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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Leave’s major advantage in the last three weeks of the camp

SystemSystem Posts: 11,721
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Leave’s major advantage in the last three weeks of the campaign. The Tory press is on their side

One of the most fascinating aspects of this referendum campaign is a Tory PM and most of the Tory Press being on opposite sides. As Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband can attest the press can very brutal. Whilst I don’t subscribe to the belief that it was solely The Sun wot won it at the 1992 general election, as a politician it is much more advantageous to have media on your side.

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Comments

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    First, question for the brains trust, is there a timetable for the referendum results? Just wondering when to open the champagne.
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    First, damn second for the first time
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688
    edited June 2016
    dr_spyn said:

    First, question for the brains trust, is there a timetable for the referendum results? Just wondering when to open the champagne.

    Click on the excel file link

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/eu-referendum-count
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    The Mirror has had a lot of articles not supportive of REMAIN.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    That ICM n=2k online 27-30 May

    EU Immigration

    58% unhappy if current levels continue
    55% believe bad for NHS
    67% has put pressure on housing #Brexit

    http://news.sky.com/story/1705440/pm-faces-sky-news-test-as-remain-loses-ground
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,930
    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.
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    Times seems more supportive of REMAIN. Telegraph probabIy only 60/40 in split of LEAVE/REMAIN articles. Mail on Sunday is rabidly for REMAIN.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    The Tory press has always been anti-immigrant. It hasn't changed. Until recently, Dave and George were happy to play along. They are reaping what they sowed.
  • Options
    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
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    I see the Mail is reporting that the murdered two year old in Fife was part of the named persons trial run
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,930

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Obviously the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I really am very surprised that Remain thought they could execute Project Fear without the total support of the print media.

    I'm down grading my forecast to 57/43 Remain/Leave.
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    Tbe next three weeks are going to be very entertaining if Remainians keep this up.(this post is delayed as I am currently under Hampstead)
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,806
    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,930
    edited June 2016
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
    Apart from the silly hyperbole our reputation for tolerance will take an almighty knock.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    The Mirror has had a lot of articles not supportive of REMAIN.

    It certainly does. I wouldn't say it was pro-Remain at all. More 50-50. The Times is more 70/30 for Remain IMO.
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    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
    Apart from the silly hyperbole our reputation for tolerance will take an almighty knock.
    What changes do you expect to see?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Hyperbole much?

    Worth noting that Austria is a part of the EU while Australia is not, I know which I think is more tolerant and has a better reputation nowadays,
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688
    edited June 2016

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    The reality. The Mail's parent issued a profits warning last week because of a decline of ad revenue at the Mail
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291

    dr_spyn said:

    First, question for the brains trust, is there a timetable for the referendum results? Just wondering when to open the champagne.

    Click on the excel file link

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/eu-referendum-count
    Many thanks for that. Could be an interesting morning, marketing opportunity join PB's Referendum Champagne Breakfast Party.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016

    The Tory press has always been anti-immigrant. It hasn't changed. Until recently, Dave and George were happy to play along. They are reaping what they sowed.

    The perpetual talk of the NHS being underfunded and in crisis, collapsing incomes, under-employment and housing 'crisis' has not originated from the Tories.

    These are the things that have been driving old Labour, working class voters into the arms of other parties, and which will see (I guess) 40%-50% of Labour voters plump for leave outside the usual metro/uni areas.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    Alistair said:

    Obviously the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I really am very surprised that Remain thought they could execute Project Fear without the total support of the print media.

    I'm down grading my forecast to 57/43 Remain/Leave.

    The biggest surprise for me is just how badly prepared the Remain side has been for the immigration angle. They surely must have realised that this was going to be Leave's main line of attack and one that would strongly resonate. I guess if you spend the best part of a decade talking about floods of EU immigrants taking jobs, hording benefits and driving down wages you can't then do a complete reverse and expect to be viewed with anything other than total contempt.

    As Farage observed yesterday, Tory Leavers have now embraced UKIP immigration policy. It's a funny old world.

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    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
    You might have to move abroad......
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    If there's a juicy story or murder - the Mail always has the full gory details. I haven't bought a paper copy of The Times in years, but they always had a good murder or scandal on Page 3 - the frontpage was always very sensible :smiley:

    I get really annoyed with the Mail mobile site - if I share a story, it automatically moves me to the next article. I want to read the comments.

    Incidentally, David Aaronovitch saying today he's seriously thinking of voting Tory, as he can't bear Corbyn. He's been moving crabwise to the right for decades - but his confession still surprised me.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,118

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    The reality. The Mail's parent issued a profits warning last week because of a decline of ad revenue at the Mail
    In that context a major golf tournament has just been moved from one of Trump’s courses because major advertisers and sponsors didn’t want to be associated with Trump.
    (Source. BBC)
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    chestnut said:

    The Tory press has always been anti-immigrant. It hasn't changed. Until recently, Dave and George were happy to play along. They are reaping what they sowed.

    The perpetual talk of the NHS being underfunded and in crisis, collapsing incomes, under-employment and housing 'crisis' has not originated from the Tories.

    These are the things that have been driving old Labour, working class voters into the arms of other parties, and which will see (I guess) 40%-50% of Labour voters plump for leave outside the usual metro/uni areas.

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

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    ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 165
    The Tory press is reflecting the anger of many conservatives. I have been a Conservative activist since the 1980s and have never felt so detached from my party. Things are not going to go back to being happy families by the end of this month. Cameron has behaved digracefully in this campaign and sickened many of us who put him there. There will have to be a reckoning within the party. Good news for Mr Corbyn and good luck to him. Those of us who have been on the receiving end of Bullingdon bullies must stick together.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,806

    Times seems more supportive of REMAIN. Telegraph probabIy only 60/40 in split of LEAVE/REMAIN articles. Mail on Sunday is rabidly for REMAIN.

    I don't understand what they put in the soup of the MoS.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,806

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    The reality. The Mail's parent issued a profits warning last week because of a decline of ad revenue at the Mail
    Yes, but that's print. Online the Mail is going from strength to strength, not just in the UK but worldwide.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    chestnut said:

    The Tory press has always been anti-immigrant. It hasn't changed. Until recently, Dave and George were happy to play along. They are reaping what they sowed.

    The perpetual talk of the NHS being underfunded and in crisis, collapsing incomes, under-employment and housing 'crisis' has not originated from the Tories.

    These are the things that have been driving old Labour, working class voters into the arms of other parties, and which will see (I guess) 40%-50% of Labour voters plump for leave outside the usual metro/uni areas.

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    The phrase was "Talk of the NHS etc" - not "The NHS..."

    "Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called ‘Haddocks' Eyes.’”

    “Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

    “No, you don't understand,” the Knight said, looking a little vexed. “That's what the name is called. The name really is ‘The Aged Aged Man.’”

    “Then I ought to have said ‘That's what the song is called’?” Alice corrected herself.

    “No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called ‘Ways And Means’: but that's only what it's called, you know!”

    “Well, what is the song, then?” said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

    “I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is ‘A-sitting On A Gate’: and the tune's my own invention.”"
    ---

    Someone should try learning a little grammar and syntax analysis.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    We are not going to get to 2020 without a general election, are we?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,251
    edited June 2016
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
    I saw your second comment the other day on my article. Thank you. Appreciated.

    Next week I'm off to see Don Giovanni at the Ulverston Music Festival and last night my beloved gave me the DVD of Losey's film of the opera, filmed in the Palladian villas in the Veneto. A real treat!
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    We are not going to get to 2020 without a general election, are we?

    That's up to the House of Lords!
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Naz Shah seems to have had some possible problems with spreadsheet records of expenses.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3620993/Labour-s-Naz-Shah-faces-spending-quiz-Documents-hotels-bills-peer-joined-campaign-trail-declared-national-expenditure.html

    Has anyone told Channel 4 and Michael Crick?
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
    I saw your second comment the other day on my article. Thank you. Appreciated.

    Next week I'm off to see Don Giovanni at the Ulverston Music Festival and last night my beloved gave me the DVD of Losey's film of the opera, filmed in the Palladian villas in the Veneto. A real treat!
    Great hats in that film.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    dr_spyn said:

    Naz Shah seems to have had some possible problems with spreadsheet records of expenses.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3620993/Labour-s-Naz-Shah-faces-spending-quiz-Documents-hotels-bills-peer-joined-campaign-trail-declared-national-expenditure.html

    Has anyone told Channel 4 and Michael Crick?

    Guido thinks Cleggers has 17k problems too
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
    Apart from the silly hyperbole our reputation for tolerance will take an almighty knock.
    There's a lot of difference between being tolerant and being a doormat.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    A fair stab at the issue TSE: 5/10. You missed some tricks but it's not too bad an attempt. The rather peremptory 'Tory press' tag is a little beneath you and 'political waterboarding' is a metaphor probably best reserved for House of Cards fiction. The horror of waterboarding bears no relation to anything in politics.

    That aside, you have equated declining circulation of dead tree press with influence. They are not synonymous. We are influenced by the newspapers in many ways: they are viewed online and on newsstands. They still find their way into waiting rooms. They also help direct a meme to which responses are often required: in other words, they help hold politicians and others to account. Over matters such as tax havens, expenses and even piggies they have proved still to have considerable influence.

    What cannot easily been gainsaid is that this is an onslaught unlike anything seen in the last fifty years. Not even the Welsh Windbag endured this level of sustained attack. I cannot see how Remain can survive this and now expect the final referendum result to be:

    Leave 55-59%
    Remain 40-45%

    And before you lampoon this I called the General Election spot on.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,497

    chestnut said:

    The Tory press has always been anti-immigrant. It hasn't changed. Until recently, Dave and George were happy to play along. They are reaping what they sowed.

    The perpetual talk of the NHS being underfunded and in crisis, collapsing incomes, under-employment and housing 'crisis' has not originated from the Tories.

    These are the things that have been driving old Labour, working class voters into the arms of other parties, and which will see (I guess) 40%-50% of Labour voters plump for leave outside the usual metro/uni areas.

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    The NHS is receiving more funding in real terms right now than it has ever had in its history. That may not be enough, nothing ever is but it is what we can afford.
    Incomes are now rising quite strongly in real terms after a very prolonged period of stagnation and even falls after 2008. This is partly being driven by the living wage.

    Actual employment is at a record high and most of the recent increases have been in full time employment. Clearly there are issues with the abuse of "self employment" but Universal Credit will address these.

    Housing production has picked up substantially from a very low base. It is still too low, especially with a net 330,000 immigrants also needing housed.

    I remain of the view that this government has done pretty well in very difficult circumstances. A comparator with our EU friends relative performance confirms that. It is, at the risk of understatement, unfortunate that a competent government is tearing itself apart over the EU. I fear what comes next will not be as good in or out.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    weejonnie said:

    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
    Apart from the silly hyperbole our reputation for tolerance will take an almighty knock.
    There's a lot of difference between being tolerant and being a doormat.
    Firm, but fair...
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    The reality. The Mail's parent issued a profits warning last week because of a decline of ad revenue at the Mail
    Yes, but that's print. Online the Mail is going from strength to strength, not just in the UK but worldwide.

    Yep it's globally huge.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Wanderer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
    I saw your second comment the other day on my article. Thank you. Appreciated.

    Next week I'm off to see Don Giovanni at the Ulverston Music Festival and last night my beloved gave me the DVD of Losey's film of the opera, filmed in the Palladian villas in the Veneto. A real treat!
    Great hats in that film.
    Singing wasn't bad either.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,027
    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :wink:

    Old Holborn
    1989 - Eastern Europe

    "If we leave the Soviet Union, we risk not trading with Moscow. Better to stay under undemocratic rule"

    #Brexit
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Mail on Sunday is rabidly for REMAIN.

    It is not pro Remain let alone rabidly so.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    The last time there was a referendum on our membership of the EC/EU the Tory leader campaigned for the UK to remain, quite vocally.

    Dave is following in the footsteps of Thatcher.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    edited June 2016
    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

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    I firmly believe that whatever the outcome, the Tory party will be in a very bad place once the dust has settled in late June. There's just no way they can all shake hands, congratulate the winner and get back to normal. Things have been said and done that just can't be ignored or forgiven.
    Labour under Corbyn might just be playing a very clever game by keeping quiet on the EU.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    AFP
    #BREAKING: Turkey says German vote on Armenian 'genocide' a 'test of friendship'
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Estobar said:

    The daily print media will continue their inexorable decline until such time as printed news becomes a solely weekly, or subscription only, affair, a bit like magazines in WH Smith. They'll probably become more specialised too.

    However, I think both the Mail and The Times have a healthy digital online model, and the Sun survive in a form as a manual/working man's paper for quite some time, but I think the rest will just continue to shrink.

    The mail is more dominant than ever. Currently switching between here and the free mailonline app
    The reality. The Mail's parent issued a profits warning last week because of a decline of ad revenue at the Mail
    Yes, but that's print. Online the Mail is going from strength to strength, not just in the UK but worldwide.

    Yep it's globally huge.
    The Mail online is an inspired product, using best web practice to appeal to conservative outrage and titilation and prurience at the same time.

    That said its increasing global digital content dilutes its political voice back home. A stream of Kim Kardasian articles packs less political punch.

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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    The UK will become the Third Reich reborn.
    Apart from the silly hyperbole our reputation for tolerance will take an almighty knock.
    When you posted something similar about our taking (or not) refugees I thought you were wrong but this time I think you may be right. It's not the fact of our leaving the EU (if that happens) but the tone of the Leave campaign.

    However I don't know if anyone outside the UK is paying much attention.

    Actually I think the body whose reputation may be most affected is the Conservative Party.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    :wink:

    Old Holborn
    1989 - Eastern Europe

    "If we leave the Soviet Union, we risk not trading with Moscow. Better to stay under undemocratic rule"

    #Brexit

    Is Old Holborn still going? I remember the early Swear Bloggers with a sort of guilty affection. Devils Kitchen, Counting Cats and the like we're always savagely funny. The Devil never really recovered from his brush with Andrew Neil.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    His article in the Mirror was a hoot.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    In fiscal terms, the biggest percentage burden since 2010 has been borne by the richest 10% of taxpayers.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Estobar said:

    Mail on Sunday is rabidly for REMAIN.

    It is not pro Remain let alone rabidly so.
    The DM and MoS have two different editors - hence the very different attitudes to the EU vote.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,214
    The Tory press is actually more divided, the Times for instance will back Remain and while the Telegraph backs Leave it has been pretty balanced. Overall the Mirror, the Star, the FT, The Guardian, and The Independent online will back Remain while the Sun, the Express, the Mail and the Telegraph will back Leave. So actually slightly more papers back Remain than back Leave
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    PlatoSaid said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    His article in the Mirror was a hoot.
    Was that where he argued that the EU defends workers' rights from his own government?
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    dr_spyn said:

    Wanderer said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Much much worse.
    I saw your second comment the other day on my article. Thank you. Appreciated.

    Next week I'm off to see Don Giovanni at the Ulverston Music Festival and last night my beloved gave me the DVD of Losey's film of the opera, filmed in the Palladian villas in the Veneto. A real treat!
    Great hats in that film.
    Singing wasn't bad either.
    Indeed :)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688
    How do PBers think PB's Alanbrooke react when I do a thread with the following comparisons

    Dave = Sir Winston Churchill

    Tory Leavers = The modern day Lord Halifaxes

    George Osborne = Field Marshall Sir Alan Brooke
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    Alistair said:

    Obviously the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I really am very surprised that Remain thought they could execute Project Fear without the total support of the print media.

    I'm down grading my forecast to 57/43 Remain/Leave.

    The biggest surprise for me is just how badly prepared the Remain side has been for the immigration angle. They surely must have realised that this was going to be Leave's main line of attack and one that would strongly resonate. I guess if you spend the best part of a decade talking about floods of EU immigrants taking jobs, hording benefits and driving down wages you can't then do a complete reverse and expect to be viewed with anything other than total contempt.

    As Farage observed yesterday, Tory Leavers have now embraced UKIP immigration policy. It's a funny old world.

    I can only assume that Remain thought Leave would go for EEA/EFTA. Seems a pretty fatal underestimation. Amazing how complacency is always what does for establishment views....
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,251

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    If you choose to cut public services or even maintain them at the same level it does not make a whole lot of sense to increase demand for those same services at the same time. Nor does it make sense not to recover the costs of providing those services from those who are not entitled to receive them for free, something which the NHS has been poor at doing.

    The public are entitled to ask the government to attempt some sort of coherence in its policies. Whatever level of immigration you choose to have then it is incumbent on the government to plan properly for the necessary infrastructure. If that is not done then it's not surprising that the public will look to reduce the demand.

    This is a mess caused, in part, because of a refusal by all governments to be honest about immigration and its consequences, both good and bad.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Sean_F said:

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    In fiscal terms, the biggest percentage burden since 2010 has been borne by the richest 10% of taxpayers.
    Pure sophistry, the richest 10% have experienced no hardship whatsoever.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    The Tory press is reflecting the anger of many conservatives. I have been a Conservative activist since the 1980s and have never felt so detached from my party. Things are not going to go back to being happy families by the end of this month. Cameron has behaved digracefully in this campaign and sickened many of us who put him there. There will have to be a reckoning within the party. Good news for Mr Corbyn and good luck to him. Those of us who have been on the receiving end of Bullingdon bullies must stick together.

    Couldn't agree more.

    If Osborne gets anywhere near the leadership I will be resigning my membership.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,027
    Mr. Eagles, you may as well compare Marcellus with Cato. The two situations are not comparable, unless you think the EU of today is the same as the EC of four decades ago.

    Miss Plato, I wonder if Bizarro-Cameron ought to be Noremac. Could be wrong, not my area, but I think Bizarro things get their names reversed.

    Miss Plato 2, when's the vote take place?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,497

    I firmly believe that whatever the outcome, the Tory party will be in a very bad place once the dust has settled in late June. There's just no way they can all shake hands, congratulate the winner and get back to normal. Things have been said and done that just can't be ignored or forgiven.
    Labour under Corbyn might just be playing a very clever game by keeping quiet on the EU.

    I think as a generality the less Corbyn says or does the better he is thought of. The old saying of a fool being better to remain silent is apposite.

    But yes, we are heading for an unstable minority government which will be unable to implement its legislative program and will struggle to even pass a budget. I agree with Southam that an election before 2020 looks inevitable. The only question is how long the remnants of this government will seek to hang on.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958
    Estobar said:

    A fair stab at the issue TSE: 5/10. You missed some tricks but it's not too bad an attempt. The rather peremptory 'Tory press' tag is a little beneath you and 'political waterboarding' is a metaphor probably best reserved for House of Cards fiction. The horror of waterboarding bears no relation to anything in politics.

    That aside, you have equated declining circulation of dead tree press with influence. They are not synonymous. We are influenced by the newspapers in many ways: they are viewed online and on newsstands. They still find their way into waiting rooms. They also help direct a meme to which responses are often required: in other words, they help hold politicians and others to account. Over matters such as tax havens, expenses and even piggies they have proved still to have considerable influence.

    What cannot easily been gainsaid is that this is an onslaught unlike anything seen in the last fifty years. Not even the Welsh Windbag endured this level of sustained attack. I cannot see how Remain can survive this and now expect the final referendum result to be:

    Leave 55-59%
    Remain 40-45%

    And before you lampoon this I called the General Election spot on.

    Agreed. Some good odds on under 40 and 40-45 on BF. I'm on. But DYOR!
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Far worse. LEAVE will make racism respectable, and from there history shows it's only a short step to making it compulsory.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    PlatoSaid said:

    Estobar said:

    Mail on Sunday is rabidly for REMAIN.

    It is not pro Remain let alone rabidly so.
    The DM and MoS have two different editors - hence the very different attitudes to the EU vote.
    I know. I write for both.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688

    Mr. Eagles, you may as well compare Marcellus with Cato. The two situations are not comparable, unless you think the EU of today is the same as the EC of four decades ago.

    Miss Plato, I wonder if Bizarro-Cameron ought to be Noremac. Could be wrong, not my area, but I think Bizarro things get their names reversed.

    Miss Plato 2, when's the vote take place?

    Tory Leaders campaign in Eurosceptic poetry but govern in Pro European prose.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    :wink:

    Old Holborn
    1989 - Eastern Europe

    "If we leave the Soviet Union, we risk not trading with Moscow. Better to stay under undemocratic rule"

    #Brexit

    Is Old Holborn still going? I remember the early Swear Bloggers with a sort of guilty affection. Devils Kitchen, Counting Cats and the like we're always savagely funny. The Devil never really recovered from his brush with Andrew Neil.
    We're all still around. Anna Raccoon, OH [who keeps being monstered by belligerent Scousers], Obonoxio, Gimpy, Ambush Predator, Charlotte Gore... Must be ten years+ since we got involved.

    I loved Devil, and that Neil encounter was just awful. He pops up very occasionally - but for job reasons he just talks about software.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,806

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    The last time there was a referendum on our membership of the EC/EU the Tory leader campaigned for the UK to remain, quite vocally.

    Dave is following in the footsteps of Thatcher.
    Desperate stuff.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Quite the reverse, British prestige amongst Europeans will skyrocket should Brexit be delivered.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    Roger said:

    The least of our problems. The reputational damage to the UK in the event of a Brexit doesn't bare thinking about. Austria will look like a beacon of tolerance in comparison.

    Oh really. Worse than not joining the euro?
    Far worse. LEAVE will make racism respectable, and from there history shows it's only a short step to making it compulsory.

    You're obsessed with silly ideas for laws.
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    pinkrosepinkrose Posts: 189
    Cameron is a disgrace of a man. His true colours have shone during this eu campaign. I couldnt believe how he could slander Sadiq Khan one minute then share a platform the next. You cannot trust a word Cameron says.

    How is it that ever since becoming a Tory MP he has been happy to stand on a Tory manifesto that promises lower immigration and an Australian style points system and whilst Tory leader has promised "no ifs no buts" to bring immigration to under 100,000 per year, but suddenly anyone advocating exactly these policies will "crash the economy"?????

    WHAT A CHARLATAN!!
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    His article in the Mirror was a hoot.
    Was that where he argued that the EU defends workers' rights from his own government?
    That's the one :astonished:
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,688
    edited June 2016

    Good morning, everyone.

    Bizarro world? The world's the same as it ever was, it's the PM that's behaving Bizarro.

    The last time there was a referendum on our membership of the EC/EU the Tory leader campaigned for the UK to remain, quite vocally.

    Dave is following in the footsteps of Thatcher.
    Desperate stuff.
    It's accurate though. Thatcher also signed the Single European Act. Dave nor Ted Heath signed us up to anything quite like that.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    The Tory press is reflecting the anger of many conservatives. I have been a Conservative activist since the 1980s and have never felt so detached from my party. Things are not going to go back to being happy families by the end of this month. Cameron has behaved digracefully in this campaign and sickened many of us who put him there. There will have to be a reckoning within the party. Good news for Mr Corbyn and good luck to him. Those of us who have been on the receiving end of Bullingdon bullies must stick together.

    Interesting comments.

    I've been chatting to a Labour constituency chair who reckons 1/3rd his members are strongly anti the EU and that there's deep frustration and anger.

    Much more anecdotal, someone I know well contacted me the other day to say they were genuinely on the fence until they saw how Cameron has conducted himself. They are now voting Leave.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jonathan said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.
    Wrong tense. Could.

    This referendum could be where we hear the crash of the dead tree press toppling over.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Parties losing public support leads to their collapse. cf Lib Dems

    The 'Tory press' is reflective of a good deal of public opinion for Tory and UKIP voters, and a good deal of Labour voters too.

    Politicians could ignore the press, but they'd also be ignoring a good deal of their voters.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,220
    DavidL said:

    We are heading for an unstable minority government which will be unable to implement its legislative program and will struggle to even pass a budget.

    What legislative program?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,448
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    In fiscal terms, the biggest percentage burden since 2010 has been borne by the richest 10% of taxpayers.
    Pure sophistry, the richest 10% have experienced no hardship whatsoever.
    Which is a distraction. Short of rerunning the October Revolution, the richest 10% will never experience 'hardship' from government policies.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    In fiscal terms, the biggest percentage burden since 2010 has been borne by the richest 10% of taxpayers.
    Pure sophistry, the richest 10% have experienced no hardship whatsoever.
    My comment is factually correct. A better argument is that they are in a better position to bear that burden than most.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    DavidL said:

    I firmly believe that whatever the outcome, the Tory party will be in a very bad place once the dust has settled in late June. There's just no way they can all shake hands, congratulate the winner and get back to normal. Things have been said and done that just can't be ignored or forgiven.
    Labour under Corbyn might just be playing a very clever game by keeping quiet on the EU.

    I think as a generality the less Corbyn says or does the better he is thought of. The old saying of a fool being better to remain silent is apposite.

    But yes, we are heading for an unstable minority government which will be unable to implement its legislative program and will struggle to even pass a budget. I agree with Southam that an election before 2020 looks inevitable. The only question is how long the remnants of this government will seek to hang on.

    All this is very bad news for Brexit negotiations too. The Commission and the member states will see a divided government that cannot get legislation through Parliament and wonder how on earth any kind of meaningful deal can be done. If we do vote to leave then a GE surely becomes inevitable.

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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Jonathan said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.

    This referendum could be where we hear the crash of the dead tree press toppling over.
    Fancy a wager about that?!
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Mortimer said:

    The Tory press is reflecting the anger of many conservatives. I have been a Conservative activist since the 1980s and have never felt so detached from my party. Things are not going to go back to being happy families by the end of this month. Cameron has behaved digracefully in this campaign and sickened many of us who put him there. There will have to be a reckoning within the party. Good news for Mr Corbyn and good luck to him. Those of us who have been on the receiving end of Bullingdon bullies must stick together.

    Couldn't agree more.

    If Osborne gets anywhere near the leadership I will be resigning my membership.

    When you discover you've actually got New Labour Plus, not Tories - it's perfectly understandable that so many are unhappy/feel duped.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,497
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    We are heading for an unstable minority government which will be unable to implement its legislative program and will struggle to even pass a budget.

    What legislative program?
    I think that the Queens speech was in part a recognition of that reality.
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,548

    Alistair said:

    Obviously the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I really am very surprised that Remain thought they could execute Project Fear without the total support of the print media.

    I'm down grading my forecast to 57/43 Remain/Leave.

    The biggest surprise for me is just how badly prepared the Remain side has been for the immigration angle. They surely must have realised that this was going to be Leave's main line of attack and one that would strongly resonate. I guess if you spend the best part of a decade talking about floods of EU immigrants taking jobs, hording benefits and driving down wages you can't then do a complete reverse and expect to be viewed with anything other than total contempt.

    As Farage observed yesterday, Tory Leavers have now embraced UKIP immigration policy. It's a funny old world.

    Completely agree. This is also an area that divides remainers, from people like me at one end who see freedom of movement as an asset of membership and vital to family life, and Theresa May at the other end who see it as a tolerable necessity for the overall benefits of membership. Remain seem unable to cope with that spectrum, and given how the Tories have spent years trying talk about immigration, switching every question to the economy sounds lame.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.


    Actually both stables (Mail and MoS) have printed some extremely good, thoughtful, articles on both sides of the fence. So you're really just spewing out your own innate prejudices.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Estobar said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.

    This referendum could be where we hear the crash of the dead tree press toppling over.
    Fancy a wager about that?!
    Not with you, no. I have no idea who you are.

    In any case, I doubt we could agree on framing terms.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Eagles, you may as well compare Marcellus with Cato. The two situations are not comparable, unless you think the EU of today is the same as the EC of four decades ago.

    Miss Plato, I wonder if Bizarro-Cameron ought to be Noremac. Could be wrong, not my area, but I think Bizarro things get their names reversed.

    Miss Plato 2, when's the vote take place?

    Don't know re the vote, Bizarro-Cameron needs a Viz name.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Jonathan said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.
    Wrong tense. Could.

    This referendum could be where we hear the crash of the dead tree press toppling over.
    I'm not so sure. If, say, Remain scrape home, but centre-right voters back Leave by 70/30, their influence on that side of the political spectrum will remain considerable.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Estobar said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.


    Actually both stables (Mail and MoS) have printed some extremely good, thoughtful, articles on both sides of the fence. So you're really just spewing out your own innate prejudices.
    The front page headline piece last Friday was a direct lie, as even the article itself admitted in its final sentence.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Estobar said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is a corollary to this. If Leave lose, it will be a shattering defeat for the Conservative press, one from which their authority will not recover. You can't hammer away with the sheer mendacity that the Mail and the Express have shown in this campaign, lose and then retain a hold over politicians. The politicians will correctly conclude that the press can be bypassed.

    Is that true? The Mail (etc) can easily destroy an individual politician's reputation. As such, they will always get attention and respect.

    This referendum could be where we hear the crash of the dead tree press toppling over.
    Fancy a wager about that?!
    Not with you, no. I have no idea who you are.

    In any case, I doubt we could agree on framing terms.
    Well a PM would sort out the who I am bit so that sounds like evasion to me. And I'm sure I could frame something suitable. For instance, who wins the vote?! :D
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,986
    Sean_F said:

    chestnut said:

    It's good to see Tory Leavers now accept that the NHS is underfunded, incomes have collapsed, employment figures are a sham and there is a housing crisis. It's a shame, though, that they have done so little about tackling these issues and in many cases have exacerbated them.

    Vapid something or other is the term, I believe.

    Labour have churned out a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about these things, but the public are wise to the left's financial incontinence, and have seen that ever more money never seems to sort these things out so they have looked elsewhere for an answer.

    They have concluded that it's the system. Excessive demand and poor allocation of resources.

    Yes, you would say that, wouldn't you? :-)

    The government - supported by Leavers - has made choices. The main one is to seek to eliminate the deficit by 2020. That has meant delivering significant cuts to public services and squeezing tax revenues. The least advantaged have borne the bulk of the cost on both fronts. I can see why blaming immigrants is more attractive for parts of the right, though.

    In fiscal terms, the biggest percentage burden since 2010 has been borne by the richest 10% of taxpayers.

    The poorest have been hardest hit. The richest have been least affected. And that pattern is set to continue:
    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/737525064199856128/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    DavidL said:

    I firmly believe that whatever the outcome, the Tory party will be in a very bad place once the dust has settled in late June. There's just no way they can all shake hands, congratulate the winner and get back to normal. Things have been said and done that just can't be ignored or forgiven.
    Labour under Corbyn might just be playing a very clever game by keeping quiet on the EU.

    I think as a generality the less Corbyn says or does the better he is thought of. The old saying of a fool being better to remain silent is apposite.

    But yes, we are heading for an unstable minority government which will be unable to implement its legislative program and will struggle to even pass a budget. I agree with Southam that an election before 2020 looks inevitable. The only question is how long the remnants of this government will seek to hang on.

    All this is very bad news for Brexit negotiations too. The Commission and the member states will see a divided government that cannot get legislation through Parliament and wonder how on earth any kind of meaningful deal can be done. If we do vote to leave then a GE surely becomes inevitable.

    Of course there is no certainty of an election delivering a working majority for any party. Or even enough Conservative seats for them to continue in office.
This discussion has been closed.