Please do tell us which member of the leave camp will the Prime Minister of the UK after the referendum. That well known Leaver Mrs May perhaps. You and Meeks continue with this disingenuous crap of conflating the Leave campaign members with the government of the UK, it's very silly.
Whoever is PM will carry out the wishes of voters. Those wishes, in the event of a Leave result, will 100% unambiguously have been for us to leave the EU, including leaving the arrangements for freedom of movement. That is just about the only thing which is clear - almost very single prominent Leave campaigner, the official campaign, UKIP, GO, all agree on that. There's really no argument about it: that is what voters will have voted for, and there's zero chance that any mainstream politician in going to simply ignore the will of the electorate if that's what they choose. It would be a gross betrayal to do so.
What's more, it's only here on PB that anyone argues otherwise. It's really odd.
I'm very happy to take money of anyone who is both trustworthy and deluded enough to think I'm wrong (see previous thread) - please form an orderly queue.
It would be a pointless exercise - Gove has ensured that remain will win.
Gove had no choice. He was choosing between going full leave and annoying a relatively few free trade libertarians such as yourself, Mr Tyndall and Mr 1000, or going EEA/EFTA and annoying all the kippers, and pretty much all the WWC leaver who between them number 8-10 million. If the WWC end of the franchise decided that not getting what they wanted on immigration meant that Leave wasnt worth all the other risks, then the leave campaign was dead.
So you think by offering EEA/EFTA as an interim then all the Kippers would simply vote Remain? I don't agree - I think they would still turn out for the last opportunity they will ever get to leave the EU.
I think some would, and I think a lot of voters that are not fussed either way about the EU, but want to control immigration (and that I would guess is a shitload of voters given the last British Social Attitudes Survey) would either think it was a europhile stitch up, or more likely just decide not getting what they want over immigration made the rest not worth the risk.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
Torro Rosso have contacted Honda about using their engine in 2017, this is in addition to Sauber. Honda would supply 2017 engines to both teams, but they would not get development data which remains exclusive to McLaren as part of the works deal they have. For both teams it would be an upgrade on the 2016 Ferrari engines they can expect for that year, especially now that Honda have sorted out their reliability issues and are looking to increase the engine power to match Ferrari and Mercedes over the coming year and in the break.
You do have to wonder why the polls are so static. Are they asking the same people or has the issue not cut through yet
Or have the vast majority of people made up their minds (possibly a long time ago) and are not interested in, or reacting to the propaganda press releases of either side.
Maybe
I think a lot of voters are in that category. My blue-rinse Tory mother, which whom I had not discussed the EU before, but being a Cameron loyalist I had assumed she was a remainer, is apparently for Leave, and isn't interested in changing that view. Conversely my sister and her husband who are rural GPs who despair of both major parties for obvious reasons, are both for Remain and similar not interested in changing their views.
You know Boris also praised the Russians for assisting the Syrians for liberating Palmyra. Behind his buffoonish exterior he appears to be a much more interesting character.
Didn't Wikileaks expose Bildt as CIA asset? Pretty obvious when one looks at his positions on the pertinent issues and the posts he has held anyway.
Of course... tell us more about how Friend Putin is fighting the evil elected CIA governments of Europe.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Maybe Obama can give his opinion too...
Poland about to say goodbye to rather a lot of EU investment when the UK pulls out. I suspect that the reaction is just someone being embarrassed when their dirty linen gets aired in public.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
UKIP are 13% of the electorate, let's assume Leave has them in the bag. The bulk of the other 37% that Leave need to win are political moderates of one sort or another that think we have too much, or far too much immigration. Joining the EEA will keep the former, and lose the later, and only replacing them with a few tens of thousands of free trade libertarians, who will probably vote Leave in any case. There will be a number there claiming sovereignty as their main concern, but for the bulk of those that is just a politically acceptable terms for controlling immigration.
If McLaren got beaten by Toro Rosso, that would prove embarrassing.
Might not help them much. Alonso is on record as saying the McLaren chassis is very good, amongst the best he's driven. So why is McLaren's performance so poor? Gotta be a lack of power.
I hear Estonia is not really a European country at all, but merely a CIA asset invented in 1993 to stand in the way of Boris, Marine Le Pen, and other Putifans.
Mr. E, depends how quickly they can improve. Regulations change next year, though I'm unfamiliar with the detail. It may be an opportunity to shuffle the running order.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
UKIP are 13% of the electorate, let's assume Leave has them in the bag. The bulk of the other 37% that Leave need to win are political moderates of one sort or another that think we have too much, or far too much immigration. Joining the EEA will keep the former, and lose the later, and only replacing them with a few tens of thousands of free trade libertarians, who will probably vote Leave in any case.
I would take the approach that most of that 37% are not so concerned with immigration, but are middle class homeowners who therefore have something to lose from a hard Brexit landing if the economics are wrong.
On principle they would like to leave, but will not vote to lose their job or their house or even their current standard of living. It is these people that will make the difference - home counties tories.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
I had my sister on the phone last night, she lives in Herefordshire, and has received no literature from anyone on the PCC elections except her polling card, so she googled around to try and find some details of the candidates, and read them all in detail, before going to vote. At the vote she discovered that she was not in West Midlands PCC as she expected in their location, but West Mercia PCC, so she had examined the wrong candidates profiles, and instead had to resort to pinning the tail on the political donkey... and they wonder why turnout is low.
Half of Europeans in eight EU countries think Britain will vote to leave in the June 23 referendum, according to a poll published Monday.
The Ipsos MORI survey also found that almost half of those questioned think their country should follow Britain’s lead and hold a referendum on EU membership.
If McLaren got beaten by Toro Rosso, that would prove embarrassing.
Well I think McLaren feel they have developed their chassis for 2017 better than most, plus Torro Rosso are not a threat to them in terms of winning titles like RBR would be.
I think he wants Honda to maximise their output so that there is no chance of RBR or Williams muscling in late in the partnership without having to take the painful years of 2015 and 2016.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
UKIP are 13% of the electorate, let's assume Leave has them in the bag. The bulk of the other 37% that Leave need to win are political moderates of one sort or another that think we have too much, or far too much immigration. Joining the EEA will keep the former, and lose the later, and only replacing them with a few tens of thousands of free trade libertarians, who will probably vote Leave in any case.
I would take the approach that most of that 37% are not so concerned with immigration, but are middle class homeowners who therefore have something to lose from a hard Brexit landing if the economics are wrong.
On principle they would like to leave, but will not vote to lose their job or their house or even their current standard of living. It is these people that will make the difference - home counties tories.
Please do tell us which member of the leave camp will the Prime Minister of the UK after the referendum. That well known Leaver Mrs May perhaps. You and Meeks continue with this disingenuous crap of conflating the Leave campaign members with the government of the UK, it's very silly.
Whoever is PM will carry out the wishes of voters. Those wishes, in the event of a Leave result, will 100% unambiguously have been for us to leave the EU, including leaving the arrangements for freedom of movement. That is just about the only thing which is clear - almost very single prominent Leave campaigner, the official campaign, UKIP, GO, all agree on that. There's really no argument about it: that is what voters will have voted for, and there's zero chance that any mainstream politician in going to simply ignore the will of the electorate if that's what they choose. It would be a gross betrayal to do so.
What's more, it's only here on PB that anyone argues otherwise. It's really odd.
I'm very happy to take money of anyone who is both trustworthy and deluded enough to think I'm wrong (see previous thread) - please form an orderly queue.
It would be a pointless exercise - Gove has ensured that remain will win.
Gove had no choice. He was choosing between going full leave and annoying a relatively few free trade libertarians such as yourself, Mr Tyndall and Mr 1000, or going EEA/EFTA and annoying all the kippers, and pretty much all the WWC leaver who between them number 8-10 million. If the WWC end of the franchise decided that not getting what they wanted on immigration meant that Leave wasnt worth all the other risks, then the leave campaign was dead.
So you think by offering EEA/EFTA as an interim then all the Kippers would simply vote Remain? I don't agree - I think they would still turn out for the last opportunity they will ever get to leave the EU.
I think some would, and I think a lot of voters that are not fussed either way about the EU, but want to control immigration (and that I would guess is a shitload of voters given the last British Social Attitudes Survey) would either think it was a europhile stitch up, or more likely just decide not getting what they want over immigration made the rest not worth the risk.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
Very true. We will be looking at >80% turnout for past UKIUP voters.
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
UKIP are 13% of the electorate, let's assume Leave has them in the bag. The bulk of the other 37% that Leave need to win are political moderates of one sort or another that think we have too much, or far too much immigration. Joining the EEA will keep the former, and lose the later, and only replacing them with a few tens of thousands of free trade libertarians, who will probably vote Leave in any case.
I would take the approach that most of that 37% are not so concerned with immigration, but are middle class homeowners who therefore have something to lose from a hard Brexit landing if the economics are wrong.
On principle they would like to leave, but will not vote to lose their job or their house or even their current standard of living. It is these people that will make the difference - home counties tories.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
I had my sister on the phone last night, she lives in Herefordshire, and has received no literature from anyone on the PCC elections except her polling card, so she googled around to try and find some details of the candidates, and read them all in detail, before going to vote. At the vote she discovered that she was not in West Midlands PCC as she expected in their location, but West Mercia PCC, so she had examined the wrong candidates profiles, and instead had to resort to pinning the tail on the political donkey... and they wonder why turnout is low.
Sorry, but anyone who lives there and thinks Herefordshire is in the West Mids police area should be denied the vote!
(I'm only annoyed because she didn't decide to spoil her ballot!)
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Maybe Obama can give his opinion too...
Poland about to say goodbye to rather a lot of EU investment when the UK pulls out. I suspect that the reaction is just someone being embarrassed when their dirty linen gets aired in public.
Infrastructure funds, remittances, hoping to get our troops stationed there to pay for their defence etc. Big financial loser from Brexit (which necessarily implies we are big financial winners).
If McLaren got beaten by Toro Rosso, that would prove embarrassing.
McLaren won't be too worried about TR with the same engine, they're more than happy with the performance of their chassis. It would help everyone involved if Honda had another team or two though, the restricted running isn't helping them develop the PU as quickly as they'd want.
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Happy neither of them get a vote
The polish minister is a friend of Boris
Indeed but he has a job to do, I am sure they will have a drink and chat about it some other time. Everyone understands that sounding tough with other governments goes down well with the voters, and everyone understand that those other governments have to reply.
I remember well the comment here from Nick Palmer, that a lot of professional politicians make good friends with others in their trade, even if they are from different sides of the aisle. They all know what each other need to say and they have a beer and talk about it as gentlemen (and ladies no doubt) at the end of the day...
I think if you've got as far as voting UKIP, you won't be sitting on your hands on June 23rd.
UKIP are 13% of the electorate, let's assume Leave has them in the bag. The bulk of the other 37% that Leave need to win are political moderates of one sort or another that think we have too much, or far too much immigration. Joining the EEA will keep the former, and lose the later, and only replacing them with a few tens of thousands of free trade libertarians, who will probably vote Leave in any case.
I would take the approach that most of that 37% are not so concerned with immigration, but are middle class homeowners who therefore have something to lose from a hard Brexit landing if the economics are wrong.
On principle they would like to leave, but will not vote to lose their job or their house or even their current standard of living. It is these people that will make the difference - home counties tories.
I've seen all this before, but the polling recently (and usually shown here) tends to favour the idea that Economics trumps all else.
Well then we disagree. Personally I am going to take a 90,000 member stratified random sample with face to face interviews over a online panel survey every day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays, especially as voter are largely sceptical that OUT is really going to make that much difference economically, the 2-3% drop in GDP mentioned in the more pessimistic economics documents is less damage than the worse year of Gordon Brown. Personally I know no one that thinks a Leave is going to be a big economic issue, seems voters have more confidence in our country than politicians, maybe that is why Remain are struggling to get traction.
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Maybe Obama can give his opinion too...
Poland about to say goodbye to rather a lot of EU investment when the UK pulls out. I suspect that the reaction is just someone being embarrassed when their dirty linen gets aired in public.
Infrastructure funds, remittances, hoping to get our troops stationed there to pay for their defence etc. Big financial loser from Brexit (which necessarily implies we are big financial winners).
Good speech by Bojo, impressed.
Remain is now reduced to puerile ad hominem attacks - they have admitted by doing so they have lost the argument.
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Happy neither of them get a vote
The polish minister is a friend of Boris
Indeed but he has a job to do, I am sure they will have a drink and chat about it some other time. Everyone understands that sounding tough with other governments goes down well with the voters, and everyone understand that those other governments have to reply.
I remember well the comment here from Nick Palmer, that a lot of professional politicians make good friends with others in their trade, even if they are from different sides of the aisle. They all know what each other need to say and they have a beer and talk about it as gentlemen (and ladies no doubt) at the end of the day...
It has been said that politicians usually prefer friends on the benches opposite, as they are only the enemy in the big game, not some that is actively after their job. Its difficult to be stabbed in the back from the benches opposite
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Maybe Obama can give his opinion too...
Poland about to say goodbye to rather a lot of EU investment when the UK pulls out. I suspect that the reaction is just someone being embarrassed when their dirty linen gets aired in public.
Infrastructure funds, remittances, hoping to get our troops stationed there to pay for their defence etc. Big financial loser from Brexit (which necessarily implies we are big financial winners).
Good speech by Bojo, impressed.
Remain is now reduced to puerile ad hominem attacks - they have admitted by doing so they have lost the argument.
It will be interesting to see how the PM bringing up ze war works out in the polls.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
I had my sister on the phone last night, she lives in Herefordshire, and has received no literature from anyone on the PCC elections except her polling card, so she googled around to try and find some details of the candidates, and read them all in detail, before going to vote. At the vote she discovered that she was not in West Midlands PCC as she expected in their location, but West Mercia PCC, so she had examined the wrong candidates profiles, and instead had to resort to pinning the tail on the political donkey... and they wonder why turnout is low.
I think the problem as much as anything is a lack of enthusiasm within the *parties*. On the one hand, producing 1m+ leaflets for a county like W Yorks (i.e. one per household) won't be cheap. I don't know about pricing on that scale but I'd assume something in a fairly wide ballpark of £20k. On the other, the party organisations ought to be able to fund and deliver it - they too have many members across an area that size.
However, the wards and constituencies are remote from the PCC candidate and not particularly keen to change that. They're far more interested in their own local elections. Even getting local election literature to include a section on the PCC candidate is a hit-and-miss operation. It's not something that can be mandated or instructed on a county-wide basis because leaflets are arranged locally. The net result being that little to nothing gets out. I'm sure there must be a way round it but none of the parties seems to have worked it out yet.
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
I had my sister on the phone last night, she lives in Herefordshire, and has received no literature from anyone on the PCC elections except her polling card, so she googled around to try and find some details of the candidates, and read them all in detail, before going to vote. At the vote she discovered that she was not in West Midlands PCC as she expected in their location, but West Mercia PCC, so she had examined the wrong candidates profiles, and instead had to resort to pinning the tail on the political donkey... and they wonder why turnout is low.
Sorry, but anyone who lives there and thinks Herefordshire is in the West Mids police area should be denied the vote!
(I'm only annoyed because she didn't decide to spoil her ballot!)
I'll take the fifth on that But serious most voters will have not received any literature, not bothered with the googling, and then in the absence of useful information, not bothered to vote, hence the crappy turnout. At the very least there should be a non-partisan leaflet, may be produced by the PCC itself, that sets out who is standing in the area and their contact details, and possibly adds a provided paragraph of basic policy platform.
Anecdote alert. I saw three big Vote Leave signs next to the M6 yesterday. It will be interesting to see how many signs go up around the country over the next few weeks.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
We have to factor in swingback in the final fortnight and last minute bottlers in the polling booth, though.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Just out of interest how many of the available seats did UKIP stand in?
Surely the PCC elections are a better sign of how the UKIP vote is holding up.
Given the lamentable turnout I would be nervous of calling the PCC elections a better sign of anything.
The turnouts varied from genuinely lamentable to fairly respectable depending on what other elections were being held. The Welsh turnouts were all over 40%, for example, and my own Force area (W Yorks), had a 33% turnout which while hardly earth-shattering isn't disastrous either. On the other hand, where there were few or no elections, turnout tended to be in the low 20s.
I had my sister on the phone last night, she lives in Herefordshire, and has received no literature from anyone on the PCC elections except her polling card, so she googled around to try and find some details of the candidates, and read them all in detail, before going to vote. At the vote she discovered that she was not in West Midlands PCC as she expected in their location, but West Mercia PCC, so she had examined the wrong candidates profiles, and instead had to resort to pinning the tail on the political donkey... and they wonder why turnout is low.
I think the problem as much as anything is a lack of enthusiasm within the *parties*. On the one hand, producing 1m+ leaflets for a county like W Yorks (i.e. one per household) won't be cheap. I don't know about pricing on that scale but I'd assume something in a fairly wide ballpark of £20k. On the other, the party organisations ought to be able to fund and deliver it - they too have many members across an area that size.
However, the wards and constituencies are remote from the PCC candidate and not particularly keen to change that. They're far more interested in their own local elections. Even getting local election literature to include a section on the PCC candidate is a hit-and-miss operation. It's not something that can be mandated or instructed on a county-wide basis because leaflets are arranged locally. The net result being that little to nothing gets out. I'm sure there must be a way round it but none of the parties seems to have worked it out yet.
Our Labour leaflet for the council election included a section on the PCC candidate. I received nothing from any other parties related to the PCC election (and only the Greens for the locals, but then it is a Labour / Green ward).
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Some people would go so far as to say that immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a race issue. It currently is at the moment because (predominantly) white Europeans get favourable treatment over (predominantly) brown Asians and Africans. It could be an issue about skills, languages and utility to the country.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
Mr. E, depends how quickly they can improve. Regulations change next year, though I'm unfamiliar with the detail. It may be an opportunity to shuffle the running order.
Next year's changes are mainly to the chassis of the cars, the PU will be the same formula as they currently use. The negotiations ongoing are to scrap the 'tokens' system of engine development, which will allow for faster changes and in theory close up the field and make the cars less reliable. If this happens then Honda would really need more cars running.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Oh, faux outrage, is that the same faux outrage when Labour are accused of anti semitism?
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
The trouble is that he's gone in so hard and publicly on day one of the campaign proper with Wargate that, if it seriously backfires, people might start to heavily discount any other warnings he gives over the next 6 weeks.
Hardly earth shattering but better than losing them, while a repeat of the 2015 vote share implies that 12-13% of the national electorate is locked in to UK independence.
Overall, Leave need something like 70% of the right wing vote (Con/UKIP) plus 30% of the left on an assumption of uniform turnout comparable to 2015.
UKIP also outpolled the Lib Dems in the PCC elections (which took place throughout England and Wales) by 450,000.
Just as a matter of interest, how many LibDem PCC were standing? I see UKIP were almost everywhere.
Sky reporting Boris is in trouble with the Foreign Ministers of Poland and Sweden for saying the EU were at fault for Ukraine, following similar accusations by Farage and Le Pen, and siding with Putin
Happy neither of them get a vote
The polish minister is a friend of Boris
Indeed but he has a job to do, I am sure they will have a drink and chat about it some other time. Everyone understands that sounding tough with other governments goes down well with the voters, and everyone understand that those other governments have to reply.
I remember well the comment here from Nick Palmer, that a lot of professional politicians make good friends with others in their trade, even if they are from different sides of the aisle. They all know what each other need to say and they have a beer and talk about it as gentlemen (and ladies no doubt) at the end of the day...
It has been said that politicians usually prefer friends on the benches opposite, as they are only the enemy in the big game, not some that is actively after their job. Its difficult to be stabbed in the back from the benches opposite
I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. There are people you can enjoy spending time with in all parties, and there are untrustworthy shits in all parties. You find out quickly who you can trust and who's constantly on manoeuvres to use what you say against you (though they'll be on manoeuvres against everyone else too). You can easily make good friends with people on your own side even if you end up competing for the same job. Similarly, you can make good friends with those in other parties although you make have to campaign and speak against them.
It's also worth remembering that party isn't the only dividing line. Local interests, single-issue campaigns and so on can all bring together politicians from different sides to support or propose particular things, and that can result in friendships not dissimilar to those of party.
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
We have to factor in swingback in the final fortnight and last minute bottlers in the polling booth, though.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Keep fighting!
The Govt. have already gone for early swingback to Remain with clattering tackles that make Norman Hunter look like a shrinking violet. And yet... those poll leads for Leave still keep coming out.
Some of us have been saying that Remain has blown all its fireworks at once like an Oban display. At best, Remain is going to suffer from diminishing return now. At worst, they are heaping ridicule upon themselves with their frankly bizarre claims that would cause even Chicken Licken to pause and ask "Hang on - is that right?"
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Oh, faux outrage, is that the same faux outrage when Labour are accused of anti semitism?
I'm sick of people hinting at racism in Ukip
It would help if their candidates stopped giving everybody the 'wrong' impression. "They just had to suspend someone for wanting to shoot an Asian if he became Prime Minister. And a couple of days before that it was for anti-semitic abuse. And before that there was lady who just doesn’t like the faces of negroes. Janice Atkinson - now expelled from the party for financial irregularities - called someone a “ting-tong”"
Anecdote alert. I saw three big Vote Leave signs next to the M6 yesterday. It will be interesting to see how many signs go up around the country over the next few weeks.
There are 3 just outside Durham on the A167 heading up to where the Cock 'o' The North used to be.
(Didn't someone say Vote Leave had run out of NHS flyers?)
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
We have to factor in swingback in the final fortnight and last minute bottlers in the polling booth, though.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Keep fighting!
The Govt. have already gone for early swingback to Remain with clattering tackles that make Norman Hunter look like a shrinking violet. And yet... those poll leads for Leave still keep coming out.
Some of us have been saying that Remain has blown all its fireworks at once like an Oban display. At best, Remain is going to suffer from diminishing return now. At worst, they are heaping ridicule upon themselves with their frankly bizarre claims that would cause even Chicken Licken to pause and ask "Hang on - is that right?"
I agree. It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
I agree. It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Oh, faux outrage, is that the same faux outrage when Labour are accused of anti semitism?
I'm sick of people hinting at racism in Ukip
It would help if their candidates stopped giving everybody the 'wrong' impression. "They just had to suspend someone for wanting to shoot an Asian if he became Prime Minister. And a couple of days before that it was for anti-semitic abuse. And before that there was lady who just doesn’t like the faces of negroes. Janice Atkinson - now expelled from the party for financial irregularities - called someone a “ting-tong”"
See what I mean? Cry racist all you like mate, but get your own house in order first, the cat is out of the bag.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It is very easy for social media to be unrepresentative of opinion and the leave are more motivated and are very engaged which is similar to the Scots Nats in the Scots referendum. Both this forum and Con home are dominated by leave but it does not follow that they speak for the silent majority
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
This.
Even as a frequent and vocal critic of Cameron I'm amazed how quickly his star has fallen.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It is very easy for social media to be unrepresentative of opinion and the leave are more motivated and are very engaged which is similar to the Scots Nats in the Scots referendum. Both this forum and Con home are dominated by leave but it does not follow that they speak for the silent majority
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Oh, faux outrage, is that the same faux outrage when Labour are accused of anti semitism?
I'm sick of people hinting at racism in Ukip
It would help if their candidates stopped giving everybody the 'wrong' impression. "They just had to suspend someone for wanting to shoot an Asian if he became Prime Minister. And a couple of days before that it was for anti-semitic abuse. And before that there was lady who just doesn’t like the faces of negroes. Janice Atkinson - now expelled from the party for financial irregularities - called someone a “ting-tong”"
Racism is a very strange choice of glasshouse for Labour supporters to choose to throw stones inside at this particular juncture.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
This.
Even as a frequent and vocal critic of Cameron I'm amazed how quickly his star has fallen.
Agree completely. I finally joined the Tories on the day Corbyn was elected Labour leader. I won't be renewing until DC goes, despite being a fan of his for a decade.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Are you really relying on a GMB commissioned poll
Are you really suggesting Yougov would bias a poll to suit the customer ?
It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
I am reminded of that scene in Pulp Fiction.... [language may be NSFW]
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Are you really relying on a GMB commissioned poll
No. But you wrote "It is very easy for social media to be unrepresentative of opinion". The Yougov/GMB was the first recent poll that I found with "trust" shown. May be you have alternative data but you asked for a representative sampled report and I quoted it. OK?
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Err, 'trusted on Europe' is not the same as 'trust and support'.
Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
But we knew that already.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
EU High Commissioner and Envoy (and former vice president of Swedish European Federalists) criticized Vote Leave speaker - shock!
Bildt displayed his commitment to the European Union project through joining the Young European Federalists and later becoming vice president of the Swedish section. In 2012, he stated, through his Twitter account, "I still believe that we must continue building federation of nation states. Necessary evolution to meet new challenges."
UK voters love being told how to vote by foreign heads..... Not. More please! Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
We have to factor in swingback in the final fortnight and last minute bottlers in the polling booth, though.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Keep fighting!
The Govt. have already gone for early swingback to Remain with clattering tackles that make Norman Hunter look like a shrinking violet. And yet... those poll leads for Leave still keep coming out.
Some of us have been saying that Remain has blown all its fireworks at once like an Oban display. At best, Remain is going to suffer from diminishing return now. At worst, they are heaping ridicule upon themselves with their frankly bizarre claims that would cause even Chicken Licken to pause and ask "Hang on - is that right?"
I agree. It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
Does Purdah affect Cameron? Is he restricted to speaking in a personal capacity without access to Government resources? Maybe LEAVE would rather he kept digging.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
This.
Even as a frequent and vocal critic of Cameron I'm amazed how quickly his star has fallen.
Agree completely. I finally joined the Tories on the day Corbyn was elected Labour leader. I won't be renewing until DC goes, despite being a fan of his for a decade.
Very honest of you, I was a small c voter for years, when Cameron appeared on the back of a sleigh pulled by huskies his card was marked for me. I appreciate why tories like(d) him, after years of Blair they had a chance, but anybody could see they were voting for the same bloke in a different colour rosette.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Curious to understand what Labour voters see to trust in Corbyn's EU position. He has one arse cheek in Remain, one in Leave as he unconvincingly says he will fall on the Remain side of the fence....
Does Purdah affect Cameron? Is he restricted to speaking in a personal capacity without access to Government resources? Maybe LEAVE would rather he kept digging.
He loses Govt resources so cannot invent new stuff and should not use SPADs in work time. But as a front man he is doing very badly for REMAIN and very badly for the Conservative party. Corbyn is probably very happy with those two wins?
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Curious to understand what Labour voters see to trust in Corbyn's EU position. He has one arse cheek in Remain, one in Leave as he unconvincingly says he will fall on the Remain side of the fence....
But they will trust what he tells them. Labour voters make up half REMAIN's support.....
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Some people would go so far as to say that immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a race issue. It currently is at the moment because (predominantly) white Europeans get favourable treatment over (predominantly) brown Asians and Africans. It could be an issue about skills, languages and utility to the country.
The point I was trying to make is that part of ukips support is derived from people from whom immigration is a big deal. They wouldn't however contemplate voting for Britain First or the BNP. They also wouldn't vote for ukip if they were aligned with either of these parties. I think that was what Nick Palmer was saying. Eastern European migrants are as likely to be subjected to racism as anyone else regardless of skin colour.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
You can't be serious.
Cameron is Remain's only real credible front man, and at least until recently a lot of people took him seriously (after this recent war bullshit maybe not so much). Any Leaver, and especially any non-Tory leaver is going to be nailed on for doing the maximum damage to Cameron as a proxy for doing damage to Remain.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Err, 'trusted on Europe' is not the same as 'trust and support'.
Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
But we knew that already.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
Because deep down they want him on their side. If Cameron was on Leave, Leave would win this easily.
It could just be that Corbyn is pulling a masterstroke, allowing Cameron enough rope to hang himself over the EU and stepping in afterwards to proclaim Labour the real party of the EU as the tories rip themselves apart. Of course its possible the tories will kiss and make up, but not under Cameron, he's toast regardless.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
You can't be serious.
Cameron is Remain's only real credible front man, and at least until recently a lot of people took him seriously (after this recent war bullshit maybe not so much). Any Leaver, and especially any non-Tory leaver is going to be nailed on for doing the maximum damage to Cameron as a proxy for doing damage to Remain.
And if he'd taken the opposite side, the other side would be doing the same. So what? It's not exactly news that for the last couple of decades the Conservative Party has been split on this. Cameron has actually done a quite remarkable job in keeping the party unified for nearly all of the ten years he's been leader.
Chillax. When the referendum is over, it will be over, and Cameron will be replaced some time in the next couple of years. He'll have his place in history as one of the most successful PMs of the post-war period, and life will go on without him leading the party.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
You can't be serious.
Cameron is Remain's only real credible front man, and at least until recently a lot of people took him seriously (after this recent war bullshit maybe not so much). Any Leaver, and especially any non-Tory leaver is going to be nailed on for doing the maximum damage to Cameron as a proxy for doing damage to Remain.
Exactly.
And things are looking good in this regard. The PM's stock with the public is dropping fast as he not only associates himself strongly with an organisation (the EU) which is generally unpopular, but engages in all kinds of hysterical scaremongering and rubbishing of his own country and connives with foreign politicians in attempts at bullying the public as well.
He must be very confident about whatever future he has planned after politics, btw.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
... Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
FACT CHECK Mr Nabav you should look carefully at the numbers. They are in small type. Of course just an honest mistake by you and you had no intention to mislead? Con voters from 2015 in the Yougov/GMB report. For REMAIN = 33% For LEAVE = 53%
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Some people would go so far as to say that immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a race issue. It currently is at the moment because (predominantly) white Europeans get favourable treatment over (predominantly) brown Asians and Africans. It could be an issue about skills, languages and utility to the country.
The point I was trying to make is that part of ukips support is derived from people from whom immigration is a big deal. They wouldn't however contemplate voting for Britain First or the BNP. They also wouldn't vote for ukip if they were aligned with either of these parties. I think that was what Nick Palmer was saying. Eastern European migrants are as likely to be subjected to racism as anyone else regardless of skin colour.
As are white people who attend synagogues if they're unfortunate enough to come across some Labour representatives.
FFS shut up with your racist accusations, its tiring and boring and a last resort for those who are floundering.
UKIP is clearly withering on the vine. 2014 was its high point, but now it just looks samey and unappealing. I was lambasted on here when I called it out as a fad a few years ago, but it's interesting how many Leavers and euro-phobic Tories are now keen to distant themselves from it when back in the day they were happy to ride on its coattails. I can't see UKIP lasting, though Carswell will probably linger on as a kind of novelty independent.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
... Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
FACT CHECK Mr Nabav you should look carefully at the numbers. They are in small type. Of course just an honest mistake by you and you had no intention to mislead? Con voters from 2015 in the Yougov/GMB report. For REMAIN = 33% For LEAVE = 53%
So some leavers trust him as well? OK, fair enough, I didn't notice that.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Err, 'trusted on Europe' is not the same as 'trust and support'.
Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
But we knew that already.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
Because deep down they want him on their side. If Cameron was on Leave, Leave would win this easily.
Hell hath no fury as a Tory Eurosceptic scorned.
What do you mean 'deep down'? Of course Leavers would prefer the Prime Minister to be on their side - in other news, the Pope is a Catholic etc.
Your assertion that Leave would win easily with Cameron implies to me that you don't actually think there are any winning arguments to support our continued membership. I quite agree.
Cameron's effect on Labour voters = recent GMB/Yougov survey. 11% trust him on the EU.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
The number of unhappy Tories commenting on Cameron across social media et al is stunning. I've not seen anyone praising him in ages. We can enjoy a laugh at PMQs, but the trust has evaporated.
It can be seen in the research. GMB/Yougov "trusted on Europe". Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage. Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Err, 'trusted on Europe' is not the same as 'trust and support'.
Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
But we knew that already.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
Because deep down they want him on their side. If Cameron was on Leave, Leave would win this easily. Hell hath no fury as a Tory Eurosceptic scorned.
Would I want Cameron on LEAVE side? Yes at the start. But I would also not want him fronting a campaign for LABOUR votes.... So yes I have come to the conclusion that he is doing LEAVE a huge favour albeit whilst severely damaging the Conservative party.
UKIP is clearly withering on the vine. 2014 was its high point, but now it just looks samey and unappealing. I was lambasted on here when I called it out as a fad a few years ago, but it's interesting how many Leavers and euro-phobic Tories are now keen to distant themselves from it when back in the day they were happy to ride on its coattails. I can't see UKIP lasting, though Carswell will probably linger on as a kind of novelty independent.
UKIP came first in the UK's European elections and has the most MEPS of any national group in the EU parliament.
Had UKIP got 2% of the first past the post seats last year they would have 12 or 13 MPs. They got 0.15% of the FPTP seats then - so 2% is nearly 14 times as much.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself is increasingly hapless and disorganised?
He was out-bonkered by two guys even further to the right, who campaigned almost exclusively on immigration and made him look like a boring centrist. Add the BNP and Britain First guys to UKIP and they hit 5.3% together, putting them above the LibDems and just behind the Greens. But in fairness you have to say that some people who voted UKIP would not have touched them if they'd been in bed with Britain First.
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing
Oh, faux outrage, is that the same faux outrage when Labour are accused of anti semitism?
I'm sick of people hinting at racism in Ukip
Anti semitism is vile as is all racism. I can't imagine I'd ever defend the Labour party about anything. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
To make it easier for you. Lots of ukip supporters wouldn't dream of voting for them if they were aligned with the BNP or Britain First. Most because they support Brexit for trade or sovereignty reasons and racism repels them, some because they wouldn't want to vote with a bunch of racist maniacs.
Comments
Torro Rosso have contacted Honda about using their engine in 2017, this is in addition to Sauber. Honda would supply 2017 engines to both teams, but they would not get development data which remains exclusive to McLaren as part of the works deal they have. For both teams it would be an upgrade on the 2016 Ferrari engines they can expect for that year, especially now that Honda have sorted out their reliability issues and are looking to increase the engine power to match Ferrari and Mercedes over the coming year and in the break.
But doesn't Ron Dennis still have a veto?
If McLaren got beaten by Toro Rosso, that would prove embarrassing.
On principle they would like to leave, but will not vote to lose their job or their house or even their current standard of living. It is these people that will make the difference - home counties tories.
This is why Brexit will be a force for good across the whole of Europe: it will force the EU to democratically reform.
It will have no choice.
I think he wants Honda to maximise their output so that there is no chance of RBR or Williams muscling in late in the partnership without having to take the painful years of 2015 and 2016.
The Tories (today) wouldn't be proposing it, and I think it'd be a fringe issue confined to places like London and Manchester.
(I'm only annoyed because she didn't decide to spoil her ballot!)
Good speech by Bojo, impressed.
More please!
Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/founding-fathers-2016-donald-trump-america-first-foreign-policy-isolationist-213873
However, the wards and constituencies are remote from the PCC candidate and not particularly keen to change that. They're far more interested in their own local elections. Even getting local election literature to include a section on the PCC candidate is a hit-and-miss operation. It's not something that can be mandated or instructed on a county-wide basis because leaflets are arranged locally. The net result being that little to nothing gets out. I'm sure there must be a way round it but none of the parties seems to have worked it out yet.
More please!
Meanwhile ICM has a 2 point lead for LEAVE and applying the +1LEAVE -1REMAIN tc adjustment this is really a 4 point lead for LEAVE... But keep it very quiet as we do not want to interupt Cameron leading the REMAIN team to convince Labour voters how to vote.
Cameron's effect on Scottish Labour voters just prior to Indie vote. 33% trusted him on Scot Indie advice.
Is this funny as f**k?
You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
We have to factor in swingback in the final fortnight and last minute bottlers in the polling booth, though.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Keep fighting!
I'm sick of people hinting at racism in Ukip
It's also worth remembering that party isn't the only dividing line. Local interests, single-issue campaigns and so on can all bring together politicians from different sides to support or propose particular things, and that can result in friendships not dissimilar to those of party.
If Leave can get a consistent lead up to at least 6-8% then I'll believe there's a serious chance.
Keep fighting!
The Govt. have already gone for early swingback to Remain with clattering tackles that make Norman Hunter look like a shrinking violet. And yet... those poll leads for Leave still keep coming out.
Some of us have been saying that Remain has blown all its fireworks at once like an Oban display. At best, Remain is going to suffer from diminishing return now. At worst, they are heaping ridicule upon themselves with their frankly bizarre claims that would cause even Chicken Licken to pause and ask "Hang on - is that right?"
https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/05/04/in-venezuela-residents-resort-to-hunting-dogs-on-the-street/
"They just had to suspend someone for wanting to shoot an Asian if he became Prime Minister. And a couple of days before that it was for anti-semitic abuse. And before that there was lady who just doesn’t like the faces of negroes. Janice Atkinson - now expelled from the party for financial irregularities - called someone a “ting-tong”"
(Didn't someone say Vote Leave had run out of NHS flyers?)
Some of us have been saying that Remain has blown all its fireworks at once like an Oban display. At best, Remain is going to suffer from diminishing return now. At worst, they are heaping ridicule upon themselves with their frankly bizarre claims that would cause even Chicken Licken to pause and ask "Hang on - is that right?"
I agree. It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
I agree. It will all depend on the atmosphere at the end of the campaign. If Cameron keeps churning out ever more bizarre threats then I think that the electorate may just decide to turn on the establishment big time.
55,735,757 registered voters
69,672 out of 94,276 voting precincts counted
Implies a turnout of 82%
Wow. Not much sign of voter apathy here, people in Central Manila were queuing for four hours to vote in temperatures of 43C.
(For the boxing enthusiasts, Manny Pacquiao looks nailed on to be a Senator in the next session)
Even as a frequent and vocal critic of Cameron I'm amazed how quickly his star has fallen.
Con voters 47% Cameron, 48% Boris, 29% Farage.
Lab voters 56% Corbyn.
It used to be Cameron scoring circa 80% on trust and support from Con voters. Now he has less support than Corbyn gets from his Labour core.
Remain = Cameron = Guy with Silver revolver
Leave = Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ae6B7C05Nk
My opinion, FWIW, is that UKIP will not prosper until the organization is properly managed.
Basically the poll shows that the Conservative voters are split on the EU roughly 50-50, with half taking Cameron's side and half Boris' side.
But we knew that already.
Really, I don't know why some Leavers here are so ludicrously obsessed with David Cameron personally. It's one of the weirder aspects of the whole EU issue. Luckily it's not the case in the Conservative Party generally.
Does Purdah affect Cameron? Is he restricted to speaking in a personal capacity without access to Government resources? Maybe LEAVE would rather he kept digging.
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/crispin-blunt-only-brexit-offers-a-positive-vision-for-britain-s-role-in-the-world-a3243351.html
NCP gives it 22.3% (http://www.ncpolitics.uk/euref/)
Betfair hovers around 30% implied probability
Not sure about the latest ARSE4EU
Eastern European migrants are as likely to be subjected to racism as anyone else regardless of skin colour.
Cameron is Remain's only real credible front man, and at least until recently a lot of people took him seriously (after this recent war bullshit maybe not so much). Any Leaver, and especially any non-Tory leaver is going to be nailed on for doing the maximum damage to Cameron as a proxy for doing damage to Remain.
Hell hath no fury as a Tory Eurosceptic scorned.
Shame on Boris. I hope he didn't find any polyps up there.
Chillax. When the referendum is over, it will be over, and Cameron will be replaced some time in the next couple of years. He'll have his place in history as one of the most successful PMs of the post-war period, and life will go on without him leading the party.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-36248925
Rousseff's impeachment vote has been annulled.
And things are looking good in this regard. The PM's stock with the public is dropping fast as he not only associates himself strongly with an organisation (the EU) which is generally unpopular, but engages in all kinds of hysterical scaremongering and rubbishing of his own country and connives with foreign politicians in attempts at bullying the public as well.
He must be very confident about whatever future he has planned after politics, btw.
Mr Nabav you should look carefully at the numbers. They are in small type. Of course just an honest mistake by you and you had no intention to mislead?
Con voters from 2015 in the Yougov/GMB report.
For REMAIN = 33% For LEAVE = 53%
FFS shut up with your racist accusations, its tiring and boring and a last resort for those who are floundering.
Your assertion that Leave would win easily with Cameron implies to me that you don't actually think there are any winning arguments to support our continued membership. I quite agree.
I think UKIP will last, for the medium term, at least. Of course, if you really want to harm the party you could always vote Leave