with Windows 10 following the upgrade.
I have had to move browser from Internet Explorer to Mozilla Firefox because Microsoft have stopped supporting my version of IE.
Microsoft doing their best to alienate their customer base.
"What is the Single Market? It is not a free trade area. It was created mainly by Delors in order to spark further political integration in the EEC, as Delors said himself on many occasions. It was sold in Britain as a trade liberalising project, partly because of the cunning of Lord Cockfield and the Foreign Office in presenting it as such to Thatcher who did not listen to John Hoskyns on the subject. SM rules were created to fulfil a primarily political purpose, not an economic one.
You do not need ‘rules of a Single Market’ in order to promote trade, as all the other countries in the world know. In many fields, the regulatory harmonisation of the Single Market is far more extreme than that imposed by the federal government on US states.
A small proportion of companies would suffer problems if we were to leave the Single Market without any transitional arrangements. Others would gain."
https://dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/on-the-referendum-3-the-errors-of-steve-richards/
The two biggest wins, and I know you don't agree with this, are getting out of the political union and removing ourselves from ECJ jurisdiction. Once we leave the Supreme Court will be the highest arbiter in the land. As someone who believes in rule of law, I'll be glad to see the back of the charter of fundamental rights and ever closer union being used by the ECJ to push through unpopular rulings against member states.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/08/boris-johnson-immigration-ukip_n_6430128.html
Turned off automatic updates. Two 'recommended' ones appear to install Windows 10 nagware.
Like you, I'm getting hacked off. When I need to change my computer, I might just buy something else which won't bloody pester me all the time. I just want to browse the internet and use a word processor, without having an OS knocking on my computer asking to be let in.
https://twitter.com/hammersmithandy/status/747710072743206913
BTW, the Totnes constituency membership lady told me this morning that there has been quite an uptick in membership in recent days. But at £25 a go, probably less of the politically malicious than Labour at £3.
I've seen something (separate and elsewhere) that confirms it and there was the separate comment from here that the Foreign Office don't have a plan because they really were not allowed to formulate one...
Would Boris be the leading candiate for Remainers who accept that the new leader should be someone from the LEAVE campaign?
Gove - Chancellor
Leadsom - First Sec Treasury
Raab - Justice Sec
Villiers - FSec
Priti - Home
Eustice - Defra
IDS - Defence
Fox - Health
Olive branches to Remainers
Hunt or Hammond - beefed up DTI
May - DWP
Greening - DCMS
AN Other - DifD
Grayling - kicked upstairs
Whittingdale - kicked upstairs
I'd like to see Gisela and Hoey offered formal roles on the Brexit team negotiations.
And the French are a completely disinterested observer who have no reason for wanting to make sure that no-one blames them for the UK leaving the EU, so we should believe completely and whole-heartedly what they say.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/747749726498459648
Do you have to be against immigration if you voted LEAVE? personally, I'm in favour of it. I just want our government to control it. That way, we get a more consistent quality of immigrant. Fewer criminals and people who can;t support themselves. More people who can.
On a personal note, Boris, like me, is a classicist, and I would love to see a classicist in Number 10.
PMQs would be enlivened with Boris talking about the Battle of Ipsus
But what this site is really good for isn't arguing the rights and wrongs, it's working out what politicians will do and what will win and lose them elections. And looking at the options politicians have for the situation they now find themselves in, I'm not seeing anything remotely as attractive as "EEA quick, grand-stand on immigration benefits". (*)
(*) This assumes public opinion doesn't move far enough that they can actually _reverse_ Brexit, but that would have to be quite a big shift, and thus far we've seen no evidence of any shift at all, beyond a bunch of anecdotes.
As it was there were people like me who remembered what Cameron had said in 2013 about reforming the EU and only staying in a reformed EU. Remembered what he said about his deal at the time and wondered whether it was worth the paper it was written on. Then when he failed even to really mention it let alone campaign on it wondered why and, personally, came to the conclusion that it was therefore probably not worth the paper it was written on.
Furthermore, it made Cameron look duplicitous or, more accurately, more duplicitous. Then when he went big on all the silly scare stories from the outset, I think he ceased to be listened to let alone believed. Osborne's punishment budget threat was the final straw.
Considering the polling at the outset of the whole process the referendum was Cameron's to lose. He lost it, through I think arrogance, stupidity, misreading the public mood and not understanding the character of the English people.
The idea that June 22nd was some kind of prelapsarian idyll is a nonsense. Given all the heightened emotion, I'd be entirely unsurprised if there wasn't an uptick in ugliness. However, we can expect British good sense and tolerance to slap it down in fairly short order.
If the UK's natural state were something akin to pre- civil liberties Mississippi, then we wouldn't have had so many immigrants. Our tolerance has been one of the attractions.
Secondly, the deal was pretty clear - no ever closer union, no banking union, no discrimination between eurozone vs non-eurozone. But it is fair to say it is both slightly nuanced and also not easy to comprehend without going too far into details of the Single Supervisory Mechanism; and finally
Thirdly, the British Public deals in primary colours, not nuanced arguments, and hence, again, Project Fear rather than the positive elements of something not particularly intuitively obvious.
Looks like the final meeting of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet.
https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/747752368805130240
Absolutely. And I don;t sense there is any real yearning in the country for another GE.
I would put Gove as FO - It needs a lot of polite personal discussion with a good eye on the principles. Bring back Mark Francois as Europe Minister and someone like Digby Jones into the team.
Leadsom to Chancellor (great head for figures, team oriented and as dry as dust financially able to deal with Carney etc.)
Appoint Graham Brady to head of Whips Office
Grayling to Dfid to find ways of curbing it, maybe make any EU contributions part of overseas aid?
Villiers to Education (anyone but Ms Morgan)
Continually looking at the list of possible candidates I think the answer is Tom Watson - not that it will make any difference to the devastation an October Election will reap upon them....
https://twitter.com/jasongroves1/status/747741843815800832
The MP for Clacton should resign the whip.
If only I was.... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/20/michael-gove-eurosceptics-eu-leave-campaign
The only downside is that one has to use Google Docs for word processing rather than MS Word, but to be honest Google Docs does everything that a normal or medium-advanced user ever needs to do. I have been using it for years without a problem or finding I could not do something I wanted to.
The other advantage with a Chrome Book, especially for someone living on a character building level of income, is they are cheap - much cheaper than a decent laptop PC and absurdly cheap compared to the Mac.
The opinion polls had been pro-leave for a large part of the previous six years as Europe stumbled from debt crisis to migrant crisis. There was never the entanglement and attachment that Scotland and the UK have.
Cameron’s deal was not strong enough. What kind of pointless fudge is a one-off, four year emergency brake? A sticking plaster, not a cure.
The process of renegotiation revealed how powerless Cameron and the UK were, and the symbolic act of him having to plead for change amply demonstrated it.
The £9m leaflet annoyed people as there was a sense that it wasn’t a fair fight. The sight of Cameron smirking next to Obama diminished him. It was an epic failure of judgement and Remain’s trump card – trust in Dave – vanished with these things.
Pre-purdah, the barrage of Remain publicity maintained Leaver shyness, but as soon as it ended momentum changed.
The migration figures were horrendous and the Remain campaign then set about insulting everyone, though some on PB were well ahead of the game on that score.
Putting Sturgeon and Izzard on TV to talk to middle England was an act of astonishing stupidity. It isn’t just what they said, or even how they shouted it, but it’s what they symbolise. Luvviedom. Wealthy detachment. Anti-UK. Anti-British. Anti-English.
Then came the Jo Cox incident.
It could have swayed things Remain’s way, but it did not. It derailed their economic message and the temptation to go too far was too much for too many of the Remain left to resist. Everyone was a racist. Everyone was xenophobic.
Insulting people isn’t very persuasive and just stiffens resolve.
Yet if today's vote of no confidence goes against him, it would seem that this has been achieved in just two days, with the process having been instigated by just one individual.
It appears that Labour's leadership rules are not so impregnable after all.
Even when we're out of the EU, he still represents Britain abroad. He makes us look like complete arseholes.
No wonder they're glad to see the back of us.
Most likely we'll have a competitive selectorate with corbyn supporters in the minority.
A fair bit depends on the dynamics of the tory contest and the timing of any lab vote. eg, If Theresa May is going hard on abolishing human rights in an attempt to appeal to the con membership, I could see the remain Corbynites rallying behind him as a kind of opposite reaction.
If it's like a boris/crabb contest or something with the focus on the economy, it'll likely be the core corbynites vs a large just-signed-up-to-labour, anyone-but-corbyn block.
Last years corbyn revolution in reverse with the voting system and open selectorate working heavily against him.
Thanks to you, and Mr. Song, for the suggestion. Hopefully a replacement machine is some way off, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.
Mr. Eek, I think, if we have to have a plane-fearing Foreign Secretary, I'd prefer Mr. T to get the gig.