@NoahsStowAway: @JohnRentoul@TSEofPB Still yet to meet a remain supporter in real life. Cannot see how it is judged close except for preparing the big lie
With some confusion at present in the betting markets, caused by conflicting poll results, one of the more attractive bets in terms of value would seem to be Ladbrokes' odds of 10/11 for the turnout to be between 60% - 70%. I really don't see it exceeding the top of this range and the minimum turnout in my view would be around 57%, therefore a price of almost even money appears to me to be worth taking. DYOR.
“There are just three weeks to go until the referendum vote on 23 June, but too much of the debate so far has been dominated by myth-making and prophecies of doom... In the final stage of this referendum, as we get closer to what is expected by many to be a very tight vote, it does not help the debate over such a serious issue if the hype and histrionic claims continue or worse intensify."
“Just over a week ago, George Osborne claimed that the British economy would enter a year-long recession if we voted to leave. This is the same George Osborne who predicted his austerity policies would close the deficit by 2015. That’s now scheduled for 2021."
“It’s the same George Osborne who said the British economy would be ‘carried aloft by the march of the makers’, yet the manufacturing sector has stagnated ever since - and manufacturing employment declined.”
I lived in Germany from 1998 to 2008, and I was also struck by the completely different attitude to the EU. While some Germans regarded the EU with exasperation and annoyance, there was non of the outright hostility that was prevalent in the UK even then. They tended to see the EU as their family - irritating and awkward sometimes, but still "us". The UK attitude, in contrast, has been very much "us" and "them" for the last few decades. Personally, I put the most blame for this on the insidious nature of an enduring anti-EU campaign by the British press.
I am not at all surprised and I don't believe it has a damn thing to do with the British Press. The UK has never been part of Europe in the same way that continental countries have. We have always been the awkward place off to the left that didn't give in to the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, the French again or the Germans, but we fought with them all to stop any of them getting too big and to preserve our own interests. We have always remained separate and have never been ruled by any of them, whilst they have repeatedly conquered and ruled each other (frequently until the UK put together an alliance and busted it up).
Remember too, Mr. Enjineeya, the press exists to sell papers so they are more likely to reflect rather than lead opinion. If the UK press appears to you to be anti-EU that is because that is what their readers want to see. The old, probably apocryphal, headline, "Fog in the channel - Continent cut off", resonates because it captures a mood of the people of these islands.
We do not belong in the EU, our whole history and tradition (legal, trading, whatever you like) goes against it. We will never be happy partners in this political construct and so it's probably best for all if we get out now. We can still be friends, we can cooperate when our interests collide (with have with Portugal since 1373), but we will never be comfortable "pooling sovereignty" to the level demanded by the EU.
Can't see a British government doing that. Not ALL our problems is the fault of the E.U. but our politicians always blame the E.U so is it any wonder the citizens do the same.
“There are just three weeks to go until the referendum vote on 23 June, but too much of the debate so far has been dominated by myth-making and prophecies of doom... In the final stage of this referendum, as we get closer to what is expected by many to be a very tight vote, it does not help the debate over such a serious issue if the hype and histrionic claims continue or worse intensify."
“Just over a week ago, George Osborne claimed that the British economy would enter a year-long recession if we voted to leave. This is the same George Osborne who predicted his austerity policies would close the deficit by 2015. That’s now scheduled for 2021."
“It’s the same George Osborne who said the British economy would be ‘carried aloft by the march of the makers’, yet the manufacturing sector has stagnated ever since - and manufacturing employment declined.”
Jeremy Corbyn is Alanbrooke and I claim my five pounds.
Just like Cameron and Osborne after the EU referendum,some reputations on here will be damaged,especially the ship jumpers and the pretend of sitting on the fence bullshitters.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Source please?
I'll add a proper link in the thread I publish headlined 'Thatcher would back Remain'
She wouldn't back REMAIN - read "Statescraft", wot she published in 2002.
Andrew Lilico Labour voters: your leader says Treasury forecasts of Brexit's economic impact are "hysterical hype", "histrionic" & "prophecies of doom".
Corbyn is correct.
It's hilarious. Agent Corbyn strikes again. It was an appalling speech, but the quotes are fantastic.
I lived in Germany from 1998 to 2008, and I was also struck by the completely different attitude to the EU. While some Germans regarded the EU with exasperation and annoyance, there was non of the outright hostility that was prevalent in the UK even then. They tended to see the EU as their family - irritating and awkward sometimes, but still "us". The UK attitude, in contrast, has been very much "us" and "them" for the last few decades. Personally, I put the most blame for this on the insidious nature of an enduring anti-EU campaign by the British press.
I am not at all surprised and I don't believe it has a damn thing to do with the British Press. The UK has never been part of Europe in the same way that continental countries have. We have always been the awkward place off to the left that didn't give in to the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, the French again or the Germans, but we fought with them all to stop any of them getting too big and to preserve our own interests. We have always remained separate and have never been ruled by any of them, whilst they have repeatedly conquered and ruled each other (frequently until the UK put together an alliance and busted it up).
Remember too, Mr. Enjineeya, the press exists to sell papers so they are more likely to reflect rather than lead opinion. If the UK press appears to you to be anti-EU that is because that is what their readers want to see. The old, probably apocryphal, headline, "Fog in the channel - Continent cut off", resonates because it captures a mood of the people of these islands.
We do not belong in the EU, our whole history and tradition (legal, trading, whatever you like) goes against it. We will never be happy partners in this political construct and so it's probably best for all if we get out now. We can still be friends, we can cooperate when our interests collide (with have with Portugal since 1373), but we will never be comfortable "pooling sovereignty" to the level demanded by the EU.
I put on the Dambusters theme, stood up and saluted while I read that.
No, and not entirely without warning, but in quiet technical discussions which were exposing how little they had done - or could do - or intended to do. I was a hands on, helpful boss. Young people would ask for help - handing their work over really. But older people just want to set their excuses up - 'I don't know why my name is against this work...', 'I don't believe a business case has been properly made...', 'The spec isn't good enough, customers should write in UML...', 'We shouldn't be dictated to by customers...', 'I am thinking of the perfect design, you can't see it, but the code will be written in the last 2% of the project...'. Young people are still pretending to themselves, older people want their bosses to pretend for them. Treating an older worker as a young worker caused the rows.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
A German Chancellor lecturing Britain. What could possibly go wrong?
Mr. Eagles, Agincourt*. I realise you're for Remain but using the French term for an English victory is just perverse.
Mr. Dancer, The UK has changed a lot in my lifetime, mostly for the better, but I do not believe the basic instincts of the population have changed too much. We are still essentially a bloody-minded, stubborn, freedom-loving, loyal people. We do not like being threatened.
Obama tried it a few weeks ago and that backfired, and now Frau Merkel has had a go. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs their head read. If, and this is a big if, Cameron had advance warning and didn't move to shut her up then I can only put that down to mounting panic in the corridors of power. But we shall see.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Mr. Llama, I broadly agree, though a lot of opinion-formers and well-to-do chaps (who inhabit the upper echelons of media and politics) are very pro-EU.
Mr. Nabavi, if Cameron hadn't wrecked his own credibility then Vote Leave wouldn't be trying to take advantage of the distrust with which he is now viewed.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Richard "Arch PB Scaremongerer" Nabavi
Not at all, I'm a great optimist - only the other day I put the probability of there being little short-term damage to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 5%.
Good poster. Shame for Remain that Dodgy Dave is shit out of trust.
Turkey is joining the EU as in it has started the process of joining and the terms for acceptance have been laid out.
Mind you, the way the craven EU are acting, Turkey will get everything it wants without actually joining. Remember that the EU gave Ford millions to take business away from the UK and set up a factory in Turkey.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Honestly now, are you worried that the electorate will vote Brexit?
I'm not. I don't think it will happen..
But, I've been talking to my rugby friends (many from Cardiff and the Vale etc - nice parts of Wales) and to a man we are taken aback by the (almost zero) support for Remain. Almost everyone seems to be for Brexit.
I must admit, I'm surprised - despite not liking the EU much at all myself.
Bollocks. Most markets for most goods through most of history have not been regulated. Why should banana shape be regulated at all? Where does regulation 'for the sake of a level playing field' end? With no choice for the consumer?
Regulation is a political choice just like anything else. Much regulation should be pushed down to the lowest level of government appropriate, not all of it pushed up the the highest.
You are confusing two different points. Should banana shape be regulated at all? No, I would say not. But if it is regulated, it should be done at the single-market level, not at the individual country level, otherwise it acts as a non-tariff barrier.
I don't think any EU member countries grow bananas.
However, what are the actual EU regulations that apply to the import and sale of bananas?
I lived in Germany from 1998 to 2008, and I was also struck by the completely different attitude to the EU. While some Germans regarded the EU with exasperation and annoyance, there was non of the outright hostility that was prevalent in the UK even then. They tended to see the EU as their family - irritating and awkward sometimes, but still "us". The UK attitude, in contrast, has been very much "us" and "them" for the last few decades. Personally, I put the most blame for this on the insidious nature of an enduring anti-EU campaign by the British press.
I am not at all surprised and I don't believe it has a damn thing to do with the British Press. The UK has never been part of Europe in the same way that continental countries have. We have always been the awkward place off to the left that didn't give in to the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, the French again or the Germans, but we fought with them all to stop any of them getting too big and to preserve our own interests. We have always remained separate and have never been ruled by any of them, whilst they have repeatedly conquered and ruled each other (frequently until the UK put together an alliance and busted it up).
Remember too, Mr. Enjineeya, the press exists to sell papers so they are more likely to reflect rather than lead opinion. If the UK press appears to you to be anti-EU that is because that is what their readers want to see. The old, probably apocryphal, headline, "Fog in the channel - Continent cut off", resonates because it captures a mood of the people of these islands.
We do not belong in the EU, our whole history and tradition (legal, trading, whatever you like) goes against it. We will never be happy partners in this political construct and so it's probably best for all if we get out now. We can still be friends, we can cooperate when our interests collide (with have with Portugal since 1373), but we will never be comfortable "pooling sovereignty" to the level demanded by the EU.
I put on the Dambusters theme, stood up and saluted while I read that.
Good for you, Mr Dawning, and I hope you had a nice time listening to rather old popular music.
I note that you did not offer a critique of any of the idea I put forward.
Honestly now, are you worried that the electorate will vote Brexit?
I'm not. I don't think it will happen..
Yes, I think it is possible. Basically the polling is so confusing that it's very hard to be sure. My central forecast is still something around 56% or so Remain, and I still expect a shift towards the status quo in the actual referendum, but around any forecast the error bars should be quite wide IMO. So anything from a narrow Leave result to Remain getting over 60% is quite possible, I think.
Bollocks. Most markets for most goods through most of history have not been regulated. Why should banana shape be regulated at all? Where does regulation 'for the sake of a level playing field' end? With no choice for the consumer?
Regulation is a political choice just like anything else. Much regulation should be pushed down to the lowest level of government appropriate, not all of it pushed up the the highest.
You are confusing two different points. Should banana shape be regulated at all? No, I would say not. But if it is regulated, it should be done at the single-market level, not at the individual country level, otherwise it acts as a non-tariff barrier.
I don't think any EU member countries grow bananas.
...
Cyprus? They certainly did when I was posted there, but that was a good few years ago. How about France? The French Caribbean territories are for the purposes of the EU regarded as part of Metropolitan France, do they not have any banana plantations?
No doubt Osborne would like to lay it at the door of looming Brexit
Can't polish a turd as they say. Terrible news for the 11,000 people who work there, but it doesn't surprise me as a bit like Woolies it is in terrible shape and in comparison to the competition / trends etc it is a terrible business.
“There are just three weeks to go until the referendum vote on 23 June, but too much of the debate so far has been dominated by myth-making and prophecies of doom... In the final stage of this referendum, as we get closer to what is expected by many to be a very tight vote, it does not help the debate over such a serious issue if the hype and histrionic claims continue or worse intensify."
“Just over a week ago, George Osborne claimed that the British economy would enter a year-long recession if we voted to leave. This is the same George Osborne who predicted his austerity policies would close the deficit by 2015. That’s now scheduled for 2021."
“It’s the same George Osborne who said the British economy would be ‘carried aloft by the march of the makers’, yet the manufacturing sector has stagnated ever since - and manufacturing employment declined.”
Jeremy Corbyn is Alanbrooke and I claim my five pounds.
It's a bit like being Spartacus, evetyone is turning in to Alanbrooke when it comes to Osborne.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
Honestly now, are you worried that the electorate will vote Brexit?
I'm not. I don't think it will happen..
Yes, I think it is possible. Basically the polling is so confusing that it's very hard to be sure. My central forecast is still something around 56% or so Remain, and I still expect a shift towards the status quo in the actual referendum, but around any forecast the error bars should be quite wide IMO. So anything from a narrow Leave result to Remain getting over 60% is quite possible, I think.
Thank you! I remember asking you on GE voting day whether you believed the polls.. I just couldn't envisage Ed M as PM, much as I can't envisage Brexit... but there were very few of us who believed Cameron would still be PM the day after.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Personally I agree with both parts (and I think corbyn does as well) - I don't trust Osborne's predictions, and I do think that a post-Brexit Tory government will be much more right-wing (and from my perspective harmful) than anything seen to date. So it's not an encouragement of a belief which we think false. We might be wrong, of course, but that's another matter!
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Richard "Arch PB Scaremongerer" Nabavi
Not at all, I'm a great optimist - only the other day I put the probability of there being little short-term damage to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 5%.
While I assume you're joking there, didn't you simultaneously put the possibility of there being a short-term benefit to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 0%?
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Personally I agree with both parts (and I think corbyn does as well) - I don't trust Osborne's predictions, and I do think that a post-Brexit Tory government will be much more right-wing (and from my perspective harmful) than anything seen to date. So it's not an encouragement of a belief which we think false. We might be wrong, of course, but that's another matter!
Fair enough, mate, but just out of interest, specifically, in what areas of policy do you think this new right wing Tory government will "run amok"?
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
And if LEAVE win, how about you?
I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an exciting time for PB.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Richard "Arch PB Scaremongerer" Nabavi
Not at all, I'm a great optimist - only the other day I put the probability of there being little short-term damage to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 5%.
While I assume you're joking there, didn't you simultaneously put the possibility of there being a short-term benefit to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 0%?
Yes, I did. I can't see that there's much doubt about that - where would any benefit come from (in the short-term)?
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
The process for Turkey joining the EU is not imaginary, it has already begun. It is a matter of public record and our government's policy is to encourage it not veto it.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Personally I agree with both parts (and I think corbyn does as well) - I don't trust Osborne's predictions, and I do think that a post-Brexit Tory government will be much more right-wing (and from my perspective harmful) than anything seen to date. So it's not an encouragement of a belief which we think false. We might be wrong, of course, but that's another matter!
Fair enough, mate, but just out of interest, specifically, in what areas of policy do you think this new right wing Tory government will "run amok"?
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
And if LEAVE win, how about you?
I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an exciting time for PB.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Personally I agree with both parts (and I think corbyn does as well) - I don't trust Osborne's predictions, and I do think that a post-Brexit Tory government will be much more right-wing (and from my perspective harmful) than anything seen to date. So it's not an encouragement of a belief which we think false. We might be wrong, of course, but that's another matter!
Fair enough, mate, but just out of interest, specifically, in what areas of policy do you think this new right wing Tory government will "run amok"?
They'll be hugely relaxed about everyone getting filthy rich.
And so we come full circle: back to arguing about which side a corpse would vote for and refighting World War Two.
Wait until see my thread for this weekend. I mention, inter alia, Overlord and Waterloo, still trying to work in a reference to Azincourt
How about the Corn Laws and their similarity with current EU tariffs on grain imports?
There's one sat in drafts saying Cameron is Sir Bobby Peel and this referendum is the new corn laws for the Tory party. It needs some finishing work on it.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
And if LEAVE win, how about you?
I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an exciting time for PB.
Be honest, Mr. Brooke, did you actually know that little snippet before this morning or did you Google it up?
I have been to Mainau and if you like gardens it's really a beautiful spot to visit. As is all of Lake Constance. Mainau is at the Swiss end and Lindau at the Austrian, worth a trip if youre down that way.
Bollocks. Most markets for most goods through most of history have not been regulated. Why should banana shape be regulated at all? Where does regulation 'for the sake of a level playing field' end? With no choice for the consumer?
Regulation is a political choice just like anything else. Much regulation should be pushed down to the lowest level of government appropriate, not all of it pushed up the the highest.
You are confusing two different points. Should banana shape be regulated at all? No, I would say not. But if it is regulated, it should be done at the single-market level, not at the individual country level, otherwise it acts as a non-tariff barrier.
I don't think any EU member countries grow bananas.
However, what are the actual EU regulations that apply to the import and sale of bananas?
Be honest, Mr. Brooke, did you actually know that little snippet before this morning or did you Google it up?
I have been to Mainau and if you like gardens it's really a beautiful spot to visit. As is all of Lake Constance. Mainau is at the Swiss end and Lindau at the Austrian, worth a trip if youre down that way.
The collective knowledge of the denizens of this site never ceases to amaze me.
Andrew Neil may not be the BBC’s official lead political interviewer (presumably BBC management are a bit twitchy about his role with the Spectator, and his past as an opinionated Murdoch editor) but there is no one at the corporation who turns up to an interview better briefed, or who is less likely to miss the weak spot in a politician’s argument. Which explains why it is so rare that he gets the chance to interview someone like David Cameron.
But he is going to do four big interviews as part of the BBC’s EU referendum coverage. One, with George Osborne, has already been announced. Now we have the final list.
Monday 6 June: Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary (Remain)
Wednesday 8 June: George Osborne, the chancellor (Remain)
Friday 10 June: Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader (Leave)
Friday 17 June: Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary (Leave)
Why would the BBC be twitchy about Neil's previous jobs. Marr was Editor of the Independent.
Also, interesting that it's Hilary Benn from Labour rather than Alan Johnson.
All this talk of bananas makes me wonder when the king over the water of British politics, the titan that is David Miliband, will 'intervene' in the referendum campaign.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
And if LEAVE win, how about you?
I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an exciting time for PB.
All this talk of bananas makes me wonder when the king over the water of British politics, the titan that is David Miliband, will 'intervene' in the referendum campaign.
You really do have to admire the shamelessness of Vote Leave. Making bonkers and objectively false claims about easily verifiable facts is one thing, but doing that whilst simultaneously having the nerve to make a big deal of accusing the other side of 'corroding public trust', 'scaremongering', and being engaged in 'Project Fear' in forecasts requires a Herculean degree of cynical hypocrisy. Very enjoyable for students of political theatre, of course.
Richard "Arch PB Scaremongerer" Nabavi
Not at all, I'm a great optimist - only the other day I put the probability of there being little short-term damage to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 5%.
While I assume you're joking there, didn't you simultaneously put the possibility of there being a short-term benefit to the economy in the event of Brexit as being as high as 0%?
Yes, I did. I can't see that there's much doubt about that - where would any benefit come from (in the short-term)?
The flip side of "uncertainty" is "dynamism". Uncertainty is being used as a buzzword to explain why the economy will be damaged but too much certainty creates sclerosis and is a bad thing - see Brown's attempts to defeat boom and bust and the decades long eurosclerosis*.
Far from uncertainty creating a negative cycle within the economy it is entirely possible that it could provide an adrenaline boost to the economy. The chance of that happening may be less than 50% in your eyes but they are objectively not zero percent.
* Some seem to think eurosclerosis is a modern idea dating to 2007/8. It was so established in that in 2002 when I was nearing the end of my Economics BSc we had a whole module devoted to it.
Bollocks. Most markets for most goods through most of history have not been regulated. Why should banana shape be regulated at all? Where does regulation 'for the sake of a level playing field' end? With no choice for the consumer?
Regulation is a political choice just like anything else. Much regulation should be pushed down to the lowest level of government appropriate, not all of it pushed up the the highest.
You are confusing two different points. Should banana shape be regulated at all? No, I would say not. But if it is regulated, it should be done at the single-market level, not at the individual country level, otherwise it acts as a non-tariff barrier.
I don't think any EU member countries grow bananas.
However, what are the actual EU regulations that apply to the import and sale of bananas?
Spain does (Canary islands).
I imagine a number of the French DomToms grow bananas.
The process for Turkey joining the EU is not imaginary, it has already begun. It is a matter of public record and our government's policy is to encourage it not veto it.
That's like saying putting in an application for a mortgage is the same as 'the bank are giving me a mortgage'.
At the moment, there's not a snowflake's chance in hell of the 'process' as you call it producing a successful result in anything like the foreseeable future, and anyway we have a veto.
Clearly, Vote Leave's claim is an outright lie, as is their claim about £350m a week (why not give the real figure, which would be politically just as effective?). Nothing unusual about that, of course, but it's the santimonious faux-outrage about the Remain claims which is so hilarious, all the more so because the Remain claims which they get so indignant about are forecasts, and therefore matters of opinion, not objectively false.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Personally I agree with both parts (and I think corbyn does as well) - I don't trust Osborne's predictions, and I do think that a post-Brexit Tory government will be much more right-wing (and from my perspective harmful) than anything seen to date. So it's not an encouragement of a belief which we think false. We might be wrong, of course, but that's another matter!
Fair enough, mate, but just out of interest, specifically, in what areas of policy do you think this new right wing Tory government will "run amok"?
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Oh yes,the Duke would have applauded Fake Dave stood next to foreign leaders making threats on Britain,especially the French and Yanks .
You're going to be a right grump if Remain win aren't you ?
And if LEAVE win, how about you?
I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an exciting time for PB.
Plus I start my holiday shortly thereafter.
What's not to like?
Hopefully not holidaying in France???
Florida then Canada but not Quebec.
Disneyworld ?
Florida is proper "sticky" hot !
Yup. Last visit to America before President Trump bans me.
Comments
Few NATS ever met unionists in real life.....
I'm not so sure. Wellington lead the tories in opposition to the 1832 Reform Act, we can only wonder what he would have thought of Nicky Morgan.
DYOR.
Betfair interestingly at 3.75, which is 21-8 after commission.
https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/738356154783432704
“There are just three weeks to go until the referendum vote on 23 June, but too much of the debate so far has been dominated by myth-making and prophecies of doom... In the final stage of this referendum, as we get closer to what is expected by many to be a very tight vote, it does not help the debate over such a serious issue if the hype and histrionic claims continue or worse intensify."
“Just over a week ago, George Osborne claimed that the British economy would enter a year-long recession if we voted to leave. This is the same George Osborne who predicted his austerity policies would close the deficit by 2015. That’s now scheduled for 2021."
“It’s the same George Osborne who said the British economy would be ‘carried aloft by the march of the makers’, yet the manufacturing sector has stagnated ever since - and manufacturing employment declined.”
You vill be at ze back of ze queue, Tommy.
A German Chancellor lecturing Britain. What could possibly go wrong?
Mr. Eagles, Agincourt*. I realise you're for Remain but using the French term for an English victory is just perverse.
Remember too, Mr. Enjineeya, the press exists to sell papers so they are more likely to reflect rather than lead opinion. If the UK press appears to you to be anti-EU that is because that is what their readers want to see. The old, probably apocryphal, headline, "Fog in the channel - Continent cut off", resonates because it captures a mood of the people of these islands.
We do not belong in the EU, our whole history and tradition (legal, trading, whatever you like) goes against it. We will never be happy partners in this political construct and so it's probably best for all if we get out now. We can still be friends, we can cooperate when our interests collide (with have with Portugal since 1373), but we will never be comfortable "pooling sovereignty" to the level demanded by the EU.
Honestly.
These people have been on a wind up ever since.
Shame for Remain that Dodgy Dave is shit out of trust.
Our own Parliament uses Norman French, usually when laws are passed.
http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/norman-french/
........
........
I'm going to have to create more enormo-haddock just so there's a sufficient number to slap you about the head and neck.
Obama tried it a few weeks ago and that backfired, and now Frau Merkel has had a go. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs their head read. If, and this is a big if, Cameron had advance warning and didn't move to shut her up then I can only put that down to mounting panic in the corridors of power. But we shall see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36433114
The German parliament has approved a resolution declaring that the mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War One was a "genocide".
Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their people died in the atrocities of 1915. Turkey says the toll was much lower and rejects the term "genocide".
The timing is awkward, as the EU needs Turkey to help stem the migrant influx.
Turkish president Recip Tayyip Erdogan said the resolution risked harming ties between the countries.
Poor de Gaulle never got over the fact the UK, America, and Canada liberated France.
Mr. Nabavi, if Cameron hadn't wrecked his own credibility then Vote Leave wouldn't be trying to take advantage of the distrust with which he is now viewed.
Mind you, the way the craven EU are acting, Turkey will get everything it wants without actually joining. Remember that the EU gave Ford millions to take business away from the UK and set up a factory in Turkey.
I'm not. I don't think it will happen..
But, I've been talking to my rugby friends (many from Cardiff and the Vale etc - nice parts of Wales) and to a man we are taken aback by the (almost zero) support for Remain. Almost everyone seems to be for Brexit.
I must admit, I'm surprised - despite not liking the EU much at all myself.
However, what are the actual EU regulations that apply to the import and sale of bananas?
Les Aigles Hurlants
I note that you did not offer a critique of any of the idea I put forward.
No doubt Osborne would like to lay it at the door of looming Brexit
http://flavoursfromfrance.typepad.com/flavours-from-france/2011/04/french-bananas-from-guadeloupe-and-martinique.html
The host reveals that a politician is behind the door he is pointing to, and also there is a steaming pile of horse muck behind a random door.
Do you switch ?
Amazed they didn't reschedule - or can the thing altogether.
http://europeforvisitors.com/germany/bodensee/mainau.htm
Plus I start my holiday shortly thereafter.
What's not to like?
http://www.bananalink.org.uk/imports-uk
Oh wait.
Slight Problem with that one.
They have this type of banana in India.
https://veryyummy.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/banana.jpg
Plus really big ones (called "plantains" over there).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Bananavarieties.jpg
Somebody will be dropping into the underfloor shark tank.
Andrew Neil may not be the BBC’s official lead political interviewer (presumably BBC management are a bit twitchy about his role with the Spectator, and his past as an opinionated Murdoch editor) but there is no one at the corporation who turns up to an interview better briefed, or who is less likely to miss the weak spot in a politician’s argument. Which explains why it is so rare that he gets the chance to interview someone like David Cameron.
But he is going to do four big interviews as part of the BBC’s EU referendum coverage. One, with George Osborne, has already been announced. Now we have the final list.
Monday 6 June: Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary (Remain)
Wednesday 8 June: George Osborne, the chancellor (Remain)
Friday 10 June: Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader (Leave)
Friday 17 June: Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary (Leave)
Why would the BBC be twitchy about Neil's previous jobs. Marr was Editor of the Independent.
Also, interesting that it's Hilary Benn from Labour rather than Alan Johnson.
http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/leisure/parks-openspaces/Park-6614.aspx
Florida is proper "sticky" hot !
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-miliband-joins-david-cameron-7930091
But International Rescue were calling...something about fraud...so he had to dash...
Far from uncertainty creating a negative cycle within the economy it is entirely possible that it could provide an adrenaline boost to the economy. The chance of that happening may be less than 50% in your eyes but they are objectively not zero percent.
* Some seem to think eurosclerosis is a modern idea dating to 2007/8. It was so established in that in 2002 when I was nearing the end of my Economics BSc we had a whole module devoted to it.
At the moment, there's not a snowflake's chance in hell of the 'process' as you call it producing a successful result in anything like the foreseeable future, and anyway we have a veto.
Clearly, Vote Leave's claim is an outright lie, as is their claim about £350m a week (why not give the real figure, which would be politically just as effective?). Nothing unusual about that, of course, but it's the santimonious faux-outrage about the Remain claims which is so hilarious, all the more so because the Remain claims which they get so indignant about are forecasts, and therefore matters of opinion, not objectively false.
ROFL
Or Lethal Weapon II
'Excuse the polythene on the floor, We're having some painting done'