can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net.... From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
The fact that Cameron and Osborne continue to front REMAIN, makes me wonder if they are actually looking at the polling? In GE 2010 Conservative campaign it has been reported that there was a shortage of internal polling to test the ideas and slogans etc.
Gosh Plato- you really are a bit thin skinned. What I said, and still stand by, is that I find ideological women (I know this is misogynist) particularly unattractive, especially right wing zealous ones. Although lefties are not that much better to be frank. I certainly couldn't sustain a long term, intimate relationship with one. Your life would just be too intense.
The reference to a threesome with Katie Hopins, and Anne Coulter, two particularly odious types, was just to wind you up, and rather badly done by me. And that is my way of offering an apology of sorts.
I think you'd believe anything dearest Plato provided it was compatible with your rather warped, right wing, and quite frankly twisted prism of what you think the world should be. The fact that you support Trump so vehemently speaks volumes......
Donald Trump Protester Speaks Out: “I Was Paid $3,500 To Protest Trump’s Rally” https://t.co/pMpl3WY1qC via @ABC News
It just gets worse and worse. These were supposedly Democrats running this interference???
“Almost all of the people I was protesting with I had seen at my interview and training class. At the rally, talking with some of them, I learned they only paid Latinos $500, Muslims $600 and African Americans $750. I don’t think they were looking for any Asians. Women and children were paid half of what the men got and illegals received $300 across the board. I think I was paid more than the other protesters because I was white and had taken classes in street fighting and boxing a few years back”
It's just beyond WTF.
Frankly, after you said here that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory, and fantasised about me in a threesome with Katie Hopkins and Anne Coulter - I think you're really weird.
No. I think you're a hypocrite of the worst variety. All empty virtue-signalling and teenage Citizen Smith political posturing.
Mr. HYUFD, mistake assuming Greens and Lib Dems are automatic Remain voters. Friend of my mother who is a certain Leave voter (due to concerns over Turkey) was/is a strong Lib Dem voter.
I also know some Greeny/Lib Dem OUTERS.
There are even a handful of UKIP Remainers, I was talking averages
Mr. F, *all* is stretching it too far. Some are more emotive, others more analytical. Reasoned arguments persuade some, emotional pleas others.
Mr. Dancer, Some years ago I did some work looking at how senior executives come to decisions. What I thought I would find was that they weigh the evidence, seek out the facts. balance one thing with another, consider the overall objective they wanted to achieve and then decide. I was quite shocked to find very few of them do. Decisions are most commonly made very quickly on gut feel based on past experience and often ill-acknowledged prejudices. Evidence and data comes very low down the list, and was frequently ignored or belittled if it did not match the executive's mindset.
Of course, big decisions in business and government are usually the result of lots of little decisions, so a narrative is created in the executive's mind which convinces him or her that they are on the right track.
It is one of the reasons that I am convinced that most highly paid executives could be replaced with people with real experience in their business at much lower cost. To pick an example from these pages in recent days, SeanT mention that bloke from America who was brought over to run the Daily Telegraph. He didn't understand the business or the customers and buggered the whole thing up before he was finally sacked, but not before he inflicted, probably, irreparable damage. There are lots of other examples in recent UK industrial and government history.
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
If we vote to remain, and then the deal gets thrown out by say the EU parliament, would you demand another referendum, or insist that this one was on the basis the deal might be sunk afterwards?
No-one gives a toss about the renegotiation deal. Committed Remainers and Leavers will have already made up their minds on other considerations. The genuinely undecided are only now paying attention, during the campaign itself; the negotiation will have passed them by. In the above scenario, the only people complaining will be Leavers lying and saying they voted Remain.
Mr. HYUFD, mistake assuming Greens and Lib Dems are automatic Remain voters. Friend of my mother who is a certain Leave voter (due to concerns over Turkey) was/is a strong Lib Dem voter.
I gave UKIP 100% Leave, Greens/LDs 100% Remain, based on averages not absolutes. I also gave Leave 50% of Labour voters, a figure higher than any poll has showed
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
I took the tube up to Primrose Hill yesterday afternoon in your neck of the woods and it was a wonderful sunny evening, I knew today would be grey in the South East so went to Epping market and am now catching up on House of Cards
Gosh Plato- you really are a bit thin skinned. What I said, and still stand by, is that I find ideological women (I know this is misogynist) particularly unattractive, especially right wing zealous ones. Although lefties are not that much better to be frank. I certainly couldn't sustain a long term, intimate relationship with one. Your life would just be too intense.
The reference to a threesome with Katie Hopins, and Anne Coulter, two particularly odious types, was just to wind you up, and rather badly done by me. And that is my way of offering an apology of sorts.
I think you'd believe anything dearest Plato provided it was compatible with your rather warped, right wing, and quite frankly twisted prism of what you think the world should be. The fact that you support Trump so vehemently speaks volumes......
Donald Trump Protester Speaks Out: “I Was Paid $3,500 To Protest Trump’s Rally” https://t.co/pMpl3WY1qC via @ABC News
It just gets worse and worse. These were supposedly Democrats running this interference???
“Almost all of the people I was protesting with I had seen at my interview and training class. At the rally, talking with some of them, I learned they only paid Latinos $500, Muslims $600 and African Americans $750. I don’t think they were looking for any Asians. Women and children were paid half of what the men got and illegals received $300 across the board. I think I was paid more than the other protesters because I was white and had taken classes in street fighting and boxing a few years back”
It's just beyond WTF.
Frankly, after you said here that you'd never knowingly be friends with a Tory, and fantasised about me in a threesome with Katie Hopkins and Anne Coulter - I think you're really weird.
No. I think you're a hypocrite of the worst variety. All empty virtue-signalling and teenage Citizen Smith political posturing.
can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
My twitter feed is full of Tories who are really irked by Cameron's behaviour. Positively insulted. Others keep joining in conversations at how unhappy they are. One kindly posted a pix of his membership card sliced into small pieces.
Whatever else, Cameron has alienated a big chunk of his natural supporters totally unnecessarily.
I have always thought that a large number of Labour voters would stay at home on 23rd June. This is primarily a fight on the right and with Corbyn so incompetent and discredited what real motivation is there to get involved? Great news for Leave and another reason to think they'll probably win. That said some Labour areas - London in particular - are likely to see higher than average turnout.
If the Tories get 40-45% of their voters out for Remain they will edge it, just, even with significant numbers of Labour voters staying home
The Tories are such an ungrateful lot. Cameron's strategy- including the manifesto pledge for an in/out vote won the party a first majority for a generation.
can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
My twitter feed is full of Tories who are really irked by Cameron's behaviour. Positively insulted. Others keep joining in conversations at how unhappy they are. One kindly posted a pix of his membership card sliced into small pieces.
Whatever else, Cameron has alienated a big chunk of his natural supporters totally unnecessarily.
can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
One kindly posted a pix of his member sliced into small pieces.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
As I have pointed out some Labour voters abstaining is not enough for Leave unless they get at least 60%+ of Tory voters voting Out
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
What about Wales overall if Wales votes leave then Leave has won?
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
I have already said that Marx would have found authoritarian, totalitarian, state communism quite odious, and even more so since it was committed in his name.
Admittedly, capitalism is a more efficient way of sharing wealth than totalitarian communism. All I am trying to say, is that there will be far more efficient ways to share utility in the future- and these, IMHO, will be more Marxist and equitable in design.
can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net.... From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
The fact that Cameron and Osborne continue to front REMAIN, makes me wonder if they are actually looking at the polling? In GE 2010 Conservative campaign it has been reported that there was a shortage of internal polling to test the ideas and slogans etc.
Where are the other frontbenchers? May used Brokenshire as a human shield over the immigration stats and been totally invisible, Fallon was on once the other day. I saw Hammond being very tepid once too.
Given the awful personal polling Osborne and Cameron are clocking up - this whole media strategy truly perplexes me.
I think there’s been one meeting per side in this area; there are a three or four posters for Leave and a few Reamain leaflets used as impromptu pasters in windows.
And I’ve seen and heard no evidence of any canvassing. For either side.
I agree with TSE that it's a problem - unless Remain deliberately give Labour some more space, a lot of Labour voters may well not bother, That said, the London Labour machine, morale boosted by the Khan result, is whirring away. Intense Remain activity at Hampstead Heath at lunchtime - huge stand outside the station, canvass teams fanning out, leafleters trying to persuade the coffee-drinkers in the numerous pavement cafes around there. We had a big leaflet push in my Holloway patch this afternoon, and more posters are starting to appear in windows across the area. But outside London, not nearly so much, I think.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
It's positively stupid, especially when said Cameron has already said he's standing down.
Mr. Tyson, I was responding (with the feast of cabbage) to your point about those who voted Conservative being less than pleased with Cameron's antics.
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
Pff, I say, PFFFF!
Golly. I've the windows open and sat in my undies down here in Eastbourne.
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
What about Wales overall if Wales votes leave then Leave has won?
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
The key swing regions are likely to be the NorthWest and SouthEast not Wales
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
Sorry to hear of your experience, Mr Cole, and I hope that the fat got pulled out of the fire in time. I am, however, not surprised that your GP fecked up - it has happened to several people I know, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I have a theory that one of the big causes of health inequality in this country is nothing to do with lifestyle or relative poverty. It is because poorer people tend to be less well-educated, less self-confident and so more inclined to accept what their doctor says as gospel. I am certain I would have been dead nearly twenty years ago if I had passively listened to the specialist, the specialist FFS, when my kidneys went wonky. I remember the interview well, it was only after I told him he was talking out of his arse and that things were not proceeding well that he changed tack and treatment that I began to recover. I have had to do something similar with my current young GP too.
Very best wishes, Old King Cole.
Agree with Hurst - authoritarian GPs who won't reconsider in the face of evidence are a serious issue. Politeness is a problem too. My very mild-mannered father was mis-prescribed a medicine by a factor of 10, and it was only after weeks of reporting a constant haze that the GP admitted that he'd written 60 mg when he meant 6 mg. Another relative was taken off her anti-depressant medicine and put on another, and the GP refused to reconsider for months even after she went into a deep depression and lost her job. (He was eventually struck off after the NoW's fake sheik persuaded him to supply heroin for money.) In both cases, the GPs had pleasant bedside manners and the patients - who were feeling rotten anyway - didn't like to be insistent that something was terribly wrong.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
Labour voters are not Labour members. They generally understand Corbyn Labour is unelectable. Therefore who leads the Tories is important. Four more years and then some of even more right wing government is not an attractive option.
I have to go along with several other PBers in congratulating Roger on his latest well written thread ..... most interesting as well as being entertaining.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
That was a major WTF moment. Leader of the Tories arguing we need to stay in the EU to protect us from the Tories.
Mr. White, I can confirm my name is not Horst [main character of Bane of Souls and the chap on the cover].
More seriously, no. It's a pen name. Or is it? [Yes. It is].
Edited extra bit: shade under the weather. To clarify in a non-arsish way: Thaddeus White is indeed my pen name. Neither that nor Morris Dancer is my real name.
can confirm the government's propaganda leaflet is a very slow burner
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
One kindly posted a pix of his member sliced into small pieces.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
Pff, I say, PFFFF!
London has gone soft.
Of course it has. Stuffed full of Remainers. They may not ALL be c*nts as SeanT has opined, but Remainers certainly seem to be the sort of risk-averse safety-first do-what-Nanny-says types who are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.... Hyaenodon gigas that have settled for being raccoons...
Mr. White, all that is certain is that the surname White is indicative of excellent wit, and people of all political hues would be well-advised to buy books by such a man.
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
What about Wales overall if Wales votes leave then Leave has won?
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
Hamilton has already got egg on his face with just about his first speech in the Assembly which came over as very sexist. Frankly UKIP are getting votes here despite themselves. Ferrets and sacks doesn't come near the impression they've given.
Does that work both ways Benedict? I think I work about 2 hours- not manual- a month and get very nicely rewarded thank you very much. And even doing that 2 hours is tough for me because I'd rather do other stuff like post here.
I think I read somewhere that it would take about 100k for Bill Gates to take a few seconds to pick it up off the road. If it was any less it wouldn't be worth his effort.
Capitalism is really unfair, it really is. Granted and accepted, we needed something that inspired a bit of competition to get humanity out of poverty, and get us somewhere, but capitalism will soon reach it's sell by date, and us humans will figure out something else to spread utility more efficiently.
What about mine in response...that Marxism really is a concept that was much too progressive and modern for 20th century politics, and will come to fruition when humanity has developed a little more.
The concepts of inequality, hedonistic consumerism and capitalism will become redundant as humans realise that we are equal, have equal needs and wants, are compassionate, and collective.
Academic support for my longstanding contention that Labour are an idea whose time has gone
Indeed. If we don't exterminate ourselves in the meantime.
The problem with Marxist analysis is that its wrong.
People don't put equal effort in if they get the same out regardless.
Life is unfair no matter which way you look at it.
The fact that you are rewarded so handsomely for so little says more about either those that reward you, or your skills.
As for Bill Gates, it appears he really is worth that much, though I doubt he would let on if you bumped into him in the street. Alan Winner on the other hand....
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
What about Wales overall if Wales votes leave then Leave has won?
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
Hamilton has already got egg on his face with just about his first speech in the Assembly which came over as very sexist. Frankly UKIP are getting votes here despite themselves. Ferrets and sacks doesn't come near the impression they've given.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Plus the Antiques Roadshow, which I could see topping the ratings after a few weeks in that slot once the new Top Gear novelty value wears off
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
Alternatively, Mr Mark, they just think that they can do whatever they like and get away with it.
After all, that is what they did in the general election a year ago, and they still haven`t paid the price.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Why are Top Gear fans so desperate to let it be known they hate the new show. Is it because they want Clarkson back? It feels like they couldn't wait for the first episode so they could slag it off.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
On one level, it was highly flammable - when people realised that Cameron and Osborne (and it is them) had put £9m of taxpayers banknotes under one corner of the table football, so the ball kept rolling away from Remain's goal and into the Leave net....
From what I have been hearing, people REALLY did not like that. And what is ultra-stupid is that for many, it will rob a narrow Remain win of any legitimacy. All I can think is that they must have been seeing some VERY BAD INTERNAL POLLING....
Alternatively, Mr Mark, they just think that they can do whatever they like and get away with it.
After all, that is what they did in the general election a year ago, and they still haven`t paid the price.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Plus the Antiques Roadshow, which I could see topping the ratings after a few weeks in that slot once the new Top Gear novelty value wears off
Antiques Roadshow was a repeat so I imagine would have caused some to switch over to Top Gear.
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
Sorry to hear of your experience, Mr Cole, and I hope that the fat got pulled out of the fire in time. I am, however, not surprised that your GP fecked up - it has happened to several people I know, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I have a theory that one of the big causes of health inequality in this country is nothing to do with lifestyle or relative poverty. It is because poorer people tend to be less well-educated, less self-confident and so more inclined to accept what their doctor says as gospel. I am certain I would have been dead nearly twenty years ago if I had passively listened to the specialist, the specialist FFS, when my kidneys went wonky. I remember the interview well, it was only after I told him he was talking out of his arse and that things were not proceeding well that he changed tack and treatment that I began to recover. I have had to do something similar with my current young GP too.
I fear that is precisely the case. It's why we need to get a public school attitude of self confidence in every school in the land, so that people take themselves as a reasonable authority and don't blindly follow others.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
And if it were true that it was such a hit, he wouldn't be SHOUTING it. IIRC you posted a linky to a market research firm showing 75% negative response on Twitter.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Plus the Antiques Roadshow, which I could see topping the ratings after a few weeks in that slot once the new Top Gear novelty value wears off
Antiques Roadshow was a repeat so I imagine would have caused some to switch over to Top Gear.
Perhaps, whether having seen the first episode they switch over next week too is debateable
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
Sorry to hear of your experience, Mr Cole, and I hope that the fat got pulled out of the fire in time. I am, however, not surprised that your GP fecked up - it has happened to several people I know, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I have a theory that one of the big causes of health inequality in this country is nothing to do with lifestyle or relative poverty. It is because poorer people tend to be less well-educated, less self-confident and so more inclined to accept what their doctor says as gospel. I am certain I would have been dead nearly twenty years ago if I had passively listened to the specialist, the specialist FFS, when my kidneys went wonky. I remember the interview well, it was only after I told him he was talking out of his arse and that things were not proceeding well that he changed tack and treatment that I began to recover. I have had to do something similar with my current young GP too.
I fear that is precisely the case. It's why we need to get a public school attitude of self confidence in every school in the land, so that people take themselves as a reasonable authority and don't blindly follow others.
However my current GP is very good.
Most of my work focus these days is on safety (biological). Assertiveness of all team members, especially the most junior, is a sine qua non.
Of all subject not taught in schools, public speaking, effective listening and assertiveness are the ones I think the absence of which most limit the effectiveness of graduates.
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
Pff, I say, PFFFF!
London has gone soft.
Of course it has. Stuffed full of Remainers. They may not ALL be c*nts as SeanT has opined, but Remainers certainly seem to be the sort of risk-averse safety-first do-what-Nanny-says types who are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.... Hyaenodon gigas that have settled for being raccoons...
Raccoons strike me as a lot more daring and entrepreneurial. Leavers aren't keen on being domesticated, Remainers seem a trifle too keen on it as a way of life.
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
Plus the Antiques Roadshow, which I could see topping the ratings after a few weeks in that slot once the new Top Gear novelty value wears off
Antiques Roadshow was a repeat so I imagine would have caused some to switch over to Top Gear.
Does that work both ways Benedict? I think I work about 2 hours- not manual- a month and get very nicely rewarded thank you very much. And even doing that 2 hours is tough for me because I'd rather do other stuff like post here.
I think I read somewhere that it would take about 100k for Bill Gates to take a few seconds to pick it up off the road. If it was any less it wouldn't be worth his effort.
Capitalism is really unfair, it really is. Granted and accepted, we needed something that inspired a bit of competition to get humanity out of poverty, and get us somewhere, but capitalism will soon reach it's sell by date, and us humans will figure out something else to spread utility more efficiently.
What about mine in response...that Marxism really is a concept that was much too progressive and modern for 20th century politics, and will come to fruition when humanity has developed a little more.
The concepts of inequality, hedonistic consumerism and capitalism will become redundant as humans realise that we are equal, have equal needs and wants, are compassionate, and collective.
Academic support for my longstanding contention that Labour are an idea whose time has gone
Indeed. If we don't exterminate ourselves in the meantime.
The problem with Marxist analysis is that its wrong.
People don't put equal effort in if they get the same out regardless.
Life is unfair no matter which way you look at it.
The fact that you are rewarded so handsomely for so little says more about either those that reward you, or your skills.
As for Bill Gates, it appears he really is worth that much, though I doubt he would let on if you bumped into him in the street. Alan Winner on the other hand....
Bill Gates also spends much of his time running a huge charitable foundation
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
Actually, now that I have just found out that Plato sleeps with 30 cats around makes me like her so much more. Someone who can show such compassion with our furry mammalian comrades is alright by me, even though she might have a thing for Donald Trump.
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
Pff, I say, PFFFF!
London has gone soft.
Of course it has. Stuffed full of Remainers. They may not ALL be c*nts as SeanT has opined, but Remainers certainly seem to be the sort of risk-averse safety-first do-what-Nanny-says types who are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.... Hyaenodon gigas that have settled for being raccoons...
Raccoons strike me as a lot more daring and entrepreneurial. Leavers aren't keen on being domesticated, Remainers seem a trifle too keen on it as a way of life.
There are over 1 million raccoons in Germany and they are spreading fast.
Mr. White, all that is certain is that the surname White is indicative of excellent wit, and people of all political hues would be well-advised to buy books by such a man.
I see. Or perhaps read a blog? I know of one written by a Mr White here:
I think very, very few people will vote in the referendum according to whether or not they want Cameron to remain PM etc. Most people will cast their vote according to whether they want to stay in the EU or not. And in simple terms it comes down to which one of fears about immigration (leave) or fears about the economy (remain) has priority in a voter's mind. Fwiw, I think turnover will be higher than most people expect and that will probably favour Remain.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
Weak. It's 64 degrees in Camden Town currently, according to my Met Office app.
It sure doesn't feel like it. Gusty wind, no sun at all, rain to come, and people walking down my street in thick coats and jumpers. A girl just went past wrapped in an enormous scarf.
Pff, I say, PFFFF!
London has gone soft.
Of course it has. Stuffed full of Remainers. They may not ALL be c*nts as SeanT has opined, but Remainers certainly seem to be the sort of risk-averse safety-first do-what-Nanny-says types who are an evolutionary cul-de-sac.... Hyaenodon gigas that have settled for being raccoons...
It's Leaver SeanT who's turned his heating on. At the end of May. When it's 64 degrees outside.
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
Sorry to hear of your experience, Mr Cole, and I hope that the fat got pulled out of the fire in time. I am, however, not surprised that your GP fecked up - it has happened to several people I know, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I have a theory that one of the big causes of health inequality in this country is nothing to do with lifestyle or relative poverty. It is because poorer people tend to be less well-educated, less self-confident and so more inclined to accept what their doctor says as gospel. I am certain I would have been dead nearly twenty years ago if I had passively listened to the specialist, the specialist FFS, when my kidneys went wonky. I remember the interview well, it was only after I told him he was talking out of his arse and that things were not proceeding well that he changed tack and treatment that I began to recover. I have had to do something similar with my current young GP too.
I fear that is precisely the case. It's why we need to get a public school attitude of self confidence in every school in the land, so that people take themselves as a reasonable authority and don't blindly follow others.
However my current GP is very good.
Most of my work focus these days is on safety (biological). Assertiveness of all team members, especially the most junior, is a sine qua non.
Of all subject not taught in schools, public speaking, effective listening and assertiveness are the ones I think the absence of which most limit the effectiveness of graduates.
Granted. On the other hand I have no problem letting people know what I think
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
Labour have their own preoccupations, such as the Chakrabati Inquiry into islamophobia.
Labour appears to be doing more self-harm than good on that subject. When a senior member is let off after saying Jews were the financiers of the slave trade... and other similar things.
It's just so WTF that I can't begin to understand it.
The polls say that both Trump and Clinton suffer big negatives and low approval ratings. This election might come down to a question of who voters loathe the least.
My totally unscientific, random, non-adjusted focus group at Rolling Thunder suggests that might well be the case.
In a country of 320 million people, how did it come down to such an unappetising menu choice?
Do you want the dish with the listeria or the salmonella?
Mr. White, I am pleased your blog recognises the clearly independent IMF's conclusion that leaving the EU will cause dragons to infest Britain and eat everyone who does not worship them.
Labour have their own preoccupations, such as the Chakrabati Inquiry into islamophobia.
Labour appears to be doing more self-harm than good on that subject. When a senior member is let off after saying Jews were the financiers of the slave trade... and other similar things.
It's just so WTF that I can't begin to understand it.
2016 seems to be a year of awful strain and stress for four political parties: the Democrats, the Republicans, Labour, and the Conservatives .... at least the Conservatives usually are up for getting rid of an unwaanted or divisive leader.
There’s.... or was when I was concerned ..... a big debate about this in medicine. One would expect that consultants and GP's would make decisions in the manner which you suggest; in fact persauding some at least of the value of Evidence Based Medicine as opposed to personal experience was extremely difficult.
Indeed my then GP failed to diagnose my cancer on the grounds of his personal experience and was most reluctant to send me for investigation. That was 5 years ago admittedly and I will know in a week or so when the operation and medication which wiser heads recommended have worked.
Sorry to hear of your experience, Mr Cole, and I hope that the fat got pulled out of the fire in time. I am, however, not surprised that your GP fecked up - it has happened to several people I know, sometimes with fatal consequences.
I have a theory that one of the big causes of health inequality in this country is nothing to do with lifestyle or relative poverty. It is because poorer people tend to be less well-educated, less self-confident and so more inclined to accept what their doctor says as gospel. I am certain I would have been dead nearly twenty years ago if I had passively listened to the specialist, the specialist FFS, when my kidneys went wonky. I remember the interview well, it was only after I told him he was talking out of his arse and that things were not proceeding well that he changed tack and treatment that I began to recover. I have had to do something similar with my current young GP too.
I fear that is precisely the case. It's why we need to get a public school attitude of self confidence in every school in the land, so that people take themselves as a reasonable authority and don't blindly follow others.
However my current GP is very good.
The Press and this government are taking on public school education as something socially undesirable. If you want to have leaders in all sections of society you have to provide the foundations for self confidence. Avoiding arrogance, of course.
"Immigration, @vote_leave's strongest issue hasn't featured heavily so far,"
Oh really? How did the esteemed academics separate immigration from business, economy, employment, housing and security? And what on earth is "referendum conduct" doing on the list?
This kind of "research" on "issues" is such crap, hiding crappy quality under quantitative conclisions.
Only put things on a list that are conceptually parallel to each other - that's basic intellectual method.
Sorry comrade Morris- I thought you were jousting with me on collective Marxist dialectics and the inability of communism to deliver diversity.
Since I am not a Tory, I do not understand what they expected with a Tory victory. But, there were some some obvious signs with the Tory manifesto, which I have to say was largely indistinguishable from Mr Milibands. Most probably, if Labour had won, your same point would have been made by Labour attendees at said banquet.
Mr. Tyson, I was responding (with the feast of cabbage) to your point about those who voted Conservative being less than pleased with Cameron's antics.
Labour have their own preoccupations, such as the Chakrabati Inquiry into islamophobia.
Labour appears to be doing more self-harm than good on that subject. When a senior member is let off after saying Jews were the financiers of the slave trade... and other similar things.
It's just so WTF that I can't begin to understand it.
Labour is now led by people who have spent years sharing platforms with anti-Semites without ever challenging them; while members are clearly relaxed about the toxic filth spouted by the likes of Jackie Walker. It is sickening, but totally unsurprising.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
There are quite a few in my area manufacturing which just get dumped on us, try CE marking and ask what value it adds to have to employ a consultant to get you through it. Especially if you are a small company.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
There are quite a few in my area manufacturing which just get dumped on us, try CE marking and ask what value it adds to have to employ a consultant to get you through it. Especially if you are a small company.
I would not count on that going post-Brexit. It won't for any manufacturer that exports to the EEA.
I think very, very few people will vote in the referendum according to whether or not they want Cameron to remain PM etc. Most people will cast their vote according to whether they want to stay in the EU or not. And in simple terms it comes down to which one of fears about immigration (leave) or fears about the economy (remain) has priority in a voter's mind. Fwiw, I think turnover will be higher than most people expect and that will probably favour Remain.
It is only curious why so many Leavers see it as being any more complicated or less straightforward than that.
No one has a huge spreadsheet at home working out the implications for, say, a Fallon leadership and the future of the DUP if they vote one way or another.
They will vote Leave if they want to leave the EU and Remain if they want to stay. Broadly for the reasons you state.
The EU is being conflated with immigration in general, but the general problem is one of a political elite whose experience of immigration doesn't extend to fighting for an £8 per hour job, a council house, a decent school and prompt treatment at the GP/A and E etc.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory gov tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
There are quite a few in my area manufacturing which just get dumped on us, try CE marking and ask what value it adds to have to employ a consultant to get you through it. Especially if you are a small company.
I would not count on that going post-Brexit. It won't for any manufacturer that exports to the EEA.
Maybe maybe not, but those people who dont sell to the EU won't have to bother with it.
Why not try high speed broadband which is 3 years late getting in to my village and where BT, my parish coucillor, my district councillor and my county councillor stood in front of our village to say approval by EU competition authorities was one of the main hold ups.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
There are quite a few in my area manufacturing which just get dumped on us, try CE marking and ask what value it adds to have to employ a consultant to get you through it. Especially if you are a small company.
I would not count on that going post-Brexit. It won't for any manufacturer that exports to the EEA.
Newsagents, however, will finally be free of the stultifying regulatory regime of the EU if we leave.
Glorious in Wales and 21c. Have had sun hat on most of day and just moved chair into the shade as was too warm. Just sayin...
How do think places like Rhondda will vote, plaid won the assembley seat but Plaid are a pro E.U party.
Hmm. I'm in Cardiff half a world away from the Rhondda (!). It's a tricky one to call really. There's a lot of automatic "vote what Labour says" I'm sure, and Plaid are very pro Remain. Also there's a lot if European money spent (compared to wealthier bits of the UK). On the other hand immigration I doubt will play well and P Talbot is a localish known unknown in the mix. I'm guessing slightly Remain on a low turnout.
What about Wales overall if Wales votes leave then Leave has won?
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
Hamilton has already got egg on his face with just about his first speech in the Assembly which came over as very sexist. Frankly UKIP are getting votes here despite themselves. Ferrets and sacks doesn't come near the impression they've given.
The thread header is a variation on the theme I've been running for weeks, its ambivalent labour voters who will abstain and hand it to Leave. Cameron is relying on people who dislike him to save his political career. Actually make them elongate his political career, he's finished regardless, a win for Remain just keeps him in office a while longer.
Tory Remainers are left using the argument that Labour voters should vote Remain to keep Cameron in a job because most of their Tory colleagues who might replace him are nastier. Not the greatest message.
The most perplexing for me is Cameron arguing we need the EU to protect us from a Tory HMG on workers' rights.
WTF?
Just tells you he knows he's toast if Leave wins and that his replacement will seek to hammer British workers.
Could a Tory govt hammer british workers any harder than the last Labour one ?]
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
Well, the current Tory government has based its entire economic and fiscal policy on ongoing high levels of immigration, as well as increased private borrowing, while doing nothing to rebalance the economy or to help manufacturing - so maybe not worse, but certainly not any better. And the Tory Leavers are all signed up to that and to further reductions in the power of trade unions. They also want to leave the EU to cut red tape. I wonder what that could mean apart from reducing the statutory rights of employees.
It could mean lots of things.
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
So what are the big areas of red tape that can be cut outside of labour law?
There are quite a few in my area manufacturing which just get dumped on us, try CE marking and ask what value it adds to have to employ a consultant to get you through it. Especially if you are a small company.
I would not count on that going post-Brexit. It won't for any manufacturer that exports to the EEA.
Comments
In the above scenario, the only people complaining will be Leavers lying and saying they voted Remain.
Whatever else, Cameron has alienated a big chunk of his natural supporters totally unnecessarily.
Well I do. Not so much for what it is but for what it says about our prime minister.
Could Hamilton convince Wales to vote leave? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. So sad ;(
I have already said that Marx would have found authoritarian, totalitarian, state communism quite odious, and even more so since it was committed in his name.
Admittedly, capitalism is a more efficient way of sharing wealth than totalitarian communism. All I am trying to say, is that there will be far more efficient ways to share utility in the future- and these, IMHO, will be more Marxist and equitable in design.
Given the awful personal polling Osborne and Cameron are clocking up - this whole media strategy truly perplexes me.
WTF?
Agree with Hurst - authoritarian GPs who won't reconsider in the face of evidence are a serious issue. Politeness is a problem too. My very mild-mannered father was mis-prescribed a medicine by a factor of 10, and it was only after weeks of reporting a constant haze that the GP admitted that he'd written 60 mg when he meant 6 mg. Another relative was taken off her anti-depressant medicine and put on another, and the GP refused to reconsider for months even after she went into a deep depression and lost her job. (He was eventually struck off after the NoW's fake sheik persuaded him to supply heroin for money.) In both cases, the GPs had pleasant bedside manners and the patients - who were feeling rotten anyway - didn't like to be insistent that something was terribly wrong.
https://twitter.com/achrisevans/status/737278291346903041
FACT...a million less viewers than last episode of Top Gear...FACT..3 million less than usual figures for old Top Gear..FACT...he said his new show would not be considered a success if it is not watched by more than 5million viewers. ..(not) FACT...audience share percentage because up against some crappy awards show.
I gave him an enormous benefit of the doubt during that whole charade - boy do I feel stupid. He's burned as far as I'm concerned.
The fact that you are rewarded so handsomely for so little says more about either those that reward you, or your skills.
As for Bill Gates, it appears he really is worth that much, though I doubt he would let on if you bumped into him in the street. Alan Winner on the other hand....
Stagnating wages, no house building, wrecked pensions, destruction of manufacturing, mass immigration and the biggest recession ever. Hard to top that frankly.
After all, that is what they did in the general election a year ago, and they still haven`t paid the price.
However my current GP is very good.
That reflects the views I'm seeing elsewhere.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result
Of all subject not taught in schools, public speaking, effective listening and assertiveness are the ones I think the absence of which most limit the effectiveness of graduates.
So it's...
Antiques Roadshow vs Antique Road Show
http://www.high50.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Economist_I-never-read-The-Economist-620.jpg
http://aconservatives.blogspot.co.uk/
EU legislation isn't mostly about Labour law.
And yes the current govt is simply continuing Labours polices at a slower rate which is why they have a problem with their traditional supporters
It's just so WTF that I can't begin to understand it.
Circus cover February 1970 - “Will They Survive the 70s” https://t.co/KDg80ei3My
This election might come down to a question of who voters loathe the least.
My totally unscientific, random, non-adjusted focus group at Rolling Thunder suggests that might well be the case.
In a country of 320 million people, how did it come down to such an unappetising menu choice?
Do you want the dish with the listeria or the salmonella?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36412803
'I am ashamed of my politicians it's gone our way of life has gone our communities have been decimated,' he said.
"No one asked me. No one asked my friends, to be forced out of our area. no one asked for our wages to go down. We've just had it dumped upon us,"
Listen as he lets rip. "
http://www.lbc.co.uk/andrew-taken-aback-by-callers-anti-eu-rant-131412
Oh really? How did the esteemed academics separate immigration from business, economy, employment, housing and security? And what on earth is "referendum conduct" doing on the list?
This kind of "research" on "issues" is such crap, hiding crappy quality under quantitative conclisions.
Only put things on a list that are conceptually parallel to each other - that's basic intellectual method.
Since I am not a Tory, I do not understand what they expected with a Tory victory. But, there were some some obvious signs with the Tory manifesto, which I have to say was largely indistinguishable from Mr Milibands. Most probably, if Labour had won, your same point would have been made by Labour attendees at said banquet.
No one has a huge spreadsheet at home working out the implications for, say, a Fallon leadership and the future of the DUP if they vote one way or another.
They will vote Leave if they want to leave the EU and Remain if they want to stay. Broadly for the reasons you state.
Why not try high speed broadband which is 3 years late getting in to my village and where BT, my parish coucillor, my district councillor and my county councillor stood in front of our village to say approval by EU competition authorities was one of the main hold ups.
I suspect this is true as Osborne denied it.
"who will be allowed to vote in the Dem primary for the first time in SD"
Sanders 64%
Clinton 33 https://t.co/1WDh63tloB
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/07/craft-cider-eu-tax-threat
great a world of fking magners and stella artois.