Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
The notion that working class people do not need plumbers is a quaint one that indicates a certain level of detachment from the real world.
There is so much bollocks written about the working class - white or otherwise - on PB. Do you know what's really fucked up countless working class communities in the UK? Drugs, the buying and selling of. The middle class has played a huge part in that. Heading off to Tottenham to get another fix as the place got ruined by the gangs that sprung up to feed the demand. How immensely patriotic.
We can have plumbers - we just have to train them ourselves. Simples.
@SeanT neatly illustrating that Remainers think the referendum is an argument while Leavers think it is a crusade.
Take your own advice, SeanT. Enjoy this beautiful day. We all have fewer beautiful days to enjoy than we think we have.
Crusade? "a vigorous campaign for political, social, or religious change." ? It is a campaign for or against political change. It is vigorous ("strong, healthy, and full of energy.") because people care about their country and how they are governed or otherwise.
I'm assuming this was an attempt to sweepingly generalise all LEAVErs, which is wrong not only because of the sweeping generalisation but also because you are shooting the messenger not the message.
Let's be realistic here. At some point in the next decade or 15 years, the EU will want to do something that is extremely politically unpopular in the UK. Maybe it's an EU army, maybe it's Turkish accession. Whatever it is, it will be impossible for a UK government to remain in power and sign up to that transfer of powers. Another referendum will be held, almost certainly with the government supporting EFTA/EEA, and which will be won.
That may well be the case - so be it.
But this argument that somehow the EU is going to 'snuff out democracy', 'replace Common law' (Scots law has survived 300+ years of 'oppression' (sic)) and somehow magically stop us having a referendum (technically we wouldn't even need one if a party won a majority on the basis of us leaving) is for the (somewhat hysterical) birds.....
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
In the long run, we all receive what our skills command on the world market. You put a hack Italian writer out of a job, or diminish his income because an Italian chose your book over his.
Perhaps so. But you can accelerate this process, painfully and unnecessarily, if you throw open your frontiers to 500m people and say Come One, Come All. Other countries don't open their borders - hello Australia - and do perfectly well. Better than us.
Ignoring the fact that Australia has more immigration than us, I've proposed a much more sensible solution: compulsory NHS health insurance for non-citizens. It would essentially eliminate all low-skilled migration, while allowing the magic of the market to continue to work.
I CARE ABOUT THIS REFERENDUM MUCH MORE THAN I EXPECTED
dawning self-awareness snipped
Good morning Sean, enjoy the day it truly is beautiful.
I think you are angry because you are stupid. You are sharp, witty, droll, acute and all those things of course, but stupid in that you haven't bothered (because you aren't a details man) to work out what being in or out of the EU actually means.
Hence your admitted cybernat/FREEDOM feelings. Absolutely understandable: you are feeling overwhelmed and so lash out.
But don't worry. It will pass. All will be well.
So sorry @TOPPING. You and others like you have sold your country for a pottage. Like Esau with Jacob you will sell your soul for supposedly immediate gain, destroying your heritage in the process.
Cameron and Co have held out the pottage economic disasters and the voting public seem to have sniffed the lies but cannot keep their hands of the supposed goodies. So Great Britain becomes Little Britain in fact, and eventually No Britain.
No one is British. We are (if we are) citizens of the UK on the one hand, and English, Scots, Welsh or Irish on the other. Unionism is a political construct, and if it appeals to your heart/soul I would strongly advise you to see a qualified person (religion, psychiatry, whatever) before you get much older.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Leavers are generally angry - I've done quite a bit of doorstep canvassing and Leavers, although much fewer in number than Remainers (in inner London) are generally much angrier. They also have more to be angry about - Remainers generally live in privately owned, or rented, properties and have jobs, cars etc etc. Leavers are concentrated in social housing, poorer, unlikely to be in full time work, blame all their troubles on immigrants. However, these people are historically much less likely to vote than their more prosperous neighbours.
I CARE ABOUT THIS REFERENDUM MUCH MORE THAN I EXPECTED
dawning self-awareness snipped
Good morning Sean, enjoy the day it truly is beautiful.
I think you are angry because you are stupid. You are sharp, witty, droll, acute and all those things of course, but stupid in that you haven't bothered (because you aren't a details man) to work out what being in or out of the EU actually means.
Hence your admitted cybernat/FREEDOM feelings. Absolutely understandable: you are feeling overwhelmed and so lash out.
But don't worry. It will pass. All will be well.
So sorry @TOPPING. You and others like you have sold your country for a pottage. Like Esau with Jacob you will sell your soul for supposedly immediate gain, destroying your heritage in the process.
Cameron and Co have held out the pottage economic disasters and the voting public seem to have sniffed the lies but cannot keep their hands of the supposed goodies. So Great Britain becomes Little Britain in fact, and eventually No Britain.
Blaming the voters for being stupid/greedy/not getting it is not a strong look.
@SeanT neatly illustrating that Remainers think the referendum is an argument while Leavers think it is a crusade.
Take your own advice, SeanT. Enjoy this beautiful day. We all have fewer beautiful days to enjoy than we think we have.
Crusade? "a vigorous campaign for political, social, or religious change." ? It is a campaign for or against political change. It is vigorous ("strong, healthy, and full of energy.") because people care about their country and how they are governed or otherwise.
I'm assuming this was an attempt to sweepingly generalise all LEAVErs, which is wrong not only because of the sweeping generalisation but also because you are shooting the messenger not the message.
It is, of course, worth remembering that during the last five years - a period when appalling levels of unemployment in Eurozone countries and the accession of poor countries such as Romania to the EU led to unprecedented levels of migration - our population was swelled by...
1.5%
I've been to Latvia; a country where the Soviet Union forced Latvians to leave their homes, to be replaced by ethnic Russians.
If the USSR - over the course of a half century of policies mean to extinguish Latvia as a nation, with all the weapons of the gulag, forced migrations and the secret police - couldn't do it, I don't think the EU will it.
Let's be realistic here. At some point in the next decade or 15 years, the EU will want to do something that is extremely politically unpopular in the UK. Maybe it's an EU army, maybe it's Turkish accession. Whatever it is, it will be impossible for a UK government to remain in power and sign up to that transfer of powers. Another referendum will be held, almost certainly with the government supporting EFTA/EEA, and which will be won.
That is precisely why the argument that Remain is not the status quo is not resonating.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that if the EU decided to try to impose the Euro on us, or face Turkish entry on us against our will there will simply be another referendum and we will exit at that point.
As it is stands all the doomsday scenarios about what will happen if we remain are no more than empty threats, which, in turn, results in our armed forces minister claiming we have no veto over Turkish entry to the UK. It's desperate stuff and we know it is.
Both sides are spinning scare stories. I wonder how many will vote on the basis that if the Remain scare stories are correct we are fu**ed and there is no going back but if the Leave scare stories are correct we have a second chance and can exit at a later date.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
Ultimately I oppose continental political governance for the same reason I oppose world governance. It monopolises (or creates an oligopoly in the case of continents) jurisdiction and governance which makes it more difficult to avoid bad governance and reduces political innovation through the reduction of competition.
Anyone who thinks they are right-wing or centre right should understand why monopolies are disastrous in the areas where they are imposed. I cannot avoid applying this principle to the political governance.
Well said. A global single government is not the ideal state that humanity should aspire to, despite what Star Trek says.
(I have seriously had a discussion on these lines re: EU ref with someone)
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
The notion that working class people do not need plumbers is a quaint one that indicates a certain level of detachment from the real world.
There is so much bollocks written about the working class - white or otherwise - on PB. Do you know what's really fucked up countless working class communities in the UK? Drugs, the buying and selling of. The middle class has played a huge part in that. Heading off to Tottenham to get another fix as the place got ruined by the gangs that sprung up to feed the demand. How immensely patriotic.
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes, you do have a level of responsibility. You and others like you - many now shouty, middle-aged Leavers - directly helped to screw over a large number of decent working class people of all colours with your edgy addictions.
And now you are voting for something that will lead to the public services the same people rely on being cut even further by this government that you voted for.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
In the long run, we all receive what our skills command on the world market. You put a hack Italian writer out of a job, or diminish his income because an Italian chose your book over his.
Perhaps so. But you can accelerate this process, painfully and unnecessarily, if you throw open your frontiers to 500m people and say Come One, Come All. Other countries don't open their borders - hello Australia - and do perfectly well. Better than us.
Ignoring the fact that Australia has more immigration than us, I've proposed a much more sensible solution: compulsory NHS health insurance for non-citizens. It would essentially eliminate all low-skilled migration, while allowing the magic of the market to continue to work.
I like that concept, can we do it under current EU regs?
Calm down dears. As I've pointed out many times before, it is a capital mistake to think that the intensity of the current Tory civil wars will continue after June 24th. It is a classic psychological error to give too much salience to current or recent information. The people will have spoken, and nearly everyone in the party will respect the result, whatever it is - especially if it's reasonably decisive. What's more, all the big guns will be falling over themselves to kiss and make up - you won't see Cameron and Osborne, and Gove and Grayling, laying into one another after June 24th. On the contrary, they'll be making a conspicuous effort to be seen as best buddies.
That's not to say that there won't be problems arising from rebel MPs, given the small majority. But with Cameron due to depart anyway, the focus will shift from attacks on him to manoeuvring for position in terms of electing the next leader, and MPs will know that the only possible way of getting your favoured man or woman into the contest and potentially into No 10 will be to build as wide a range of support as possible.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
You voted for a government that has cut the public services the disadvantaged rely on to the bone and you cheered it on as it did so; the same government whose economic and fiscal strategy - based on EU membership and high levels of immigration - you used to laud.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
In the long run, we all receive what our skills command on the world market. You put a hack Italian writer out of a job, or diminish his income because an Italian chose your book over his.
Perhaps so. But you can accelerate this process, painfully and unnecessarily, if you throw open your frontiers to 500m people and say Come One, Come All. Other countries don't open their borders - hello Australia - and do perfectly well. Better than us.
Ignoring the fact that Australia has more immigration than us, I've proposed a much more sensible solution: compulsory NHS health insurance for non-citizens. It would essentially eliminate all low-skilled migration, while allowing the magic of the market to continue to work.
I like that concept, can we do it under current EU regs?
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
Leavers should look on the bright side. Purdah starts on Friday which should in theory shut officialdom up. On Saturday I plan to be canvassing alongside Priti and IDS which should be interesting. And despite all the hot air being emitted by the Remain side the phone polls haven't actually changed that much over the last month (the Mori poll is the exception rather than the rule)
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
In the long run, we all receive what our skills command on the world market. You put a hack Italian writer out of a job, or diminish his income because an Italian chose your book over his.
Perhaps so. But you can accelerate this process, painfully and unnecessarily, if you throw open your frontiers to 500m people and say Come One, Come All. Other countries don't open their borders - hello Australia - and do perfectly well. Better than us.
Ignoring the fact that Australia has more immigration than us, I've proposed a much more sensible solution: compulsory NHS health insurance for non-citizens. It would essentially eliminate all low-skilled migration, while allowing the magic of the market to continue to work.
I like that concept, can we do it under current EU regs?
EU and EEA citizens already have their insurance through the EHIC. The NHS is just very bad at administration.
Calm down dears. As I've pointed out many times before, it is a capital mistake to think that the intensity of the current Tory civil wars will continue after June 24th. It is a classic psychological error to give too much salience to current or recent information. The people will have spoken, and nearly everyone in the party will respect the result, whatever it is - especially if it's reasonably decisive. What's more, all the big guns will be falling over themselves to kiss and make up - you won't see Cameron and Osborne, and Gove and Grayling, laying into one another after June 24th. On the contrary, they'll be making a conspicuous effort to be seen as best buddies.
That's not to say that there won't be problems arising from rebel MPs, given the small majority. But with Cameron due to depart anyway, the focus will shift from attacks on him to manoeuvring for position in terms of electing the next leader, and MPs will know that the only possible way of getting your favoured man or woman into the contest and potentially into No 10 will be to build as wide a range of support as possible.
Will we be rid of Cameron (and Osborne) sooner rather than later? Say it is so.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
The actual underclass doesn't consist of plumbers or people who might become plumbers. You need skill, intelligence and a capacity for really hard work to be a plumber.
The true underclass is those people who have no employable skills or personal traits. They are not going to become more employable just because there are fewer immigrants because they are unemployable to start with.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
In April after the financial year closed the Treasury said that the Govt had missed its borrowing target by £1.8bn to a new figure of -£74bn. Now in May the Treasury say that the target was missed by £4bn, now its -£76bn. If a FTSE 100 company made that level of error its Finance Director would have been fired. If a Company missed its profit by that amount the CEO/Chairman would also have been fired. Osborne and Cameron just carry on unchallenged by the share holders. http://order-order.com/2016/05/24/osborne-missed-borrowing-target-by-even-more-than-previously-thought/
This is the thing I don't understand about middle class remainers - they see the WWC having their pay cut, they see WWC jobs disappearing, they see the discrimination that extends housing benefits to somebody from Poland who wishes to move to London but doesn't do the same for somebody from Doncaster - and that is OK.
But they don't see that they themselves are paying an enormous price in rent or mortgage for property because of immigration. They are being priced out of homes too. They aren't going to live as well as their parents and their children are going to live worse. If interest rates go up they wil be in serious trouble.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
The .
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes, you do have a level of responsibility. You and others like you - many now shouty, middle-aged Leavers - directly helped to screw over a large number of decent working class people of all colours with your edgy addictions.
And now you are voting for something that will lead to the public services the same people rely on being cut even further by this government that you voted for.
But life is good - you are rich, so who cares?
This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard on pb. Ever. I was a crazy nihilistic irresponsible son of a bitch in the 20s. Clearly. I might have been amusing in parts but I was also a wanker. I will confess to this.
But I'm really not going to take PERSONAL responsibility for the global decline in median wages of the working poor across the West, accelerated by the process of globalisation and, in the EU, mass unchecked immigration. Sorry. Maybe its capitalist pig dogs like you that are to blame. Exploiter!
Etc. It's ridiculous.
Of course you won't take responsibility for what you helped to create. But Polish plumbers didn't spawn the drug gangs that blight working class communities up and down the UK. The people who craved drugs did that.
I've long said that the Conservatives will be the first UK party to elect a black leader and the first to elect an openly non-straight leader, as well as all the historic firsts already chalked up.
That said, I'm not sure how the practicalities of an MSP becoming Tory leader work. I can't remember offhand whether leadership nominees have to be MPs. If so, that would severely limit her chances this side of 2020.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
SeanT said "It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs."
This from the man, (if memory serves, and punch me if I'm wrong) who had to get a plumber to point out the efficacy of a rubber plunger to unblock a toilet.
I've long said that the Conservatives will be the first UK party to elect a black leader and the first to elect an openly non-straight leader, as well as all the historic firsts already chalked up.
That said, I'm not sure how the practicalities of an MSP becoming Tory leader work. I can't remember offhand whether leadership nominees have to be MPs. If so, that would severely limit her chances this side of 2020.
Kwasi Kwarteng. He also wants to return the UK to a contributory principle for the welfare state, which is another tough policy that people shy away from.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Exactly right.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
Italy, if I remember correctly, has a contributory health insurance system.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
No, they would have cover with the EHIC as a tourist. Only those who seek an NI number would be subject to the residency test for NHS treatment.
I've long said that the Conservatives will be the first UK party to elect a black leader and the first to elect an openly non-straight leader, as well as all the historic firsts already chalked up.
That said, I'm not sure how the practicalities of an MSP becoming Tory leader work. I can't remember offhand whether leadership nominees have to be MPs. If so, that would severely limit her chances this side of 2020.
Kwasi Kwarteng. He also wants to return the UK to a contributory principle for the welfare state, which is another tough policy that people shy away from.
I was at university with Kwasi, and rate him very highly.
Yes. She'd be great. A refreshing change. She's also kept her head down about the EU....
"Ruth Davidson will campaign to remain in the European Union even if David Cameron fails in his bid to renegotiate the terms of Britain’s membership, she will indicate today in a major speech in Brussels."
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
When I lived in Germany, I had to take out compulsory private health insurance, but so do all the Germans. This proposal, on the other hand, sounds very close to discriminating against non-UK citizens, which obviously isn't allowed under EU/EEA rules. I can't see the EU tolerating a policy that is clearly designed to undermine the principle of free movement.
In round 1, the Remain Boxer has come in a frenzy and thrown punch after punch. The Leave boxer has had to defend and has wobbled but there has not been a knock out blow (if we say the polls are 55-45)
Round 2 is about to start. What will happen next? Maybe the remain boxer will keep going and the leave boxer will be knocked out or maybe remain will tire while leave finally starts to attack.
The hope for leave is that remain has used up most of its ammunition - no more govt reports with purdah starting; the world leaders and organisations have had their say.
Leave needs to take the chance to get on the front foot. Immigration has barely been mentioned and other arguments have not been heard at all:
The ECHR wanting to give prisoners the vote The difficulty of deporting people like Abu Qatada due to ECHR laws The fact the EU has not had its books signed off for x years The treatment of the PIGS and the massive youth unemployment Democratic govts being deposed in Greece and Italy The fact the EU demanded we pay more and Osborne paid up Juncker's election 25-2
Leave need to put the EU on trial and force remain to defend their behaviour.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
No, they would have cover with the EHIC as a tourist. Only those who seek an NI number would be subject to the residency test for NHS treatment.
So they either qualify as a non-resident, or they qualify as a resident?
I've long said that the Conservatives will be the first UK party to elect a black leader and the first to elect an openly non-straight leader, as well as all the historic firsts already chalked up.
That said, I'm not sure how the practicalities of an MSP becoming Tory leader work. I can't remember offhand whether leadership nominees have to be MPs. If so, that would severely limit her chances this side of 2020.
I think in the more devolved UK system that we are developing it would be great if we could have a Tory leader who was an MSP (or even and AM) but how the practicalities of that would work are beyond me.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
It isn't protectionism to choose which immigrant skills we need. We are more than capable of training our own coffee shop workers and bar maids.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Iain Martin Retweeted Nick Bilton ✔ @nickbilton The people who say we shouldn't worry about AI and robots taking people's jobs, are the people whose jobs won't be lost to AI and robots.
I CARE ABOUT THIS REFERENDUM MUCH MORE THAN I EXPECTED
As anyone who read my comments from last night will attest: I am quite upset. Indeed, I am borderline psychotic with anger. Because LEAVE is losing.
But I have no idea why I am so overwrought, so consumed with bitterness. After all, I have said all along that REMAIN will win quite easily, and I've never diverted from that. My NOJAM prediction was 56.3 REMAIN and 43.7 LEAVE. Therefore, what I have long predicted is simply coming to pass, and yet I am surprisingly and emotionally roiled, at the sight of my country and its people being bullied and betrayed.
For that is what it looks like to me, and that is what I feel. And if I am feeling this, many more must feel the same. I now understand the passions that so exercised the Cybernats. There is something about referendums on Nationality which strike deep and primal chords, concepts of identity and loyalty, and the result is explosive.
What does this mean? It surely means war on the right. I sincerely believe people like TSE, Nabavi and Meeks, and their equivalents in the wider world, are quislings. Traitors. Just the worst. They have betrayed my country, my daughter's country. I loathe them. I'm not sure I will ever be able to sit down and have a civil discussion with them again.
Or they me, presumably, after what I have said.
It also means the European boil, far from being lanced by this vote, will suppurate and eventually turn poisonous, particularly as the EU will gleefully come for more of our sovereignty, the moment we meekly vote REMAIN (and the REMAINIANS know this, which is possibly the worst of their lies, and what makes them such vermin).
Lastly, it means I need to get a life. It's a beautiful day, I am rich and lucky, my older daughter is ten this very day, her sister will be ten next week. They are happy and healthy.
Yet I sit on here hating people. Really hating them. Not good, not good. But there it is.
Now I can have breakfast. My name is Sean and I'm a LEAVER. Hello Sean.
And when you thought it couldn't get any worse the Groucho Club chose to go shabby chic and serve their muesli out of 1950's earthenware bowls
It isn't protectionism to choose which immigrant skills we need. We are more than capable of training our own coffee shop workers and bar maids.
One of the most important lessons any economics student learns is that tariffs are better than quotas - not least because governments are terrible at assessing what the right needs are.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Exactly right.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
Well I'll use one of my second-cousins as an example.
Not the brightest of lads, got pretty awful grades at his first attempt doing A-Levels, the advice from his parents was to resit and the school just went along with it. In Switzerland after that first attempt he would not have been able to resit the Matura (their A-Levels) and been bumped down to trade or technical school in order to study for an apprenticeship. Over here he is about to sit them again and he is going to try and get into some third rate university, I've told him to look at the trades, he has the skills to be a carpenter or electrician and there is a huge, huge shortage of both in London. However, he has his mind set on going to Leeds Met (who offered him a place on some finance something or other with DDE grades) and taking out £40-50k worth of loans to get it, and the end up unemployed after he finishes because no one will bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate. That's if he makes the grade.
In another country, the option of A-Levels and university would no longer be open to him, harsh as that sounds, we need to start becoming slightly more elitist with university degrees and slightly less elitist about trade and technical schools/qualifications.
In round 1, the Remain Boxer has come in a frenzy and thrown punch after punch. The Leave boxer has had to defend and has wobbled but there has not been a knock out blow (if we say the polls are 55-45)
Round 2 is about to start. What will happen next? Maybe the remain boxer will keep going and the leave boxer will be knocked out or maybe remain will tire while leave finally starts to attack.
The hope for leave is that remain has used up most of its ammunition - no more govt reports with purdah starting; the world leaders and organisations have had their say.
Leave needs to take the chance to get on the front foot. Immigration has barely been mentioned and other arguments have not been heard at all:
The ECHR wanting to give prisoners the vote The difficulty of deporting people like Abu Qatada due to ECHR laws The fact the EU has not had its books signed off for x years The treatment of the PIGS and the massive youth unemployment Democratic govts being deposed in Greece and Italy The fact the EU demanded we pay more and Osborne paid up Juncker's election 25-2
Leave need to put the EU on trial and force remain to defend their behaviour.
The full frontal heavy artillery bombardment from HMG should end on Friday.
We will then move to the phase where Leave is peppered with canister shot, and pellets, from a variety of other angles for the next four weeks.
Good news is: debates haven't started yet, and neither has the literature gone out yet.
So there could still be an appetite for some level of swingback to Leave.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The Janan Ganesh article is vapid bilge of the worst sort. One of the reasons I am for LEAVE is because I do not believe the working class people of this country can or should endure unchecked and unstoppable mass immigration from low-wage Europe for much longer.
It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs.
See. I'm angry again. Really really really angry. If only I could divert this energy into finding a plot for my next book. lol
Totally with you here, I simply don't understand how flooding the UK with self-selecting immigrants is right. It's our homegrown disadvantaged that are being actively hurt by it - more ambitious, better educated and cheaper new arrivals are filling 4/5ths of new jobs.
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
You voted for a government that has cut the public services the disadvantaged rely on to the bone and you cheered it on as it did so; the same government whose economic and fiscal strategy - based on EU membership and high levels of immigration - you used to laud.
cut to the bone - I mean really ? walking through Birmingham I don't really see that much of a Dickensian landscape.
There are jobs about if you want one but we still have 1.8 million unemployed. HMG has imposed a wage rise on the nation ( which will attract more low caost immigrants ). But abject poverty not really.
Is this kind of polling counterproductive to Remain? Could inspire complacency, reducing turnout. If we see much more of this it could be the reverse of Sindyref, where the last minute vows and pleading managed to inspire a sense of urgency amongst unionists. Can't see many young glasto student types voting if it looks like a done deal.
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
No, they would have cover with the EHIC as a tourist. Only those who seek an NI number would be subject to the residency test for NHS treatment.
So they either qualify as a non-resident, or they qualify as a resident?
No, because in order to get an NI number as a non-resident NHS insurance fees must be paid. Are you thick or just being obtuse?
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The
The .
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes,
This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard on pb. Ever. I was a crazy nihilistic irresponsible son of a bitch in the 20s. Clearly. I might have been amusing in parts but I was also a wanker. I will confess to this.
But I'm really not going to take PERSONAL responsibility for the global decline in median wages of the working poor across the West, accelerated by the process of globalisation and, in the EU, mass unchecked immigration. Sorry. Maybe its capitalist pig dogs like you that are to blame. Exploiter!
Etc. It's ridiculous.
Of course you won't take responsibility for what you helped to create. But Polish plumbers didn't spawn the drug gangs that blight working class communities up and down the UK. The people who craved drugs did that.
IF YOU EVER HAD A DRINK YOU CAUSED ALCOHOLISM IN NEWCASTLE
I'm afraid there are no gangs of alcohol peddlers running around terrorising communities. You helped screw up Tottenham and all the other places you used to go to get your fixes. There's no getting round it, I'm afraid. You actively helped to make parts of this country much more unpleasant places to live in than they used to be. And the people most affected by your actions have been working class.
Iain Martin Retweeted Nick Bilton ✔ @nickbilton The people who say we shouldn't worry about AI and robots taking people's jobs, are the people whose jobs won't be lost to AI and robots.
This thread reminds me of many in 2012 and 2013 where it was argued that a tory majority was not just unlikely it was impossible. The polls showed are just too many lib dem switchers, labour will just do too well in the marginals.
Indeed anybody who suggested the polls might be wrong was subject to insults and scorn, and it got to the point where those of us who had a hunch the polls were garbage were afraid to post because, well, life's too short.
It really feels like that today.
Of course, many of those doing the insulting and scorning today were those betting on the lib dem switchers in 2013. That turned out to be a catastrophic strategy.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
Iain Martin Retweeted Nick Bilton ✔ @nickbilton The people who say we shouldn't worry about AI and robots taking people's jobs, are the people whose jobs won't be lost to AI and robots.
No. But, we all should prepare our children for the changes that are coming. Smaller self employed folk nimble to adjust to the changes is IMHO the best for our children.
Mr. Observer, and yet the taxes Mr. T now contributes must greatly outweigh any cost of medical care (or, er, special attention from the rozzers), no?
There is more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repenteth, etc.
I also don't think having previously done bad things means one cannot express an opinion on the EU. If a vegicidal cactus murderer can become deputy PM, I think Mr. T has the right to express his views on the EU.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
Only in his head.
Who knows, when it comes to the Vienna Convention, the EU might say 'this means nothing to me'
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
Well the former certainly have the right to stay if our Government says so. And if the French and Spanish want to kick out the Brits, then so be it.
OK so the message of that one is Eton Posh Boy couldnt wipe his own arse.
Seems to be a theme at Eton.
It takes an Irishman to sum up in one sentence something which takes SEAN at least a chapter.
I had Scott Paster all wrong. Initially I thought he was Tory but now I realise he's a Corbynite cyberguerilla. His posts on the omnishambles which is the current Tories are brilliant ( though occasionally need interpretation ).
We can certainly do it in EFTA/EEA, and I think certain variations on it would be achievable in the EU.
It would also be achievable within the EU. We need to make NHS access dependent on residency status, all non-residents would pay for private insurance or NHS insurance in order to be granted work permits. The only downside is that returning ex-pats would probably also get hit, and I don't know how it would work for overseas citizens who depend on the NHS to pay their foreign medical bills. However, it is definitely possible within the EU.
So you'd leave French tourists to die on the street? It's definitely not possible within the EU.
No, they would have cover with the EHIC as a tourist. Only those who seek an NI number would be subject to the residency test for NHS treatment.
So they either qualify as a non-resident, or they qualify as a resident?
No, because in order to get an NI number as a non-resident NHS insurance fees must be paid. Are you thick or just being obtuse?
It's not me advocating a pointless and unworkable scheme.
It isn't protectionism to choose which immigrant skills we need. We are more than capable of training our own coffee shop workers and bar maids.
Well the problem is that we aren't doing that. Our education system is geared towards 50% of students going to university rather than 50% going to university or trade school. There are so many students out there sitting exams right now who are going to get shit A-Level grades and go to third rate universities, pay £9k per year to do so and end up with £45k worth of debt, then become unemployed because no employer will take them on because they have a third rate degree. What you are suggesting is that the cause of this person's unemployment is an employer not hiring them, what I am suggesting is that it is a combination of life choices and the education system. Closing up the border and reducing immigration won't solve the problem, it will likely just cause wage inflation at the bottom end of the market and lock these people out completely from finding any kind of work, exacerbating the crisis of worklessness and the creation of an underclass.
Again, I'm not generally in favour of protectionism, we need to solve the root cause, in Switzerland unemployment is ~3% and youth unemployment is ~5%, these are among the lowest rates in the world where statistics can be trusted. Their education system puts out young people who have the skills and work ethic to succeed in the market place, they also have the same immigration rules as we do. What are they doing right that only 5% of young people are out of work that we are doing wrong so 14% of our young people are out of work? That's the question that needs answering.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Exactly right.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
Well I'll use one of my second-cousins as an example.
Not the brightest of lads, got pretty awful grades at his first attempt doing A-Levels, the advice from his parents was to resit and the school just went along with it. In Switzerland after that first attempt he would not have been able to resit the Matura (their A-Levels) and been bumped down to trade or technical school in order to study for an apprenticeship. Over here he is about to sit them again and he is going to try and get into some third rate university, I've told him to look at the trades, he has the skills to be a carpenter or electrician and there is a huge, huge shortage of both in London. However, he has his mind set on going to Leeds Met (who offered him a place on some finance something or other with DDE grades) and taking out £40-50k worth of loans to get it, and the end up unemployed after he finishes because no one will bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate. That's if he makes the grade.
In another country, the option of A-Levels and university would no longer be open to him, harsh as that sounds, we need to start becoming slightly more elitist with university degrees and slightly less elitist about trade and technical schools/qualifications.
Mainly right but it is unfortunate that many employers won't "bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate". Too many consider just three universities: Oxbridge and their own alma mater.
For those no good with their hands and therefore unsafe to wield a screwdriver, besides trades, another route often unconsidered is retail. Large retailers generally have very good internal training.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not as though Boris, Gove and IDS are going to need to worry about any economic downturn.
I am realistic enough to know that the economic future is uncertain either way but I think the FT hit the nail on the head when they said that it is the fact that most Brexiters dot seem to care if leaving the EU has a negative effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
No - a possible temporary negative affect on people, that we can overcome, and that leads to a far more positive effect for people - is the benefit of Brexit.
It's only the Remainians that are alarming.
Can I politely propose (feel free to ignore me) we use Remainiacs (Re-maniacs) instead of Remainians - the parallel with Romanians unsettles me. To this day I'm not sure if such a parallel is intentional from whoever started it.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
That does raise the interesting question of whether the Remain campaign have made inroads into getting ex-pats to register and vote. Does anyone know?
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The
The .
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes,
This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard on pb. Ever. I was a crazy nihilistic irresponsible son of a bitch in the 20s. Clearly. I might have been amusing in parts but I was also a wanker. I will confess to this.
But I'm really not going to take PERSONAL responsibility for the global decline in median wages of the working poor across the West, accelerated by the process of globalisation and, in the EU, mass unchecked immigration. Sorry. Maybe its capitalist pig dogs like you that are to blame. Exploiter!
Etc. It's ridiculous.
IF YOU EVER HAD A DRINK YOU CAUSED ALCOHOLISM IN NEWCASTLE
I
OK. I'll come quietly. It's my fault. EVERYTHING. I am responsible for EVERYTHING. I can only apologise. I will do penance by paying more personal taxes than anyone else on this site. Oh, wait, I quite possibly do.
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Exactly right.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
Well I'll use one of my second-cousins as an example.
Not the brightest of lads, got pretty awful grades at his first attempt doing A-Levels, the advice from his parents was to resit and the school just went along with it. In Switzerland after that first attempt he would not have been able to resit the Matura (their A-Levels) and been bumped down to trade or technical school in order to study for an apprenticeship. Over here he is about to sit them again and he is going to try and get into some third rate university, I've told him to look at the trades, he has the skills to be a carpenter or electrician and there is a huge, huge shortage of both in London. However, he has his mind set on going to Leeds Met (who offered him a place on some finance something or other with DDE grades) and taking out £40-50k worth of loans to get it, and the end up unemployed after he finishes because no one will bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate. That's if he makes the grade.
In another country, the option of A-Levels and university would no longer be open to him, harsh as that sounds, we need to start becoming slightly more elitist with university degrees and slightly less elitist about trade and technical schools/qualifications.
Mainly right but it is unfortunate that many employers won't "bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate". Too many consider just three universities: Oxbridge and their own alma mater.
For those no good with their hands and therefore unsafe to wield a screwdriver, besides trades, another route often unconsidered is retail. Large retailers generally have very good internal training.
They have retail apprenticeships in Switzerland which retailers recruit from.
This thread reminds me of many in 2012 and 2013 where it was argued that a tory majority was not just unlikely it was impossible. The polls showed are just too many lib dem switchers, labour will just do too well in the marginals.
Indeed anybody who suggested the polls might be wrong was subject to insults and scorn, and it got to the point where those of us who had a hunch the polls were garbage were afraid to post because, well, life's too short.
It really feels like that today.
Of course, many of those doing the insulting and scorning today were those betting on the lib dem switchers in 2013. That turned out to be a catastrophic strategy.
Quite. I thought the daily diet of LDs Winning Here was very misleading and led to many poor betting choices.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
That does raise the interesting question of whether the Remain campaign have made inroads into getting ex-pats to register and vote. Does anyone know?
I'm afraid there are no gangs of alcohol peddlers running around terrorising communities. You helped screw up Tottenham and all the other places you used to go to get your fixes. There's no getting round it, I'm afraid. You actively helped to make parts of this country much more unpleasant places to live in than they used to be. And the people most affected by your actions have been working class.
OK. I'll come quietly. It's my fault. EVERYTHING. I am responsible for EVERYTHING. I can only apologise. I will do penance by paying more personal taxes than anyone else on this site. Oh, wait, I quite possibly do.
You're still a traitor. Etc.
if most of the money to be made from selling drugs was to be made from middle class tossers, why were the dealers hanging around in Tottenham, rather than going to where the customers were?
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The
The .
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes,
This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard on pb. Ever. I was a crazy nihilistic irresponsible son of a bitch in the 20s. Clearly. I might have been amusing in parts but I was also a wanker. I will confess to this.
But I'm really not going to take PERSONAL responsibility for the global decline in median wages of the working poor across the West, accelerated by the process of globalisation and, in the EU, mass unchecked immigration. Sorry. Maybe its capitalist pig dogs like you that are to blame. Exploiter!
Etc. It's ridiculous.
IF YOU EVER HAD A DRINK YOU CAUSED ALCOHOLISM IN NEWCASTLE
I
OK. I'll come quietly. It's my fault. EVERYTHING. I am responsible for EVERYTHING. I can only apologise. I will do penance by paying more personal taxes than anyone else on this site. Oh, wait, I quite possibly do.
You're still a traitor. Etc.
Sean, Sun.....OUT! Now.
I know, I know. Hah. But Southam is being interestingly bonkers and ad hom. Something is up. It intrigues.
OK I am going to STOP CARING ABOUT THE REFERENDUM AS PROMISED. FOR A BIT.
but wait, traitors
NO
quisli
NO
Endex.
could I interest you in some qinoa eating surrender monkeys ?
OK so the message of that one is Eton Posh Boy couldnt wipe his own arse.
Seems to be a theme at Eton.
It takes an Irishman to sum up in one sentence something which takes SEAN at least a chapter.
Is that why one is a successful businessman and the other a successful author?
LOL you haven't seen my sales budget for June - dire - a real Osborne of a month and none of my customers are remotely affected by the EU ref they're all domestic as I reported on my PMI form yesterday.
Would you really choose the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy because you are worried about one year long recession? That is huge short termism in my opinion and is regrettable.
And people wonder why Brexiteers get labelled extreme...
"the defacto end of nation-state parliamentary democracy" is not on the ballot paper, and if a year long recession meant I might lose my job or home (which is what the article is about) then yes, I would have pause for thought.
Exactly it's not effect on lots of peoples livelihoods that is alarming.
The
The .
Lol. So it's actually MY fault the working classes are screwed, because I was a halfwit addict and used to score smack in Northumberland Park, off some pasty-faced dealer?
Chortle. Ta. You've cheered me up.
Yes,
This is the most ludicrous argument I have ever heard on pb. Ever. I was a crazy nihilistic irresponsible son of a bitch in the 20s. Clearly. I might have been amusing in parts but I was also a wanker. I will confess to this.
But I'm really not going to take PERSONAL responsibility for the global decline in median Maybe its capitalist pig dogs like you that are to blame. Exploiter!
Etc. It's ridiculous.
Of course you won't take responsibility for up and down the UK. The people who craved drugs did that.
IF YOU EVER HAD A DRINK YOU CAUSED ALCOHOLISM IN NEWCASTLE
I'm afraid there are no gangs of alcohol peddlers running around terrorising communities. And the people most affected by your actions have been working class.
OK. I'll come quietly. It's my fault. EVERYTHING. I am responsible for EVERYTHING. I can only apologise. I will do penance by paying more personal taxes than anyone else on this site. Oh, wait, I quite possibly do.
You're still a traitor. Etc.
Yes, you have directly contributed to the ruination of working class communities where drug gangs now hold sway. You have helped to cause more active misery among members of the working class than most on here - perhaps anyone. I am glad you are beginning to understand that. Your hefty tax bills of recent years are part of the atonement process, but I reckon you could and should do more.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
That does raise the interesting question of whether the Remain campaign have made inroads into getting ex-pats to register and vote. Does anyone know?
Not to be too, err, elitist, surely that is a problem with our education system and attitude to work. As someone who has a fairly relaxed outlook on immigration I don't think protectionism is the answer, it will lead to a more sclerotic domestic labour market. What we need is better education and to ensure attitudes to work are changed, no more workless families, no more culture of worklessness. IDS was actually achieving some real changes through pretty harsh measures against worklessness, we'll see if his successor will continue down that path or give up and run away because it is a tough solution to a tough problem.
Exactly right.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
Well I'll use one of my second-cousins as an example.
Not the brightest of lads, got pretty awful grades at his first attempt doing A-Levels, the advice from his parents was to resit and the school just went along with it. In Switzerland after that first attempt he would not have been able to resit the Matura (their A-Levels) and been bumped down to trade or technical school in order to study for an apprenticeship. Over here he is about to sit them again and he is going to try and get into some third rate university, I've told him to look at the trades, he has the skills to be a carpenter or electrician and there is a huge, huge shortage of both in London. However, he has his mind set on going to Leeds Met (who offered him a place on some finance something or other with DDE grades) and taking out £40-50k worth of loans to get it, and the end up unemployed after he finishes because no one will bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate. That's if he makes the grade.
In another country, the option of A-Levels and university would no longer be open to him, harsh as that sounds, we need to start becoming slightly more elitist with university degrees and slightly less elitist about trade and technical schools/qualifications.
The provision of trade/technical schools was first recommended by a parliamentary commission in 1874. It was actually legislated for in the 1944 Education Act. But it has never happened, at least not to any extent - a few technical schools did exist in the fifties and sixties. Why not? Well, the educational establishment never wanted them, so they never happened and we are left with an education system quite unsuited to the needs of advanced economy and which fails the majority of children.
It is a national disgrace but one no politician will even attempt to fix and few will even acknowledge exists.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
Only in his head.
Not at all. Vote Leave are advocating leaving the EU and the EEA, which is the arrangement that allows EU citizens to live in the UK and vice versa. In all probability some sort of deal would be done but that is not certain - which my definition makes it "uncertain"
In round 1, the Remain Boxer has come in a frenzy and thrown punch after punch. The Leave boxer has had to defend and has wobbled but there has not been a knock out blow (if we say the polls are 55-45)
Round 2 is about to start. What will happen next? Maybe the remain boxer will keep going and the leave boxer will be knocked out or maybe remain will tire while leave finally starts to attack.
The hope for leave is that remain has used up most of its ammunition - no more govt reports with purdah starting; the world leaders and organisations have had their say.
Leave needs to take the chance to get on the front foot. Immigration has barely been mentioned and other arguments have not been heard at all:
The ECHR wanting to give prisoners the vote The difficulty of deporting people like Abu Qatada due to ECHR laws The fact the EU has not had its books signed off for x years The treatment of the PIGS and the massive youth unemployment Democratic govts being deposed in Greece and Italy The fact the EU demanded we pay more and Osborne paid up Juncker's election 25-2
Leave need to put the EU on trial and force remain to defend their behaviour.
The full frontal heavy artillery bombardment from HMG should end on Friday.
We will then move to the phase where Leave is peppered with canister shot, and pellets, from a variety of other angles for the next four weeks.
Good news is: debates haven't started yet, and neither has the literature gone out yet.
So there could still be an appetite for some level of swingback to Leave.
Another point I meant to add is that if the polls are currently 55-45 (ignoring dk), then leave only need to convince 1 in 10 remainers to switch. I don't see this as by any means impossible if you consider that remain voters are probably much less tribal than voters of the political parties are.
I also agree the debates are important. lots of coverage on a level playing field for leave, while remain won't just be able to talk about the economy.
Comments
But this argument that somehow the EU is going to 'snuff out democracy', 'replace Common law' (Scots law has survived 300+ years of 'oppression' (sic)) and somehow magically stop us having a referendum (technically we wouldn't even need one if a party won a majority on the basis of us leaving) is for the (somewhat hysterical) birds.....
Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that if the EU decided to try to impose the Euro on us, or face Turkish entry on us against our will there will simply be another referendum and we will exit at that point.
As it is stands all the doomsday scenarios about what will happen if we remain are no more than empty threats, which, in turn, results in our armed forces minister claiming we have no veto over Turkish entry to the UK. It's desperate stuff and we know it is.
Both sides are spinning scare stories. I wonder how many will vote on the basis that if the Remain scare stories are correct we are fu**ed and there is no going back but if the Leave scare stories are correct we have a second chance and can exit at a later date.
Ha
Haha
Hahahahahaha
Remainers are just ignoring this whole growing underclass, let them appear on Jeremy Kyle and eat crisps.
(I have seriously had a discussion on these lines re: EU ref with someone)
And now you are voting for something that will lead to the public services the same people rely on being cut even further by this government that you voted for.
But life is good - you are rich, so who cares?
That's not to say that there won't be problems arising from rebel MPs, given the small majority. But with Cameron due to depart anyway, the focus will shift from attacks on him to manoeuvring for position in terms of electing the next leader, and MPs will know that the only possible way of getting your favoured man or woman into the contest and potentially into No 10 will be to build as wide a range of support as possible.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1073.aspx?categoryid=68
'Scottish Conservative MSP Ruth Davidson refuses to rule out becoming an MP - or UK Tory leader'
http://tinyurl.com/h5lekpt
Above a 30% implied chance for the first time...
The true underclass is those people who have no employable skills or personal traits. They are not going to become more employable just because there are fewer immigrants because they are unemployable to start with.
http://order-order.com/2016/05/24/osborne-missed-borrowing-target-by-even-more-than-previously-thought/
But they don't see that they themselves are paying an enormous price in rent or mortgage for property because of immigration. They are being priced out of homes too. They aren't going to live as well as their parents and their children are going to live worse. If interest rates go up they wil be in serious trouble.
That said, I'm not sure how the practicalities of an MSP becoming Tory leader work. I can't remember offhand whether leadership nominees have to be MPs. If so, that would severely limit her chances this side of 2020.
"It's the fucking REMAINAINS who are dumping all over the poor. The REMAINIANS get cheap plumbers, so they think Sod the bigoted chavs."
This from the man, (if memory serves, and punch me if I'm wrong) who had to get a plumber to point out the efficacy of a rubber plunger to unblock a toilet.
We have a tax and benefits system that seems designed to discourage work, and an educational system that puts out people without the right skills.
Immigration is a symptom of that problem, and if we just treat the symptoms, we'll end up in an even worse position.
Most entertaining
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11880823/Ruth-Davidson-backs-EU-with-or-without-reform.html
I would look at this being like a boxing match.
In round 1, the Remain Boxer has come in a frenzy and thrown punch after punch. The Leave boxer has had to defend and has wobbled but there has not been a knock out blow (if we say the polls are 55-45)
Round 2 is about to start. What will happen next? Maybe the remain boxer will keep going and the leave boxer will be knocked out or maybe remain will tire while leave finally starts to attack.
The hope for leave is that remain has used up most of its ammunition - no more govt reports with purdah starting; the world leaders and organisations have had their say.
Leave needs to take the chance to get on the front foot. Immigration has barely been mentioned and other arguments have not been heard at all:
The ECHR wanting to give prisoners the vote
The difficulty of deporting people like Abu Qatada due to ECHR laws
The fact the EU has not had its books signed off for x years
The treatment of the PIGS and the massive youth unemployment
Democratic govts being deposed in Greece and Italy
The fact the EU demanded we pay more and Osborne paid up
Juncker's election 25-2
Leave need to put the EU on trial and force remain to defend their behaviour.
Nick Bilton ✔ @nickbilton
The people who say we shouldn't worry about AI and robots taking people's jobs, are the people whose jobs won't be lost to AI and robots.
Not the brightest of lads, got pretty awful grades at his first attempt doing A-Levels, the advice from his parents was to resit and the school just went along with it. In Switzerland after that first attempt he would not have been able to resit the Matura (their A-Levels) and been bumped down to trade or technical school in order to study for an apprenticeship. Over here he is about to sit them again and he is going to try and get into some third rate university, I've told him to look at the trades, he has the skills to be a carpenter or electrician and there is a huge, huge shortage of both in London. However, he has his mind set on going to Leeds Met (who offered him a place on some finance something or other with DDE grades) and taking out £40-50k worth of loans to get it, and the end up unemployed after he finishes because no one will bother to hire a Leeds Met graduate. That's if he makes the grade.
In another country, the option of A-Levels and university would no longer be open to him, harsh as that sounds, we need to start becoming slightly more elitist with university degrees and slightly less elitist about trade and technical schools/qualifications.
We will then move to the phase where Leave is peppered with canister shot, and pellets, from a variety of other angles for the next four weeks.
Good news is: debates haven't started yet, and neither has the literature gone out yet.
So there could still be an appetite for some level of swingback to Leave.
There are jobs about if you want one but we still have 1.8 million unemployed. HMG has imposed a wage rise on the nation ( which will attract more low caost immigrants ). But abject poverty not really.
https://twitter.com/UrsaMal/status/734743923885772800
"He returned to pay the asking price of £1,495 by card."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/david-cameron-buys-used-1495-nissan-micra-for-his-wife-samantha-a7043326.html
No haggling, no negotiating for full tank of petrol, just rolls up and pays the asking price.
Seems to be a theme at Eton.
Indeed anybody who suggested the polls might be wrong was subject to insults and scorn, and it got to the point where those of us who had a hunch the polls were garbage were afraid to post because, well, life's too short.
It really feels like that today.
Of course, many of those doing the insulting and scorning today were those betting on the lib dem switchers in 2013. That turned out to be a catastrophic strategy.
@rowenamason: Cameron says there's "uncertainty" over whether EU citizens in UK + UK citizens in EU have right to stay where they are in event of Brexit
There is more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repenteth, etc.
I also don't think having previously done bad things means one cannot express an opinion on the EU. If a vegicidal cactus murderer can become deputy PM, I think Mr. T has the right to express his views on the EU.
Again, I'm not generally in favour of protectionism, we need to solve the root cause, in Switzerland unemployment is ~3% and youth unemployment is ~5%, these are among the lowest rates in the world where statistics can be trusted. Their education system puts out young people who have the skills and work ethic to succeed in the market place, they also have the same immigration rules as we do. What are they doing right that only 5% of young people are out of work that we are doing wrong so 14% of our young people are out of work? That's the question that needs answering.
@iainjwatson: Tony Blair says David Cameron's standing in europe will be enhanced if we vote to stay in #EU @prospect_uk https://t.co/SYLqrRoWcZ
For those no good with their hands and therefore unsafe to wield a screwdriver, besides trades, another route often unconsidered is retail. Large retailers generally have very good internal training.
http://app.ft.com/cms/s/e9e16b1a-1d18-11e6-8fa5-44094f6d9c46.html
It is a national disgrace but one no politician will even attempt to fix and few will even acknowledge exists.
I also agree the debates are important. lots of coverage on a level playing field for leave, while remain won't just be able to talk about the economy.