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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The May elections less than 4 weeks away – Why so few Torie

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  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    This Politician Didn’t Notice The Pigs Fucking Behind Him When He Gave A TV Interview

    “We like to organise our visits to send a message in pictorial terms exactly what we’re asking for,” said Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie, unaware of what the pigs were doing in the background.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/who-said-politics-was-boaring?utm_term=.dg5Da6m9A9#.ac2PrjONLN

    Hmm, Politics 101 – never give an interview with children or animals in frame.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    And if you want to "Chercher la femme"....... I am happy to oblige. :)
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894

    This Politician Didn’t Notice The Pigs Fucking Behind Him When He Gave A TV Interview

    “We like to organise our visits to send a message in pictorial terms exactly what we’re asking for,” said Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie, unaware of what the pigs were doing in the background.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/who-said-politics-was-boaring?utm_term=.dg5Da6m9A9#.ac2PrjONLN

    Not the warm up act for Dave I hope
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    And if you want to "Chercher la femme"....... I am happy to oblige. :)
    Such a shame I won't be able to make tonight.
  • Options
    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    So in 1997 Cameron invests in a perfectly legitimate and legal offshore fund. 13 years later he sells this investment.Throughout the course of the investment he paid all due UK taxes on his investment. Somehow this now means that 90% of the news airtime is about this perfectly legal investment with all and sundry giving their opinion.

    In the words of an investment expert this morning there was a "massive misunderstanding" about what Mr Cameron had invested in.

    He said it was a hedge fund that was "about as boring as it gets for investments", adding that it would not be used for avoiding tax.

    "It's no different from Mr Cameron investing in a UK stock,"

    Apparently it is now a resigning matter. It is too mad for words

    What a sad country this is sometimes!!
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,242

    Interesting selection of flags behind these young would-be terrorists ...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-35984747

    Ha, my mother taught at Burleigh College.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited April 2016

    The Prime Minister is today facing a sleaze inquiry into his failure to declare his shares in a shady offshore fund.

    Campaigning Labour MP John Mann said he will refer David Cameron to the Parliamentary standards watchdog for keeping the £30,000-worth of offshore shares a secret during his years in Opposition.

    "Action will have to be taken, there's no question about it," Mr Mann told the Mirror.

    "He has broken the rules and principles of standards in public life.


    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-faces-sleaze-probe-7715449

    He is wrong. You don't have to declare such a small holding in a unit trust. And I would think he knows that too.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    I think it will take more than that.

    Dave will also have to do something Very Right Wing to raise the moral of the troops and show he isn't an effete Guardianista.

    Dusting himself off, reshuffling the deck and then carrying on just the same as before won't quite cut it.
    On the last two occasions that the government tried to do something Very Right Wing (tax credit cuts, benefit cuts), it was sabotaged by some of the Very Right Wing MPs who David Cameron was looking to throw some red meat. So if David Cameron were to go down that route, the Very Right Wing will need to play their part too in telling the more hostile of their number to sit down and shut up.
    As you said on the last thread, party management is part of it. But both those measures were mainstream budgetary measures part of the Government's Plan A just with George Osborne's pawprints all over them.

    It was about damaging Osborne. With Gove as Chancellor it'll be a different story.

    But backbench MPs will expect to see meaningful change. I expect more non-fiscal measures.

    The full compulsory academy plan might be part of this but it's very ill thought through.

    I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools and some extra measures on the HRA bill (still undeclared) and immigration.
    "I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools"

    As someone with a young son, I want to see schools that work. Decreasing the illiteracy and innumeracy rates from their long-term p*ss poor rate (~20%) is vital. Not just for my kid, or those kids, but society as a whole.

    It'd be nice if they made a profit as well, but ensuring we have kids that leave school able to function in society is absolutely vital.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894

    This is wider than the EU ref. It's simply crystallised my opinion.

    Wanderer said:

    I pay a lot of attention to my own behaviour when sharing stuff on social media.

    I'll promote generic Tory stuff, but nothing for Cameron or Osborne now. Ditto defending either. I'm feeling duped, and it takes a lot of piss taking to lose my loyalty.

    Incidentally, I saw Jimmy Carr host an awards ceremony where as part of his stand-up routine he talked about his experience of being on the front pages of the newspapers for tax avoidance. I'm not generally a fan of his but he was extremely funny. As part of his routine, he said something along the lines of:

    "And when the Prime Minister breaks away from a G20 summit to condemn you personally, that's when you realise that you've got a problem."

    He is probably enjoying this week enormously.


    Carr's used that line before - it is good.

    I actually feel a bit sorry for Cameron, it doesn't seem he's done anything particularly egregious - nothing like Carr.

    But then I remember how Cameron's trying to rig the referendum, and so I stop caring.

    I get that you support Leave and Cameron doesn't, but how do you feel you were duped? He said there'd be a referendum and here it is.
    Really? What else is there?

    You've certainly changed your tune since May last year.
    It's called following the crowd. It seems to be all the rage.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    Is it the usual password tonight?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Things I Never Expected To See In The Guardian

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/07/9-million-pro-eu-leaflet-in-campaign?CMP=share_btn_tw
    The £9m pro-EU leaflet says just one thing: we’re panicking
    Daniel Hannan
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    Is it the usual password tonight?
    Yes, the password is still 'Bilderberg'
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    tyson said:

    Last night I alluded to a beast of a super injunction- and it wasn't this threesome celebrity thing. My friend says it is known amongst a few journos. That's what I thought might come out at the Shooting Star tonight.

    I wrote a couple of days ago about a 'deviant' politician who the media may be protecting for political reasons because they consider him useful. IMO that's not healthy.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    edited April 2016
    Ever
    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

    Excuse the non sequitur but every time I see Hunchman on here it reminds me of Woody Allen's line "Of course I like Wagner but every time I hear him I want to invade Poland"
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Things I Never Expected To See In The Guardian

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/07/9-million-pro-eu-leaflet-in-campaign?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The £9m pro-EU leaflet says just one thing: we’re panicking
    Daniel Hannan
    Is it me Ms Plato, or is the Guardian tippy-toeing to the right recently?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    And if you want to "Chercher la femme"....... I am happy to oblige. :)
    Such a shame I won't be able to make tonight.
    Oh! :(

    Will anyone nice be coming? Other than the wonderful OGH himself, of course.......

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,909
    Estobar said:

    Wasn't there that twitter hash tag a while back that was "trending" for weeks in regards to CameronMustGo or something similar. And all the tw@terati got ever so cross nobody was mentioning it.

    It's the BBC News and Sky News lead.

    The patronising arrogance towards twitter, when pb.com was disastrously wrong about the General Election, is so far beyond parody as to be amusing.

    Still, perhaps we should ask Lord Ashcroft's polling advice?
    PB had rather a good General Election. Okay, most of us underestimate the number of Conservative seats, but we were right to think that the Conservatives would come first.

    Twitter didn't have as good a General Election.
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    These PB meets are just fronts for the Illuminati lizards
    And if you want to "Chercher la femme"....... I am happy to oblige. :)
    Such a shame I won't be able to make tonight.
    Oh! :(

    Will anyone nice be coming? Other than the wonderful OGH himself, of course.......

    Mr Meeks will be there, so will Sunil, they are the epitome of niceness.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    Roger said:

    Ever

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

    Excuse the non sequitur but every time I see Hunchman on here it reminds me of Woody Allen's line "Of course I like Wagner but every time I hear him I want to invade Poland"
    Brilliant!



  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

    Stop trying to divert from the central issue at hand. The more ridicule I draw from the establishment on here over this the more I know along with Gordon bowden and others that I'm on the right lines. .......
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Currystar..re Cameron..you have it spot on..and John Mann is a total prat..who is about to enter the Labour minefield..He could start off with Browns conduct re his wife's flat..or Darlings flip flopping house sales..or Miliband rejigging of dads will..maybe cast a glance at the dubious financial antics in the Benn family when Wedgie popped off..
  • Options
    marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    edited April 2016
    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288
  • Options
    David Cameron now has a lower approval rating than Jeremy Corbyn – while the Prime Minister and Chancellor are the least trusted politicians on tax avoidance

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/04/08/camerons-ratings-now-lower-corbyns/
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Strange that you mention Andreotti, I'm going out to dinner tonight with a good friend here, a nephew of Fanfani (Andreotti's political soul mate).

    Italians are fascinated by conspiracy. Their evening TV mixes between Berlusconi's tits and arse shows that go on and on, and then the most ludicrous documentaries on say how Diana was murdered by the M15 because she was pregnant which is just presented as fact like we'd watch Panorama. Quite incredible.
    Cyclefree said:

    tyson said:

    Come to Italy...It is the common view to think that the world is a labyrinthine maze of murky intrigues interlocking the most simple of events; anyone just offering a bog standard explanation is considered off their proverbial.

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    Yes, well, that's normally correct in Italy. You'll be telling me that Andreotti was a simple politician next.......

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

    Stop trying to divert from the central issue at hand. The more ridicule I draw from the establishment on here over this the more I know along with Gordon bowden and others that I'm on the right lines. .......
    Can I be a member of the establishment as well? I mean, I am a pleb, but it looks so nice, cosy and protective up there. I know a secret handshake as well, even if it is only the one you need to get into Rustington Coalville working men's club. ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Sean_F said:

    Estobar said:

    Wasn't there that twitter hash tag a while back that was "trending" for weeks in regards to CameronMustGo or something similar. And all the tw@terati got ever so cross nobody was mentioning it.

    It's the BBC News and Sky News lead.

    The patronising arrogance towards twitter, when pb.com was disastrously wrong about the General Election, is so far beyond parody as to be amusing.

    Still, perhaps we should ask Lord Ashcroft's polling advice?
    PB had rather a good General Election. Okay, most of us underestimate the number of Conservative seats, but we were right to think that the Conservatives would come first.

    Twitter didn't have as good a General Election.
    Many of us were right in criticising the pollsters *before* the election.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    I think it will take more than that.

    Dave will also have to do something Very Right Wing to raise the moral of the troops and show he isn't an effete Guardianista.

    Dusting himself off, reshuffling the deck and then carrying on just the same as before won't quite cut it.
    On the last two occasions that the government tried to do something Very Right Wing (tax credit cuts, benefit cuts), it was sabotaged by some of the Very Right Wing MPs who David Cameron was looking to throw some red meat. So if David Cameron were to go down that route, the Very Right Wing will need to play their part too in telling the more hostile of their number to sit down and shut up.
    As you said on the last thread, party management is part of it. But both those measures were mainstream budgetary measures part of the Government's Plan A just with George Osborne's pawprints all over them.

    It was about damaging Osborne. With Gove as Chancellor it'll be a different story.

    But backbench MPs will expect to see meaningful change. I expect more non-fiscal measures.

    The full compulsory academy plan might be part of this but it's very ill thought through.

    I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools and some extra measures on the HRA bill (still undeclared) and immigration.
    "I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools"

    As someone with a young son, I want to see schools that work. Decreasing the illiteracy and innumeracy rates from their long-term p*ss poor rate (~20%) is vital. Not just for my kid, or those kids, but society as a whole.

    It'd be nice if they made a profit as well, but ensuring we have kids that leave school able to function in society is absolutely vital.
    I want to see them because I think they'll help good schools, invest, expand and do their utmost to be as good as they can be to attract new pupils, and parents.

    I don't support everyone making a profit for the good of my Hayek, but I also don't think profit is a dirty word.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,053
    MaxPB said:

    More trade figures, another record EU trade deficit. More bad news from the index of production as well. Manufacturing in reverse again.

    Feb trade

    Exports:

    EU - £11.3bn (+£0.4bn)
    Non-EU - £11.9bn (-£0.1bn)

    Imports

    EU - £19.9bn (+£1.2bn)
    Non-EU £15.3bn (-£1.1bn)

    Absolutely horrible figures.

    If Corrib has come on stream, which I think it did at end January, than that will have skewed the numbers somewhat. Historically, we took gas from Norway (non-EU import), and sent it to Ireland (EU export).

    With Corrib basically supplying all of Ireland's gas, it means that non-EU imports will be reduced, as will EU exports.

    We probably need to see it stripped out to get underlying trends for the trade balance.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    LOL - seriously? All those junior doctors no doubt too.
    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,053
    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    There are lots of places that sell off the shelf companies - Betgenius Ltd (now Genius Sports Group) was just bought off the shelf.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,560
    edited April 2016
    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Cyclefree said:

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    I know. Fun isn't it? I live very close to the infamous Finchley Road address. I shall have to check it out on my way home.

    Let's put it this way. It isn't a building that befits over 250,000 companies having at one time or another being registered out of that address.
    I expect I'll regret asking. What do you think such a building ought to look like?

    Stop trying to divert from the central issue at hand. The more ridicule I draw from the establishment on here over this the more I know along with Gordon bowden and others that I'm on the right lines. .......
    I knew I would regret it. I'm not diverting anything. You said the building didn't "befit" its use so I asked what would make it "befit" the use to which you say it's been put. If you say it's an irrelevant question why did you make an irrelevant point? If it is relevant, you'll have an answer.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Hmmmm

    @David_Ross86: Extraordinary GMS interview with Chinese consortium rep. Said specific projects identified and they have been in talks with SNP for a year.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    tyson said:

    Strange that you mention Andreotti, I'm going out to dinner tonight with a good friend here, a nephew of Fanfani (Andreotti's political soul mate).

    Italians are fascinated by conspiracy. Their evening TV mixes between Berlusconi's tits and arse shows that go on and on, and then the most ludicrous documentaries on say how Diana was murdered by the M15 because she was pregnant which is just presented as fact like we'd watch Panorama. Quite incredible.

    Cyclefree said:

    tyson said:

    Come to Italy...It is the common view to think that the world is a labyrinthine maze of murky intrigues interlocking the most simple of events; anyone just offering a bog standard explanation is considered off their proverbial.

    hunchman said:

    Blairmore holdings. ......panmure gordon. ....pinsent Mason. .....Carroll trust. Follow the trail......of money. And see the YouTube clip I posted on here late last night.

    Ooooh, it's ages since I've been tangentially linked to a good conspiracy theory.
    Yes, well, that's normally correct in Italy. You'll be telling me that Andreotti was a simple politician next.......

    The Francesco Rosi film "Illustrious Corpses" is well worth watching, if you haven't seen it. Most of his films are, in fact.

    From my personal and professional experience of Italy (and I have plenty of both), the explanation for most things in Italy is rarely simple. Ockham's Razor simply has no purchase there.
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Estobar said:

    Wow this #resignCameron is really gaining traction. He's an idiot for obfuscating and lying given how vitriolic he was towards people like Jimmy Carr.

    I've no idea what this thread's about. The leadership challenge won't come before the last week of June. And come it will.

    lol

    It's trending on twitter

    This is not "gaining traction". But carry on feeling good about yourself with your clicktivism!

    (And I am going off cameron rapidly too, this is not the same as wanting him to resign, dearie me)
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    I think it will take more than that.

    Dave will also have to do something Very Right Wing to raise the moral of the troops and show he isn't an effete Guardianista.

    Dusting himself off, reshuffling the deck and then carrying on just the same as before won't quite cut it.
    , the Very Right Wing will need to play their part too in telling the more hostile of their number to sit down and shut up.
    As you said on the last thread, party management is part of it. But both those measures were mainstream budgetary measures part of the Government's Plan A just with George Osborne's pawprints all over them.

    It was about damaging Osborne. With Gove as Chancellor it'll be a different story.

    But backbench MPs will expect to see meaningful change. I expect more non-fiscal measures.

    The full compulsory academy plan might be part of this but it's very ill thought through.

    I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools and some extra measures on the HRA bill (still undeclared) and immigration.
    "I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools"

    As someone with a young son, I want to see schools that work. Decreasing the illiteracy and innumeracy rates from their long-term p*ss poor rate (~20%) is vital. Not just for my kid, or those kids, but society as a whole.

    It'd be nice if they made a profit as well, but ensuring we have kids that leave school able to function in society is absolutely vital.
    I want to see them because I think they'll help good schools, invest, expand and do their utmost to be as good as they can be to attract new pupils, and parents.

    I don't support everyone making a profit for the good of my Hayek, but I also don't think profit is a dirty word.
    Trouble is won't you end up with huge mega schools and potentially reduced competition. And presumably the successful schools will need to expand (costing money) whilst the unsuccessful ones will go empty.
  • Options
    marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 4m4 minutes ago

    On David Cameron dealing with the issues of tax avoidance and tax havens:
    Would trust: 23%
    Would not trust: 68%
    (via YouGov / 06 - 07 Apr)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 4m4 minutes ago

    On Jeremy Corbyn dealing with the issues of tax avoidance and tax havens:
    Would trust: 39%
    Would not trust: 47%
    (via YouGov / 06 - 07 Apr)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,909

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    From Dan, well indeed.
    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    I think it will take more than that.

    Dave will also have to do something Very Right Wing to raise the moral of the troops and show he isn't an effete Guardianista.

    Dusting himself off, reshuffling the deck and then carrying on just the same as before won't quite cut it.
    , the Very Right Wing will need to play their part too in telling the more hostile of their number to sit down and shut up.
    As you said on the last thread, party management is part of it. But both those measures were mainstream budgetary measures part of the Government's Plan A just with George Osborne's pawprints all over them.

    It was about damaging Osborne. With Gove as Chancellor it'll be a different story.

    But backbench MPs will expect to see meaningful change. I expect more non-fiscal measures.

    The full compulsory academy plan might be part of this but it's very ill thought through.

    I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools and some extra measures on the HRA bill (still undeclared) and immigration.
    "I'd prefer to see things like profit-making schools"

    As someone with a young son, I want to see schools that work. Decreasing the illiteracy and innumeracy rates from their long-term p*ss poor rate (~20%) is vital. Not just for my kid, or those kids, but society as a whole.

    It'd be nice if they made a profit as well, but ensuring we have kids that leave school able to function in society is absolutely vital.
    I want to see them because I think they'll help good schools, invest, expand and do their utmost to be as good as they can be to attract new pupils, and parents.

    I don't support everyone making a profit for the good of my Hayek, but I also don't think profit is a dirty word.
    Trouble is won't you end up with huge mega schools and potentially reduced competition. And presumably the successful schools will need to expand (costing money) whilst the unsuccessful ones will go empty.
    I have no problem with a free market in education.

    My problem is right now only the wealthy and privileged can access it.

    I want all parents to have the same choices.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Remain are having an excellent week as ever.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
    Sorry if I am a bit pedantic but I don't recall the government "legislating" for mailshots, advertising or leaflets. The recent row about the governments leaflet seems to discount the fact that by precedent in the previous Europe referendum the government issued a leaflet. The formal campaigns within which rules are applied has not started yet and the government will keep to those rules.

  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    Just think of all those poor protesters who are down on their luck because they keep getting turned down for jobs by posh w****** who'd prefer to employ their mates. Or their mates children. And grandchildren. And nephews. And nieces.

    I wonder if they might find common cause with some Tory backbenchers. It's always worth remembering that one of the biggest ructions of Cameron's leadership was over grammar schools.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    People are not going to vote Leave because they're pissed off that the government spent some money on a leaflet ahead of the formal campaign. And it is, frankly, delusional to think that endlessly harping on about this is a winning argument.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Trouble is won't you end up with huge mega schools and potentially reduced competition. And presumably the successful schools will need to expand (costing money) whilst the unsuccessful ones will go empty.

    Yes! You've almost got it. Unsuccessful ones going empty is the entire point. A hell of a lot better than the current system, where the bad schools are full because parents don't have any choice, and the local education authorities just want to protect the status quo.

    Your only mistake is that you don't have to end up with mega schools; successful chains of academies will open new ones, or take over the existing poor ones and transform them. The the existing poor ones will have a strong incentive to improve.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    More trade figures, another record EU trade deficit. More bad news from the index of production as well. Manufacturing in reverse again.

    Feb trade

    Exports:

    EU - £11.3bn (+£0.4bn)
    Non-EU - £11.9bn (-£0.1bn)

    Imports

    EU - £19.9bn (+£1.2bn)
    Non-EU £15.3bn (-£1.1bn)

    Absolutely horrible figures.

    If Corrib has come on stream, which I think it did at end January, than that will have skewed the numbers somewhat. Historically, we took gas from Norway (non-EU import), and sent it to Ireland (EU export).

    With Corrib basically supplying all of Ireland's gas, it means that non-EU imports will be reduced, as will EU exports.

    We probably need to see it stripped out to get underlying trends for the trade balance.
    Surely that means the numbers are "unskewed" now!
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited April 2016

    Remain are having an excellent week as ever.

    Must be time for another PB article stating that Cameron's popularity with voters will ensure REMAIN win?
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    UKIP's defence of council seats they already hold has not been great, in fact I would say that they have been very poor.

    So in contrast to Rallings and Thatcher, I expect UKIP to lose seats.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    taffys said:

    Things I Never Expected To See In The Guardian

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/07/9-million-pro-eu-leaflet-in-campaign?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The £9m pro-EU leaflet says just one thing: we’re panicking
    Daniel Hannan
    Is it me Ms Plato, or is the Guardian tippy-toeing to the right recently?

    Maybe they've realised that lefties don't like to pay for subscriptions and they block adverts!
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    I don't think it's the same one. I don't want to say anything else because it is explosive; that said if you search on the internet it has been reported outside the UK.

    I tell you something though- the problem with the internet is that anyone can say anything whether true or false- and it gets picked up somewhere. It is impossible to police.

    tyson said:

    Last night I alluded to a beast of a super injunction- and it wasn't this threesome celebrity thing. My friend says it is known amongst a few journos. That's what I thought might come out at the Shooting Star tonight.

    I wrote a couple of days ago about a 'deviant' politician who the media may be protecting for political reasons because they consider him useful. IMO that's not healthy.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Cyclefree said:

    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    You are right, of course. I'm surprised to see Dan Hannan making that mistake, he's usually very sharp.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Wasn't she Wallace's chief cheerleader ?
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BBC – 9 Rochdale sex abusers jailed for offences against girls

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35982241

    And still it continues, at this rate there’ll be no blokes left in the town.
  • Options
    Favourite comment from the Guido site to their Friday picture
    Cue Bono • 36 minutes ago
    "Wouldn't you prefer to use the back door?"
    http://order-order.com/2016/04/08/friday-caption-contest-redacted-edition/#disqus_thread
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,242
    marke09 said:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 4m4 minutes ago

    On David Cameron dealing with the issues of tax avoidance and tax havens:
    Would trust: 23%
    Would not trust: 68%
    (via YouGov / 06 - 07 Apr)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 4m4 minutes ago

    On Jeremy Corbyn dealing with the issues of tax avoidance and tax havens:
    Would trust: 39%
    Would not trust: 47%
    (via YouGov / 06 - 07 Apr)

    & that's before last night's little difficulty hit the fan.
  • Options
    FernandoFernando Posts: 145
    Before the Scottish referendum didn't the government send out a booklet in June and a leaflet in August, ahead of the referendum in the middle of September.
    I can't remember any outrage at funds being used which would otherwise have gone to the NHS.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    Trouble is won't you end up with huge mega schools and potentially reduced competition. And presumably the successful schools will need to expand (costing money) whilst the unsuccessful ones will go empty.

    Yes! You've almost got it. Unsuccessful ones going empty is the entire point. A hell of a lot better than the current system, where the bad schools are full because parents don't have any choice, and the local education authorities just want to protect the status quo.

    Your only mistake is that you don't have to end up with mega schools; successful chains of academies will open new ones, or take over the existing poor ones and transform them. The the existing poor ones will have a strong incentive to improve.
    Competition, what can't it do!
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    First they emasculate the Chancellor then the PM. A spaceship landing from Mars might think the Tories had gone mad
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Remain are having an excellent week as ever.

    Must be time for another PB article stating that Cameron's popularity with voters will ensure REMAIN win?
    Remain have got Cammo, Corbo,t he LD bloke whatshisname and the nippy sweetie who lost the Sindy ref.

    A winning team !
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited April 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.” [snip]
    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    People are not going to vote Leave because they're pissed off that the government spent some money on a leaflet ahead of the formal campaign. And it is, frankly, delusional to think that endlessly harping on about this is a winning argument.


    Indeed so Ms Cyclefree, - is it too late for you to lead one of the Leave campaigns?
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    presumably that 30% is Labour and Lib Dem voters
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    When you consider that Brexit support hovers at around 40% with YouGov it means that there are quite a few undecideds and Remain supporters who oppose this as well.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Indigo said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Wasn't she Wallace's chief cheerleader ?
    Milifandom, yes.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    There is a similar, depressing case going on at Oxford- I think against 7 men.

    BBC – 9 Rochdale sex abusers jailed for offences against girls

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35982241

    And still it continues, at this rate there’ll be no blokes left in the town.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Roger said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    First they emasculate the Chancellor then the PM. A spaceship landing from Mars might think the Tories had gone mad
    That's a march against tax avoidance, it will be a bunch of lefties and useful idiots from unions.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Piffle, it's just politics says Remain on here. And whining.

    Perhaps a bit of humble pie is missing from their diet. Still, they always plough on telling us we're wrong.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,053
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    More trade figures, another record EU trade deficit. More bad news from the index of production as well. Manufacturing in reverse again.

    Feb trade

    Exports:

    EU - £11.3bn (+£0.4bn)
    Non-EU - £11.9bn (-£0.1bn)

    Imports

    EU - £19.9bn (+£1.2bn)
    Non-EU £15.3bn (-£1.1bn)

    Absolutely horrible figures.

    If Corrib has come on stream, which I think it did at end January, than that will have skewed the numbers somewhat. Historically, we took gas from Norway (non-EU import), and sent it to Ireland (EU export).

    With Corrib basically supplying all of Ireland's gas, it means that non-EU imports will be reduced, as will EU exports.

    We probably need to see it stripped out to get underlying trends for the trade balance.
    Surely that means the numbers are "unskewed" now!
    That's a really good point :-)

    I guess I was pointing out that the *changes* from the previous month are skewed.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2016
    MaxPB said:

    When you consider that Brexit support hovers at around 40% with YouGov it means that there are quite a few undecideds and Remain supporters who oppose this as well.

    I wouldn't over-analyse. I'd bet you'd get very similar results if you asked a similar question regarding a government leaflet about any random issue.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    Cameron won.
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited April 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    People are not going to vote Leave because they're pissed off that the government spent some money on a leaflet ahead of the formal campaign. And it is, frankly, delusional to think that endlessly harping on about this is a winning argument.
    That is an argument about using up precious media time. In this case it is probably worthwhile using up media time to reduce the upside for REMAIN that they would have derived from it. From a PR viewpoint if the tag that this leaflet is deceiving and wastes Govt money develops a strong association with it, then the money is not only wasted but may turn into a negative for REMAIN. Cameron's ratings for trust have already been falling.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,909
    Cyclefree said:

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    People are not going to vote Leave because they're pissed off that the government spent some money on a leaflet ahead of the formal campaign. And it is, frankly, delusional to think that endlessly harping on about this is a winning argument.


    I think the mileage is limited, of course, but I think it is legitimate to criticise the misuse of public funds for partisan purposes, in order to avoid spending caps.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    TSE

    You lucky man.
    I think I'd rather be watching the Muse to be honest. Those west country lads have done good and are probably now considered the greatest, global live act...

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,560
    edited April 2016

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Cyclefree said:

    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    You are right, of course. I'm surprised to see Dan Hannan making that mistake, he's usually very sharp.
    There are very few people - on either side of the debate - making any sort of argument at all. If it continues at this rate, we may as well toss a coin.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Whereas by resigning he helped to inflict Grayling on the world (though, to be honest, the responsibility for that lies with Dave).
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Yes, David Davis would have been one of the truly great Home Secretaries and wouldn't have been scared into illiberal moves by the spooks in the same way as May.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    You are right, of course. I'm surprised to see Dan Hannan making that mistake, he's usually very sharp.
    There are very few people - on either side of the debate - making any sort of argument at all. If it continues at this rate, we may as well toss a coin.
    If we are calling it as a coin flip on the eve of the vote then the campaign has worked out quite well for Leave, I think. (This is not the same as saying that Leave has run a good campaign, of course.)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,053
    MikeK said:

    UKIP's defence of council seats they already hold has not been great, in fact I would say that they have been very poor.

    So in contrast to Rallings and Thatcher, I expect UKIP to lose seats.

    They have virtually none to defend: 2012 was before the UKIP surge.

    The forecast of 40 gains is about right IMHO.

    R&T are likely wrong re the LibDems, mind. 2012 was a good year for them: 12% in the national opinion polls, and 16% NEV in the locals. They've lost a third of their support since then, so I can't see anything other than -20 to -60 for the Libs.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,046
    perdix said:

    From Dan, well indeed.

    When the referendum legislation went through parliament, the foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, told MPs: “It will be for the yes and the no campaigns to lead the debate in the weeks preceding the poll. I can assure the house that the government has no intention of undermining those campaigns.”

    David Lidington, the likeable Europe minister, was even more emphatic: “Let me repeat that we have no intention of legislating to allow the government to do things such as mailshots, paid advertising or leafleting.”

    Why, then, have ministers gone back on their words? Why have they chosen to ignore both Britain’s Electoral Commission, which has declared its unhappiness, and the basic rules on the conduct of referendums required by the Council of Europe, which states: “The use of public funds for campaigning purposes must be prohibited in order to guarantee equality of opportunity and the freedom of voters to form an opinion”? Why have they annoyed neutrals and quite a few Remain campaigners by so flagrant a disregard for fair play?
    Sorry if I am a bit pedantic but I don't recall the government "legislating" for mailshots, advertising or leaflets. The recent row about the governments leaflet seems to discount the fact that by precedent in the previous Europe referendum the government issued a leaflet. The formal campaigns within which rules are applied has not started yet and the government will keep to those rules.



    But it feels like the campaign has started. I’m still solid for Remain, but my wife is coming to the view that if Cameron is going to behave like this over the leaflet, she might switch to Leave.
    And I can’t say I blame her.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Fernando said:

    Before the Scottish referendum didn't the government send out a booklet in June and a leaflet in August, ahead of the referendum in the middle of September.
    I can't remember any outrage at funds being used which would otherwise have gone to the NHS.

    Politically engaged people on site about politics have axes to grind shocker.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Didn't Davis discuss this with Cameron first?

    I'm not someone who detests the Right of the Conservative Party. As you say, David Davis would have been a great Home Secretary, IDS was and is passionate about welfare reform for the right reasons and I love Jacob Rees-Mogg.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    He would have done something else though that would have finished his mainstream political career. In his DNA, like Enoch Powell. Narcissistic, unhinged mavericks cannot stop themselves.

    As much as I don't like May, she has been a blessing for Cameron- quietly effective, and trouble free. David Davis would have been the opposite.

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rustinpeace00: #ResignCameron update:

    *Checks Downing Street*

    Yep. He's still there guys.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,560
    edited April 2016

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Didn't Davis discuss this with Cameron first?

    I'm not someone who detests the Right of the Conservative Party. As you say, David Davis would have been a great Home Secretary, IDS was and is passionate about welfare reform for the right reasons and I love Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    It was less of a discussion more Davis telling Cameron I'm doing this, Cameron saying I think you're making a mistake, think about it, speak to the likes of Iain Dale, who urged him not to quit, but he went and quit within the hour.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    I can't wait to see Remainders response to these polls. More handwaving I suspect.

    It all feels reminiscent of the Lib Dems Winning Here PB mantra prior to GE2015 that misled many of us.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    @AlastairMeeks Thanks for the link to the government EU Ref leaflet, which you posted for me on an earlier thread.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    edited April 2016
    tyson said:

    I don't think it's the same one. I don't want to say anything else because it is explosive; that said if you search on the internet it has been reported outside the UK.

    I tell you something though- the problem with the internet is that anyone can say anything whether true or false- and it gets picked up somewhere. It is impossible to police.



    tyson said:

    Last night I alluded to a beast of a super injunction- and it wasn't this threesome celebrity thing. My friend says it is known amongst a few journos. That's what I thought might come out at the Shooting Star tonight.

    I wrote a couple of days ago about a 'deviant' politician who the media may be protecting for political reasons because they consider him useful. IMO that's not healthy.
    I used to hear a lot of stories about well known people doing things. That's what happens when you work with models and stylists. Gossip is a sort of currency.

    The thing is that unless you have a newspaper to tell you what is a big one and what isn't you don't really think about them other than as attractive people doing what attractive people do.

    More than once I've know about something that turned into a big story without it dawning on me that it was. Even as recently as the hacking inquiry I was told by someone who had been approached about a past relationship.

    It was far more eye opening than most of the ones that have appeared but because she's not a tramp it's so far stayed under wraps. It struck me that the only ones that do get known are when someone wants them to be
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    As a fellow Telegraph subscriber, can you log in since new website launched? Been trying for three days and it hangs on Beacon server connection
    AnneJGP said:

    @AlastairMeeks Thanks for the link to the government EU Ref leaflet, which you posted for me on an earlier thread.

  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Didn't Davis discuss this with Cameron first?

    I'm not someone who detests the Right of the Conservative Party. As you say, David Davis would have been a great Home Secretary, IDS was and is passionate about welfare reform for the right reasons and I love Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    I have read that he didn't tell Cameron in advance that he was planning to resign.

    I like Davis's interventions in defence of civil liberties but I find it hard to imagine him holding down a job in government. Well, he would cut a different figure if that were the case.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    I can't wait to see Remainders response to these polls. More handwaving I suspect.

    It all feels reminiscent of the Lib Dems Winning Here PB mantra prior to GE2015 that misled many of us.

    Are there new polls?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,909
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    UKIP's defence of council seats they already hold has not been great, in fact I would say that they have been very poor.

    So in contrast to Rallings and Thatcher, I expect UKIP to lose seats.

    They have virtually none to defend: 2012 was before the UKIP surge.

    The forecast of 40 gains is about right IMHO.

    R&T are likely wrong re the LibDems, mind. 2012 was a good year for them: 12% in the national opinion polls, and 16% NEV in the locals. They've lost a third of their support since then, so I can't see anything other than -20 to -60 for the Libs.
    Even if UKIP lose most of the seats they're defending, they'll likely emerge with a net gain. I also think 40 is about right.
  • Options

    I can't wait to see Remainders response to these polls. More handwaving I suspect.

    It all feels reminiscent of the Lib Dems Winning Here mantra PB prior to GE2015 that misled many of us.

    It wasn't misleading.

    The Crosby/Textor private polling for the Tories in March/April 2015 had the Lib Dems winning most of their Con facing seats.

    It wasn't until Jan 2014 that the Tories start moving resources into the Lib Dem held seats, prior to that they thought it was a waste of resources.

    I mean George Osborne was texting Nick Clegg on election day to persuade him to agree to a second coalition.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    tyson said:

    He would have done something else though that would have finished his mainstream political career. In his DNA, like Enoch Powell. Narcissistic, unhinged mavericks cannot stop themselves.

    As much as I don't like May, she has been a blessing for Cameron- quietly effective, and trouble free. David Davis would have been the opposite.

    Sean_F said:

    marke09 said:

    Apparently there is going to be a David Cameron resign march in London tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/AbiWilks/status/718418577745932288

    Such a shame I'm seeing Muse tomorrow night in Manchester, or I would be there (trolling them in person)

    They'd be better off signing an online petition
    How many Conservative backbenchers will be taking part?
    David Davis for sure.
    Interestingly David Davis was the europhile and Cameron the eurosceptic in the leadership election.

    There is something deeply personal between those two that went badly wrong around 2008, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it was.
    I do.

    When David Davis quit and won the by election, he was expecting Cameron to offer him his old job back PDQ.

    Whereas Dave and pretty much the entire Tory Party thought Davis showed his unsuitability to hold high office by holding that vanity by-election.

    The irony of it is, had he not resigned, he would have become Home Secretary in 2010, and become a great libertarian Home Secretary.
    Yes, he would definitely have gone out with a bang rather than a whimper. We don't have enough big beasts like that in politics any more. If Osborne is the current Tory big beast (other than Dave) then we've got problems.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    Cyclefree said:

    From Dan, well indeed.

    That's all very well. But while he is making this eloquent argument he is not making an eloquent argument to the voters to persuade them to his point of view. And this argument won't win the case.

    People are not going to vote Leave because they're pissed off that the government spent some money on a leaflet ahead of the formal campaign. And it is, frankly, delusional to think that endlessly harping on about this is a winning argument.
    That is an argument about using up precious media time. In this case it is probably worthwhile using up media time to reduce the upside for REMAIN that they would have derived from it. From a PR viewpoint if the tag that this leaflet is deceiving and wastes Govt money develops a strong association with it, then the money is not only wasted but may turn into a negative for REMAIN. Cameron's ratings for trust have already been falling.

    Maybe. Most of these leaflets end up in the bin. It's just as likely that more people might read it than not.

    When I was a barrister in court one of the more experienced barristers in chambers told me that, from time to time, your witness would give you - despite all your expectations and preparation - the most unhelpful answer possible. In that case - and if it was a jury trial - he said that you should ask him to repeat it slowly, write something down and then move on to the next question without revealing in any way your surprise. That way the jury would simply assume that this was all OK and nothing to worry about. The last thing you should do, he said, was to draw attention to the fact that the witness had just done the equivalent of shooting you in the face.

    All Leave have done this week is give the impression that they're more interested in themselves, more interested in some private Tory party vendetta and embarrassed that they did not have the wit to do what the government has done and commissioned their own leaflet.

    A far better response would have been to say that it was a disgrace that such a leaflet should cost £9 million, this was an example of government waste similar to [insert example of egregious spending by EU body] and the latter was one of the many reasons why Britain would be better off out along with [insert other reasons / path to sunny uplands etc here].

    And then move on.




This discussion has been closed.