Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
No. You need to show ID to get on a plane. Are you having trouble with this? Really? Seriously? You think it's just like getting on a bus?
Besides which, if they do get here by what ever means, they can be sent home. They have no right to reside.
I thought we'd agreed that planes were not the only way to get from the mainland to NI and back. Last time I went on the Isle of Wight ferry I did not need ID.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
I'm pretty sure Spain applies the law of the land, the ultimate expressions of its sovereignty in controlling its frontiers from foreigners, to Majorca...
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
They will be able to freely enter NORTHERN IRELAND!
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
I'm pretty sure Spain applies the law of the land, the ultimate expressions of its sovereignty in controlling its frontiers from foreigners, to Majorca...
WHICH DOESN'T HAVE A LAND BORDER WITH A FOREIGN COUNTRY!!!!!!
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
You don't need a passport or any ID to get the Isle of Wight ferry. Why should it be different for Northern Ireland?
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
You don't need a passport or any ID to get the Isle of Wight ferry. Why should it be different for Northern Ireland?
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE A LAND BORDER WITH A FOREIGN COUNTRY!!!!
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
No. You need to show ID to get on a plane. Are you having trouble with this? Really? Seriously? You think it's just like getting on a bus?
Besides which, if they do get here by what ever means, they can be sent home. They have no right to reside.
Anyone from Finland to Romania to Portgual can settle in NI and the UK border patrol doesn't care. Try to go to Wales and they will enforce the law. Try to go to NI and they won't. Hmm.
No, of they are in Northern Ireland they will be easy to spot and deport. Less so in London.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
Given that the Irish land border cannot be defended, it's inevitable that Ireland and the UK have to cooperate on border security, hence the 2011 agreement.
The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.
My emphasis.
So much of what is being discussed in this thread isn't going to be new, it's what happens now.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
They will be able to freely enter NORTHERN IRELAND!
Putting it in capital letters does not stop it from currently being an integral part of the UK.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
So what?
So you are in favour of retaining free movement with the EU?
In the case of Northern Ireland, there is no choice.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
You don't need a passport or any ID to get the Isle of Wight ferry. Why should it be different for Northern Ireland?
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
Given that the Irish land border cannot be defended, it's inevitable that Ireland and the UK have to cooperate on border security, hence the 2011 agreement.
The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.
My emphasis.
So much of what is being discussed in this thread isn't going to be new, it's what happens now.
What happens now is that there is an open border with no controls. That will not continue to be the case. Clearly, there will be checks in a way that there aren't now. That will have a significant impact.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
So what?
So you are in favour of retaining free movement with the EU?
In the case of Northern Ireland, there is no choice.
We made it!! And that de facto completely changes Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
You don't need a passport or any ID to get the Isle of Wight ferry. Why should it be different for Northern Ireland?
Because of the 2011 CTA agreement.
Fact check: I thought the CTA agreement applied to travel between the Republic and the UK, not travel between NI and GB. NI is part of the UK.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
Given that the Irish land border cannot be defended, it's inevitable that Ireland and the UK have to cooperate on border security, hence the 2011 agreement.
The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.
My emphasis.
So much of what is being discussed in this thread isn't going to be new, it's what happens now.
What happens now is that there is an open border with no controls. That will not continue to be the case. Clearly, there will be checks in a way that there aren't now. That will have a significant impact.
As a matter of interest: have any of the people discussing this with increasing numbers of capital letters and exclamation marks ever taken a ferry between NI and the mainland?
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
They will be able to freely enter NORTHERN IRELAND!
Quick check: you do know Northern Ireland is part of the UK, yes?
Given that there will not be checks on the motorway that runs between Dublin and Belfast, or the numerous trains that travel back and forth each day between the two, what will change post-Brexit is Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK.
We can process them when they try to enter Britain. I'm not aware of Northern Ireland having a immigration problem.
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES NOT match the UK's immigration policy then NI will develop a migration problem as those who cant enter UK via GB will enter via NI and Ireland suddenly has a problem coping with entrants heading for the border
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES match the UK's immigration policy then the border can remain (pun!) open but Ireland suddenly has a problem because it's operating a UK-border-by-fax and for a country that presents itself as independent from the UK that will irk
The Irish Government is operating a pro-Remain campaign in the UK. Has it occurred to you that it may have good reasons for doing so?
At last! A non-cretinous post from a Remainer.
Scenario 1: well, they are welcome to stay in NI. But why will they? I've not heard of a immigration problem in NI.
Scenario 2: well, they have a land border with the UK and would like to keep it open. It perhaps would mean some loss of sovereignty, but they haven't joined Schengen for precisely that reason.
Its pro-Remain position is to avoid economic catastrophe if there is no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU. If one isn't reached, they will have to leave the EU.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Got it - so NI de facto ceases to be an integral part of the UK. Who's going to tell the DUP?
Still haven't noticed that Irish Sea yet?
Or other countries which are non-contiguous?
You don't need a passport or any ID to get the Isle of Wight ferry. Why should it be different for Northern Ireland?
Because of the 2011 CTA agreement.
Fact check: I thought the CTA agreement applied to travel between the Republic and the UK, not travel between NI and GB. NI is part of the UK.
Granted. But given that the Irish land border can't be defended, travel between NI and the UK mainland is de facto a matter that concerns both countries.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? Somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
No, you've got it completely wrong. The Republic if Ireland is obliged to allow all EU citizens the right to settle there. It can't stop them from entering its territory. If we do not implement border controls on our side of the border, all EU citizens will be able to freely enter the UK, as will anyone else who gains entry to Ireland.
So what?
So you are in favour of retaining free movement with the EU?
In the case of Northern Ireland, there is no choice.
We made it!! And that de facto completely changes Northern Ireland's relationship with the rest of the UK.
It already has a different relationship with the UK. It has agreements with the ROI about the River Foyle and the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
It not a contiguous part of Great Britain and that leads to different arrangements. For many years it had a parliament which other parts of the UK did not.
Something is going to break. It'll either be the Ireland/Northern Ireland border, or the Northern Ireland/Great Britain border, or Ireland's immigration policy, or something. The present balance is not tenable post-Brexit
We can process them when they try to enter Britain. I'm not aware of Northern Ireland having a immigration problem.
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES NOT match the UK's immigration policy then NI will develop a migration problem as those who cant enter UK via GB will enter via NI and Ireland suddenly has a problem coping with entrants heading for the border
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES match the UK's immigration policy then the border can remain (pun!) open but Ireland suddenly has a problem because it's operating a UK-border-by-fax and for a country that presents itself as independent from the UK that will irk
The Irish Government is operating a pro-Remain campaign in the UK. Has it occurred to you that it may have good reasons for doing so?
At last! A non-cretinous post from a Remainer.
Scenario 1: well, they are welcome to stay in NI. But why will they? I've not heard of a immigration problem in NI.
Scenario 2: well, they have a land border with the UK and would like to keep it open. It perhaps would mean some loss of sovereignty, but they haven't joined Schengen for precisely that reason.
Its pro-Remain position is to avoid economic catastrophe if there is no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU. If one isn't reached, they will have to leave the EU.
Schengen membership is incompatible with participation in the CTA unless all territories involved in the CTA join Schengen together.
This makes a hypothetical independent Scotland joining the EU problematic, of course.
We can process them when they try to enter Britain. I'm not aware of Northern Ireland having a immigration problem.
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES NOT match the UK's immigration policy then NI will develop a migration problem as those who cant enter UK via GB will enter via NI and Ireland suddenly has a problem coping with entrants heading for the border
If UK Brexits and institutes a stricter immigration policy and maintains the Ireland/Northern Ireland open border and Ireland DOES match the UK's immigration policy then the border can remain (pun!) open but Ireland suddenly has a problem because it's operating a UK-border-by-fax and for a country that presents itself as independent from the UK that will irk
The Irish Government is operating a pro-Remain campaign in the UK. Has it occurred to you that it may have good reasons for doing so?
At last! A non-cretinous post from a Remainer.
Scenario 1: well, they are welcome to stay in NI. But why will they? I've not heard of a immigration problem in NI.
Scenario 2: well, they have a land border with the UK and would like to keep it open. It perhaps would mean some loss of sovereignty, but they haven't joined Schengen for precisely that reason.
Its pro-Remain position is to avoid economic catastrophe if there is no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU. If one isn't reached, they will have to leave the EU.
Schengen membership is incompatible with participation in the CTA unless all territories involved in the CTA join Schengen together.
This makes a hypothetical independent Scotland joining the EU problematic, of course.
That border is defensible. We defended it for many years before.
Scenario 1: well, they are welcome to stay in NI. But why will they? I've not heard of a immigration problem in NI.
Scenario 2: well, they have a land border with the UK and would like to keep it open. It perhaps would mean some loss of sovereignty, but they haven't joined Schengen for precisely that reason.
Its pro-Remain position is to avoid economic catastrophe if there is no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU. If one isn't reached, they will have to leave the EU.
(I do have to mention parethetically that arguments with the phrase "why will they" inevitably go wrong in the first five minutes: people iz awkward)
However, having said that, I agree with much of what you say and also that some solution will be found. But as I said below: something will break.
The only reason why people come to the UK is that we give them a house and money - if we stop doing they will go somewhere else - cf the Somalis from the Netherlands and the Sudanese from Germany.
You continue to studiously ignore my point that the same freedom of movement policy that allows all EU citizens to come here also allows all UK citizens to live in any EU country. Removing the right of UK citizens to settle in any of the other 27 EU states cannot be rationally described as an anti-isolationist policy. Once again: freedom of movement is not all about immigration; it's also about the giving UK citizens the freedom to emigrate. Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge this?
We would not be removing any rights for UK citizens to live in any EU country. It would be up to the EU to decide what policy they wish to follow. If they wish to remain an isolationist backwater it would be their loss. We would be looking to the rest of the world.
You seem to want to try to blame the UK for what would be an entirely EU decision. I mean I know you are a fairly fanatical Europhile but that really is going too far.
If we remove the freedom of EU citizens to settle in the UK, we can hardly expect the EU countries to continue to allow UK citizens the freedom to settle in their countries. It's not rocket science.
No but it is also not us being isolationist. Normalising immigration rules with the other 93% of the world so they are treated as equals with the other EU states can in no way be considered isolationist, except perhaps in some strange Eurofanatic world.
I wasn't the one claiming that anything was isolationist. It is you who, rather bizarrely, claim that the EU policy of permitting complete freedom of movement within between the 28 countries of the EU is isolationist. It isn't. What you call "normalising" immigration rules actually amounts to curtailing the freedom of UK citizens to work abroad. While you may consdier this a resonable price to pay for reducing immigration, you should be honest enough to acknowledge the fact.
I think you must have gone to the George Orwell School of newspeak. Either that or you are too dumb to understand the basic logic. We will not be curtailing anything as far as our citizens are concerned. That is entirely up to the EU to decide what it does. It is not for the UK to dictate that. What we can do is say that everyone seeking to come to the UK is treated equally - unlike the racist, colonialist policy we currently have and which you seem to be such a fan of.
I wasn't the one claiming that anything was isolationist. It is you who, rather bizarrely, claim that the EU policy of permitting complete freedom of movement within between the 28 countries of the EU is isolationist. It isn't. What you call "normalising" immigration rules actually amounts to curtailing the freedom of UK citizens to work abroad. While you may consdier this a resonable price to pay for reducing immigration, you should be honest enough to acknowledge the fact.
Oh and in case you missed it I have never said I wanted to curtail immigration. It is not an issue for me. What I want is for everyone to be given equal opportunity and equal treatment irrespective of where they come from.
Re NI. You've considered that Ireland will be the one instituting EU border controls to ward off UK-resident prospective migrants with no right to free movement into the EU?
Let's see if I've got this right?
The ROI will be putting in border checks with NI? somewhere it considers part of the same country? That would devastate its own economy? Turn Donegal into effective enclave? Completely isolate the effective enclave already in existence? No it bloody won't.
It may institute border controls at its ports and airports for entry into the rest of the EU.
UK will have a different residency and immigration policy to IE and all other EU countries with no free movement, correct? So how could IE NOT have border checks? It would otherwise be an entrepot for illegal UK-based migration to the EU.
Ireland isn't in Schengen.
Neither are we. But if we can't control our borders, how can Ireland?
If they rock up in Dublin, it's Ireland's problem. If they rock up in the Ardoyne... then it will be their problem. If they get on a flight from Belfast to the mainland... then they'll get spotted at border control.
Apparently the Leave people really are planning to break up the UK. It's not just something that will happen because the Scots will leave, it's their actual plan. They want a new border with immigration checks between Britain and Northern Ireland.
Rubbish. RemaIN allows us to unite with other people. Surely a noble thing - not being an isolationist and anti-foreigner.
Don Quixote was noble. Not sure what that has to do with the price of fish.
Well, I suppose you can say Cameron's behaviour has been Quixotic.
he goes to brussels (the inn that don quixote believes is a castle) and goes through a meaningless ceremony so that the innkeeper (the eu heads of state) can get rid of him...
not entirely sure who serves as dulcinea and who is sancho in this version but
Rubbish. RemaIN allows us to unite with other people. Surely a noble thing - not being an isolationist and anti-foreigner.
Don Quixote was noble. Not sure what that has to do with the price of fish.
Well, I suppose you can say Cameron's behaviour has been Quixotic.
he goes to brussels (the inn that don quixote believes is a castle) and goes through a meaningless ceremony so that the innkeeper (the eu heads of state) can get rid of him...
not entirely sure who serves as dulcinea and who is sancho in this version but
at least the whole thing may eventually be blamed on enchanted moors
Comments
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html
The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.
My emphasis.
So much of what is being discussed in this thread isn't going to be new, it's what happens now.
And on that bombshell, goodnight :-)
Scenario 1: well, they are welcome to stay in NI. But why will they? I've not heard of a immigration problem in NI.
Scenario 2: well, they have a land border with the UK and would like to keep it open. It perhaps would mean some loss of sovereignty, but they haven't joined Schengen for precisely that reason.
Its pro-Remain position is to avoid economic catastrophe if there is no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU. If one isn't reached, they will have to leave the EU.
It not a contiguous part of Great Britain and that leads to different arrangements. For many years it had a parliament which other parts of the UK did not.
This makes a hypothetical independent Scotland joining the EU problematic, of course.
However, having said that, I agree with much of what you say and also that some solution will be found. But as I said below: something will break.
http://tinyurl.com/ze4z2nk
Oh and in case you missed it I have never said I wanted to curtail immigration. It is not an issue for me. What I want is for everyone to be given equal opportunity and equal treatment irrespective of where they come from.
he goes to brussels (the inn that don quixote believes is a castle) and goes through a meaningless ceremony so that the innkeeper (the eu heads of state) can get rid of him...
not entirely sure who serves as dulcinea and who is sancho in this version but