Tim Marshall German parliament approves resolution declaring mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks "genocide". Turkey recalls Ambassador. Awkward.
Conflict News MORE: Deputy PM Kurtulmuş: Turkey will provide a "thorough response in variety of forums to Germany’s vote" - @HasanSari7
I agree with you- I think though I am speaking though much further ahead when the world will be a much better place- in the future there will not be any crime because of technology- people will not be able to get away with it. The health system in the future will be beyond recognition. There will be little concept of manual labour. Much of our legal framework and corporate structure will be standardised through technology across borders.
In this moment I completely agree with preserving European institutions and developing them. After all, migrants want to come here. It is the things we have that they want. They are escaping their own poor governance.
tyson - sorry but I don't really agree. If there was a sense of universal culture around the world then it would be reasonable to think as you do. But there isn't. Do you really believe that most of the people in the middle east for instance want the same things that you or I do? Reasonably ordered societies are usually built on strong institutions that take generations to develop. Simply discarding these things for some internationally agreed norm is impossible - at least for now.
You talk about change but for what purpose? The left didn't used to believe in CHANGE they believed in PROGRESS. Why should people blindly accept change if they think it is to something worse. Why should they embrace change if it makes them personally worse off? It makes no sense.
On an international level clearly some countries will think they have better legal systems than others. Some will think their corporate culture is less corrupt. Why should they wilfully allow their own standards to be compromised for a generalised norm? You seem to want to believe in a non-judgemental worldview in which there is no better or worse, just diversity. I find that attitude vacuous. I also don't think it fits with what a lot of pro-Europeans - at least those on the continent - believe. What many of them are truly passionate about is not opening up the whole world and endless diversity but in PRESERVING European culture and identity in the post-imperial world of US hegemony and rising 'third world powers'.
How we could do with a liberal like Christopher Hitchens.
Tyson's Brave New World of effortless rent collection, painless deracination, pointless longevity and endless secure boredom is surely autobiographical.
The idea that the EU organisation as it is currently configured is somehow necessary for trade is simply a fantasy.
It's disingenuous to keep suggesting that the EEA is just about trade. EEA passport lines in British airports tell a different story.
It is very disingenuous to claim that because of the very sensible freedom of movement agreements, the EEA is about anything other than trade.
It is simply a convenient way for the Europhiles to ignore the huge array of other competences that the EU now has which do not apply to the EFTA members. Given that 91% of EU legislation does not apply to the EFTA countries it is clear that the EU is so much more than just trade and that the EFTA countries are not subject to this.
The thing is that if Cameron wants to win his referendum, it's not in his interest that Corbyn pretends to think he and Osborne are temporarily sound fellows saying sensible things. He needs Corbyn to fire up left-wing voters, and the way to do that is to rubbish the wilder stuff from Osborne but point out the real dangers of leaving from a Labour perspective. The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised.
That all depends on how the speech is covered on the TV, though. Perhaps booing the BBC reporter was not helpful on that front.
The thing is that if Cameron wants to win his referendum, it's not in his interest that Corbyn pretends to think he and Osborne are temporarily sound fellows saying sensible things. He needs Corbyn to fire up left-wing voters, and the way to do that is to rubbish the wilder stuff from Osborne but point out the real dangers of leaving from a Labour perspective. The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised.
Indeed, Cameron should just focus on getting as close to 50% of Tory voters out for Remain as he can now and leave Corbyn to fire up the Labour base in a way only he can!
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
Tim Marshall German parliament approves resolution declaring mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks "genocide". Turkey recalls Ambassador. Awkward.
Conflict News MORE: Deputy PM Kurtulmuş: Turkey will provide a "thorough response in variety of forums to Germany’s vote" - @HasanSari7
Makes allowing the prosecution of that TV presenter a bit of a pointless gesture doesn't it?
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
So the German leader is adopting a threatening approach.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
I admire her refreshing honesty. It will be interesting to see how she likes being out of the British room with a £30bn trade surplus in play.
The thing is that if Cameron wants to win his referendum, it's not in his interest that Corbyn pretends to think he and Osborne are temporarily sound fellows saying sensible things. He needs Corbyn to fire up left-wing voters, and the way to do that is to rubbish the wilder stuff from Osborne but point out the real dangers of leaving from a Labour perspective. The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised.
Corbyn hates the EU as you well know. He's playing his hand masterfully and late to achieve his goals.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
Harry Cole Corbyn plunges Remain into chaos by branding Treasury forecasts "hysterical hype" + vowing to torpedo EU trade deal: https://t.co/3FmLFWInFB
It was all going so well until he fell off the page.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
I smell a larger hint of desperation from Remain here - they know how much the EU is hated - and the EU have so far deliberately kept away from making comments for fear of driving Brexit.
So the corollary is that this tactic of omerta from the EU is not working so something else has to be tried.
And the corollary from that is the Remain know they are going to lose.
Dr. Foxinsox, I know you used quotation marks but Catalonia and Scotland cannot possibly be considered city-states.
A better example for the argument you're seeking to make would be the desire of Venice and its environs to secede from Italy.
Scotland less so than Catalonia perhaps, but having a overarching structure does allow smaller nations to prosper.
A further example is in the Balkans. After breaking up Yugoslavia, the successor states are all* busy applying to re-unify under the EU.
*Kosova excluded
That's because the former Yugoslavian republics are impoverished and would gain subsidies etc to join the EU ... not pay for the privilege. It is not comparable to us at all.
My wife is very pro-EU for Bulgaria.
Corruption and organised crime are a huge problem there, they have no money, and she sees no other way to lift the country up.
Do you think the EU is the acceptable face of imperialism?
This is another point we don't really understand about the EU. Many of the elites in the poorer countries want to be part of a Franco-German Empire. They may be disappointed about how the German national interest has re-asserted itself over the Euro but on balance they'd rather stay in than leave.
I'd agree with that. I'm in Greece right now and have been talking to people about Grexit and the EU. Despite everything, people are much more upbeat about the EU than they are in the UK. There is the feeling that Greece is a first world country because of the EU. (There is also a remarkable acceptance that the Greeks themselves, and in particular their previous governments, bear a major part of the blame)
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
She also took us into the ERM. She governed as a Pro -European.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
"Who do you think you are kidding Mrs. Merkel If you think we're on the run? We are the boys who will stop your little game! We are the boys who will make you think again! 'Cause, who do you think you are kidding Mrs. Merkel If you think old England’s done?"
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
If it was still the EEC, and not the EU, then I'm sure lots of people would agree with you.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Harry Cole Corbyn plunges Remain into chaos by branding Treasury forecasts "hysterical hype" + vowing to torpedo EU trade deal: https://t.co/3FmLFWInFB
It was all going so well until he fell off the page.
On the Referendum, Labour are being asked not to punch George Osborne in the face.
Even their Leader has failed to resist that temptation.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
She also took us into the ERM. She governed as a Pro -European.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
She wrote letters to the Telegraph sympathetic to UKIP, after the Bruges Speech and she lost the leadership she was fiercely anti EU, as shown when she coordinated the opposition to Maastricht from Tory backbenchers. She backed IDS over Clarke because of the EU and made clear she would not have done a deal with the LDs in 2010, she would have backed Leave
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
She also took us into the ERM. She governed as a Pro -European.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
What we should grasp, however, from the lessons of European history is that, first, there is nothing necessarily benevolent about programmes of European integration; second, the desire to achieve grand utopian plans often poses a grave threat to freedom; and third, European unity has been tried before, and the outcome was far from happy.
- M. H. Thatcher, "Statecraft: Strategies for a Changing World", 2002.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Was that pre or post Bruges?
The EEC pre Delors is not what we are a member of today.
The thing is that if Cameron wants to win his referendum, it's not in his interest that Corbyn pretends to think he and Osborne are temporarily sound fellows saying sensible things. He needs Corbyn to fire up left-wing voters, and the way to do that is to rubbish the wilder stuff from Osborne but point out the real dangers of leaving from a Labour perspective. The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised.
That all depends on how the speech is covered on the TV, though. Perhaps booing the BBC reporter was not helpful on that front.
I watched the the whole speech.
Confused, conflicted and I'd no idea by the end what the outcome was supposed to be.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You are twisting round so much, by the end of this Referendum you are going to resemble a pretzel...
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never supported anything like a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'Everything She Wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union. Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
Heard that before?
She did not want the ERM and turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and she would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear no more nonsense from you on this subject. If we do, and I spot it, I will continue to pull you up on it.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Was that pre or post Bruges?
The EEC pre Delors is not what we are a member of today.
I agree with you- I think though I am speaking though much further ahead when the world will be a much better place- in the future there will not be any crime because of technology- people will not be able to get away with it. The health system in the future will be beyond recognition. There will be little concept of manual labour. Much of our legal framework and corporate structure will be standardised through technology across borders.
In this moment I completely agree with preserving European institutions and developing them. After all, migrants want to come here. It is the things we have that they want. They are escaping their own poor governance.
It's nice to be optimistic, but I see little reason to be.
Take crime - the long term trend is toward the police and justice services delivering scant disincentives for theft, housebreaking, GBH etc. and indeed often seeming to ignore such 'low level' crime, whilst vastly increasing the pressure of regulation on law-abiding citizens. Look at the London riots where the police were stood down. Are our justice services even interested in protecting citizens?
Health system - we can only hope to stave off death for a few more years of medically-supported senescence, rather than living truly healthy and long lives, until we stop focussing on 'magic bullets', and start seriously questioning the things we do that we know lead to diabetes, cancer, and other lifestyle diseases. We're not healthy, we're waiting to get sick, and I see little chance of that changing while we're still pumping in cash hoping to develop drugs to 'cure' us.
Manual labour - we'll see.
Legal frameworks - the trend here is indeed for universal rules, but those that are created to benefit the corporatist elites they are meant to be governing. Such institutions will never improve the lot of the poor, nor are they intended to.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Was that pre or post Bruges?
The EEC pre Delors is not what we are a member of today.
Pre her taking us into the ERM.
The President of the Commission, M. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the Executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear no more nonsense from you on this subject. If we do, and I spot it, I will continue to pull you up on it.
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak on this subject. He said she would be for Remain.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
She also took us into the ERM. She governed as a Pro -European.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
That's a great piece of analysis and very thought-provoking. I think you could be right there – on a pure-play pro-trade and pro-business level, I think she would have been head for Remain, heart for Leave, vote for Remain.
Dr. Foxinsox, I know you used quotation marks but Catalonia and Scotland cannot possibly be considered city-states.
A better example for the argument you're seeking to make would be the desire of Venice and its environs to secede from Italy.
Scotland less so than Catalonia perhaps, but having a overarching structure does allow smaller nations to prosper.
A further example is in the Balkans. After breaking up Yugoslavia, the successor states are all* busy applying to re-unify under the EU.
*Kosova excluded
That's because the former Yugoslavian republics are impoverished and would gain subsidies etc to join the EU ... not pay for the privilege. It is not comparable to us at all.
My wife is very pro-EU for Bulgaria.
Corruption and organised crime are a huge problem there, they have no money, and she sees no other way to lift the country up.
Do you think the EU is the acceptable face of imperialism?
This is another point we don't really understand about the EU. Many of the elites in the poorer countries want to be part of a Franco-German Empire. They may be disappointed about how the German national interest has re-asserted itself over the Euro but on balance they'd rather stay in than leave.
I'd agree with that. I'm in Greece right now and have been talking to people about Grexit and the EU. Despite everything, people are much more upbeat about the EU than they are in the UK. There is the feeling that Greece is a first world country because of the EU. (There is also a remarkable acceptance that the Greeks themselves, and in particular their previous governments, bear a major part of the blame)
Dr Sox, made an interesting point about many EU countries being more used to be in a federation. I'd suggest that with a few exceptions most EU member states are used to being ruled or at least bossed about by a foreign power and the EU is just the latest one in line going back centuries. So it is business as normal, if not slightly better than it has been in the past.
Democratic self-determination, is with exception, I think of Sweden, is not something that any continental EU country has experienced for longer than 70 years.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you? Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear no more nonsense from you on this subject. If we do, and I spot it, I will continue to pull you up on it.
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak on this subject. He said she would be for Remain.
But what would he know.
Mr. Chairman, you have invited me to speak on the subject of Britain and Europe. Perhaps I should congratulate you on your courage. If you believe some of the things said and written about my views on Europe, it must seem rather like inviting Genghis Khan to speak on the virtues of peaceful coexistence! ...The European Community is one manifestation of that European identity, but it is not the only one. We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain, peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture, freedom and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities...To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve. Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality...it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)
And so we come full circle: back to arguing about which side a corpse would vote for and refighting World War Two.
We don't need to refight the world wars it's pretty obvious now to anyone we lost both of them. Oddly we also ended up in the bizarre position of ultimately joining with Germany to oppose the Russians which was the long held view of *cough* a certain other German leader. *cough*
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Was that pre or post Bruges?
The EEC pre Delors is not what we are a member of today.
It doesn't really matter. We are where we are. A vote to Remain will be taken by Brussels to be a vote for "More Europe".
If we were getting a vote on "Less Europe" that option would be far preferred to Brexit, but that option is not, and will never be, available.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You are twisting round so much, by the end of this Referendum you are going to resemble a pretzel...
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear no more nonsense from you on this subject. If we do, and I spot it, I will continue to pull you up on it.
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak on this subject. He said she would be for Remain.
But what would he know.
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
Isis terror plot in Germany: Four Syrian men arrested for allegedly planning suicide bombings in Düsseldorf
They planned to deploy two suicide bombers on Heinrich-Heine-Allee street before more attackers killed as many passers-by as possible with guns and explosives.
Andrew Lilico Labour voters: your leader says Treasury forecasts of Brexit's economic impact are "hysterical hype", "histrionic" & "prophecies of doom".
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
Thatcher would have been for Leave though if she was still alive, alongside Howard and IDS, Major, Cameron and Hague for Remain (alongside Heath if he also was still around too!)
She also took us into the ERM. She governed as a Pro -European.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
You are totally unqualified to comment and know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about.
'Europe' is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt.
-M. H. Thatcher, "Statecraft: Strategies for a Changing World", 2002.
Andrew Lilico Labour voters: your leader says Treasury forecasts of Brexit's economic impact are "hysterical hype", "histrionic" & "prophecies of doom".
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Andrew Lilico Labour voters: your leader says Treasury forecasts of Brexit's economic impact are "hysterical hype", "histrionic" & "prophecies of doom".
Corbyn is correct.
It's hilarious. Agent Corbyn strikes again. It was an appalling speech, but the quotes are fantastic.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Asmarket anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
"During my lifetime most of the problems the world has faced have come, in one fashion or other, from mainland Europe, and the solutions from outside it."
The thing is that if Cameron wants to win his referendum, it's not in his interest that Corbyn pretends to think he and Osborne are temporarily sound fellows saying sensible things. He needs Corbyn to fire up left-wing voters, and the way to do that is to rubbish the wilder stuff from Osborne but point out the real dangers of leaving from a Labour perspective. The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised.
Corbyn hates the EU as you well know. He's playing his hand masterfully and late to achieve his goals.
Corbyn's political mentor and idol Tony Benn hated the EU as does his formidably qualified weather scientist brother Piers whom apparently he hugely respects.
Isis terror plot in Germany: Four Syrian men arrested for allegedly planning suicide bombings in Düsseldorf
They planned to deploy two suicide bombers on Heinrich-Heine-Allee street before more attackers killed as many passers-by as possible with guns and explosives.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
You get the feeling there is a great big BUT..... about to follow that. Which would be spot on.
"BUT David Cameron failed to get an adequate renegotiation to keep us in Europe..."
In a speech in Copenhagen in January 1993 Thatcher was highly critical of the Maastricht treaty. But she voiced support for what will be one of the messages at the heart of David Cameron’s campaign to keep Britain in a reformed EU – that Britain has the best of both worlds as a member of the EU while retaining opt-outs from the euro and the supposedly border-free Schengen area. Thatcher said: “Within a common market, we should aim at a multi-track Europe in which ad hoc groups of different states forge varying levels of co-operation and integration, according to their circumstances. Indeed that is what the Schengen group does.”
@TSE what about this note in July 1993 "However, in her note the former Prime Minister writes: "I understand it is being suggested in some quarters that I would have agreed to the Maastricht Treaty. May I make it clear that I would NOT have done so.""
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
This is the letter referring to what she said in July 1993 - she felt too many powers had been surrendered *before* Maastrict was signed, and wanted a referendum prior to its passage. That was 23 years ago:
11 April 1997 Dear Sir,
In view of your report in George Parker's column today, I wonder if I may make the facts clear about my vote in the House of Lords in relation to the Maastricht Treaty.
The House of Lords has a tradition whereby there is no vote on a Bill's Second Reading. The main vote on Maastricht therefore came on an Amendment to the Bill moved by Lord Blake of Braydeston, which, in his own words, sought to ensure “that the Maastricht Treaty takes effect only after a referendum has been established as to whether or not the people want it.” (House of Lords Hansard 14 July 1993, Column 240). My criticisms of Maastricht were set out at length in my speech reported in that same debate (ibid., Columns 281-286).
I concluded by saying:
“The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I. They want to keep intact our Parliament too and they do not want to diminish its powers or its authority or its prestige. In my view, we have surrendered too many powers already. We should surrender no more unless the people wish it. It is the people's turn to speak. It is their powers of which we are the custodians.”
This still seems to me a fair statement of the position.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
You get the feeling there is a great big BUT..... about to follow that. Which would be spot on.
"BUT David Cameron failed to get an adequate renegotiation to keep us in Europe..."
In a speech in Copenhagen in January 1993 Thatcher was highly critical of the Maastricht treaty. But she voiced support for what will be one of the messages at the heart of David Cameron’s campaign to keep Britain in a reformed EU – that Britain has the best of both worlds as a member of the EU while retaining opt-outs from the euro and the supposedly border-free Schengen area. Thatcher said: “Within a common market, we should aim at a multi-track Europe in which ad hoc groups of different states forge varying levels of co-operation and integration, according to their circumstances. Indeed that is what the Schengen group does.”
I could never have signed this treaty. I hope that that is clear to all who have heard me.
- M. H. Thatcher, Speech to the House of Lords rejecting the Maastricht Treaty (7 June, 1993)
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
(Edited extra bit) Obviously there are some eternal verities, e.g. The French always have, still do and always will, hate the English.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Darth Eagles, In politics what does it matter what people who are dead said or what they meant or how we think they would have reacted to the challenges of today. They are dead and gone, it is what people now think about today's problems that matter.
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
Wellington would have admired Cameron. Old Etonian Tory PMs when dealing with Europe are the dogs dangly bits.
Good grief! From reading pb.com I was certain those numbers would have been the other way around!!!
Who exactly on PB.com has been saying that you shouldn't be sacked for punching a fellow employee?
There have been one or two. The suggestion was that, such was Clarkson's genius, the BBC could turn a blind eye to the odd bit off GBH here and there if it meant preserving the masterwork that was Top Gear.
@chrisshipitv: NEW: Angela Merkel to UK "you will never get a good outcome from the single market unless you're in the room"
NEW: Merkel breaks her #Brexit silence. Tells UK "on your own you won't get a good result from the single market" if you're not at the table
Ohhh....So just basically another threat then. Just like Obama swanning in here with his back of the queue speech. Never have I seen a British PM invite another leader in to allow his own people to be threatened.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
The single market was Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement.
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
You really know nothing about Thatcher, do you?
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'everything she wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union.
Heard that before?
Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
She turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and would never have
I also heard Sir Charles Powell speak
Yes. That's your only source. A civil servant who served her in the 80s who talked about what he 'thought' she thought.
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
I have Thatcher's own words too. What do you think she meant when she said this in 1997?
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
Source please?
I'll add a proper link in the thread I publish headlined 'Thatcher would back Remain'
This is the letter referring to what she said in July 1993 - she felt too many powers had been surrendered *before* Maastrict was signed, and wanted a referendum prior to its passage. That was 23 years ago:
11 April 1997 Dear Sir,
In view of your report in George Parker's column today, I wonder if I may make the facts clear about my vote in the House of Lords in relation to the Maastricht Treaty.
The House of Lords has a tradition whereby there is no vote on a Bill's Second Reading. The main vote on Maastricht therefore came on an Amendment to the Bill moved by Lord Blake of Braydeston, which, in his own words, sought to ensure “that the Maastricht Treaty takes effect only after a referendum has been established as to whether or not the people want it.” (House of Lords Hansard 14 July 1993, Column 240). My criticisms of Maastricht were set out at length in my speech reported in that same debate (ibid., Columns 281-286).
I concluded by saying:
“The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I. They want to keep intact our Parliament too and they do not want to diminish its powers or its authority or its prestige. In my view, we have surrendered too many powers already. We should surrender no more unless the people wish it. It is the people's turn to speak. It is their powers of which we are the custodians.”
This still seems to me a fair statement of the position.
Dr. Foxinsox, I know you used quotation marks but Catalonia and Scotland cannot possibly be considered city-states.
A better example for the argument you're seeking to make would be the desire of Venice and its environs to secede from Italy.
Scotland less so than Catalonia perhaps, but having a overarching structure does allow smaller nations to prosper.
A further example is in the Balkans. After breaking up Yugoslavia, the successor states are all* busy applying to re-unify under the EU.
*Kosova excluded
That's because the former Yugoslavian republics are impoverished and would gain subsidies etc to join the EU ... not pay for the privilege. It is not comparable to us at all.
My wife is very pro-EU for Bulgaria.
Corruption and organised crime are a huge problem there, they have no money, and she sees no other way to lift the country up.
Do you think the EU is the acceptable face of imperialism?
This is another point we don't really understand about the EU. Many of the elites in the poorer countries want to be part of a Franco-German Empire. They may be disappointed about how the German national interest has re-asserted itself over the Euro but on balance they'd rather stay in than leave.
I'd agree with that. I'm in Greece right now and have been talking to people about Grexit and the EU. Despite everything, people are much more upbeat about the EU than they are in the UK. There is the feeling that Greece is a first world country because of the EU. (There is also a remarkable acceptance that the Greeks themselves, and in particular their previous governments, bear a major part of the blame)
I lived in Germany from 1998 to 2008, and I was also struck by the completely different attitude to the EU. While some Germans regarded the EU with exasperation and annoyance, there was non of the outright hostility that was prevalent in the UK even then. They tended to see the EU as their family - irritating and awkward sometimes, but still "us". The UK attitude, in contrast, has been very much "us" and "them" for the last few decades. Personally, I put the most blame for this on the insidious nature of an enduring anti-EU campaign by the British press.
Would a Top Gear poll taken across the European Union under the AV system have yielded a different result had Clarkson been championed by Margaret Thatcher?
This is the letter referring to what she said in July 1993 - she felt too many powers had been surrendered *before* Maastrict was signed, and wanted a referendum prior to its passage. That was 23 years ago:
11 April 1997 Dear Sir,
In view of your report in George Parker's column today, I wonder if I may make the facts clear about my vote in the House of Lords in relation to the Maastricht Treaty.
The House of Lords has a tradition whereby there is no vote on a Bill's Second Reading. The main vote on Maastricht therefore came on an Amendment to the Bill moved by Lord Blake of Braydeston, which, in his own words, sought to ensure “that the Maastricht Treaty takes effect only after a referendum has been established as to whether or not the people want it.” (House of Lords Hansard 14 July 1993, Column 240). My criticisms of Maastricht were set out at length in my speech reported in that same debate (ibid., Columns 281-286).
I concluded by saying:
“The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I. They want to keep intact our Parliament too and they do not want to diminish its powers or its authority or its prestige. In my view, we have surrendered too many powers already. We should surrender no more unless the people wish it. It is the people's turn to speak. It is their powers of which we are the custodians.”
This still seems to me a fair statement of the position.
Yours faithfully Margaret Thatcher
The Editor, The Financial Times
Game, set, match and championship to LEAVE.
No signature on it - he could have difficulty with payout. He should have got on when it was 3s or bigger to be honest though.
Isis terror plot in Germany: Four Syrian men arrested for allegedly planning suicide bombings in Düsseldorf
They planned to deploy two suicide bombers on Heinrich-Heine-Allee street before more attackers killed as many passers-by as possible with guns and explosives.
@NoahsStowAway: @JohnRentoul@TSEofPB Still yet to meet a remain supporter in real life. Cannot see how it is judged close except for preparing the big lie
Comments
I hear Boris has managed to do a photo-op with a cow.
Give him a pat on the back.
German parliament approves resolution declaring mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks "genocide". Turkey recalls Ambassador. Awkward.
Conflict News
MORE: Deputy PM Kurtulmuş: Turkey will provide a "thorough response in variety of forums to Germany’s vote" - @HasanSari7
Brexit "not something that would really affect the sovereign credit risk." says PIMCO's Andrew Balls.
https://t.co/d1iO5WV09c
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/738330900774146048
'ok Jeremy, we need you to deliver a short, clear message to Labour voters about voting #remain'
'got it' https://t.co/fJNQgrfJFH
It is simply a convenient way for the Europhiles to ignore the huge array of other competences that the EU now has which do not apply to the EFTA members. Given that 91% of EU legislation does not apply to the EFTA countries it is clear that the EU is so much more than just trade and that the EFTA countries are not subject to this.
As for Merkel's latest vapid bilge it's not the single market anyone really has an issue with. It's the political stuff that seems to overshadow all of it........ and us.
"The number of Labour voters who will vote Remain because they trust Osborne is zero, but the number who think that a Tory government free of EU constraints will run amok is substantial and needs to be mobilised."
I find that just so depressing. It may be good short term politics, but encouraging a false belief in in order to obtain a political goal just stores up trouble down the line and is corrosive for the political process and social cohesion.
There are good and honest arguments to be made for both sides of the debate and its a real shame that the politicians don't just stick to making them. To actively go out of their way to encourage false beliefs is, in my view, just wrong, so wrong.
German government moving to block the takeover of Kuka Germanys main robotics manufacturer by the Chinese.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/china-warnt-vor-politisierung-von-kuka-uebernahme-14265619.html
I shall honour her by voting Remain as all good free market Conservatives should.
Oooh, that's given me an idea for a thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfQwHb1pWPE
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-pimco-idUSKCN0YO0VR
Balls Junior implies Treasury is overstating risks. Given his position, and reputation, it is an interesting observation.
So the corollary is that this tactic of omerta from the EU is not working so something else has to be tried.
And the corollary from that is the Remain know they are going to lose.
She knew the realpolitik and she would be for Remain.
If you think we're on the run?
We are the boys who will stop your little game!
We are the boys who will make you think again!
'Cause, who do you think you are kidding Mrs. Merkel
If you think old England’s done?"
If it was still the EEC, and not the EU, then I'm sure lots of people would agree with you.
Even their Leader has failed to resist that temptation.
- M. H. Thatcher, "Statecraft: Strategies for a Changing World", 2002.
The EEC pre Delors is not what we are a member of today.
Confused, conflicted and I'd no idea by the end what the outcome was supposed to be.
It's not a clear call to vote for anything.
I'm getting sick and tired of you invoking her to try and appeal to Tories to vote Remain.
Let me make it very clear for you: she supported a trading block, but always fought for the national interest, was very suspicious of Brussels and never supported anything like a political union. Read Charles Moore's latest biography of her 'Everything She Wants' and the chapter on 'European Community'.
She was hesitant about signing the Single European Act precisely because it contained aspirations on political union. Her officials assured her it was just words, and meant nothing, and she was politically pressured into signing it by her cabinet colleagues.
Heard that before?
She did not want the ERM and turned decisively against the EEC in 1988, which contributed in no small part to her defenestration and she would never have signed Maastrict.
She was also a Brexiter. I know, because she told me in 2005, and it's also alluded to in her book 'Statecraft'. If you don't believe me, speak to Mark Worthington (her personal secretary), Conor Burns MP (a close personal friend) or either of her biographers, Charles Moore and Robin Harris. All of whom knew her far better than you did.
I hope we hear no more nonsense from you on this subject. If we do, and I spot it, I will continue to pull you up on it.
Take crime - the long term trend is toward the police and justice services delivering scant disincentives for theft, housebreaking, GBH etc. and indeed often seeming to ignore such 'low level' crime, whilst vastly increasing the pressure of regulation on law-abiding citizens. Look at the London riots where the police were stood down. Are our justice services even interested in protecting citizens?
Health system - we can only hope to stave off death for a few more years of medically-supported senescence, rather than living truly healthy and long lives, until we stop focussing on 'magic bullets', and start seriously questioning the things we do that we know lead to diabetes, cancer, and other lifestyle diseases. We're not healthy, we're waiting to get sick, and I see little chance of that changing while we're still pumping in cash hoping to develop drugs to 'cure' us.
Manual labour - we'll see.
Legal frameworks - the trend here is indeed for universal rules, but those that are created to benefit the corporatist elites they are meant to be governing. Such institutions will never improve the lot of the poor, nor are they intended to.
No. No. No.
- M. H. Thatcher, 30 October 1990.
But what would he know.
Democratic self-determination, is with exception, I think of Sweden, is not something that any continental EU country has experienced for longer than 70 years.
Good grief! From reading pb.com I was certain those numbers would have been the other way around!!!
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech (20 September, 1988)
On the upside though......we did win a World Cup.
If we were getting a vote on "Less Europe" that option would be far preferred to Brexit, but that option is not, and will never be, available.
https://www.google.it/search?q=the+scream&client=safari&hl=en-it&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs9cb4ronNAhXIWhQKHZPzAJUQ_AUIBygB&biw=768&bih=937#imgrc=h9qo4B8XvamMhM:
That's it.
He's wrong, as all the individuals above will tell you.
They planned to deploy two suicide bombers on Heinrich-Heine-Allee street before more attackers killed as many passers-by as possible with guns and explosives.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/isis-terror-plot-in-germany-four-syrian-men-arrested-for-allegedly-planning-suicide-bombings-in-a7061356.html
Andrew Lilico
Labour voters: your leader says Treasury forecasts of Brexit's economic impact are "hysterical hype", "histrionic" & "prophecies of doom".
Everything you've written there is 100% wrong.
-M. H. Thatcher, "Statecraft: Strategies for a Changing World", 2002.
http://order-order.com/2016/06/02/mcdonnell-told-activists-to-target-journalists/
"The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I.”
- M. H. Thatcher, "Statecraft", 2002.
"BUT David Cameron failed to get an adequate renegotiation to keep us in Europe..."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/12151483/A-private-letter-written-by-Margaret-Thatcher-reveals-she-would-have-campaigned-for-Brexit-claims-Eurosceptic-MP.html
It's no secret. She supported a common market without political union.
When she realised that was no longer possible she moved to Brexit.
Just like many of the rest of us.
11 April 1997
Dear Sir,
In view of your report in George Parker's column today, I wonder if I may make the facts clear about my vote in the House of Lords in relation to the Maastricht Treaty.
The House of Lords has a tradition whereby there is no vote on a Bill's Second Reading. The main vote on Maastricht therefore came on an Amendment to the Bill moved by Lord Blake of Braydeston, which, in his own words, sought to ensure “that the Maastricht Treaty takes effect only after a referendum has been established as to whether or not the people want it.” (House of Lords Hansard 14 July 1993, Column 240). My criticisms of Maastricht were set out at length in my speech reported in that same debate (ibid., Columns 281-286).
I concluded by saying:
“The majority of our people want Britain to be in Europe, and so do I. They want to keep intact our Parliament too and they do not want to diminish its powers or its authority or its prestige. In my view, we have surrendered too many powers already. We should surrender no more unless the people wish it. It is the people's turn to speak. It is their powers of which we are the custodians.”
This still seems to me a fair statement of the position.
Yours faithfully
Margaret Thatcher
The Editor, The Financial Times
- M. H. Thatcher, Speech to the House of Lords rejecting the Maastricht Treaty (7 June, 1993)
Churchill, Attlee, Bevan, Thatcher and all the rest were great people who served this country to the best of their abilities, but they are dead. The world has turned. They are history. We might just as well ask what the Great Duke (Wellington) would have made of it all.
(Edited extra bit) Obviously there are some eternal verities, e.g. The French always have, still do and always will, hate the English.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cj8qM8MWkAAbpZ8.jpg:large
(I can call them Islamic terrorists as the BBC director of Religion has confirmed that ISIS represents a form of Islam)
@NoahsStowAway: @JohnRentoul @TSEofPB Still yet to meet a remain supporter in real life. Cannot see how it is judged close except for preparing the big lie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36432286