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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Election verdict. Corbyn is staying but he must raise his game

It’s a fine sunny day in April 2005 and Tony Blair is about to make a major speech on immigration — responding to a Tory General Election campaign inspired by Lynton Crosby on his first foray into British politics. The venue is Dover and the Labour events team have spent weeks on planning and staging the event.

Read the full story here

kle4

Not sure Corbyn has it in him to raise his game that much, although he has learned not to put his foot in as much in recent months, and there are talented and able people in Labour to raise the game for him, so not without hope I suppose. Khan is not very dynamic, and London is prime Labour territory, but he's still be a good model to follow I guess.

Recidivist

Second - like my attention span.

Tim_B

Now we know that the Obama administration lied about the Iran deal, and Ben Rhodes is back pedalling furiously on his comments.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/the-aspiring-novelist-who-became-obamas-foreign-policy-guru.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435136/obamas-no-1-adviser-ben-rhodes-profile-sycophancy-arrogance-incompetence

JohnLoony

The banners at the May Day rally were those of the CPGB-ML, not the CPGB.

kle4

JohnLoony said:

The banners at the May Day rally were those of the CPGB-ML, not the CPGB.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who was thinking this.

RochdalePioneers

Of course we should find better ways to present the message. It would help if the old guard of the party actually participated instead of refusing to play and spending all their time plotting.

Let's be honest. It isn't the presentation skills of Blair05 that lot want a return of, it's policy. A return to the good old days of running on a platform of 90 days detention ID cards and privatisation. A return to the gravy train where ministers of indifferent skills could rise to the cabinet then step off into lucrative private sector jobs. That's what they want. That's why they won't help present our message professionally

logical_song

Momentum think that Labour did well in last Thursday's elkections:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/05/thursdays-elections-show-labour-right-trajectory

TCPoliticalBetting

An interesting read on the Labour party. Patriotism would shore up their soft wwc votes.

DavidL

The image that struck me last Thursday was the usual rubbish of the party leaders going out to vote. There was Jeremy with his open necked shirt, slightly grubby jacket, non matching trousers and straggly beard looking at the press as if they were something unfortunate on the sole of his shoe. There was Cameron wearing a £500 suit, a smart tie and matching shirt accompanied by SamCam doing the smile and greet thing with everyone in sight.

Labour enthusiasts might claim that this shows that Corbyn is more authentic, an ordinary bloke who stays true to himself whilst Cameron is just an empty and privileged suit. But, taking Don's point, it is about image. One looked like the PM of a large and successful country, professional and serious. The other, well, didn't. And who really wants an ordinary bloke as PM?

McDonnell dresses well and it undoubtedly adds more than a patina of credibility to what he has to say. Khan loses his tie rather a lot but still wears a decent suit. They both have the image of someone capable of running something. Corbyn looks like a retired pensioner. I really don't believe a significant proportion of the country could imagine him running anything more complicated than a bath.

ThreeQuidder

"it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party."

Yeah, good luck with that.

AlastairMeeks

Jeremy Corbyn is aware symbols matter. He is choosing many consciously. He would have known what image he was presenting at the May Day rally and we can only assume that he wanted to give off the authentic aura of the hard left.

While usually affable, Jeremy Corbyn seems unwilling to compromise. Labour might get him to extend his range of symbols but I doubt that they will get him to drop any.

david_herdson

"Labour values are British values. In the face of Tory and Ukip populism it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party.

"Part of what makes us British and patriotic is that Labour is the anti-Fascist party."

These kinds of comments are not just why Labour will lose in 2020; not even why Labour will deserve to lose in 2020; but why they will be completely incredulous as to how and why it happens.

The supreme arrogance and complacence to believe that Labour is, simply by assertion and self-definition, the complete and therefore unique representation of British values is breathtaking. It's also distinctly worrying: what does it say about Labour's views of the legitimacy of other parties.

Don tells us: "Labour is the anti-Fascist party". Leave aside that Labour has proven itself these last few weeks to be indirectly institutionally anti-Semitic, tolerating member after member who was directly so, "the anti-Fascist party"? THE anti-Fascist party??!!" What does that make the rest?

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Symbols do indeed matter. But symbols can only reinforce an existing truth; they cannot manufacture one, still less negate one that runs counter to the symbol; that is to play the harmony to a completely different melody. The patriotism game is one that Labour simply cannot win under its current leadership. What is remarkable is that people like Don not only believe that they should try, not only believe that they can prevail but believe that to to do, they need do nothing more than state deluded self-evidencies against a photoshoot backdrop.

Best of British with that.

peter_from_putney

DavidL said:

The image that struck me last Thursday was the usual rubbish of the party leaders going out to vote. There was Jeremy with his open necked shirt, slightly grubby jacket, non matching trousers and straggly beard looking at the press as if they were something unfortunate on the sole of his shoe. There was Cameron wearing a £500 suit, a smart tie and matching shirt accompanied by SamCam doing the smile and greet thing with everyone in sight.

Labour enthusiasts might claim that this shows that Corbyn is more authentic, an ordinary bloke who stays true to himself whilst Cameron is just an empty and privileged suit. But, taking Don's point, it is about image. One looked like the PM of a large and successful country, professional and serious. The other, well, didn't. And who really wants an ordinary bloke as PM?

McDonnell dresses well and it undoubtedly adds more than a patina of credibility to what he has to say. Khan loses his tie rather a lot but still wears a decent suit. They both have the image of someone capable of running something. Corbyn looks like a retired pensioner. I really don't believe a significant proportion of the country could imagine him running anything more complicated than a bath.

I have made the same point several times, only to incur the wrath of a number of lefties. The truth of the matter is that appearance does matter, especially for an aspiring Prime Minister, as the likes of John McDonnell knows only too well.
But should Corbyn choose to continue dressing as he currently does, well that's fine by me. It shouts loser!

Plato_Says

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

david_herdson

RochdalePioneers said:

Of course we should find better ways to present the message. It would help if the old guard of the party actually participated instead of refusing to play and spending all their time plotting.

Let's be honest. It isn't the presentation skills of Blair05 that lot want a return of, it's policy. A return to the good old days of running on a platform of 90 days detention ID cards and privatisation. A return to the gravy train where ministers of indifferent skills could rise to the cabinet then step off into lucrative private sector jobs. That's what they want. That's why they won't help present our message professionally

It's the party leadership's job to "present [Labour's] message professionally". They're the big boys now. That's what they were elected to do and have the resources to do. It's not Tony Blair's fault that Corbyn appointed Milne.

Plato_Says

Recidivist said:

Second - like my attention span.

Casino_Royale

david_herdson said:

"Labour values are British values. In the face of Tory and Ukip populism it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party.

"Part of what makes us British and patriotic is that Labour is the anti-Fascist party."

These kinds of comments are not just why Labour will lose in 2020; not even why Labour will deserve to lose in 2020; but why they will be completely incredulous as to how and why it happens.

The supreme arrogance and complacence to believe that Labour is, simply by assertion and self-definition, the complete and therefore unique representation of British values is breathtaking. It's also distinctly worrying: what does it say about Labour's views of the legitimacy of other parties.

Don tells us: "Labour is the anti-Fascist party". Leave aside that Labour has proven itself these last few weeks to be indirectly institutionally anti-Semitic, tolerating member after member who was directly so, "the anti-Fascist party"? THE anti-Fascist party??!!" What does that make the rest?

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Symbols do indeed matter. But symbols can only reinforce an existing truth; they cannot manufacture one, still less negate one that runs counter to the symbol; that is to play the harmony to a completely different melody. The patriotism game is one that Labour simply cannot win under its current leadership. What is remarkable is that people like Don not only believe that they should try, not only believe that they can prevail but believe that to to do, they need do nothing more than state deluded self-evidencies against a photoshoot backdrop.

Best of British with that.

Hear, hear.

Pulpstar

So McDonnell could become PM just because he wears a suit slightly better than Corbo.

Well fuck me sideways !

Sadly probably true

SandyRentool

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

peter_from_putney

Recidivist said:

Second - like my attention span.

Well at least you can spell "Recidivist" and for all I know you're probably one of a very small minority who actually know the meaning of the word.

OldKingCole

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

Moses_

Noticed that last nights meeting of the PLP did not go well for Corbyn due to poor election showing and was described by one attendee as "the worse yet."

It is reported that David Milliband is also just back in town on a short break. Possibly eyeing up Tooting as candidates have to declare very soon . So........ Tooting ( with a shot at PM) or a plumb job in the US government if Hilary makes it to the Oval Office. Of course he would stand the risk of being accused of just using the charity job as a filler.

DM is 8/1 at Ladbrookes for tooting but that could be interesting for a lot of other markets given that Hillary has a good chance to secure POTUS and Corbyn is wobbling badly. On the other hand Milliband would have to secure both MP and leader nominations one with a stalking horse. Based on that if you thought the punch ups in the Tory party are not good at the moment they would pale into complete insignificance in relation to the brutal war that would start in Labour from top to bottom in such a scenario.

TOPPING

david_herdson said:

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Yes (post snipped)

More importantly, Labour has never forgiven the class traitors in Britain who have succeeded in life and made some money.

Plato_Says

david_herdson said:

"Labour values are British values. In the face of Tory and Ukip populism it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party.

"Part of what makes us British and patriotic is that Labour is the anti-Fascist party."

These kinds of comments are not just why Labour will lose in 2020; not even why Labour will deserve to lose in 2020; but why they will be completely incredulous as to how and why it happens.

The supreme arrogance and complacence to believe that Labour is, simply by assertion and self-definition, the complete and therefore unique representation of British values is breathtaking. It's also distinctly worrying: what does it say about Labour's views of the legitimacy of other parties.

Don tells us: "Labour is the anti-Fascist party". Leave aside that Labour has proven itself these last few weeks to be indirectly institutionally anti-Semitic, tolerating member after member who was directly so, "the anti-Fascist party"? THE anti-Fascist party??!!" What does that make the rest?

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Symbols do indeed matter. But symbols can only reinforce an existing truth; they cannot manufacture one, still less negate one that runs counter to the symbol; that is to play the harmony to a completely different melody. The patriotism game is one that Labour simply cannot win under its current leadership. What is remarkable is that people like Don not only believe that they should try, not only believe that they can prevail but believe that to to do, they need do nothing more than state deluded self-evidencies against a photoshoot backdrop.

Best of British with that.

Claps.

This sort of exhortation politics reminds me of the 90s, when BS5750/ISO 9000 became terribly fashionable with all manner of companies outside tech/engineering firms. Companies stuck *quality* on posters, in their advertising and sales blurb. It didn't reflect what they did or what they offered to the customer. And clients knew when it was fake. Saying it, doesn't make it true.

Labour claims to be patriotic/anti-fascist bear no relationship to what's *in* the tin. As we know from the last few weeks. Many of their supporters are impressively misogynistic too. Just a glance at the stuff thrown at LauraK [who's now on her second sack-her petition], Caroline Flint, Luciana Berger et al.

runnymede

Don Brind is unfortunately staying but shows no sign of raising his game. The same dreadful partisan tosh as ever.

Moses_

Editing box not working well now??

richardDodd

Don Brind should be reamed Don Blind. One wonders when the scales will fall away..

Plato_Says

Pulpstar said:

So McDonnell could become PM just because he wears a suit slightly better than Corbo.

Well fuck me sideways !

Sadly probably true

McIRA is so plausible on the telly. Calm, measured, talks in soothing tones, looks like an authority figure/old policeman, has some gentle humour. It's the content of what he says that makes me genuinely alarmed.

If you're not paying much attention, he appears quite sensible. If he were Labour leader, the Tories would at least have to take him a bit seriously. Corbyn is so rotten at this politics lark that everyone else just points and laughs.

RochdalePioneers

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

Snap. Punters have had enough of vacuous liars in sharp suits - remember some bloke called Nick Clegg? Cameron's ratings have gone through the floor. Blair was smartly dressed and is now reviled. So image and presentation are important but are icing - you still need a substance cake underneath.

I want Corbyn to wear his new suits more and old jackets less. I want the old guard who have been in high office to get on board and help present our policies instead of attacking them from their hate cave. And then keep moving forward.

Plato_Says

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

ydoethur

It would of course be more plausible for Corbyn to present his party as anti-fascist and patriotic if he had not overtly supported hostile fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East, not to mention City Hall.

His lack of self awareness would be funny if the consequences for Labour's credibility were not so serious.

TOPPING

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

Sandy why do you suppose that the British electorate will listen to Stage 2 when they have not done so now for a generation or three.

Is it all about the messenger?

ydoethur

RochdalePioneers said:

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

Snap. Punters have had enough of vacuous liars in sharp suits - remember some bloke called Nick Clegg? Cameron's ratings have gone through the floor. Blair was smartly dressed and is now reviled. So image and presentation are important but are icing - you still need a substance cake underneath.

I want Corbyn to wear his new suits more and old jackets less. I want the old guard who have been in high office to get on board and help present our policies instead of attacking them from their hate cave. And then keep moving forward.

The problem is swapping an untrustworthy idiot in a sharp suit for an untrustworthy idiot in a scruffy one isn't really a form of progress. Corbyn is Major to Miliband's Thatcher from that point of view.

TOPPING

RochdalePioneers said:

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

Snap. Punters have had enough of vacuous liars in sharp suits - remember some bloke called Nick Clegg? Cameron's ratings have gone through the floor. Blair was smartly dressed and is now reviled. So image and presentation are important but are icing - you still need a substance cake underneath.

I want Corbyn to wear his new suits more and old jackets less. I want the old guard who have been in high office to get on board and help present our policies instead of attacking them from their hate cave. And then keep moving forward.

Sozza, Rochdale me old china, but "punters" transparently and evidently haven't had enough of "vacuous liars" in sharp suits. They have voted such people into power for the past 37 years.

This is wishful thinking typical of the new Jezza left.

peter_from_putney

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

Roger

You make the very relevant point that Labour have always been the 'anti-fascist party'. I watched a documentary on Himmler yesterday and it was notable that as the Nazis began their racist tyranny picking out the Jews the homosexuals and the the infirm the only people standing up to them were the Communists who were also the first residents of the Belsen concentration camp.


For the leader of the country's premier left wing party to allow that USP to be lost is a tragedy. it puts him into the Gerald Ratner category of incompetents but with far more serious consequences. The 'right' are on the march with no one standing in their way.

To believe Chakrabarti can repair the reputational damage with an inquiry is naively optimistic. I'm doubtful turfing out the leadership will be enough but it has to be the starting point.

runnymede

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

DavidL

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

Tricky when all negotiations on Trade deals are no longer in his remit. Maybe after the 23rd...

ThreeQuidder

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

I don't understand why ensuring that our foreign, defence and security policies remain ours plus regaining control of our trade policy is seen as "losing global influence".

Plato_Says

ydoethur said:

It would of course be more plausible for Corbyn to present his party as anti-fascist and patriotic if he had not overtly supported hostile fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East, not to mention City Hall.

His lack of self awareness would be funny if the consequences for Labour's credibility were not so serious.

Did you see the report from Venezuela I posted the other day? Residents are eating dogs/cats/pigeons caught on the streets as food shortages are rampant.

ydoethur

Plato_Says said:

ydoethur said:

It would of course be more plausible for Corbyn to present his party as anti-fascist and patriotic if he had not overtly supported hostile fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East, not to mention City Hall.

His lack of self awareness would be funny if the consequences for Labour's credibility were not so serious.

Did you see the report from Venezuela I posted the other day? Residents are eating dogs/cats/pigeons caught on the streets as food shortages are rampant.

That was one of the regimes I was thinking of.

Casino_Royale

david_herdson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Of course we should find better ways to present the message. It would help if the old guard of the party actually participated instead of refusing to play and spending all their time plotting.

Let's be honest. It isn't the presentation skills of Blair05 that lot want a return of, it's policy. A return to the good old days of running on a platform of 90 days detention ID cards and privatisation. A return to the gravy train where ministers of indifferent skills could rise to the cabinet then step off into lucrative private sector jobs. That's what they want. That's why they won't help present our message professionally

It's the party leadership's job to "present [Labour's] message professionally". They're the big boys now. That's what they were elected to do and have the resources to do. It's not Tony Blair's fault that Corbyn appointed Milne.

Doesn't help if people don't like the message though.

peter_from_putney

" ..... only to incur the wrath of a number of lefties."

See what I mean - so utterly predictable!

Plato_Says

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

I saw this last night - yet another appeal to authority round robin letter. And from the US again. Insanity from Remain who are doing a fine job of repeating the same mistakes.

How many letters have they churned out do date? Who cares? I barely see anyone even mention them anymore.

Casino_Royale

DavidL said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

Tricky when all negotiations on Trade deals are no longer in his remit. Maybe after the 23rd...

Lol!!!

OldKingCole - come aboard Leave old chap, and make your dream come true! ;-)

Scott_P

Labour is the Patriotic Party...

With a leader who

might not kneel for the Queen
sing the national anthem
bow at the Cenotaph

OK, let's get him a new suit

MarkHopkins

I'm seeing non-political people in my Facebook timeline writing Cameron/Brexit parodies.

Remain are just getting laughed at now; Leave might actually do this.

It’s The Hope that Kills You.

richardDodd

Brind does not realise..along with a lot of lefties..that Antisemitism is a short step..of the Goose variety..away from Fascism.

DecrepitJohnL

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:

"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

Indeed, but their warnings might still be valid. It is hard to say without knowing quite what is meant by global influence. I see HMQ and President Obama together advertising the Invictus Games, and that President Trump would let Sadiq into America. Will the mayor be unable to holiday in Disneyworld if we leave the European Union?

I've not seen the letter but one hopes it is full of the benefits we currently enjoy -- in other words, that it has a positive tone rather than being yet more carping from project fear.

DavidL

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Plato_Says

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

He's also being very rude. When a man famed for having good manners outside PMQs gets rather boorish - it turns many off too. He lived to regret saying what he did about Kippers, and he's doing it again with members of his own Party. It's not big or clever - especially when you're PM.

He's thrown away so much for so little in the last three months - I still can't quite believe it, though I feel the same.

runnymede

Plato_Says said:

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

He's also being very rude. When a man famed for having good manners outside PMQs gets rather boorish - it turns many off too. He lived to regret saying what he did about Kippers, and he's doing it again with members of his own Party. It's not big or clever - especially when you're PM.

He's thrown away so much for so little in the last three months - I still can't quite believe it, though I feel the same.

Well we don't know why he has 'thrown away so much' yet. But imagine it is significant and not something connected with the future of the Conservative party.

MarkHopkins

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Maybe he wanted to wait till after he stepped down as Mayor.

Casino_Royale

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

I watched it in full last night and thought it was very good.

TCPoliticalBetting

richardDodd said:

Don Brind should be reamed .....

Shocked.

Plato_Says

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

I was really impressed by it - I watched the whole thing yesterday and I didn't get bored or wonder what his point was. The hacks wanted fun and wiff-waff and didn't get what they wanted, bar 3 secs of Ode to Joy. I thought his challenge re speaking several languages etc was a great touch. And stats like the awful state of Greece, humanising it by mentioning rising suicide/eye-watering jobless rates...

All in all - if he can keep saying this stuff for the next six weeks, I'll be delighted. There will be the odd gaffe, but he's better equipped to shrug those off than almost anyone else.

JackW

Latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection Countdown

1 hour.

CarlottaVance

RochdalePioneers said:

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

Punters have had enough of vacuous liars in sharp suits

Oh I dunno......they've just re-elected one in Scotland who loudly proclaims her respect for the will of the people - by revisiting the 'will of the people' when they got the answer wrong.

Mr Brind is viewing Labour through (very) rose tinted glasses - Labour's anti-fascist heyday was in the thirties - by the sixties and seventies it had morphed into anti-westernism and pro-communism and these people (despised by Healey & Callaghan - both true patriots) now sit at the top of your party.

Mr Herdson. Nail. Head.

Plato_Says

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

He's also being very rude. When a man famed for having good manners outside PMQs gets rather boorish - it turns many off too. He lived to regret saying what he did about Kippers, and he's doing it again with members of his own Party. It's not big or clever - especially when you're PM.

He's thrown away so much for so little in the last three months - I still can't quite believe it, though I feel the same.

Well we don't know why he has 'thrown away so much' yet. But imagine it is significant and not something connected with the future of the Conservative party.

If he was next up to be President of EU - I'd believe it. I can't understand his bizarre Burn-All-The-Bridges attitude.

TCPoliticalBetting

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...
All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

REMAIN get half their support in polls from Labour voters.
Cameron is only trusted by 11% of them. (Yougov). Smart strategy?

richardDodd

Plato..there comes a time when a PM has to be rude..the ruder the better..It wakes up those complacent fools around him and sharpens up the opposition..they could be next in the firing line..We do not need a Mr Nice Guy as PM..It is a tough old world out there.
.Corbyn shuffling in to a meeting of tough world leaders would be a bloody disaster for the UK.

TCPoliticalBetting

Plato_Says said:

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

He's also being very rude. When a man famed for having good manners outside PMQs gets rather boorish - it turns many off too. He lived to regret saying what he did about Kippers, and he's doing it again with members of his own Party. It's not big or clever - especially when you're PM.

He's thrown away so much for so little in the last three months - I still can't quite believe it, though I feel the same.

Well we don't know why he has 'thrown away so much' yet. But imagine it is significant and not something connected with the future of the Conservative party.

If he was next up to be President of EU - I'd believe it. I can't understand his bizarre Burn-All-The-Bridges attitude.

Always been a short term thinker? Never thinks many moves ahead.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

F1: in the BBC gossip column, Ecclestone's wibbling there could be a London race as early as next year.

I think that's tosh, and certainly hope it's the case. The calendar's packed enough without another tedious street circuit, especially one in a country which has a historic and fantastic race track already in the sport.

DavidL

MarkHopkins said:

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Maybe he wanted to wait till after he stepped down as Mayor.

I suspect it was more that he wanted the elections out of the way. He did not want this portrayed as a further fraying of the Conservative party before people voted and he did not want distractions but this speech was not thrown together in a couple of hours. A lot of thought has gone into both the content and the tone.

Plato_Says

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...
All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

REMAIN get half their support in polls from Labour voters.
Cameron is only trusted by 11% of them. (Yougov). Smart strategy?

I do wonder if Jezza's Invisibility Strategy with added Take-A-Holiday are his way of securing a Leave win by omission. Who's talking up Remain for Labour? I honestly couldn't say. I see the odd Colonel Bucket or Chuka appearance - but nothing that's caught my attention.

What am I missing? Are Labour hoping their voters will vote Remain regardless?

richardDodd

TCPBetting...Yes..and that too.....it is a little early..

dr_spyn

Corbyn is and always be a disaster for Labour. Failed to make any headway in Scotland, Khan making distance almost at the first opportunity, and despite failings of Tories in Government, Labour don't make headway.

Corbyn is worse than Lansbury, out of touch, out of his depth and keeping Labour out of power. Oust him.

TOPPING

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Disappointed in you, David. It's fine rhetoric, perhaps that blinded you. But it is largely illiterate. What, for example, do you make of this bit:

"So what was the decisive advantage to Britain, or any other country, of being inside this system [the single market], and accepting these thousands of one-size-fits-all regulations? In fact you could argue that many countries were better off being outside, and not subject to the bureaucracy."

Is Boris saying that outside the single market in, say, widgets, we wouldn't have to accept the one-size-fits-all regulations? We could have our very own widget regulations and not be subject to those very same regulations? But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

And do you think businesses a) prefer one-size-fits-all regulations; or b) dislike one-size-fits-all regulations?

Plato_Says

DavidL said:

MarkHopkins said:

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Maybe he wanted to wait till after he stepped down as Mayor.

I suspect it was more that he wanted the elections out of the way. He did not want this portrayed as a further fraying of the Conservative party before people voted and he did not want distractions but this speech was not thrown together in a couple of hours. A lot of thought has gone into both the content and the tone.

IIRC it took an hour to deliver it. Unlike Cameron's which got too boring for Sky to stay with after 40mins, they stuck with Boris for the full thing and then some questions.

foxinsoxuk

Roger said:

You make the very relevant point that Labour have always been the 'anti-fascist party'. I watched a documentary on Himmler yesterday and it was notable that as the Nazis began their racist tyranny picking out the Jews the homosexuals and the the infirm the only people standing up to them were the Communists who were also the first residents of the Belsen concentration camp.


For the leader of the country's premier left wing party to allow that USP to be lost is a tragedy. it puts him into the Gerald Ratner category of incompetents but with far more serious consequences. The 'right' are on the march with no one standing in their way.

To believe Chakrabarti can repair the reputational damage with an inquiry is naively optimistic. I'm doubtful turfing out the leadership will be enough but it has to be the starting point.

On the subject of anti-fascism Hillary Benn got it right in the Syria debate:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/william-hague-breaks-with-cameron-over-use-of-ground-forces-in-syria

There is nothing anti-fascist about making common cause with Islamists.

JohnLoony

SandyRentool said:

I voted for Corbyn not for how he looks but because he was the only candidate offering something different to what had failed in 2010 and 2015. We still have four years. Stage one - get the party thinking and saying something different. A coherent, attractive radical socialist message. Stage two - get the voters to listen and consider what we have got to offer. This may well require a different leader to present the message, but we cannot jump straight to this second stage, otherwise you just have someone like Chuka sounding no different to Cameron.

"Coherent, attractive, radical, socialist"? That's an oxymoron. Or a triple-barrelled doubleplusoxymoron.

Roger

david_herdson said:

"Labour values are British values. In the face of Tory and Ukip populism it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party.

"Part of what makes us British and patriotic is that Labour is the anti-Fascist party."

These kinds of comments are not just why Labour will lose in 2020; not even why Labour will deserve to lose in 2020; but why they will be completely incredulous as to how and why it happens.

The supreme arrogance and complacence to believe that Labour is, simply by assertion and self-definition, the complete and therefore unique representation of British values is breathtaking. It's also distinctly worrying: what does it say about Labour's views of the legitimacy of other parties.

Don tells us: "Labour is the anti-Fascist party". Leave aside that Labour has proven itself these last few weeks to be indirectly institutionally anti-Semitic, tolerating member after member who was directly so, "the anti-Fascist party"? THE anti-Fascist party??!!" What does that make the rest?

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Symbols do indeed matter. But symbols can only reinforce an existing truth; they cannot manufacture one, still less negate one that runs counter to the symbol; that is to play the harmony to a completely different melody. The patriotism game is one that Labour simply cannot win under its current leadership. What is remarkable is that people like Don not only believe that they should try, not only believe that they can prevail but believe that to to do, they need do nothing more than state deluded self-evidencies against a photoshoot backdrop.

Best of British with that.

I can hardly believe that post is yours. I've never thought of you as one of those John O' Gaunt posters who proliferate this site

Plato_Says

Another Allahu Akbar attack nr Munich this morning - one fatality, several others with serious stab wounds.

richardDodd

Plato..That is all it needs..one or two more before the ref and we are deffo out....

dr_spyn

Corbyn must raise his game - Plaid takes Rhondda. Failed in Wales.

AlastairMeeks

The transmitter on here this morning seems stuck on Radio Leave. The wonky aerials must be responsible.

HYUFD

Plato_Says said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...
All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

REMAIN get half their support in polls from Labour voters.
Cameron is only trusted by 11% of them. (Yougov). Smart strategy?

I do wonder if Jezza's Invisibility Strategy with added Take-A-Holiday are his way of securing a Leave win by omission. Who's talking up Remain for Labour? I honestly couldn't say. I see the odd Colonel Bucket or Chuka appearance - but nothing that's caught my attention.

What am I missing? Are Labour hoping their voters will vote Remain regardless?

Khan is set to play a big role for Remain

Alistair

I see we were told to only trust ppppolls when it comes to Trump and the American elections

So let's have a look then

https://twitter.com/_mariocarrillo_/status/729677476117499904?s=09

HYUFD

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

Given Trump has backed BREXIT that all depends on who wins in November

richardDodd

Plato ..re Sky speeches..They didn't even turn up the sound with D Milliband

Jonathan

Roger said:

david_herdson said:

"Labour values are British values. In the face of Tory and Ukip populism it is vital that we continually assert that Labour is the patriotic party.

"Part of what makes us British and patriotic is that Labour is the anti-Fascist party."

These kinds of comments are not just why Labour will lose in 2020; not even why Labour will deserve to lose in 2020; but why they will be completely incredulous as to how and why it happens.

The supreme arrogance and complacence to believe that Labour is, simply by assertion and self-definition, the complete and therefore unique representation of British values is breathtaking. It's also distinctly worrying: what does it say about Labour's views of the legitimacy of other parties.

Don tells us: "Labour is the anti-Fascist party". Leave aside that Labour has proven itself these last few weeks to be indirectly institutionally anti-Semitic, tolerating member after member who was directly so, "the anti-Fascist party"? THE anti-Fascist party??!!" What does that make the rest?

No, Don. Labour cannot be the patriotic party because far too many people within Labour - including those at the very top - hate what Britain is and what it stands for, they hate its power in the world, they hate its history (inescapably tied to patriotism), they oppose the symbols of patriotism.

Symbols do indeed matter. But symbols can only reinforce an existing truth; they cannot manufacture one, still less negate one that runs counter to the symbol; that is to play the harmony to a completely different melody. The patriotism game is one that Labour simply cannot win under its current leadership. What is remarkable is that people like Don not only believe that they should try, not only believe that they can prevail but believe that to to do, they need do nothing more than state deluded self-evidencies against a photoshoot backdrop.

Best of British with that.

I can hardly believe that post is yours. I've never thought of you as one of those John O' Gaunt posters who proliferate this site

Not sure Labour should take lectures on patriotism and British values from the party that just brought us the Zac Goldsmith campaign.

Morris_Dancer

Miss Plato, did enjoy the use of the term 'possible Islamist' in the first sentence:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36254513

If someone shouted 'death to blacks' whilst stabbing black people, would it be 'possible racist connection'?

"Bavarian public radio reports that the Munich prosecutor has imposed a news blackout and that contradictory statements have emerged from the scene."

Got to give Frau Merkel time to decide what the media will report, I suppose.

ThreeQuidder

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

TOPPING

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

44% of our exports are to the EU.

Moses_

Sky news
4 people stabbed at a railway station near Munich. One has died. Attacker has been detained

CarlottaVance

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

That really is an excellent speech. Boris's steps into this campaign were faltering and hesitant, you got the impression that he had found himself in a position he really didn't want to be in and like a lot of Leavers he was somewhat unimpressed by the company he was being asked to keep.

I think he has now found his range. If he can make the Leave campaign liberal, cosmopolitan and, above all, less strident he is capable of swaying a lot of people. With the polling as it is that would make life very interesting.

Agreed - if LEAVE raise their (so far lack lustre) game that may force REMAIN to do so too.....tho I'm not sure what powder they've kept dry after blowing WWIII.......

ThreeQuidder

TOPPING said:

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

44% of our exports are to the EU.

Not all UK companies export.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. HYUFD, the language is less condescending than Obama's, but that message may be seen in the same light.

Mr. HYUFD (2), is that confirmed, or just your (quite probably correct) instinct?

I'm not sure Khan's that persuasive. Not an especially good speaker, or especially charming, though he does have the mantle of authority (and recently bestowed authority at that). A plus for Remain, but not a large one.

Moses_

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

Until their next war of course where we will be expected to "snap into line"

TOPPING

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

44% of our exports are to the EU.

Not all UK companies export.

No, they don't. The newsagent at the bottom of your road probably doesn't export to the EU. I don't suppose either that they are too concerned by EU widget regulations. UK widget manufacturers, meanwhile, moreso.

As I said, great rhetoric, easy to pick apart, that said.

Roger

foxinsoxuk said:

Roger said:

You make the very relevant point that Labour have always been the 'anti-fascist party'. I watched a documentary on Himmler yesterday and it was notable that as the Nazis began their racist tyranny picking out the Jews the homosexuals and the the infirm the only people standing up to them were the Communists who were also the first residents of the Belsen concentration camp.


For the leader of the country's premier left wing party to allow that USP to be lost is a tragedy. it puts him into the Gerald Ratner category of incompetents but with far more serious consequences. The 'right' are on the march with no one standing in their way.

To believe Chakrabarti can repair the reputational damage with an inquiry is naively optimistic. I'm doubtful turfing out the leadership will be enough but it has to be the starting point.

On the subject of anti-fascism Hillary Benn got it right in the Syria debate:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/william-hague-breaks-with-cameron-over-use-of-ground-forces-in-syria

There is nothing anti-fascist about making common cause with Islamists.

I read your post yesterday re 'Son of Saul'. As you say filmically a tour de force. The claustaphobia the shallow depth of focus the absense of any music (I think) but beyond that the complete lack of emotion. The organisation the detail. All in all a quite exceptional film that'll never be seen by enough people. I imagine you saw it at a niche cinema?

DavidL

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

Plato_Says said:

For anyone who'd like to read Boris' full speech - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/boris_johnson_the_liberal_cosmopolitan_case_to_vote_leave?utm_campaign=160509_c_news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=voteleave

Disappointed in you, David. It's fine rhetoric, perhaps that blinded you. But it is largely illiterate. What, for example, do you make of this bit:

"So what was the decisive advantage to Britain, or any other country, of being inside this system [the single market], and accepting these thousands of one-size-fits-all regulations? In fact you could argue that many countries were better off being outside, and not subject to the bureaucracy."

Is Boris saying that outside the single market in, say, widgets, we wouldn't have to accept the one-size-fits-all regulations? We could have our very own widget regulations and not be subject to those very same regulations? But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

And do you think businesses a) prefer one-size-fits-all regulations; or b) dislike one-size-fits-all regulations?

The point he is making, and it is a good point, is that the single market has not delivered any of the promise that those who fought for it (mainly Brits, some Germans) told us we would have.

Integrating our regulations in widgets has not increased the manufacture or supply of widgets in the UK, it has actually made the manufacture and supply of widgets by countries like China easier wiping out our domestic industry.

The growth rate of the EU has markedly slowed since the Single Market came into being and we need to think about why that is. The UK is not the worst affected by this, indeed our relative performance has improved markedly over that period but that is because we have slowed down less than most of the EZ, not because we are growing faster. Our growth is now largely being driven by immigration and the increase in the size of the workforce. One has to wonder for how long that is sustainable.

The EU project of having ever more regulation from the centre is not working. It is a model from the 50s and the 60s that looks increasingly archaic, bureaucratic and hostile to innovation. It is making the EU less competitive, not more. Proof is in the numbers. We need a major change of direction and that does not look possible inside the EU.

rcs1000

richardDodd said:

Plato..That is all it needs..one or two more before the ref and we are deffo out....

I want Out as much as the next pb poster (assuming the next pb poster is Charles), but please don't wish for violent attacks.

(Greetings from Melbourne.)

blackburn63

Plato_Says said:

runnymede said:

Plato_Says said:

OldKingCole said:

As a Remainer, I wish Cameron would shut up and lead a trade delegation to Antarctica or somewhere else far away.

But, but but... he's such an asset...

All mickey-taking aside, he's certainly not turned out to be the Big Gun many expected him to be.

Cameron's credibility has been based entirely on him appearing like a moderate and reasonable 'chap'.

He now appears like one of the cranks at Speaker's Corner, raving about the end of the World in case of Brexit. It's unsurprising the public are now starting to view him in a very different light.

He's also being very rude. When a man famed for having good manners outside PMQs gets rather boorish - it turns many off too. He lived to regret saying what he did about Kippers, and he's doing it again with members of his own Party. It's not big or clever - especially when you're PM.

He's thrown away so much for so little in the last three months - I still can't quite believe it, though I feel the same.

What a very good post, it confirms what I've been saying for weeks, Cameron is relying on people he's insulted to prop him up, that says plenty about his character. On a personal level I've always defended him, after the tragedy with his son he was very dignified and he appears to be a good family man, but he has demonstrated a very unpleasant side too often, people don't forget that.

HYUFD

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. HYUFD, the language is less condescending than Obama's, but that message may be seen in the same light.

Mr. HYUFD (2), is that confirmed, or just your (quite probably correct) instinct?

I'm not sure Khan's that persuasive. Not an especially good speaker, or especially charming, though he does have the mantle of authority (and recently bestowed authority at that). A plus for Remain, but not a large one.

Trump confirmed backing for Brexit on Fox

Khan has just won a landslide in our biggest city and has a bigger mandate than Corbyn, he is not perfect but he will help with Labour voters and minorities

rcs1000

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

I suspect there is a very high correlation between "exports to the world" and "exports to the EU"

AlastairMeeks

Moses_ said:

peter_from_putney said:

The Times:
"Britain must not bank on its “special relationship” with the United States to compensate for losing global influence by leaving the EU, foreign and defence chiefs from every White House administration over the past 40 years have warned.
In a letter to The Times, 13 former US secretaries of state and defence and national security advisers say that the country’s “place and influence in the world would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously weakened” after a vote to leave in next month’s referendum."

Yet more interference from our American friends, tinged with just a hint of blackmail.

Until their next war of course where we will be expected to "snap into line"

You're quite right, Leave are pushing us in the direction of the worst of both worlds, where the USA would pay less interest in us because we featured so much less in their calculations by being more disengaged and on those rare (usually military) occasions where we did become of more interest to the USA we would feel compelled to throw ourselves wholeheartedly in the endeavour in order to try to attract more of their attention.

It is a definite downside of voting Leave.

blackburn63

An interesting thread header for me, I wasn't aware Blair had visited my home town in 2005. If you have a read of this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4471115.stm

you get an interesting view of how the parties were talking about immigration just a decade ago.

rcs1000

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

ThreeQuidder said:

TOPPING said:

But what if we wanted to sell widgets to the EU?

That was answered in the speech: only 6% of UK companies sell to the EU.

44% of our exports are to the EU.

Not all UK companies export.

But as a country we - like every modern economy - are dependent on imports. Coal, oil, natural gas, electricity, food, electronics, iron ore, and almost every type of raw material.

Without exports, we cannot afford to pay for the imports.

Moses_

Plato_Says said:

ydoethur said:

It would of course be more plausible for Corbyn to present his party as anti-fascist and patriotic if he had not overtly supported hostile fascist regimes in South America and the Middle East, not to mention City Hall.

His lack of self awareness would be funny if the consequences for Labour's credibility were not so serious.

Did you see the report from Venezuela I posted the other day? Residents are eating dogs/cats/pigeons caught on the streets as food shortages are rampant.

But...but..but where is young master Owen Jones now and as always this Socialist utopia is anything but?