By the way, Victoria Derbyshire should never be allowed to be in charge of a serious debate ever again. She is awful.
So is her daily show on BBC. She was out of her depth tonight but to be fair she only finished 30 days of chemo today so you have to admire her for that reason alone
You actually watch her show...you must be one of the couple of coach loads that do. How she got her good gigs at the BBC is a very interesting story & involved ruining the career of a far more intelligent presenter.
I absolutely do not - it drives me straight to Sky
LOL...you could always watch the fragrant jeremy kyle or the wooden Dion Dublin on homes under the hammer...who says telly has gone down hill!
I only watch news, sport and politics otherwise I spend much time with my lovely wife of 52 years. I have never watched Jeremy Kyle and have no idea who Dublin is
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
I'm sure that will be a huge consolation to someone who has lost their job.
Agree; but a degree of self-awareness is a useful life skill.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Language is less of an issue when UK employers say they will only take people who can speak Polish or Portuguese.
Does that happen to any measurable degree? Other than jobs where that skill is essential .... for example I’ve known CABx seek people who can speak those languages.
There have been occasional high profile cases in the papers over the last few years where Brits were refused jobs by companies because they could not speak the language of the majority of the rest of the workforce.
It is extremely common amongst the gangs working the fields in East Anglia and Lincolnshire. In many cases the gangs are actually organised by nationality and if you don't speak the language you don't get the job.
On one level I understand it as far as easing communication but on another I find it offensive that an English speaker wouldn't get a particular job in their own country because they don't speak Polish or Portuguese.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
How sweet. You must be proud of the little darling.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
How sweet. You must be proud of the little darling.
I’m very proud of her pro European attitude.
I'm very proud of her aggressively neo-liberal approach. It's very Tebbit with just a dash of Keith Joseph.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
I'm sure that will be a huge consolation to someone who has lost their job.
Agree; but a degree of self-awareness is a useful life skill.
Maybe we should just put them down, I mean it's the logical conclusion what we with all these smnart immigrants coming in.
By the way, Victoria Derbyshire should never be allowed to be in charge of a serious debate ever again. She is awful.
So is her daily show on BBC. She was out of her depth tonight but to be fair she only finished 30 days of chemo today so you have to admire her for that reason alone
You actually watch her show...you must be one of the couple of coach loads that do. How she got her good gigs at the BBC is a very interesting story & involved ruining the career of a far more intelligent presenter.
I absolutely do not - it drives me straight to Sky
LOL...you could always watch the fragrant jeremy kyle or the wooden Dion Dublin on homes under the hammer...who says telly has gone down hill!
I only watch news, sport and politics otherwise I spend much time with my lovely wife of 52 years. I have never watched Jeremy Kyle and have no idea who Dublin is
You aren't missing out. Dion Dublin was a professional footballer, lovely guy (used to live near him years ago), but he is more wooden than an oak dining table.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
Casino_Royale - printed your blog post and gave it to two women at work I overheard in discussion; one tending towards Remain the other totally unsure and decrying the obviously biased daily diet of scaremongering. Don't know which they are going but the possible Remainer came back to me next day and praised the clarity. So another thank-you to you.
Anecdote - was dealing with a Romanian lady last week. 30s, said she had been her 10-12 years and her kids have British passports. Asked me straight out how I was voting. Told her and frankly felt a bit awkward so stressed that it all about sovereignty for me. I needn't have worried; she explained that she too had the vote and was voting leave. "This is an island, and its different" she said and I grew a foot taller on the spot.
Thanks trawl :-)
Like you, I'm really struggling emotionally with this. My mood can turn on a sixpence depending upon a poll, or a single conversion!
Thankfully, I'm away over the weekend for a much needed break.
FPT Casino Royale, keep your chin up fellah. All we can offer is blood, toil, sweat and tears etc. I'm happy to vote for Leave even if I'm the only bugger that does. I've shared your blog post too with a couple of people I know. Both are fairly anti-political generally but found it interesting and moved them from DNV to Prob Leave.
Thanks mate :-)
Worst thing for me is Leavers moving to Remainers, particularly off the back of the Government's incessant fear propaganda. It really depresses me.
Where's our courage, self-belief and confidence we can build a brighter future for ourselves, and give leadership to those in Europe also desperate for self-governance again?
We mustn't let the buggers win.
The buggers are going to win. We just have to make sure that we win NEXT time. And there will be a next time.
If Casino Royale is right there will definitely be a next time and Leave will win. If it doesn't win this time.
SO that is taking the kicking into the long grass theory a bit far. Leave are like Spurs never won the league since 1961, and when they got their chance again this year , they choked in the final month and blew it.
De Gaulle was right to veto Britain`s EEC membership.
De Gaulle was asked by a journalist to explain France’s position towards Britain’s entry and “the political evolution of Europe.” The president recognised that the British would be reluctant to lose some of its preferences regarding trade with the Commonwealth and this would not only pose problem for the United Kingdom, but also for other Member States:
I thought that you were in Scotland not a fellow Bedesian?
Didn't you know Bedford was twinned with Auchentennach ? ... Mike Smlthson is a BALD COOT
Bedford Auchentennach Liberal Democrat Chairman Of Online Twinning
Lol.
I am an established member of.
Former Londoners In To Whimsical Items Concerning Kilts
I used to wash up in your esteemed country house hotel
A fine and noble place that is almost good enough for Jack W to rest his head. I live among the specimen trees of what was the manicured pleasure grounds of the manor before socialism took its toll and they was sold off for a housing estate and large Tesco.
My good lady wife has been known to take afternoon tea there on rare occasions.
I trust you were employed there and that it wasnt that you awoke there one morning realising you had neglected to take your wallet for your overnight stay. :-)
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Language is less of an issue when UK employers say they will only take people who can speak Polish or Portuguese.
Does that happen to any measurable degree? Other than jobs where that skill is essential .... for example I’ve known CABx seek people who can speak those languages.
There have been occasional high profile cases in the papers over the last few years where Brits were refused jobs by companies because they could not speak the language of the majority of the rest of the workforce.
It is extremely common amongst the gangs working the fields in East Anglia and Lincolnshire. In many cases the gangs are actually organised by nationality and if you don't speak the language you don't get the job.
On one level I understand it as far as easing communication but on another I find it offensive that an English speaker wouldn't get a particular job in their own country because they don't speak Polish or Portuguese.
The present Government had steadily emasculated the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. OIt wasn’t perfect by any means but itb was a start and the Conservative response to problems has been to constrain it’s overall activity, not reforrm it.
Casino_Royale - printed your blog post and gave it to two women at work I overheard in discussion; one tending towards Remain the other totally unsure and decrying the obviously biased daily diet of scaremongering. Don't know which they are going but the possible Remainer came back to me next day and praised the clarity. So another thank-you to you. and I grew a foot taller on the spot.
Thanks trawl :-)
Like you, I'm really struggling emotionally with this. My mood can turn on a sixpence depending upon a poll, or a single conversion!
Thankfully, I'm away over the weekend for a much needed break.
FPT CNV to Prob Leave.
Thanks mate :-)
Worst thing for me is Leavers moving to Remainers, particularly off the back of the Government's incessant fear propaganda. It really depresses me.
Where's our courage, self-belief and confidence we can build a brighter future for ourselves, and give leadership to those in Europe also desperate for self-governance again?
We mustn't let the buggers win.
The buggers are going to win. We just have to make sure that we win NEXT time. And there will be a next time.
If Casino Royale is right there will definitely be a next time and Leave will win. If it doesn't win this time.
The Eurozone will Federalise: it has to, or it dies. At that point there will be a new Treaty, enabling them to caucus against us (not because they want to hurt us, just because it is human nature)
We will either vote down the Treaty, causing a 2nd in/out referendum, or there will be such a brouahaha we will go straight to a second in/out referendum, and this time we will be Out, as the Tory government/Oppostion of the day will demand this, likewise the City, etc.
In the end the choice will be join the euro or leave the EU. And we will leave.
And it is possible the crunch will come even sooner than that. Look at today's horrendous immigration stats. Unsustainable.
I agree the EZ has to federalise to survive.
But I think we'll find that at that point, the great and the good who now campaign for Remain, will be campaigning for us to be part of that project.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
And they may just win it for remain as grandparents are so easy to persuade for their case.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
I'm sure that will be a huge consolation to someone who has lost their job.
"No knowledge of the language"
Bollocks, every european person I know speaks great english.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Don't be a dick.
I had this very argument with Snowflake, on this very site, maybe 7 years ago.
I pointed out to her that in the late 1990s, in Islington, my friends and I were paying a white working class woman £9 an hour to clean our house, and that in 2008, a decade later, I was paying a Thai girl LESS (£7 at the time), to clean my flat in Camden. I was paying less because there were lots of people willing to work for less, all of them foreign.
My white British cleaner was perfectly good, indeed very good, but she simply couldn't compete on wages. She wasn't shit at her job.
At the time Snowflake, refused to believe this was happening and basically claimed I was lying. Since then I notice that Labour has finally admitted that, yes, importing people willing to live 10 to a room and skivvy for absolute minimum wage will fuck the already feeble hopes of the native unskilled working classes.
Interesting. I have Thai relatives (by marriage) and without exception they say it is extremely difficult to get into the UK. Of course, if you are employing illegal immigrants ........
Hi CockerSpaniel, you could look at http://eureferendum.com/. The proprietor bites but just ignore that he is a technical expert on all of these issues. I would post your list in the comments section.
He has written a book on the various options and costs associated with leaving. It is called Flexcit and is avaliable as a free download from his website. There is also a slimmed down version called "the market solution".
Ahh, Thanks. I'll have a look at that tomorrow morning.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Particularly after being ahead or within a statistical tie in so many polls; mystifying.
Yes were ahead in only 2 polls throughout the indy campaign but fought right up to the last day.
But Yessers had more in common with Monty Python's Black Prince than rational sentient beings who know when their limbs have been hacked off. (Which was before the fight even started. As plenty on here said - 2, maybe 3 years out...)
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Particularly after being ahead or within a statistical tie in so many polls; mystifying.
Yes were ahead in only 2 polls throughout the indy campaign but fought right up to the last day.
You're absolutely right. This is a panicky website, where people switch rapidly from triumph to despair. But, I'll campaign to the end, as will most activists.
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Perhaps deep down a lot of them don't really want to win. I'm serious! It's one thing to dream about something over the years; it's quite another seeing it explode into reality - especially when its consequences might be devastating and blamed on you.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Don't be a dick.
I had this very argument with Snowflake, on this very site, maybe 7 years ago.
I pointed out to her that in the late 1990s, in Islington, my friends and I were paying a white working class woman £9 an hour to clean our house, and that in 2008, a decade later, I was paying a Thai girl LESS (£7 at the time), to clean my flat in Camden. I was paying less because there were lots of people willing to work for less, all of them foreign.
My white British cleaner was perfectly good, indeed very good, but she simply couldn't compete on wages. She wasn't shit at her job.
At the time Snowflake, refused to believe this was happening and basically claimed I was lying. Since then I notice that Labour has finally admitted that, yes, importing people willing to live 10 to a room and skivvy for absolute minimum wage will fuck the already feeble hopes of the native unskilled working classes.
Is your cleaner from the 90s out of work now and earning less than £9 an hour?
Not watching the shit show...all too predictable having the woman who makes kay Burley look like a brain surgeon (and not the Ben Carson type) & has an impossible time hiding her personal views on subjects.
I wonder if many listened to Peter Allen on R5 earlier. There were some heartbreaking stories of real hardship around housing and home sharing and affordability. Very very sad indeed.
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is: Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
And they may just win it for remain as grandparents are so easy to persuade for their case.
Doubt it. Grandparents are well-used to offspring being silly.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
And didnt that view come out in the seesaw poster.
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Perhaps deep down a lot of them don't really want to win. I'm serious! It's one thing to dream about something over the years; it's quite another seeing it explode into reality - especially when its consequences might be devastating and blamed on you.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
One of the most extraordinary evolutions of my lifetime is the transformation of Labour from the party OF the British working classes to the party that most actively LOATHES the white British working classes.
The Tories sometimes sneer at the working poor, the Lib Dems cordially ignore them, but only Labour (supposedly THE WWC party) has proactively abandoned them, and turned on them with a smug and acidic contempt, a deliberate and flamboyant disregard for their welfare, witness OldKingCoal on here this evening.
It's really quite something. It's like the Tories deciding the aspirational middle classes of southern England must be spectacularly shat on all day every day, or the SNP making Scot Nationalists dip their genitals into vats of acid.
And then Labour sometimes wonders why its voters are going UKIP.
Far from confined to the Labour Party, IMHO. I don't think that working class, or lower middle class, people matter very much to the establishment, unless they come from interesting ethnic or sexual minorities.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
One of the most extraordinary evolutions of my lifetime is the transformation of Labour from the party OF the British working classes to the party that most actively LOATHES the white British working classes.
The Tories sometimes sneer at the working poor, the Lib Dems cordially ignore them, but only Labour (supposedly THE WWC party) has proactively abandoned them, and turned on them with a smug and acidic contempt, a deliberate and flamboyant disregard for their welfare, witness OldKingCoal on here this evening.
It's really quite something. It's like the Tories deciding the aspirational middle classes of southern England must be spectacularly shat on all day every day, or the SNP making Scot Nationalists dip their genitals into vats of acid.
And then Labour sometimes wonders why its voters are going UKIP.
Just pointing out that I’m not a Labour Party member; haven’t been since about 1960, although I sometimes (not often) vote for the party’s candidate. When I was a trade union member as an NHS employee I didn’t pay the levy, either.
And I was reporting something; didn’t say I particularly agreed with it.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
Don't be a dick.
I had this very argument with Yvette Cooper sorry, Snowflake, on this very site, maybe 7 years ago.
I pointed out to her that in the late 1990s, in Islington, my friends and I were paying a white working class woman £9 an hour to clean our house, and that in 2008, a decade later, I was paying a Thai girl LESS (£7 at the time), to clean my flat in Camden. I was paying less because there were lots of people willing to work for less, all of them foreign.
My white British cleaner was perfectly good, indeed very good, but she simply couldn't compete on wages. She wasn't shit at her job.
At the time Yvette Cooper, sorry, Snowflake, refused to believe this was happening and basically claimed I was lying. Since then I notice that Labour has finally admitted that, yes, importing people willing to live 10 to a room and skivvy for absolute minimum wage will fuck the already feeble hopes of the native unskilled working classes.
Is your cleaner from the 90s out of work now and earning less than £9 an hour?
She had no other skills apart from being a good cleaner. A fairly reproducible skill.
Given that she probably doesn't want to live ten to a room, and take a 20% pay cut AS WELL, I imagine she is finding things quite hard, thanks to mass immigration.
But hey. She's probably a bigot. Fuck her. Who cares about the working poor. They're all RACIST SCUM and SHIT AT THEIR JOBS as OldKingCole's delightful granddaughter will tell us.
It would help, Mr T if you would read posts before you commented on them!
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
One of the most extraordinary evolutions of my lifetime is the transformation of Labour from the party OF the British working classes to the party that most actively LOATHES the white British working classes.
The Tories sometimes sneer at the working poor, the Lib Dems cordially ignore them, but only Labour (supposedly THE WWC party) has proactively abandoned them, and turned on them with a smug and acidic contempt, a deliberate and flamboyant disregard for their welfare, witness OldKingCoal on here this evening.
It's really quite something. It's like the Tories deciding the aspirational middle classes of southern England must be spectacularly shat on all day every day, or the SNP making Scot Nationalists dip their genitals into vats of acid.
And then Labour sometimes wonders why its voters are going UKIP.
Far from confined to the Labour Party, IMHO. I don't think that working class, or lower middle class, people matter very much to the establishment, unless they come from interesting ethnic or sexual minorities.
You haven't been filtered out by the fabled 'Edmund widget' have you? I understand that it got rummaged from the attic a few weeks back. (I hope I'm on it!)
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
One of the most extraordinary evolutions of my lifetime is the transformation of Labour from the party OF the British working classes to the party that most actively LOATHES the white British working classes.
The Tories sometimes sneer at the working poor, the Lib Dems cordially ignore them, but only Labour (supposedly THE WWC party) has proactively abandoned them, and turned on them with a smug and acidic contempt, a deliberate and flamboyant disregard for their welfare, witness OldKingCoal on here this evening.
It's really quite something. It's like the Tories deciding the aspirational middle classes of southern England must be spectacularly shat on all day every day, or the SNP making Scot Nationalists dip their genitals into vats of acid.
And then Labour sometimes wonders why its voters are going UKIP.
Far from confined to the Labour Party, IMHO. I don't think that working class, or lower middle class, people matter very much to the establishment, unless they come from interesting ethnic or sexual minorities.
I wonder if many listened to Peter Allen on R5 earlier. There were some heartbreaking stories of real hardship around housing and home sharing and affordability. Very very sad indeed.
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is: Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
Yeah but @Surbiton bought his London house in 1843 and he's seen 100000000 £ of unearned income on it.
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Particularly after being ahead or within a statistical tie in so many polls; mystifying.
Yes were ahead in only 2 polls throughout the indy campaign but fought right up to the last day.
But Yessers had more in common with Monty Python's Black Prince than rational sentient beings who know when their limbs have been hacked off. (Which was before the fight even started. As plenty on here said - 2, maybe 3 years out...)
Yeah 'plenty', but obviously not the ones that said we wouldn't be allowed to hold a referendum, and then that the Scots were totally uninterested, and then that No would win by 2 or even 3 to 1, and then that the SNP would disintegrate after losing.
I remember on the Thursday before the referendum asking on here whether everyone was agreed that the result was unknowable. Several folk (including Unionists) concurred, but more tellingly not a single PB prophet was willing to put their head above the parapet.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
No I think it's actually a more basic split between the camps,
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
Mymaybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
On
And then Labour sometimes wonders why its voters are going UKIP.
Far from confined to the Labour Party, IMHO. I don't think that working class, or lower middle class, people matter very much to the establishment, unless they come from interesting ethnic or sexual minorities.
I disagree. I think it is very particularly a Labour trait. Recall it was Gordon Brown who called Duffy a bigot. And it was Labour MP Emily Thornberry who posted that infamous tweet. And it was Labour shadow minister Pat Glass who did this
The Tories can be rich sneering wankers, but I don't think they actively hate the British white working classes. Instead they feel pity, or boredom, along with a basic tribal camaraderie: we are all Brits.
By contrast, I believe the London Labour elite - i.e. essentially most of Labour now- really really DO despise the chavs. And a common patriotism does not exist to bridge the gulf.
And the chavs have now noticed.
Labour created tax credits, the Tories created the bedroom tax.
Labour has been hijacked by an elite but elitism is the Tories' raison d'etre.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
No I think it's actually a more basic split between the camps,
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
I don't think that's right. Remainers are foxes and Leavers are hedgehogs.
It is going to be interesting the reaction if the developments in AI have the predicted effect even to a moderate degree whereby previous comfortably paid middle class jobs are replaced by computer or only require a lower level of skill to control the computer to do the job.
I wonder if many listened to Peter Allen on R5 earlier. There were some heartbreaking stories of real hardship around housing and home sharing and affordability. Very very sad indeed.
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is: Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
I agree Fenster regarding Peter Allen. Hard to imagine for many who live in a nice area and have a nice house. Myself included.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter has just shared this on Facebook. It’s from a George Bevan. I’m not posting the whole of it, but as far as taking our jobs are concerned he says "maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave vote will deliver. If it leads to reduced GDP and a lower tax take - and, at least in the short term, even a lot of Remainers will concede that- then what awaits the least advantaged are even more cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
No I think it's actually a more basic split between the camps,
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
Hmmm - Remainers are only interested in money (their own presumably) while Leavers are answering a higher call. Of course :-)
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
My (voting Remain) granddaughter hakills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're s**t at your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave votore cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
No I think it's actually a more basic split between the camps,
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
Hmmm - Remainers are only interested in money (their own presumably) while Leavers are answering a higher call. Of course :-)
I havent seen a Remain argument that isn't about money,
Sovereignty, border control, democratic accountability are abstract principles and mostly what Leave is pushing as its economic argument has so far been ignored.
Julie Burchill once apparently responded to a rather pompous Katherine Hamnett saying to her at a party - 'I think the young poor dress so much better than the young rich' by saying 'That's because they can't afford your clothes'.
That's the biggest irony of lefty's trumpeting of Polish plumbers. Of course they're hardworking, enterprising, respectful, well educated and cheap - they haven't come through your education and social system. The feckless scroungers of our generation are the progeny of the left. The central European tradesmen they love so much come from the exact religious, conservative, family-oriented background they dislike so much.
Never seen one side of an election/referendum give up so early.
Particularly after being ahead or within a statistical tie in so many polls; mystifying.
Yes were ahead in only 2 polls throughout the indy campaign but fought right up to the last day.
But Yessers had more in common with Monty Python's Black Prince than rational sentient beings who know when their limbs have been hacked off. (Which was before the fight even started. As plenty on here said - 2, maybe 3 years out...)
Yeah 'plenty', but obviously not the ones that said we wouldn't be allowed to hold a referendum, and then that the Scots were totally uninterested, and then that No would win by 2 or even 3 to 1, and then that the SNP would disintegrate after losing.
I remember on the Thursday before the referendum asking on here whether everyone was agreed that the result was unknowable. Several folk (including Unionists) concurred, but more tellingly not a single PB prophet was willing to put their head above the parapet.
I would have, but I was travelling to Barra - just in case there was one hell of an unexpected party!
"From freedom of speech to economic growth, the left has already jettisoned many of its founding principles. But the Brexit retreat is, in many ways, a more stark betrayal. The modern left’s detachment from the masses, its sneering distaste for our habits and desires, has fostered a profound fear of change itself. Their paranoia about where unleashed public passions might flow has led them to cling to the status quo for dear life.
These are progressives terrified of change – and terrified of us. Faced with the opportunity to demolish an anti-democratic order, they are standing athwart, yelling Stop.
the voters need simple easy to understand answers to things like jobs, travel, housing and the things that matter in their daily lives
Your house costs more because migration is out of hand? Your wages are poor because you are being undercut?
I think you may be right.
Answer to first is build more homes and second the new National Living wage applies to all
Myat your job."
You can always trust your grandchildren to show more wisdom then you expect. It is part of the delight of having grandchildren
I'd probably say "Very nice dear, you'll grow up."
quite frankly the attitude of PB remainers to the less advantaged has beem little short of amazing today, and thats right across the political spectre
That surely depends on what you believe a Leave votore cuts to the public services they rely on.
Actually the post had nothing directly to do with EUref but a general observation on how the "thickos", chavs, failures are viewed by the so called betters based on some of the posts on PB today.
Yep - and I've also noticed a new found concern among right wing Leavers for those they used to label feckless, workshy, scroungers. This referendum is doing strange things to people.
No I think it's actually a more basic split between the camps,
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
Hmmm - Remainers are only interested in money (their own presumably) while Leavers are answering a higher call. Of course :-)
I havent seen a Remain argument that isn't about money,
Sovereignty, border control, democratic accountability are abstract principles and mostly what Leave is pushing as its economic argument has so far been ignored.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
I wonder if many listened to Peter Allen on R5 earlier. There were some heartbreaking stories of real hardship around housing and home sharing and affordability. Very very sad indeed.
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is: Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
I agree Fenster regarding Peter Allen. Hard to imagine for many who live in a nice area and have a nice house. Myself included.
The tragedy is how the Labour party, a party that should be caring about the lowest paid and least wealthy in our society, actually supports a policy that makes life worse for them by importing over 1 million unskilled workers. With the exception of a few Labour MPs, the interests of the poor are really only the concern of the Conservative MPs that understand the laws of the market and care about the unskilled.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Privately, Cameron must be in despair at the failure to control immigration. I support the govt but on immigration they have catastrophically, spectacularly, singularly FAILED.
Britain can't sensibly continue to take in such enormous numbers of unskilled workers. It's just silly. Especially when so many congregate in the South East. If it costs Cameron the EU ref then good.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
Privately, Cameron must be in despair at the failure to control immigration. I support the govt but on immigration they have catastrophically, spectacularly, singularly FAILED.
Britain can't sensible continue to take in such enormous numbers of unskilled workers. It's just silly. Especially when so many congregate in the South East. If it costs Cameron the EU ref then good.
Remain will win, net inward migration will continue to rise, and 80 per cent plus of British people will continue to vote for parties that oversee high migration.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
My other half has gone from "Remain" to "undecided" back to "Remain". 'Muck or nettles' apparently...
My family too will be going "remain". There is zero, and I mean zero enthusiasm though. I can understand people voting remain, or even leave but I simply can't understand the massive amounts of enthusiasm from certain "Remainers" here.
Both options are shit, we wouldn't have started here is all I can say.
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
Privately, Cameron must be in despair at the failure to control immigration. I support the govt but on immigration they have catastrophically, spectacularly, singularly FAILED.
Britain can't sensible continue to take in such enormous numbers of unskilled workers. It's just silly. Especially when so many congregate in the South East. If it costs Cameron the EU ref then good.
Remain will win, net inward migration will continue to rise, and 80 per cent plus of British people will continue to vote for parties that oversee high migration.
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
Today in the media it has mainly been Conservative MPs speaking out about the plight of lower paid working class people that are suffering because of the current levels of immigration. Two examples of several today are IDS on Daily politics at lunch time and Nadhim Zahawi on C4 News this evening.
The Labour politicians were appearing on the side opposed to curbing immigration.....
One day, there is going to be a terrible backlash from the working class to the Labour party.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
I am a Leaver and I couldn't give a toss about the economics. I would like my son to live in a country that is self-governing, like the one that you and I grew up in.
I wonder if many listened to Peter Allen on R5 earlier. There were some heartbreaking stories of real hardship around housing and home sharing and affordability. Very very sad indeed.
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is: Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
I agree Fenster regarding Peter Allen. Hard to imagine for many who live in a nice area and have a nice house. Myself included.
The tragedy is how the Labour party, a party that should be caring about the lowest paid and least wealthy in our society, actually supports a policy that makes life worse for them by importing over 1 million unskilled workers. With the exception of a few Labour MPs, the interests of the poor are really only the concern of the Conservative MPs that understand the laws of the market and care about the unskilled.
Net inward migration has doubled in the last three years under the Tories. Actually moving further above their "ceiling" or "upper limit", not that it was ever underneath it. The Tories won a historic majority as economic growth and inward migration ramped up.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
You are the one trying to discuss things like democratic control and sovereignty in terms of economic reward. I certainly don't think of them in those terms. I don't for a minute believe there a trade off to be made between the two but even if there were I would still chose an improved democratic and sovereignty solution even if it meant an economic hit (which I don't believe it will)
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
Are your fingers still intact?
I always pack a steel ruler for canvassing. Great for shoving leaflets through a letter box
*Canvassing report from a working class part of Sheffield*
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
Paul Brand ITV Never advocate insulting electorate, BUT when I asked a man today how he was voting in referendum he said 'Labour' https://t.co/ncV6RNyxkP
Comments
It is extremely common amongst the gangs working the fields in East Anglia and Lincolnshire. In many cases the gangs are actually organised by nationality and if you don't speak the language you don't get the job.
On one level I understand it as far as easing communication but on another I find it offensive that an English speaker wouldn't get a particular job in their own country because they don't speak Polish or Portuguese.
Leave are like Spurs never won the league since 1961, and when they got their chance again this year , they choked in the final month and blew it.
De Gaulle was right to veto Britain`s EEC membership.
De Gaulle was asked by a journalist to explain France’s position towards Britain’s entry and “the political evolution of Europe.” The president recognised that the British would be reluctant to lose some of its preferences regarding trade with the Commonwealth and this would not only pose problem for the United Kingdom, but also for other Member States:
My good lady wife has been known to take afternoon tea there on rare occasions.
I trust you were employed there and that it wasnt that you awoke there one morning realising you had neglected to take your wallet for your overnight stay. :-)
Yes were ahead in only 2 polls throughout the indy campaign but fought right up to the last day.
Unlike Leave.
But I think we'll find that at that point, the great and the good who now campaign for Remain, will be campaigning for us to be part of that project.
Bollocks, every european person I know speaks great english.
Of course, if you are employing illegal immigrants ........
I found it quite hard to listen to. A single woman n her 60s forced to share homes with young twentysomethings. A 50 year old father with nowhere to live after splittjng from his wife. Tales of Eastern European workers living four to a single room.
You can completely take politics and blame out of it and the basic equation we are left with is:
Too many people + Not enough houses + constant increases in house prices and rents = x
If 'x' really does equal limitless immigration from.the EU then something is wrong somewhere.
It pains me that people who have worked hard all their lives and who have reared children and paid taxes and NI should face a life of such misery and uncertainty.
Very sad. I fear for the future when I hear stories like those today. Fair play to Peter Allen..He was brave enough to make the immigration figure link and express that it is only making it worse.
I guess I'm just not rapid enough for this site
And I was reporting something; didn’t say I particularly agreed with it.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/jun/08/chavs-demonization-owen-jones-review
A bit of light dusting around the PB servers?
So he's ALRIGHT !
I remember on the Thursday before the referendum asking on here whether everyone was agreed that the result was unknowable. Several folk (including Unionists) concurred, but more tellingly not a single PB prophet was willing to put their head above the parapet.
Remains arguments are essentially money led, Leaves tends to think money is only one part of the mix and weight abstratc principles more. It's one of the reasons the PB sides find very little common ground. Its simply a clash of values.
Labour has been hijacked by an elite but elitism is the Tories' raison d'etre.
Hard to imagine for many who live in a nice area and have a nice house.
Myself included.
Sovereignty, border control, democratic accountability are abstract principles and mostly what Leave is pushing as its economic argument has so far been ignored.
That's the biggest irony of lefty's trumpeting of Polish plumbers. Of course they're hardworking, enterprising, respectful, well educated and cheap - they haven't come through your education and social system. The feckless scroungers of our generation are the progeny of the left. The central European tradesmen they love so much come from the exact religious, conservative, family-oriented background they dislike so much.
Alternatively
Why do I need so much sleep.
These are progressives terrified of change – and terrified of us. Faced with the opportunity to demolish an anti-democratic order, they are standing athwart, yelling Stop.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-progressives-terrified-of-change-europe-eu-varoufakis-jones-mason#.V0dmexzTVTc
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/05/26/01016-20160526ARTFIG00322-nouvelles-violences-dans-les-manifestations.php
Poot Staurt Rose will have a heart attack.
And it plays very well on the doorstep.
It trumps anything Remain have got.
Except, obv, with those on the EU gravy train, the mad and/or traitors.
Leave don't want more sovereignty, democratic control and border controls for abstract reasons. They want them because they believe they will deliver better economic outcomes. Remain's arguments are about exactly the same thing.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
Bloody hell!
Privately, Cameron must be in despair at the failure to control immigration. I support the govt but on immigration they have catastrophically, spectacularly, singularly FAILED.
Britain can't sensibly continue to take in such enormous numbers of unskilled workers. It's just silly. Especially when so many congregate in the South East. If it costs Cameron the EU ref then good.
As I said it is a value clash,
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
Youre simply looking at the leave argument in your own terms, monetary.
Better economic outcomes is only part of it.
And your allowing your disdain for Remainers to dictate your reaction to what the Remain side says.
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
What have you said that isn't scaring people or threatening poverty ?
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
My family too will be going "remain". There is zero, and I mean zero enthusiasm though. I can understand people voting remain, or even leave but I simply can't understand the massive amounts of enthusiasm from certain "Remainers" here.
Both options are shit, we wouldn't have started here is all I can say.
Yes, I can see why the polls show Leavers are more motivated to turn out
The totally of immigration to this country isn't the issue, but the quality of them, everyone or a family member has either been a treated by an immigrant NHS member of staff, whom they adore, they want more of them, and fewer of the Roma.
That said, very few of them know the exact date of the referendum.
The Labour politicians were appearing on the side opposed to curbing immigration.....
One day, there is going to be a terrible backlash from the working class to the Labour party.
Me? I have said I am voting Remain because I want to preserve the UK's full and unfettered access to the single market. If that scares you, I'm sorry.
No that's your money\poverty argument.
Which personally I think is nonsense.
LOL @ Further information being revealed the day after the referendum.
Never advocate insulting electorate, BUT when I asked a man today how he was voting in referendum he said 'Labour' https://t.co/ncV6RNyxkP