Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
Given the relative accuracy of Yougov's Wales polling I think we can reasonably assume their polling on the EU referendum is there or thereabouts. They are flitting between In and Out.
The general Scottish polling however, was ladled heavily with overstatement of SNP and Green. That would point to an overstatement of Remain, I'd guess.
Exercise caution with face to face polling and phone polling in Scotland. It was among the least accurate for calling the end result.
I suppose moving from 'civilized people who opposed fascism and Nazism without allying themselves or joining an equally revolting and totalitarian movement, which is what Communism was: Arthur Koestler and George Orwell, for instance' to 'his experiences with it led him to reject it' is progress of a sort.
They are examples and yes I had forgotten that Koestler had been a Communist so thank you for reminding me.
But it remains the case that Communism was a revolting ideology and that there were plenty of people who opposed Nazism without needing to join its left-wing equivalent. Communism has no claim to the moral high ground: it killed and oppressed millions of people and for far longer than Nazism and Fascism. What is puzzling is how there are still people - some of them apparently clever - who are still prepared to indulge and excuse it. It was not something good which went a bit bad. It was fundamentally bad - ab initio, as we lawyers like to say.
Incidentally, as a lawyer I expect to be paid to make whatever arguments will help my clients. I'm quite willing to do so for any on here. I could - for an enormous fee - pretty much argue anything from any point of view. Just saying..... A girl has gotta live.
Remember the charming Eric Hobsbawm replying in the affirmative when asked whether it was worth killing millions of people to achieve Communism? You may also remember the BBC's near-hagiography of the man when he finally passed away.
Yes. Or the fact that the leader of one of the two main parties can make speeches in front of Communist symbols with barely a word of protest whereas if a political leader were to do so in front of swastikas we'd - rightly - be appalled.
As someone once said when told (re Communism) that to create an omelette you need to break eggs: "Well, I see a lot of broken eggs around here. Where's the omelette?"
There has always been a horrible double standard on this issue, in the Guardian universe.
I can remember as a teenager & young adult in the 1980s the Labour-voting parents of some of my schoolfriends (mostly teachers or County Hall pen-pushers) defending the USSR for 'abolishing unemployment' and similar and playing down the USSR's appalling human rights record (even suggesting the dreaded 'Thatcher' was worse...).
Mr. Eagles, that would require either a Leave vote or a massive Remain vote.
The former means Cameron has failed (in the manner of Constantius II when he brought peace to the empire and ended the civil war by dying). The latter seems less likely than it was.
Mr. Eagles, if Boris believes the Antonine (or Golden Age of Imperial Rome) period is behind us, then we're into the realm of Commodus, Caracalla and Maximinus Thrax.
I need to finish off the thread where I compare Cameron to Augustus.
I can quite imagine Cameron stumbling along the halls of Parliament sobbing
'People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to. They resent the interference in our national life by what they see as unnecessary rules and regulation. And they wonder what the point of it all is. Put simply, many ask 'why can't we just have what we voted to join - a common market?'
David Cameron
And the result of his negotiations................no change carry on as before.
And in his own words 'people still wonder what was the point of it all'.
Apparently the answer to the question is "because it'll lead to a massive war." So I guess it wasn't rhetorical after all.
@Luckyguy1983 I have plenty of views, all my own, none of them directed or paid for by foreign governments. Would that all posters on pb could say the same.
Says the bloke who bleats about conspiracies
Remainers don't have conspiracies, they have well founded suspicions.
"In a statement, Channel 4 said the Brexit Eurotrash show would bring together an assortment of “crazy continentals” from across Europe to remind the people of Britain that “without them, we really are just a very sad and insignificant little island with bad food and terrible teeth.”"
Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
If Boris flops against Corbyn/Corbyn does better than anticipated, that's Boris' chances of being next Tory leader down the pan. And he's already having a poor campaign so far.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
'People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to. They resent the interference in our national life by what they see as unnecessary rules and regulation. And they wonder what the point of it all is. Put simply, many ask 'why can't we just have what we voted to join - a common market?'
David Cameron
Because without political union there will be economic Armageddon, World War III, the abolition of all Science and Art and the destruction of the natural environment.
"the TV stations are said to be lining up Corbyn to face Boris in the big TV debate. Yes. Corbyn."
Oh my.
I'm pretty confident I can predict the winner of that debate;
Jeremy 500/1 Boris 250/1 Dave 1/100
If Boris shellacks Jezza, and it send u to an "out" vote, well I can't see how that is good for Dave.
High stakes for both but Corbyn will not be a walk over and Boris needs to be careful otherwise he could be damaged. David Cameron the winner by keeping out of it
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
If Boris flops against Corbyn/Corbyn does better than anticipated, that's Boris' chances of being next Tory leader down the pan. And he's already having a poor campaign so far.
I did a headcount (well WhatsApp count) recently among Tory members that I know, out of the 22, only 3 would vote for Boris in a final two vs Cameron, 6 vs May and 15 vs Osborne. Mix was 14 Leave, 6 Remain, 2 DK. I may put Osborne forwards in a couple of scenarios if people want to suggest opponents.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
Pretentious twerp.
An EU apologist accusing others of being 'authoritarian...'
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
It might be difficult, but I wonder if you could get any further up your own arse
Pomposity and bluster won't work against Corbyn. In fact it is a clever move to place a genuine anti establishment man who appeals to the young leftish voters Remain need to get out and vote against the flustering old Etonian fraud
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
I hope in the event of a Remain victory, Leavers respect the will of the people. We'll have had two referendums, several general elections of political parties at various stages wanting to Leave, and the voters rejecting them.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
It's reasonable to assume that the referendum will settle the matter, either way. People will accept the result; that doesn't mean changing their views, but it does mean not fighting over the issue.
I suppose if it's a very close result, that might be less true, but I don't think there's going to be any appetite for a rerun of this. People are fed up with it already, and there's another 40+ days to go of claim and counter-claim.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
With the greatest respect there is a Country to govern and post the referendum the Country will expect the Government to move on, it is not all about Europe
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
So you're blithely happy to smear another poster as being in the pay of a foreign power until called out on it, whereupon you back off, say that wasn't the issue and they never should have held such views anyway. Delightful.
I'm not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum, but I'm happy to establish who I am to a trusted third party, who can hopefully put an end to the smearing, if not get a graceful apology from those concerned.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
I think Leave would probably do that.
So would a substanial Remain victory
At this point in time I think Leave has a slightly higher probability than a substantial (60%+) Remain vote. Even with a last minute swing to Remain I think we're looking at a 53-56% Remain vote based on the current polls. There was on poll which had a forced choice and it showed that the DKs/WNVs broke pretty evenly as well, so it may not be the same as Scotland where almost all the DKs were shy Unionists in the end.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Surely any one on one debates should be blue on blue and red on red?
It is not about the Conservative or Labour Parties - it is the Remain v Leave supporters of all faiths and none and one of the debates I understand will be a panel of three from each side, though there does seem to be some doubt if it will go ahead immediately pre the vote
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
If it is a large win for Remain then you would assume the issue of our membership will be settled for quite some time. However since the EU is continually evolving there will be plenty of things to disagree about. I received my pamphlet from the government yesterday, entirely bilingual, which explained how we were special and had opted out of further EU integration. No doubt at the same time Cameron is working to complete the single market.....
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
I hope in the event of a Remain victory, Leavers respect the will of the people. We'll have had two referendums, several general elections of political parties at various stages wanting to Leave, and the voters rejecting them.
I will, but if, as I suspect, the EU just continue as normal and force us into more ever closer union measures despite Dave's dodgy opt-out then the issue won't die. Do you trust the EU? I don't.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
This is another one of irregular verbs isn't it?
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
I hope in the event of a Remain victory, Leavers respect the will of the people. We'll have had two referendums, several general elections of political parties at various stages wanting to Leave, and the voters rejecting them.
I respect any democratic verdict but that doesn't mean I will stop campaigning for what I believe to be right. The only way that changes is if my own views change.
I will, of course, take a view on what the right course of action might be depending upon both the result, its margin, and the campaign, as will others.
What you really want is to eurosceptics to shut up, go away and never speak of it again.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
With the greatest respect there is a Country to govern and post the referendum the Country will expect the Government to move on, it is not all about Europe
I'm afraid this issue won't go away, much as head-in-the-sand types like yourself would like it to.
And that is because it is incredibly important, and goes to the very heart of both national identity and what it means to live in a democratic society.
The EU started for the UK as an itch, progressed to a nasty sore and will end up being a suppurating ulcer.
That is because the EU has steadily increased its importance over the most fundamental aspects of how we make decisions in our society - and will continue to do so unless we leave it.
The only way this issue will be solved is by exit or by some Damascene conversion of the UK population to the process of creating and being absorbed into a United States of Europe.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
I hope in the event of a Remain victory, Leavers respect the will of the people. We'll have had two referendums, several general elections of political parties at various stages wanting to Leave, and the voters rejecting them.
I will, but if, as I suspect, the EU just continue as normal and force us into more ever closer union measures despite Dave's dodgy opt-out then the issue won't die. Do you trust the EU? I don't.
I believe that someday the EU will either become more democratic or die. It may be that we will leave eventually, and I would support it, but I do not think that time is now, it seems too premature
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
Koestler was a member of the German Communist party.
And his experiences with it led him to reject it. Something which it took a lot of other very clever people a lot longer to do, despite the evidence being there. It was not necessary to be a Communist to stand up for liberal democracy against fascism and Nazism. Indeed, if you really were in favour of Parliamentary liberal democracy, the last thing you would have supported was Communism. The tragedy of the 30's was that liberal democracy did not have strong supporters. That is a lesson for us now, too.
I suppose moving from 'civilized people who opposed fascism and Nazism without allying themselves or joining an equally revolting and totalitarian movement, which is what Communism was: Arthur Koestler and George Orwell, for instance' to 'his experiences with it led him to reject it' is progress of a sort.
They are examples and yes I had forgotten that Koestler had been a Communist so thank you for reminding me.
But it remains the case that Communism was a revolting ideology and that there were plenty of people who opposed Nazism without needing to join its left-wing equivalent. Communism has no claim to the moral high ground: it killed and oppressed millions of people and for far longer than Nazism and Fascism. What is puzzling is how there are still people - some of them apparently clever - who are still prepared to indulge and excuse it. It was not something good which went a bit bad. It was fundamentally bad - ab initio, as we lawyers like to say.
Incidentally, as a lawyer I expect to be paid to make whatever arguments will help my clients. I'm quite willing to do so for any on here. I could - for an enormous fee - pretty much argue anything from any point of view. Just saying..... A girl has gotta live.
Remember the charming Eric Hobsbawm replying in the affirmative when asked whether it was worth killing millions of people to achieve Communism? You may also remember the BBC's near-hagiography of the man when he finally passed away.
The grotesque facts never got in the way of Eric Hobsbawm’s devotion to communism.
Seumas' ideal job would be revising down gulag numbers.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
With the greatest respect there is a Country to govern and post the referendum the Country will expect the Government to move on, it is not all about Europe
I'm afraid this issue won't go away, much as head-in-the-sand types like yourself would like it to.
And that is because it is incredibly important, and goes to the very heart of both national identity and what it means to live in a democratic society.
The EU started for the UK as an itch, progressed to a nasty sore and will end up being a suppurating ulcer.
That is because the EU has steadily increased its importance over the most fundamental aspects of how we make decisions in our society - and will continue to do so unless we leave it.
The only way this issue will be solved is by exit or by some Damascene conversion of the UK population to the process of creating and being absorbed into a United States of Europe.
You can make your argument but 'head in the sands' just shows you up as someone who cannot help but use insults to try to make your argument. They are not necessary
Today, the cost of breaking the peace is too high with or without the EU, the work is already done, we import and export too much to each other to even consider the idea of war with each other.
That's dangerous complacency. Look at Russia and Ukraine.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
This is another one of irregular verbs isn't it?
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
You've compared Leavers to the IRA. And 'you Leavers' is regularly used by you to smear despite the fact that you were a polite and engaged Leave sympathiser six months ago, and said your 'heart was for Leave'.
You led me straight up the garden path. It was predicted you might welch, but no one expected your behaviour to be as outrageous as it has been. You're lucky I'm restrained about what I think about that.
You've been found out: I've lost a lot of respect for you.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
With the greatest respect there is a Country to govern and post the referendum the Country will expect the Government to move on, it is not all about Europe
I understand that. None of what I wrote means i'm going to throw my toys out the pram and sabotage day to day Government of the U.K.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
This is another one of irregular verbs isn't it?
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
You've compared Leavers to the IRA. And 'you Leavers' is regularly used by you to smear despite the fact that you were a polite and engaged Leave sympathiser six months ago, and said your 'heart was for Leave'.
You led me straight up the garden path. It was predicted you might welch, but no one expected your behaviour to be as outrageous as it has been. You're lucky I'm restrained about what I think about that.
You've been found out: I've lost a lot of respect for you.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
And *go away* has already resulted in a lot of Kipper voters. Still, I'm sure Remainers following the Corbynista Eff Off You Red Tory strategy will work wonders.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
I am absolutely certain that you are not being paid by anyone, and the views you expound are entirely your own. But it is incontestable that they are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite with an inexplicable sympathy for aggressive authoritarians.
'People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to. They resent the interference in our national life by what they see as unnecessary rules and regulation. And they wonder what the point of it all is. Put simply, many ask 'why can't we just have what we voted to join - a common market?'
David Cameron
Because without political union there will be economic Armageddon, World War III, the abolition of all Science and Art and the destruction of the natural environment.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
I am absolutely certain that you are not being paid by anyone, and the views you expound are entirely your own. But it is incontestable that they are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite with an inexplicable sympathy for aggressive authoritarians.
No. Merely a recognition that they are sometimes preferable to the alternative.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
Just the yesterday I borrowed the Thick of It plot of a 'Disgruntled Civil Servant' in reference to Cam's WAR!!!!!!! speech pre-briefing to the press..
Now look what we've got - a 'Rogue marker' leaking Sats papers to the press.
Fact follows fiction. In fact, fact becomes a parody on fiction that is meant to be a parody on fact.
OK, say Remain win by 53-47, which is clear but appreciably smaller than in Scotland? What happens then? No one is asking the Leavers to somehow recant or disavow their beliefs. But surely it is reasonable, the British people having spoken, that the question of withdrawal should not be revisited for a reasonably long period - I don't know, perhaps 10 years or so?
Alistair Meeks thinks there are people in the Kremlin feverishly working out how to buy the opinions of below the line commenters on politicalbetting.com
I picture LuckyGuy waiting patiently by Whitechapel Tube for his daily "drop" from a man in an astrakhan coat. Or maybe he was seduced by one of those beautiful Slavic blonde spies, who *turned* him, at the Holiday Inn near Dagenham?
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
This is another one of irregular verbs isn't it?
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
You've compared Leavers to the IRA. And 'you Leavers' is regularly used by you to smear despite the fact that you were a polite and engaged Leave sympathiser six months ago, and said your 'heart was for Leave'.
You led me straight up the garden path. It was predicted you might welch, but no one expected your behaviour to be as outrageous as it has been. You're lucky I'm restrained about what I think about that.
You've been found out: I've lost a lot of respect for you.
I've also compared Remain to the IRA, David Cameron to William Joyce but people ignore that.
I've been consistent, I said I would vote for what I considered was in the best economic interests of the UK.
What Leave propose isn't in the best interests of the economy.
Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
So we have two poor debaters - one representing LEAVE who wants to REMAIN - and one who represents REMAIN, who wants to LEAVE.
LEAVE has several better debators. What they want is someone who is well known, knows how Europe runs, has constantly objected to it, is clued up with facts and can present them clearly. That IMHO reduces it to two.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
With the greatest respect there is a Country to govern and post the referendum the Country will expect the Government to move on, it is not all about Europe
I'm afraid this issue won't go away, much as head-in-the-sand types like yourself would like it to.
And that is because it is incredibly important, and goes to the very heart of both national identity and what it means to live in a democratic society.
The EU started for the UK as an itch, progressed to a nasty sore and will end up being a suppurating ulcer.
That is because the EU has steadily increased its importance over the most fundamental aspects of how we make decisions in our society - and will continue to do so unless we leave it.
The only way this issue will be solved is by exit or by some Damascene conversion of the UK population to the process of creating and being absorbed into a United States of Europe.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
I am absolutely certain that you are not being paid by anyone, and the views you expound are entirely your own. But it is incontestable that they are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite with an inexplicable sympathy for aggressive authoritarians.
Whose foreign policy has killed more innocent people in the last 15 years, America's, or Russia's?
I submit it is America, by an order of magnitude. And Putin doesn't drone so many weddings, either.
I always thought your first love in the authoritarian stakes was China.
OK, say Remain win by 53-47, which is clear but appreciably smaller than in Scotland? What happens then? No one is asking the Leavers to somehow recant or disavow their beliefs. But surely it is reasonable, the British people having spoken, that the question of withdrawal should not be revisited for a reasonably long period - I don't know, perhaps 10 years or so?
It really depends on whether the EU respects the deal, if two months after our vote the EUParl tables an EU Army from which we will have no opt-out and the ECJ rules in favour of it when we challenge it based on the the words "ever closer union of the European people" in the Treaty of Rome then I expect there to be a lot of talk of a second referendum.
Here is my exciting analysis of "luck" in the Scottish list.
Parties winning the final seat (#7) in a region could be said to have been a touch lucky. These fell:
Con 4 Green 3 Lab 1
Parties who would have won seat #8, if there were more list members, could be considered a bit unlucky:
Lab 4 SNP 2 Con 1 Green 1
What a tragic state of affairs, I'm sure you'll all agree.
Con +3 Green +2 SNP -2 Lab -3
SNP 65 Con 28 Lab 27 Lib Dem 5 Green 4
If I was living in said Country, I'd have much preferred to see an SNP majority rather than effectively a Green-SNP majority.
The biggest change is the Green/SNP "luck" switches - this will accelerate the process of the former 'original' SNP areas heading Tory whilst the stranglehold is kept in Glasgow and environs.
John Swinney won't be putting through any more Tory-lite budgets.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
Given Mr Meeks posted here for years under a pseudonym, this is the most bizarre form of attack by him.
I preferred his posts before his Id killed his Super Ego.
@Luckyguy1983 Until I know who "you" are, how can I accuse "you" of anything?
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
I absolutely hate Putin and can't understand those that have sympathy for him. I think he's the biggest menace to peace and freedom in Europe, not the EU.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
This is another one of irregular verbs isn't it?
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
You've compared Leavers to the IRA. And 'you Leavers' is regularly used by you to smear despite the fact that you were a polite and engaged Leave sympathiser six months ago, and said your 'heart was for Leave'.
You led me straight up the garden path. It was predicted you might welch, but no one expected your behaviour to be as outrageous as it has been. You're lucky I'm restrained about what I think about that.
You've been found out: I've lost a lot of respect for you.
I've also compared Remain to the IRA, David Cameron to William Joyce but people ignore that.
I've been consistent, I said I would vote for what I considered was in the best economic interests of the UK.
What Leave propose isn't in the best interests of the economy.
Sad but true.
What Osborne has proposed on a number of occasions hasn't been in the best interests of the economy, his u-turns have added billions to the national debt, you are still his number one cheerleader.
Unsurprising being told what to do by superannuated US defence bods is going down like more cold sick.
After the debacle over Obama's intervention, the electorate has become a lot savvier in spotting who's trying to play them like a fiddle for their own ends. And they're not playing.
The US wants us to stay in the EU because our voice pulls the whole EU closer to them, and their interests. They fear that without us in it the EU will become more protectionist and/or have a foreign policy less sympathetic to transatlantic perspectives.
Interests. Always interests.
That's the common perception here, probably because it's flattering to us. The truth is simpler: the US has an interest in peace, stability and democracy in Europe. The EU secures that so anything which weakens the EU is against US interests.
Just like the EU secured peace and democracy in Ukraine, Georgia and Serbia. Oh wait, they didn't.
Imagine a Europe where the EU didn't expand eastwards. Your examples of Ukraine, Georgia and Serbia could have been Lithuania, Poland and Hungary.
The EU is seen by the US as an indispensable factor in preventing a repeat of the conditions which dragged them into two world wars.
NATO:
"On 8 July 1997, three former communist countries, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland, were invited to join NATO, which each did in 1999. Membership went on expanding with the accession of seven more Central and Eastern European countries to NATO: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania."
These countries entered the EU from 2004 onwards, they were all already NATO members at the time of accession. Tell me again who was the arbiter of peace in Europe?
NATO protects against external threats. The EU protects against internal conflicts.
War between France ... Do you really think things couldn't escalate?
Are you really suggesting that two NATO members would go to war with each other? Sometimes it's hard to tell when the Remain side are making a serious argument or just being facetious.
Before it got to that point NATO would have broken up as well. A strong EU helps keep NATO strong. Military alliances without an underlying political coherency don't last.
Nato was founded in 1949. The EU was founded in 1993 - we have had 23 years with the EU and 67 with NATO - nearly 3 times as long.
OK, say Remain win by 53-47, which is clear but appreciably smaller than in Scotland? What happens then? No one is asking the Leavers to somehow recant or disavow their beliefs. But surely it is reasonable, the British people having spoken, that the question of withdrawal should not be revisited for a reasonably long period - I don't know, perhaps 10 years or so?
It really depends on whether the EU respects the deal, if two months after our vote the EUParl tables an EU Army from which we will have no opt-out and the ECJ rules in favour of it when we challenge it based on the the words "ever closer union of the European people" in the Treaty of Rome then I expect there to be a lot of talk of a second referendum.
I would agree in principle but wouldn't the existing referendum lock be invoked in any event?
Is the creation of an EU army from which we could not derogate a plausible scenario?
Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
So we have two poor debaters - one representing LEAVE who wants to REMAIN - and one who represents REMAIN, who wants to LEAVE.
LEAVE has several better debators. What they want is someone who is well known, knows how Europe runs, has constantly objected to it, is clued up with facts and can present them clearly. That IMHO reduces it to two.
You are unfair to Boris. He may be a charlatan or a clown but I am quite sure he is a convinced LEAVER. He really means it. He's thought it through and come down on one side.
Sure, it probably benefits his career. But it is also an enormous risk. He is sincere.
It was too good a catchline to ignore. TBH Boris showed another side to himself yesterday, the danger is that something he has said or done when playing "Boris The Clown" will come back to haunt him.
But the debate Boris v Jeremy will be so devoid of passion that the kettles of the UK (higher power ones at the moment of course) will be on all during the debate.
For anyone who thinks Brexit is a British peculiarity - think again.
Polling by Ipsos MORI across EU member countries plus others showed a strong desire for their own vote to Leave the EU. It isn't just us who feel it isn't working for anyone, but Germany.
"...60pc of Italians want a referendum of their own, and that 48pc would now vote to leave the EU.
58pc of the French also want their own referendum, and 41pc say they would vote to leave. Swexit sentiment in Sweden is running at 39pc...
A majority in Italy, Poland, the US, India, and South Africa actually thought the British economy would fare better once it broke free from the EU. This too is a shocker."
Boris vs Corbyn will be shit show....both are crap at debates. On the other hand, Gove would rip Corbyn a new one, but somehow still end up losing with the public as he has a unique ability to bring out dislike among floating voters.
So we have two poor debaters - one representing LEAVE who wants to REMAIN - and one who represents REMAIN, who wants to LEAVE.
LEAVE has several better debators. What they want is someone who is well known, knows how Europe runs, has constantly objected to it, is clued up with facts and can present them clearly. That IMHO reduces it to two.
The trouble for Leave is that their better debators are toxic to floating voters. Much as I like Gove he is highly unappealing to floating voters as is Farage. Obviously against Corbyn this isnt't the biggest handicap but still not ideal
[To TSE] What Osborne has proposed on a number of occasions hasn't been in the best interests of the economy, his u-turns have added billions to the national debt, you are still his number one cheerleader.
Mr. Pong, disagree. If Boris wins it's bad for Cameron.
That said, Boris has been poor at debates in the past, and none of Corbyn's during the Labour leadership election harmed his prospects.
Mr. Eagles, Augustus ended civil wars. Cameron's restarting them.
He might just end the three decade Tory civil war over the EU.
Over half the backbenches support Brexit, almost two thirds of activists and over half of all Tory voters.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
I hope in the event of a Remain victory, Leavers respect the will of the people. We'll have had two referendums, several general elections of political parties at various stages wanting to Leave, and the voters rejecting them.
I will, but if, as I suspect, the EU just continue as normal and force us into more ever closer union measures despite Dave's dodgy opt-out then the issue won't die. Do you trust the EU? I don't.
The "will of the people" exists at an instant in time, like a general election result, it is not an eternal verity. Trying to use it to close down debate is just a load of old tendentious bollocks. What people really means is if things go against you will you please give up and be quiet. Said absolutely no Tory loyalist after losing a general election, so why should a Leave or Remainer after the referendum.
@Luckyguy1983 You're quite happy aggressively to attack a poster who goes under his own name and is readily identifiable, but not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
Like many posters here, I 'aggressively' attack arguments and posts I find ridiculous, as do you. That's exactly what I did upthread. Like most other posters here, I post under a moniker and and my full contact details aren't up here. That doesn't make me 'under a rock'. Since you clearly aren't interested in whether I'm a paid troll or similar, it is quite simply a very nasty smear.
I am absolutely certain that you are not being paid by anyone, and the views you expound are entirely your own. But it is incontestable that they are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite with an inexplicable sympathy for aggressive authoritarians.
Whose foreign policy has killed more innocent people in the last 15 years, America's, or Russia's?
I submit it is America, by an order of magnitude. And Putin doesn't drone so many weddings, either.
I always thought your first love in the authoritarian stakes was China.
I don't like either regime. I'm just pointing out the ludicrous hypocrisy of western moralising vis a vis Putin.
To a neutral, looking at the death tolls, and the relative aggression, it must be very hard to see who is the bad guy.
Indeed I'm not sure there is a bad guy. Putin acts like the leader of a great power, with ruthless self interest, involving violence if necessary. The US president does exactly the same, only with greater violence, judging by the Iraq war, and its horrible sequellae.
Taking everything into account, notably the nature of their governance, adherence to personal rights and freedoms etc, you don't regard Putin as a moral equivalen to Bush or Obama. I'm taking that as a given.
OK, say Remain win by 53-47, which is clear but appreciably smaller than in Scotland? What happens then? No one is asking the Leavers to somehow recant or disavow their beliefs. But surely it is reasonable, the British people having spoken, that the question of withdrawal should not be revisited for a reasonably long period - I don't know, perhaps 10 years or so?
Yes, that's entirely reasonable, in fact I'd say 15 years is more like it. A generation. The same must apply (and surely will) in Scotland.
The one caveat is that it depends what the EU does. It is quite possible, if not probable, that after the referendum the EU will swiftly proceed to full Federalism, or EU-wide taxes, or directly elected EU president, or an EU army, etc.
In that case a referendum might be revisited much sooner.
Most, if not all, of those would need a treaty change and a treaty change would need ratifying. Almost certainly, that would require another referendum in its own right.
It is possible that some EU-wide taxes could be imposed under existing laws or via informal intergovernmental agreements but to what end? Taxes exist to fund activity and all current activity is already funded. Why create the disruption of tax reform unless there is something new to fund - and if there is something new, then that too will in all probability mean treaty change.
OK, say Remain win by 53-47, which is clear but appreciably smaller than in Scotland? What happens then? No one is asking the Leavers to somehow recant or disavow their beliefs. But surely it is reasonable, the British people having spoken, that the question of withdrawal should not be revisited for a reasonably long period - I don't know, perhaps 10 years or so?
It really depends on whether the EU respects the deal, if two months after our vote the EUParl tables an EU Army from which we will have no opt-out and the ECJ rules in favour of it when we challenge it based on the the words "ever closer union of the European people" in the Treaty of Rome then I expect there to be a lot of talk of a second referendum.
I would agree in principle but wouldn't the existing referendum lock be invoked in any event?
Is the creation of an EU army from which we could not derogate a plausible scenario?
Well it's just one example, there are plenty of others. The one which I fear is a trade deal with Turkey which includes reciprocal right of residency, it is something that would be a QMV measure which Germany will force through with its acolyte nations against UK, French and Greek opposition. It would give Turkish people almost free movement without being EU members and without requiring Turkey to meet any of the membership requirements. The fact that they have Germany in their pocket and they are being given Visa free travel despite meeting none of the requirements that the EU laid out is very troubling.
I returned to the site for lunchtime reading and it is noticeable that some of the Male proREMAIN people are aggressive bordering on insulting in how they talk to proLEAVE people.
Now maybe it is just the lack of female proREMAIN people on here, but the degree of inflammatory language used even tops the vitriolic outbursts that our resident polemicist SeanT sometimes launches into. We know that SeanT writes well and loves a tirade of words, but what is the excuse of several proREMAIN chaps on here for their language? Are they just trying to copy SeanT or have they a deeper problem?
Comments
The general Scottish polling however, was ladled heavily with overstatement of SNP and Green. That would point to an overstatement of Remain, I'd guess.
Exercise caution with face to face polling and phone polling in Scotland. It was among the least accurate for calling the end result.
I can remember as a teenager & young adult in the 1980s the Labour-voting parents of some of my schoolfriends (mostly teachers or County Hall pen-pushers) defending the USSR for 'abolishing unemployment' and similar and playing down the USSR's appalling human rights record (even suggesting the dreaded 'Thatcher' was worse...).
The former means Cameron has failed (in the manner of Constantius II when he brought peace to the empire and ended the civil war by dying). The latter seems less likely than it was.
"Gove, give me back my Commissioners!!"
Apparently the answer to the question is "because it'll lead to a massive war." So I guess it wasn't rhetorical after all.
"In a statement, Channel 4 said the Brexit Eurotrash show would bring together an assortment of “crazy continentals” from across Europe to remind the people of Britain that “without them, we really are just a very sad and insignificant little island with bad food and terrible teeth.”"
Your stated views are blindly and unpleasantly Putinite. Whether paid for or held through some form of sick sympathy for aggressive authoritarians, who can tell? Your motivation is not really that interesting.
David Cameron
Because without political union there will be economic Armageddon, World War III, the abolition of all Science and Art and the destruction of the natural environment.
That's right, isn't it?
Trump ahead in OH, tied in FL and PA.
USA! USA! USA!
How the system played its part in the Holyrood 2016 result
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36233094
LOL.
This is delusional.
What you're really saying is that you hope eurosceptics go away if there's a Remain win, no matter by what margin.
But the surest way of getting me to shield any Leaver who thinks otherwise is Remainers incessantly repeating that Putin supports Brexit, and trying to tarnish all of us with it, which absolutely infuriates me.
Which is precisely why TSE keeps doing it, of course, because he likes to both goad and provoke.
I suppose if it's a very close result, that might be less true, but I don't think there's going to be any appetite for a rerun of this. People are fed up with it already, and there's another 40+ days to go of claim and counter-claim.
I'm not altogether comfortable revealing contact info to everyone on a public forum, but I'm happy to establish who I am to a trusted third party, who can hopefully put an end to the smearing, if not get a graceful apology from those concerned.
I suggest you ponder your epic hypocrisy for a little while then crawl back under your stone again.
I simply don't trust the EU.
I make astute observations, he smears, you goad & provoke?
Considering Leavers on here have said Remainers want to to turn the UK into, inter alia, like Saudia Arabia, or have 77 million Turks move here, or that we're not patriots.
You're lucky I'm being restrained about what I really think about some of those that advocate Leave.
Signed: Theun Iondivvie
I will, of course, take a view on what the right course of action might be depending upon both the result, its margin, and the campaign, as will others.
What you really want is to eurosceptics to shut up, go away and never speak of it again.
That isn't going to happen.
And that is because it is incredibly important, and goes to the very heart of both national identity and what it means to live in a democratic society.
The EU started for the UK as an itch, progressed to a nasty sore and will end up being a suppurating ulcer.
That is because the EU has steadily increased its importance over the most fundamental aspects of how we make decisions in our society - and will continue to do so unless we leave it.
The only way this issue will be solved is by exit or by some Damascene conversion of the UK population to the process of creating and being absorbed into a United States of Europe.
Go on indulge yourself! you know you want to!
You led me straight up the garden path. It was predicted you might welch, but no one expected your behaviour to be as outrageous as it has been. You're lucky I'm restrained about what I think about that.
You've been found out: I've lost a lot of respect for you.
Parties winning the final seat (#7) in a region could be said to have been a touch lucky. These fell:
Con 4
Green 3
Lab 1
Parties who would have won seat #8, if there were more list members, could be considered a bit unlucky:
Lab 4
SNP 2
Con 1
Green 1
What a tragic state of affairs, I'm sure you'll all agree.
Now look what we've got - a 'Rogue marker' leaking Sats papers to the press.
Fact follows fiction. In fact, fact becomes a parody on fiction that is meant to be a parody on fact.
I've been consistent, I said I would vote for what I considered was in the best economic interests of the UK.
What Leave propose isn't in the best interests of the economy.
Sad but true.
LEAVE has several better debators. What they want is someone who is well known, knows how Europe runs, has constantly objected to it, is clued up with facts and can present them clearly. That IMHO reduces it to two.
Green +2
SNP -2
Lab -3
SNP 65
Con 28
Lab 27
Lib Dem 5
Green 4
If I was living in said Country, I'd have much preferred to see an SNP majority rather than effectively a Green-SNP majority.
The biggest change is the Green/SNP "luck" switches - this will accelerate the process of the former 'original' SNP areas heading Tory whilst the stranglehold is kept in Glasgow and environs.
John Swinney won't be putting through any more Tory-lite budgets.
I preferred his posts before his Id killed his Super Ego.
Is the creation of an EU army from which we could not derogate a plausible scenario?
But the debate Boris v Jeremy will be so devoid of passion that the kettles of the UK (higher power ones at the moment of course) will be on all during the debate.
Polling by Ipsos MORI across EU member countries plus others showed a strong desire for their own vote to Leave the EU. It isn't just us who feel it isn't working for anyone, but Germany.
"...60pc of Italians want a referendum of their own, and that 48pc would now vote to leave the EU.
58pc of the French also want their own referendum, and 41pc say they would vote to leave. Swexit sentiment in Sweden is running at 39pc...
A majority in Italy, Poland, the US, India, and South Africa actually thought the British economy would fare better once it broke free from the EU. This too is a shocker."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/10/devastating-mori-poll-shows-europes-peoples-share-british-rage-o/
Today Alan Johnson is calling millions of good men and women and true extremists.
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/10/china-pearl-river-delta-then-and-now-photographs
It is possible that some EU-wide taxes could be imposed under existing laws or via informal intergovernmental agreements but to what end? Taxes exist to fund activity and all current activity is already funded. Why create the disruption of tax reform unless there is something new to fund - and if there is something new, then that too will in all probability mean treaty change.
Now maybe it is just the lack of female proREMAIN people on here, but the degree of inflammatory language used even tops the vitriolic outbursts that our resident polemicist SeanT sometimes launches into. We know that SeanT writes well and loves a tirade of words, but what is the excuse of several proREMAIN chaps on here for their language? Are they just trying to copy SeanT or have they a deeper problem?