Chilcot report published after referendum shocker.
What "referendum shocker" ? ....
Haven't you heard the great conspiracy theory? Apparently if Chilcot drags Blair and Mandelson's names through the mud it will do immeasurable damage to Remain, so Chilcot has been leant on by Cameron and Brussels.
The report is ready and complete. Chilcott and Cameron have agreed on a date after the referendum. The question then follows is why?
The report will be a massive disappointment. Full of guff about Blair being wrong to think this and say that but acted in good faith or without duplicitous intent etc. Lessons will be learned waffle, drone, blah. Continue for several thousand pages. To quote a PB favourite. Unearth a great mass of no evidence.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Some people would go so far as to say that immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a race issue. It currently is at the moment because (predominantly) white Europeans get favourable treatment over (predominantly) brown Asians and Africans. It could be an issue about skills, languages and utility to the country.
The point I was trying to make is that part of ukips support is derived from people from whom immigration is a big deal. They wouldn't however contemplate voting for Britain First or the BNP. They also wouldn't vote for ukip if they were aligned with either of these parties. I think that was what Nick Palmer was saying. Eastern European migrants are as likely to be subjected to racism as anyone else regardless of skin colour.
As are white people who attend synagogues if they're unfortunate enough to come across some Labour representatives.
FFS shut up with your racist accusations, its tiring and boring and a last resort for those who are floundering.
Why do you keep going on about Labour. Its weird and irrelevant as I'm a conservative.
Again I'll make this really easy for you.
One simple question.
Would you vote for ukip if they were aligned with either the BNP or Britain First?
If you say no then Nick was obviously correct as he said some ukip supporters wouldn't vote for then in those circumstances. In which case I'll accept your apologies and we can put your silly comments down to misunderstanding.
If you say you would still support them you I'll let you work out what that means, but you needn't apologise.
A simple yes or now will suffice please. No hysterical rants about Labour or Cameron. Cheers.
The main beneficiary of the Chilcott report will be Chilcott, he's trousered a fortune
I sincerely hope he gets no thanks at all from anyone for his efforts. He is a disgrace and he should be in disgrace for the remainder of his days.
The whole thing has gone beyond ridicule, there'll be a flurry of denials and threats of legal action while he counts his money.
The trouble with reports on controversial issues that everyone already has an opinion about is that they judge the report by whether they agree with it. Hutton was widely praised for his relentless probing questioning of Tony Blair, until people read his conclusions.A report on something obscure like the reasons for a train crash makes sense, but I'm not sure that knowing what Chilcot thinks, either way, is going to leave us much the wiser.
That said, maybe we should wait for it to appear before we criticise it...
Apparently, because the Ukraine looked towards EU membership it invited Russian invasion upon itself. So much for national self-determination. Leave's constant excuse-making for Putin is certainly one of its more unsavoury aspects.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Apparently, because the Ukraine looked towards EU membership it invited Russian invasion upon itself. So much for national self-determination. Leave's constant excuse-making for Putin is certainly one of its more unsavoury aspects.
If we had had national self determiniation the Ukraine would have let its Russians go if they wanted to.
It's an absolute disgrace that the Chilcot report is so long. The idea is to form judgements, not to provide compendia of views. Just because we have the word processing power doesn't mean that we should use it.
Whether long or short it will be a damp squib, written in dreary prose and leading to nothing at all of any value.
The only conclusion one can draw from Cameron's risky, premature, overcooked and oddly faltering statement today is that private polling has caused an outbreak of political dysentery at Number 10.
They're scared.
An ITV poll this morning had it Remain 42% Leave 40%
To those who think hard campaigning by REMAIN signals means private polls signal LEAVE:
Do you think they would be campaigning less hard if private polls signalled REMAIN?
This stage is reminiscent of the over-the-top rhetoric against Scottish independence, Ed Miliband, and Jeremy Corbyn. Except that for once, PB comments is on the receiving side.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
The only conclusion one can draw from Cameron's risky, premature, overcooked and oddly faltering statement today is that private polling has caused an outbreak of political dysentery at Number 10.
They're scared.
I'd concluded Cammo just wanted to troll you having long been a reported PB devotee.
The main beneficiary of the Chilcott report will be Chilcott, he's trousered a fortune
I sincerely hope he gets no thanks at all from anyone for his efforts. He is a disgrace and he should be in disgrace for the remainder of his days.
The whole thing has gone beyond ridicule, there'll be a flurry of denials and threats of legal action while he counts his money.
The trouble with reports on controversial issues that everyone already has an opinion about is that they judge the report by whether they agree with it. Hutton was widely praised for his relentless probing questioning of Tony Blair, until people read his conclusions.A report on something obscure like the reasons for a train crash makes sense, but I'm not sure that knowing what Chilcot thinks, either way, is going to leave us much the wiser.
That said, maybe we should wait for it to appear before we criticise it...
Most of the evidence has already emerged at the inquiry.
In hindsight Blair made a wrong decision and used an unethical process to push through his decision. Twisting things and misleading is often how leaders get things done. Cameron and the referendum is the same process.
I had a read of Cameron's speech today and found it the usual vacuous waffle. There's the usual undercurrent that it's somehow unpatriotic to be opposed to whatever position he's trying to argue - it's a Blairite tactic to wrap yourself in the flag if your argument doesn't cover your embarrassment.
As Turkey and Norway seem quite happy to be part of European defence without being members of the EU while Ireland is happy to be part of the EU without being part of European defence, I don't understand Cameron's argument about the relevance of the EU in terms of security and defence. It's perfectly possible for nations to co-operate and collaborate without having to be in the same economic bloc.
Once again we shouldn't get hung up on campaign rhetoric - what people say before the result and what they'll say after the result are often two entirely different things. It doesn't benefit the EU or the UK to have an adversarial trading relationship so a new arrangement will be quickly formulated.
As to Cameron's persistent line about LEAVE not explaining its position, the same is true of REMAIN. Neither can afford a coherent vision of Britain's relationship with EU in 2020, let alone 2030 or beyond. LEAVE is constructing a series of negotiating positions (or should be) for the talks following the vote. LEAVE should be asking - what do we want and on what will we compromise ?
REMAIN has said nothing about the future either and in truth Cameron's "reforms" are not guaranteed in the event of a change of Government or Conservative leader. When the next "crisis", it's not as though anyone will be convinced by another Conservative Prime Minister, as Major and Cameron, flouncing or refusing to negotiate ?
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
When Bernanke and Greenspan suggested helicopter drops of money they didn't actually mean it, but Trump would probably do it literally.
I think in the event of a Trump presidency the UK should sign a Free Trade Agreement with him as soon as possible even if it's temporary. Because what americans will do with that cash is to spend it on foreign products and services.
I've been wondering about this. I certainly expected a stronger showing from UKIP in England and also for Peter Whittle to challenge for third place in London.
How to interpret it though? Is it a straw in the wind for the referendum or is it just that UKIP itself
Some? Read the Ukip sympathisers on here and tell me what they have in common with Britain First please.
Some ukip voters are obsessed with immigration and race and see ukip as an acceptable/respectable way of expressing their views at the ballot box. These people in many cases would never contemplate voting for an overtly racist party. Mr Palmer makes a fair point. You are correct to say ukip leaning supporters on here have little or nothing in common with Britain First. That is irrelevant to the comment made so the faux outrage was unnecessary.
Some people would go so far as to say that immigration isn't (or doesn't have to be) a race issue. It currently is at the moment because (predominantly) white Europeans get favourable treatment over (predominantly) brown Asians and Africans. It could be an issue about skills, languages and utility to the country.
The point I was trying to make is that part of ukips support is derived from people from whom immigration is a big deal. They wouldn't however contemplate voting for Britain First or the BNP. They also wouldn't vote for ukip if they were aligned with either of these parties. I think that was what Nick Palmer was saying. Eastern European migrants are as likely to be subjected to racism as anyone else regardless of skin colour.
As are white people who attend synagogues if they're unfortunate enough to come across some Labour representatives.
FFS shut up with your racist accusations, its tiring and boring and a last resort for those who are floundering.
Why do you keep going on about Labour. Its weird and irrelevant as I'm a conservative.
Again I'll make this really easy for you.
One simple question.
Would you vote for ukip if they were aligned with either the BNP or Britain First?
If you say no then Nick was obviously correct as he said some ukip supporters wouldn't vote for then in those circumstances. In which case I'll accept your apologies and we can put your silly comments down to misunderstanding.
If you say you would still support them you I'll let you work out what that means, but you needn't apologise.
A simple yes or now will suffice please. No hysterical rants about Labour or Cameron. Cheers.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
I had a read of Cameron's speech today and found it the usual vacuous waffle. There's the usual undercurrent that it's somehow unpatriotic to be opposed to whatever position he's trying to argue - it's a Blairite tactic to wrap yourself in the flag if your argument doesn't cover your embarrassment.
As Turkey and Norway seem quite happy to be part of European defence without being members of the EU while Ireland is happy to be part of the EU without being part of European defence, I don't understand Cameron's argument about the relevance of the EU in terms of security and defence. It's perfectly possible for nations to co-operate and collaborate without having to be in the same economic bloc.
Once again we shouldn't get hung up on campaign rhetoric - what people say before the result and what they'll say after the result are often two entirely different things. It doesn't benefit the EU or the UK to have an adversarial trading relationship so a new arrangement will be quickly formulated.
As to Cameron's persistent line about LEAVE not explaining its position, the same is true of REMAIN. Neither can afford a coherent vision of Britain's relationship with EU in 2020, let alone 2030 or beyond. LEAVE is constructing a series of negotiating positions (or should be) for the talks following the vote. LEAVE should be asking - what do we want and on what will we compromise ?
REMAIN has said nothing about the future either and in truth Cameron's "reforms" are not guaranteed in the event of a change of Government or Conservative leader. When the next "crisis", it's not as though anyone will be convinced by another Conservative Prime Minister, as Major and Cameron, flouncing or refusing to negotiate ?
When Bernanke and Greenspan suggested helicopter drops of money they didn't actually mean it, but Trump would probably do it literally.
I think in the event of a Trump presidency the UK should sign a Free Trade Agreement with him as soon as possible even if it's temporary. Because what americans will do with that cash is to spend it on foreign products and services.
OGH/TSE, I have the outlines of a thread header for you. How does one get it to you?
LEAVE Thread - Via carrier pigeon routed through the Bedford Hawk Sanctuary in July. REMAIN Thread - Via secure speed of light broadband routed through M15.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Some certainly not all, they will feel betrayed by the establishment
The main beneficiary of the Chilcott report will be Chilcott, he's trousered a fortune
I sincerely hope he gets no thanks at all from anyone for his efforts. He is a disgrace and he should be in disgrace for the remainder of his days.
The whole thing has gone beyond ridicule, there'll be a flurry of denials and threats of legal action while he counts his money.
The trouble with reports on controversial issues that everyone already has an opinion about is that they judge the report by whether they agree with it. Hutton was widely praised for his relentless probing questioning of Tony Blair, until people read his conclusions.A report on something obscure like the reasons for a train crash makes sense, but I'm not sure that knowing what Chilcot thinks, either way, is going to leave us much the wiser.
That said, maybe we should wait for it to appear before we criticise it...
A sneek preview: Blair made a decision to stand by the US come what may post 9/11. He agreed to support Bush the year before in Iraq, and thought he could straightforwardly topple Saddam Hussein in Iraq as he did in Kosovo and Sierra Leone. Whilst there was some intelligence it wasn't fully conclusive but probably enough to make a case from, so he and Campbell exaggerated the case for War. They then put some pressure on those within government and the civil service who disagreed.
There is insufficient evidence that it was illegal or legal and such conclusions would be highly subjective anyway. But Blair shouldn't have been so naive even if he thought it was the right thing to do.
OGH/TSE, I have the outlines of a thread header for you. How does one get it to you?
LEAVE Thread - Via carrier pigeon routed through the Bedford Hawk Sanctuary in July. REMAIN Thread - Via secure speed of light broadband routed through M15.
Hello from Cyprus! Looking forward to 35 minutes time and further release of the Panama papers. ...Which shouldn't cast Mr Cameron in a very favourable light, in particular Blairmore holdings, it's links to the fall of the Carroll trust and the links which go back to that address, 788 790 Finchley Road
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
Not a single Tory according to the scottish opinion polls, all the SNP gains in the 2015 GE were from LD's and Labour, at different time stages though.
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
Labour yes, but Tory?
malcolmg ?
You're suggesting he was a moderate and reasonable Tory or Labour voter before the referendum? Prepare for a thick ear
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
Labour yes, but Tory?
malcolmg ?
You're suggesting he was a moderate and reasonable Tory or Labour voter before the referendum? Prepare for a thick ear
This is the calm before the storm, if EU ref produces a narrow Remain as is most likely UKIP will get as big a boost from Tory Leave voters as the LDs did from Labour voters after Iraq, even if they do not see an SNP style rise UKIP should ironically be praying for a narrow defeat in the referendum, a Leave vote would effectively see the party die off while a big Remain would also hit it but a close Remain would be ideal for Farage
Surely most reasonable minded Tory Leave voters will accept the result and carry on supporting the party whilst disagreeing with that part of their policy.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Lots of moderate and reasonable Tory and Labour voters in Scotland switched to the SNP after the 45/55 result.
Yeah...but mainly Labour. Can't help thinking the possibility of a Corbyn led government might do wonders for focussing peoples voting intentions. Unless you foresee UKIP being in a position to win a majority?
OGH/TSE, I have the outlines of a thread header for you. How does one get it to you?
LEAVE Thread - Via carrier pigeon routed through the Bedford Hawk Sanctuary in July. REMAIN Thread - Via secure speed of light broadband routed through M15.
Haha! Finished it now - actually looks beyond the referendum.
What is it about Leavers that makes them turn into Putin fanboys?
Shame on Boris. I hope he didn't find any polyps up there.
Let's face it, if Satan came out for Brexit most of the Leavers would turn against God.
I do worry if Remains win, some of the passionate Leavers might go all Jonestown
I'm not so pessimistic. For most Leavers a Remain victory will come as a blessed relief. They can finally rid themselves of this nasty obsession and get on with their lives. I speak as someone who was a rabid euro-phobe for years. I've found that being a convert to Remain is almost therapeutic - you feel relaxed, stable and true to yourself.
Excellent! It's a lovely feeling, isn't it? You'll also find it has massive intellectual benefits. For example, unshackled from dogma, you can take a step back and punctiliously analyse the Leave commentary on here - a lot of it really is the most vapid, self-congratulating drivel.
You underestimate yourself, I can only dream of acquiring your level of intellect.
I'd imagine that is true.
Could you answer a simple question for me please?
Would you support UKIP if they were aligned with the BNP or Britain First?
If the answer is no, then that proves the point I was making earlier that some UKIP supporters wouldn't support the party under those circumstances. I will of course accept your heartfelt apologies.
If you would continue to support them..well I'll let you work that out..But on the bright side you needn't say sorry,
Comments
Of course, that means Cameron will have lost.
Full of guff about Blair being wrong to think this and say that but acted in good faith or without duplicitous intent etc.
Lessons will be learned waffle, drone, blah.
Continue for several thousand pages.
To quote a PB favourite. Unearth a great mass of no evidence.
The foolish man has built his house upon the sand.
That said, maybe we should wait for it to appear before we criticise it...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/long-lines-at-polls-in-philippines-as-the-punisher-rodrigo-duter/
15% ahead of his nearest rival with 80% of the vote counted on a unprecedented 81% turnout.
Another country goes heavily for an anti-establishment leader.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/does-anybody-actually-think-the-eu-guarantees-peace-and-stability/
Apparently, because the Ukraine looked towards EU membership it invited Russian invasion upon itself. So much for national self-determination. Leave's constant excuse-making for Putin is certainly one of its more unsavoury aspects.
Still the threads on here should be fun!
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/729689930792882176
Do you think they would be campaigning less hard if private polls signalled REMAIN?
This stage is reminiscent of the over-the-top rhetoric against Scottish independence, Ed Miliband, and Jeremy Corbyn. Except that for once, PB comments is on the receiving side.
I'm not overly enamoured with the current education policy but its not going to make me join Labour...
Of course if you just select the figures you want and ignore the rest then it is actually a commanding lead for Remain
In hindsight Blair made a wrong decision and used an unethical process to push through his decision. Twisting things and misleading is often how leaders get things done. Cameron and the referendum is the same process.
https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/729681809349455872
When Bernanke and Greenspan suggested helicopter drops of money they didn't actually mean it, but Trump would probably do it literally.
I think in the event of a Trump presidency the UK should sign a Free Trade Agreement with him as soon as possible even if it's temporary.
Because what americans will do with that cash is to spend it on foreign products and services.
Nova Fadeno
REMAIN Thread - Via secure speed of light broadband routed through M15.
There is insufficient evidence that it was illegal or legal and such conclusions would be highly subjective anyway. But Blair shouldn't have been so naive even if he thought it was the right thing to do.
Here endeth Chilcott.
New Thread
Posting a blank is very bleak midwinter.
Chuckles... Damn pc skills!!!
Could you answer a simple question for me please?
Would you support UKIP if they were aligned with the BNP or Britain First?
If the answer is no, then that proves the point I was making earlier that some UKIP supporters wouldn't support the party under those circumstances. I will of course accept your heartfelt apologies.
If you would continue to support them..well I'll let you work that out..But on the bright side you needn't say sorry,
Cheers