the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Don't be a dick.
I had this very argument with XXXX YYYY sorry, Snowflake, on this very site, maybe 7 years ago.
And I got banned two years ago for mentioning in passing the userid of another public figure who allegedly once posted here...
MODS, can we have clarity, please? [Not meant to be an invitation to ban Sean]
My family too will be going "remain". There is zero, and I mean zero enthusiasm though. I can understand people voting remain, or even leave but I simply can't understand the massive amounts of enthusiasm from certain "Remainers" here.
I don't mind Remainers who believe in the whole European Project, I disagree with them but at least their support for Remain makes sense. What I can not fathom are the mostly Tory Remainers who seem to think Cameron has got a good deal, and that the EU will either change, or at least not drag us along into further integration. I think those Remainers are completely crackers. If you don't want "more EU" you really do have to vote Leave.
BBC and ITV news horrible for Remain. Immigration is going to kill them.
You still think LEAVE will win?
I really don't know. I think it's going to be very, very close. Remain just have no counter to the immigration line from Leave. What might save the day for Remain is who is delivering the message and the stridency.
News at Ten had an item about sharia courts. The imam said, sure, Muslim women were perfectly within their rights to go to the civil courts. They didn't go out and drag them to the court.
All true, of course, but who thinks that the women wouldn't under pressure to go to Sharia courts from their community. Theoretical rights, but, in practice, unexercisable.
Same goes for UK sovereignty. Theoretically exists, but look at the intimidation when we try to exercise it.
BBC and ITV news horrible for Remain. Immigration is going to kill them.
You still think LEAVE will win?
I really don't know. I think it's going to be very, very close. Remain just have no counter to the immigration line from Leave. What might save the day for Remain is who is delivering the message and the stridency.
My family too will be going "remain". There is zero, and I mean zero enthusiasm though. I can understand people voting remain, or even leave but I simply can't understand the massive amounts of enthusiasm from certain "Remainers" here.
I don't mind Remainers who believe in the whole European Project, I disagree with them but at least their support for Remain makes sense. What I can not fathom are the mostly Tory Remainers who seem to think Cameron has got a good deal, and that the EU will either change, or at least not drag us along into further integration. I think those Remainers are completely crackers. If you don't want "more EU" you really do have to vote Leave.
Dave would have been better off not bothering with the deal as we have now lost yet another veto thanks to his shoddy negotiating skills.
Who is more qualified to say what working-class people want? MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories? Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
No that's your money\poverty argument.
Which personally I think is nonsense.
It's about a lot more than money. Free movement and the right to live anywhere in the EU I like is a very positive thing in my view. But if you want to reduce poverty then money is pretty important. On a personal level Brexit will make no difference at all to me financially.
@hugorifkind: The Brexit immigration argument is such bullshit. Net immigration is 330,000 a year, which sounds a lot. The govt target is 100,000. But..
@hugorifkind: ...non-EU immigration alone is 150,000. That's stuff we control, utterly, like the Brexiteers want. And it's still waay over target. Because
@hugorifkind: ...there's an inevitable level we need and want and can control, and there will be, EU or otherwise. Rant ends.
I suspect you didn't mean it like it read to be fair.
If you Leavers actually read what I say and not imagine what you think I said, I've said in the past it's a mistake to say lower educated people are thick.
Anyone over 65 probably didn't go to university because it wasn't government policy to send 50% of school leavers to uni.
News at Ten had an item about sharia courts. The imam said, sure, Muslim women were perfectly within their rights to go to the civil courts. They didn't go out and drag them to the court.
All true, of course, but who thinks that the women wouldn't under pressure to go to Sharia courts from their community. Theoretical rights, but, in practice, unexercisable.
Do we have evidence? Maybe PB WILDERS are free to look for evidence (that no Muslim women go to civil courts), but are under pressure from their PB WILDERS community not to.
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
Are your fingers still intact?
I always pack a steel ruler for canvassing. Great for shoving leaflets through a letter box
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yep, I don't doubt that is the case for you. And I imagine on the Remain side there are people prepared to make personal sacrifices for a federal Europe.
@hugorifkind: The Brexit immigration argument is such bullshit. Net immigration is 330,000 a year, which sounds a lot. The govt target is 100,000. But..
@hugorifkind: ...non-EU immigration alone is 150,000. That's stuff we control, utterly, like the Brexiteers want. And it's still waay over target. Because
@hugorifkind: ...there's an inevitable level we need and want and can control, and there will be, EU or otherwise. Rant ends.
So the government / Cameron / Osborne are failing on that too then...
BBC and ITV news horrible for Remain. Immigration is going to kill them.
You still think LEAVE will win?
I really don't know. I think it's going to be very, very close. Remain just have no counter to the immigration line from Leave. What might save the day for Remain is who is delivering the message and the stridency.
You have consistently said this. For me I just cannot imagine a vote for REMAIN in a ratio higher than 2:1 from Labour 2015 voters. These polls finding 4:1 Labour voters in favour of REMAIN just do not seem plausible because of immigration.
Who is more qualified to say what working-class people want? MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories? Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
I should have thought the most qualified people were the the people themselves. Probably the least qualified people are those in Brussels who we cannot vote out of office, even when we think their policies with which we have to comply are harmful to us.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
No that's your money\poverty argument.
Which personally I think is nonsense.
It's about a lot more than money. Free movement and the right to live anywhere in the EU I like is a very positive thing in my view. But if you want to reduce poverty then money is pretty important. On a personal level Brexit will make no difference at all to me financially.
Yes I agree I think the money argument is largely erroneous, we'll fair quite all right in whichever scenario. But it's not the argument Remainis pushing.
As for the constraints on borders I think youre largely worrying about theoretical problems, Americans and other nations live and work across the EU, There;s a bit more admin but not much more than for EU citizens.
Who is more qualified to say what working-class people want? MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories? Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
I should have thought the most qualified people were the the people themselves. Probably the least qualified people are those in Brussels who we cannot vote out of office, even when we think their policies with which we have to comply are harmful to us.
Who is more qualified to say what working-class people want? MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories? Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
Look at the collapse in your white working class vote. Its already happened in Scotland. It is now happening in England and Wales. This presages the end of your party. By all means carry on and ignore it. PLEASE.
LOL SNP as anti-immigrant backlash. Marrant. Put it in your next work of fiction. Not my party, I don't care about Corbyn and the other Venezuela lovers. Just think it is odd for PB Tories to support Osborne cutting taxes for the last six years, defend benefits cuts cos people don't really need working tax credits or space in their council house to live in, then pat themselves on the back for being pro-poor.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
TheScreamingEagles "So PBers who have been so exercised over my comments this morning will be lining up to condemn this? Oh wait, silence" (followed by some canvassing figures from Godfrey/UKIP)
What were you saying this morning that people took issue with?
I suspect you didn't mean it like it read to be fair.
If you Leavers actually read what I say and not imagine what you think I said, I've said in the past it's a mistake to say lower educated people are thick.
Anyone over 65 probably didn't go to university because it wasn't government policy to send 50% of school leavers to uni.
I should think that you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and... heh heh heh... wisdom.
- Dex in "Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones"
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yep, I don't doubt that is the case for you. And I imagine on the Remain side there are people prepared to make personal sacrifices for a federal Europe.
They are the ones I have any real admiration for. Those who honestly believe in a federal Europe and are open about it. The ones I detest are those who try to pretend it is not where the EU is going even though it is obvious that is the aim.
I suspect you didn't mean it like it read to be fair.
If you Leavers actually read what I say and not imagine what you think I said, I've said in the past it's a mistake to say lower educated people are thick.
Anyone over 65 probably didn't go to university because it wasn't government policy to send 50% of school leavers to uni.
I should think that you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and... heh heh heh... wisdom.
- Dex in "Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones"
Who is more qualified to say what working-class people want? MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories? Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
Look at the collapse in your white working class vote. Its already happened in Scotland. It is now happening in England and Wales. This presages the end of your party. By all means carry on and ignore it. PLEASE.
LOL SNP as anti-immigrant backlash. Marrant. Put it in your next work of fiction. Not my party, I don't care about Corbyn and the other Venezuela lovers. Just think it is odd for PB Tories to support Osborne cutting taxes for the last six years, defend benefits cuts cos people don't really need working tax credits or space in their council house to live in, then pat themselves on the back for being pro-poor.
Boris and the Leave Tory ministers are fully signed up to a fiscal and economic strategy dependent on high levels of immigration. If they now reject the Osborne plan they should say so and explain what they will do instead.
I suspect you didn't mean it like it read to be fair.
If you Leavers actually read what I say and not imagine what you think I said, I've said in the past it's a mistake to say lower educated people are thick.
Anyone over 65 probably didn't go to university because it wasn't government policy to send 50% of school leavers to uni.
Now catching up on what you are talking about.
I would suspect that it is considerably lower than that in age terms. I went to University in the early/mid 80s and even then I believe it was less than 10% who went. So basically the vast majority of people over 45-50 will not have gone to university because it simply wasn't what most people did before the early 90s.
News at Ten had an item about sharia courts. The imam said, sure, Muslim women were perfectly within their rights to go to the civil courts. They didn't go out and drag them to the court.
All true, of course, but who thinks that the women wouldn't under pressure to go to Sharia courts from their community. Theoretical rights, but, in practice, unexercisable.
Do we have evidence? Maybe PB WILDERS are free to look for evidence (that no Muslim women go to civil courts), but are under pressure from their PB WILDERS community not to.
The item on News at Ten was about a Home Office investigation into precisely that issue.
But keep on slandering/misrepresenting your opponents rather than confronting the problem.
Darth Gideon (aka Chancellor Osborne): You are fulfilling your destiny, TSE. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Daft Side of the Force. There's no turning back now.
TSE: I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Theresa's political career. I can't live without her. If she resigns, I don't know what I will do.
Darth Gideon: To cheat political osbcurity is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal AV Threads!
TSE: I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the REMAIN Campaign.
Darth Gideon: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, TSE. A powerful REMAINER you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Eagles.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
Be nice to me for the next three weeks, I'm going to need constant adoration from PBers during my stint as guest editor, and as usual Mike's left me in charge, during a quiet period in UK politics, and I'll be struggling for thread ideas.
I've said it before, but am I the only one who thinks David Davis is a rather good performer? Leaving aside his "right-wing" politics (though I think even that is overstated), he has quite a reassuring demeanour IMO: reasonable, calm, normal-sounding, even a bit John Major-ish, rather than the "passion" (read: hysterical ranting) that some Leavers often lapse into.
Darth Gideon (aka Chancellor Osborne): You are fulfilling your destiny, TSE. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Daft Side of the Force. There's no turning back now.
TSE: I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Theresa's political career. I can't live without her. If she resigns, I don't know what I will do.
Darth Gideon: To cheat political osbcurity is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal AV Threads!
TSE: I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the REMAIN Campaign.
Darth Gideon: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, TSE. A powerful REMAINER you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Eagles.
TSE: Thank you... my Master.
Darth Gideon: Lord Eagles... rise.
Young Streetwalker has gone to the dark side, He is now Darth Eagles, we will oinly see him again as he dies and we can remove his Sith helmet to reveal Mr Potatohead,
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
Be nice to me for the next three weeks, I'm going to need constant adoration from PBers during my stint as guest editor, and as usual Mike's left me in charge, during a quiet period in UK politics, and I'll be struggling for thread ideas.
Have an Indyref one and invite James, Pork and Stuart for old time sake.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
I am not sure that because you live in what is, currently, a safe Conservative seat that democracy doesn't matter is really a valid argument.
What's makes me want to laugh/cry with these record immigration numbers is useless politicians like Tim farron and Yvette cooper wanting record asylum numbers brought here..
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will merely deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
I'm sorry my view is until there;s a peasants revolt such as Brexit nothing will change. If you want change you have to start breaking the mould, if there;s no external shock things will go on as usual.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
I am not sure that because you live in what is, currently, a safe Conservative seat that democracy doesn't matter is really a valid argument.
I've said it before, but am I the only one who thinks David Davis is a rather good performer? Leaving aside his "right-wing" politics (though I think even that is overstated), he has quite a reassuring demeanour IMO: reasonable, calm, normal-sounding, even a bit John Major-ish, rather than the "passion" (read: hysterical ranting) that some Leavers often lapse into.
David Davis lost his head when he resigned and ran for re-election.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
I'm sorry my view is until there;s a peasants revolt such as Brexit nothing will change. If you want change you have to start breaking the mould, if there;s no external shock things will go on as usual.
A revolt led by right wing Tories and billionaires is not going to change anything. All we'll end up with after Brexit is an even more right wing Tory government than we have now.
What's makes me want to laugh/cry with these record immigration numbers is useless politicians like Tim farron and Yvette cooper wanting record asylum numbers brought here..
I presume Chez Cooper-Balls still hasn't taken any Syrian Refugees....
Warm-up man: "Being Secretary of State was a kind of try-out for Hillary as President. In 2009 no-one had ever heard of ISIS. Fast-forward past 4 years of Clinton as SoS, and now ISIS seem to control the whole of the Middle East!"
What's makes me want to laugh/cry with these record immigration numbers is useless politicians like Tim farron and Yvette cooper wanting record asylum numbers brought here..
I presume Chez Cooper-Balls still hasn't taken any Syrian Refugees....
The proposal was not that you should put a refugee in your house.
It's such an awful argument. "Unless you give away everything you own, don't ask for anything at all from me."
Those of us who have been around this site for a few years will remember the original character, when he posted under his original name. Witty, flamboyant, occasionally naughty, but a free thinker. Then as the dark side started to take over we have witnessed his gradual decline. He passed through another screen name then to TSE and as the years rolled on he sank deeper and deeper into darkness. Now he has become, like the nazgul were for Sauron, a mere shadow wraith for Cameron and his creature Osborne. Its very sad, but Darth Eagles he has become.
What's makes me want to laugh/cry with these record immigration numbers is useless politicians like Tim farron and Yvette cooper wanting record asylum numbers brought here..
I presume Chez Cooper-Balls still hasn't taken any Syrian Refugees....
The proposal was not that you should put a refugee in your house.
It's such an awful argument. "Unless you give away everything you own, don't ask for anything at all from me."
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
I'm sorry my view is until there;s a peasants revolt such as Brexit nothing will change. If you want change you have to start breaking the mould, if there;s no external shock things will go on as usual.
A revolt led by right wing Tories and billionaires is not going to change anything. All we'll end up with after Brexit is an even more right wing Tory government than we have now.
Maybe we would but we could vote them out. How do we vote out the people in Brussels?
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
I'm sorry my view is until there;s a peasants revolt such as Brexit nothing will change. If you want change you have to start breaking the mould, if there;s no external shock things will go on as usual.
A revolt led by right wing Tories and billionaires is not going to change anything. All we'll end up with after Brexit is an even more right wing Tory government than we have now.
Maybe we would but we could vote them out. How do we vote out the people in Brussels?
SkyNews The Italian coastguard says around 4,000 people have been rescued from the Mediterranean Sea in one day https://t.co/aMxkDzpT3N
Why rescue suicidal terrorists?
Steady..
I am, perhaps the only one with clarity.
These people are prepared to throw away their own worthless lives, and their childrens', for a chance at the big time in the West. Their tactics are terroristic, because they know we are weak and stupid, and will cave in, rather than watch them drown...
We should say. "Don't come. You WILL drown, pointlessly. And we will watch, impassively."
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
Yes my position too, I'll take money hit for more contol over my own affairs.
I'll take a money hit to increase wealth redistribution. Given I live in a safe Tory seat I get no more control over anything even if we leave the EU and have full sovereignty. My vote will still be as pointless.
yes but nobodys stopping you giving directly to a cause you like, And you get tax rebates for it.
I do give. But it only works if a lot of people do it. We need to pool resources. And in our FPTP country Brexit will deliver more control to the few hundred thousand voters who already have more power than the rest of us.
I'm sorry my view is until there;s a peasants revolt such as Brexit nothing will change. If you want change you have to start breaking the mould, if there;s no external shock things will go on as usual.
A revolt led by right wing Tories and billionaires is not going to change anything. All we'll end up with after Brexit is an even more right wing Tory government than we have now.
Maybe we would but we could vote them out. How do we vote out the people in Brussels?
We have a referendum and leave.
Then let us hope that we do and once again become an independent nation state.
It's pretty poor all round. Lots of shouting and interrupting. I guess it's what happens when people feel so strongly about an issue.
I think David Davis and Caroline Lucas are doing quite well at putting their sides of the argument across in a persuasive way. Ed on the other hand has seemed a bit too indignant that anyone could possibly have a different view to him.
Steve Hilton really irks me, but I can't put my finger on why.
Comments
MODS, can we have clarity, please? [Not meant to be an invitation to ban Sean]
FPT I suspect you didn't mean it like it read to be fair.
News at Ten had an item about sharia courts. The imam said, sure, Muslim women were perfectly within their rights to go to the civil courts. They didn't go out and drag them to the court.
All true, of course, but who thinks that the women wouldn't under pressure to go to Sharia courts from their community. Theoretical rights, but, in practice, unexercisable.
Same goes for UK sovereignty. Theoretically exists, but look at the intimidation when we try to exercise it.
MPs who represent working-class constituencies or PB Tories?
Ask PB comments and the answer is that one group should be listened to, and the other group should be boiled in oil for anti-British, anti-white treason.
No that's your money\poverty argument.
Which personally I think is nonsense.
It's about a lot more than money. Free movement and the right to live anywhere in the EU I like is a very positive thing in my view. But if you want to reduce poverty then money is pretty important. On a personal level Brexit will make no difference at all to me financially.
@hugorifkind: ...non-EU immigration alone is 150,000. That's stuff we control, utterly, like the Brexiteers want. And it's still waay over target. Because
@hugorifkind: ...there's an inevitable level we need and want and can control, and there will be, EU or otherwise. Rant ends.
Anyone over 65 probably didn't go to university because it wasn't government policy to send 50% of school leavers to uni.
Maybe PB WILDERS are free to look for evidence (that no Muslim women go to civil courts), but are under pressure from their PB WILDERS community not to.
If you don't have borders, you don't have a country.
https://twitter.com/goddersbloom/status/735939664192929792
They really are going to get a horrible shock over the next few years as they realise just how gullible they have been.
Which personally I think is nonsense.
It's about a lot more than money. Free movement and the right to live anywhere in the EU I like is a very positive thing in my view. But if you want to reduce poverty then money is pretty important. On a personal level Brexit will make no difference at all to me financially.
Yes I agree I think the money argument is largely erroneous, we'll fair quite all right in whichever scenario. But it's not the argument Remainis pushing.
As for the constraints on borders I think youre largely worrying about theoretical problems, Americans and other nations live and work across the EU, There;s a bit more admin but not much more than for EU citizens.
No-one can claim they didn't know what they were voting for.
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays/status/735945214603501571
But as you know I don't have any love for UKIP or Farage, etc so I'll condemn Mr Bloom anyway!
"So PBers who have been so exercised over my comments this morning will be lining up to condemn this? Oh wait, silence" (followed by some canvassing figures from Godfrey/UKIP)
What were you saying this morning that people took issue with?
- Dex in "Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones"
Are you George Osborne by any chance.
I would suspect that it is considerably lower than that in age terms. I went to University in the early/mid 80s and even then I believe it was less than 10% who went. So basically the vast majority of people over 45-50 will not have gone to university because it simply wasn't what most people did before the early 90s.
But keep on slandering/misrepresenting your opponents rather than confronting the problem.
Darth Gideon (aka Chancellor Osborne): You are fulfilling your destiny, TSE. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Daft Side of the Force. There's no turning back now.
TSE: I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Theresa's political career. I can't live without her. If she resigns, I don't know what I will do.
Darth Gideon: To cheat political osbcurity is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal AV Threads!
TSE: I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the REMAIN Campaign.
Darth Gideon: Good. Good! The Force is strong with you, TSE. A powerful REMAINER you will become. Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Eagles.
TSE: Thank you... my Master.
Darth Gideon: Lord Eagles... rise.
Sunil and I can do that for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_1VH3DRnTA
How will he savour his victory? More conciliatory? Or does the attack proper on Clinton start here?
"I would say this", "I say to you"........why not just cut to the chase and SAY IT?
UKIP Fail.
It's such an awful argument. "Unless you give away everything you own, don't ask for anything at all from me."
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/735956535856254977
Those of us who have been around this site for a few years will remember the original character, when he posted under his original name. Witty, flamboyant, occasionally naughty, but a free thinker. Then as the dark side started to take over we have witnessed his gradual decline. He passed through another screen name then to TSE and as the years rolled on he sank deeper and deeper into darkness. Now he has become, like the nazgul were for Sauron, a mere shadow wraith for Cameron and his creature Osborne. Its very sad, but Darth Eagles he has become.
Yvette Cooper offer to house Syrian refugees
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/06/nicola-sturgeon-and-yvette-cooper-offer-to-house-syrian-refugees
http://www.lbc.co.uk/why-hasnt-yvette-cooper-taken-in-syrian-refugee-126339
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/listen-yvette-cooper-taken-to-task-over-her-refugee-pledge/
The Italian coastguard says around 4,000 people have been rescued from the Mediterranean Sea in one day https://t.co/aMxkDzpT3N
Details fo that result.
https://youtu.be/dsBO2q7NHGM
Not sure Ed is doing very well.
These people are prepared to throw away their own worthless lives, and their childrens', for a chance at the big time in the West. Their tactics are terroristic, because they know we are weak and stupid, and will cave in, rather than watch them drown...
We should say. "Don't come. You WILL drown, pointlessly. And we will watch, impassively."
Steve Hilton really irks me, but I can't put my finger on why.