Re the doctor's dispute. I don't want to sound like a SeanT luvvie but I was speaking to Carol Vorderman during an ad for BR and we got onto statistics. She volunteered that she's fifth highest on the advertisers trust index and gets paid accordingly (Esther Rantzen is first).
I've no idea what Jeremy Hunt would score but if it made single figures I'd be amazed.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
But Belgium will be ok because they have a done a deal with the local Islamists....
The guy in the Telegraph today saying ISIS were basically done for might want to do a rewrite of his article.
If you extrapolate those figures it is horrifying. We know 3 or 4 slightly crap terrorists killed 30 odd Belgians, and injured hundreds. So the death toll is roughly times ten (think this applies to Paris and London as well)
400 ISIS jihadists could therefore kill 4000 Europeans, and injure, say, 20,000 in a matter of weeks or months (maybe they could kill many more if they have special weapons or better plans).
If such a wave of assaults happened, with that kind of death toll, by the end we'd see widespread civil strife, possible lynch law, random internment, and likely a far right government in power in 1 or 2 major European nations.
One thing we can be thankful for, I believe the American's sent in special ops and "neutralised" the guy who they think does the chemical weapons for ISIS.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Yes but why should we have an open border for 400 more ISIS fighters to cross into this country.
We don't at the moment.
Unless they are some of the couple of hundered of British citizens gone there.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Stay in the EU and they can come here and there is nothing we can do about it. Leave and they cant. Personally Im thinking its best we control our borders so they cant. You may feel we should let them in - maybe follow the Labour Party's example and make them some tea. I disagree.
Vote Remain and let terrorists kill your kids': well its a view I suppose, though not one likely to meet with success.
All of the main parties are broadly trying to do the right thing, and they're attempting to make whatever that 'right thing' is work for everyone.
The one thing that I'm sure I know about Jeremy Corbyn is that he has good intentions. I'm pretty happy to extend that to almost all politicians. (There are a couple, I have to admit that I sort of suspect don't have good intentions. However I generally think that's me being wrong.)
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Yes but why should we have an open border for 400 more ISIS fighters to cross into this country.
We don't at the moment.
Unless they are some of the couple of hundered of British citizens gone there.
Which is why I am glad for Dave and not Ed. We're going around in circles.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Stay in the EU and they can come here and there is nothing we can do about it. Leave and they cant. Personally Im thinking its best we control our borders so they cant. You may feel we should let them in - maybe follow the Labour Party's example and make them some tea. I disagree.
Vote Remain and let terrorists kill your kids': well its a view I suppose, though not one likely to meet with success.
How would Leave prevent them coming (assuming they get EU citizenship)? Visas for all non-British citizens? If so then how many visa clerks would be needed at each embassy in Europe? How much time would they have for investigating each applicant?
Happy to hear your cost benefit analysis. Either that or more bollocks!
"They had ordered a minivan from the taxi company to take them to the airport, Belgian newspaper DH reported. But when a saloon arrived in error they found they could not fit the four heavy holdalls they wanted to take into the vehicle and were forced to leave one behind."
Thank god for dodgy mini cab firms...Good job they didn't order an Uber!
This plus the guy with the biggest bomb either bricked it or it malfunctioned....it could have been A LOT LOT worse.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
But Belgium will be ok because they have a done a deal with the local Islamists....
The guy in the Telegraph today saying ISIS were basically done for might want to do a rewrite of his article.
If you extrapolate those figures it is horrifying. We know 3 or 4 slightly crap terrorists killed 30 odd Belgians, and injured hundreds. So the death toll is roughly times ten (think this applies to Paris and London as well)
400 ISIS jihadists could therefore kill 4000 Europeans, and injure, say, 20,000 in a matter of weeks or months (maybe they could kill many more if they have special weapons or better plans).
If such a wave of assaults happened, with that kind of death toll, by the end we'd see widespread civil strife, possible lynch law, random internment, and likely a far right government in power in 1 or 2 major European nations.
One thing we can be thankful for, I believe the American's sent in special ops and "neutralised" the guy who they think does the chemical weapons for ISIS.
The idea that anyone should ever believe that the best thing they can do with their life is to randomly kill other people is hardly likely to win any prizes for thinking. But Jihadists are dumb anyway. I'd happily bet that it's impossible, for example, that 1,000 Jihadists could form an orderly queue at Paddington Green police station and one by one say the the officer in charge 'good morning' - impossible.. they're not that smart...
Re the doctor's dispute. I don't want to sound like a SeanT luvvie but I was speaking to Carol Vorderman during an ad for BR and we got onto statistics. She volunteered that she's fifth highest on the advertisers trust index and gets paid accordingly (Esther Rantzen is first).
I've no idea what Jeremy Hunt would score but if it made single figures I'd be amazed.
I'm quite happy to be insulted, even obliquely, I just don't quite understand how this insult works or what the F it means.
Someone downthread said you sounded like a luvvie that's all. Just a segue
Leave need to change these numbers if they want to win. People won't vote to make the economy worse
twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/712688388785192960
High risk: 30%
Slight to No risk: 65%
Leave seem OK for this.
High/Slight Risk 69% Hardly/No Risk 26%
Leave seems holed below the waterline .
I'm perfectly OK with a slight risk. A slight risk is completely acceptable for anything more than a slight return.
Do you fly? Try telling the passengers there's a VERY slight risk the pilot might have a heart attack. Does anyone want to leave the plane? I think you might find yourself the only passenger
Terrible example, I'm a frequent flier yes and have always recognised that there is a very slight risk on flying ... it's just that the risk from flying is better than all the alternatives.
Anyone who avoids every risk whatsoever in anything they do is simply going to become a crazed phobic hermit like Howard Hughes.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
1. Could he be charged with an offence in Belgium, based on what the Turkish authorities said? This would be the ideal i.e. when someone disappears off to the Syrian border and is caught and deported, they are charged, convicted and locked up. But who knows whether the Belgians have such an offence or whether the evidence was strong enough.
2. If 1 doesn't work, then the only option is to put him under surveillance - but that is very resource expensive. Given the numbers of probable targets, I doubt that the Belgian authorities have the resources to do this - even if they had the will.
3. If 1 is not available and 2 is not done then you have what appears to have happened here - a militant is left to get on with it apparently unhindered.
The more you have communities which seem to be outside the effective control of the state, as Moelenbeek (and parts of the Paris banlieues) the easier it will be for those who wish the state harm to flourish unhindered. It is essential that the state has full control of all parts of its territory and of all those in its territory. This is not something new needed in response to Islamist or any other sort of terrorism. This is basic stuff which any medieval king would have understood.
There has been an abrogation of sovereignty by countries whereby they have, to all intents and purposes, abandoned parts of their territory to potentially hostile forces. That is in part because there has been - and continues to be - a culture of denial about the fact that these are hostile forces or breeding grounds for them. Too many in the governing classes have tried to make the facts match what they would like to be true. They - or rather the innocent civilians - are now being mugged by reality, a reality which has been all too evident for those with eyes to see ever since we saw book burning and assassination attempts at the behest of a foreign religious/political leader decades ago.
It is grimly ironic that for all the talk of loss of sovereignty in relation to the EU it is this loss of sovereignty which is far more damaging and which needs to be reversed. The longer it is left, the tougher it will have to be. If it is not done at all, the future will be grim.
This is, by far, the best analysis I have read on the subject. You are a f-ing legend. Please stand for office.
Seconded. Cyclefree makes some awesome posts and we get it all for free.
Of course, the BMA has four weeks to avert this walkout if they wanted...
For the sake of the referendum Cameron should make one last u-turn and sack Hunt; He's made a complete arse of himself and he's going to make the government very unpopular just at the wrong time
Hunt is following through on a manifesto promise that was very high profile during the general election, is that something to be sacked over?
YES
Not every party holds their own manifesto in such contempt as the Lib Dems held their own while in government.
Only the Conservatives would put things in their manifesto and then implement them in such a way that threatens the lives of many patients .
Except the reforms are being done to improve the lives and survival of patients. This is a strike over Saturday pay rates not patient safety.
That is undoubtedly the government's intention which makes you wonder how Jeremy Hunt has ballsed it up. We can safely assume the doctors are also interested in helping patients. There does seem to be a legitimate doubt over the root cause of the weekend excess (and therefore how to address it) but the aim is the same so how did Hunt manage to alienate so many doctors and turn this into an industrial dispute?
By asking them to join the 21st century and work on a Saturday less than one in four weekends without bonus pay.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Stay in the EU and they can come here and there is nothing we can do about it. Leave and they cant. Personally Im thinking its best we control our borders so they cant. You may feel we should let them in - maybe follow the Labour Party's example and make them some tea. I disagree.
Vote Remain and let terrorists kill your kids': well its a view I suppose, though not one likely to meet with success.
How would Leave prevent them coming (assuming they get EU citizenship)? Visas for all non-British citizens? If so then how many visa clerks would be needed at each embassy in Europe? How much time would they have for investigating each applicant?
Happy to hear your cost benefit analysis. Either that or more bollocks!
We can decide who we let into our country. Inside the EU we cant. Simple really. Let me repeat: WE DECIDE. That's all. Now if our politicians, in their wisdom, decided to let folk in who then went on to blow up or children we could then vote them out. In the EU we have no choice. Out of the EU we can decide.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Unfortunately there is no way to know after Merkel's crazy policy. Europe has let millions of people in without doing even the most basic of checks. It could be a real figure, 400 out of 1.3-1.5m is not a large figure.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
Would you expect there to be more than in Iraq or Lybia? Both have suffered very badly with suicide bombers but noth
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Stay in the EU and they can come here and there is nothing we can do about it. Leave and they cant. Personally Im thinking its best we control our borders so they cant. You may feel we should let them in - maybe follow the Labour Party's example and make them some tea. I disagree.
Vote Remain and let terrorists kill your kids': well its a view I suppose, though not one likely to meet with success.
How would Leave prevent them coming (assuming they get EU citizenship)? Visas for all non-British citizens? If so then how many visa clerks would be needed at each embassy in Europe? How much time would they have for investigating each applicant?
Happy to hear your cost benefit analysis. Either that or more bollocks!
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Not just guns...as mentioned in Guardian article, if you try and purchase the chemicals required to make a lot of these home made bombs in the UK, you quite likely to get flagged up. Sure there are way around it, but it adds another barrier and another thing to go wrong for the terrorists.
Apparently, you could buy industrial quantities of the stuff you need from normal supermarkets in parts of Europe totally unchecked.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Unfortunately there is no way to know after Merkel's crazy policy. Europe has let millions of people in without doing even the most basic of checks. It could be a real figure, 400 out of 1.3-1.5m is not a large figure.
We will be much better focussing on the potential problems of more than 400 in London, Luton and Bradford and I am sure our intelligence services are. They have done a brilliant job over the last 8 years.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Not just guns...as mentioned in Guardian article, if you try and purchase the chemicals required to make a lot of these home made bombs in the UK, you quite likely to get flagged up. Sure there are way around it, but it adds another barrier and another thing to go wrong for the terrorists.
Apparently, you could buy industrial quantities of the stuff you need from normal supermarkets in parts of Europe totally unchecked.
We learned a lot from those Irish friends of the Shadow Chancellor. It has come in handy.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Not just guns...as mentioned in Guardian article, if you try and purchase the chemicals required to make a lot of these home made bombs in the UK, you quite likely to get flagged up. Sure there are way around it, but it adds another barrier and another thing to go wrong for the terrorists.
Apparently, you could buy industrial quantities of the stuff you need from normal supermarkets in parts of Europe totally unchecked.
We learned a lot from those Irish friends of the Shadow Chancellor. It has come in handy.
They even sold one of the guys behind the French attacks detonators and he presented his own genuine ID (and was known to security services)...
When did the suicide bombers plan to detonate these other 10 bombs?
My guess would be that they had been planning something even bigger and had their hand forced by the arrest of the guy on Friday.
I think that is why this effort was a bit "Four Lions". The waves of arrests over the last few weeks is probably why the terrorists acted as they did. They were faced with a "use it or lose it" situation.
Worth bearing in mind when doing door knocking in Tower Hamlets.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Unfortunately there is no way to know after Merkel's crazy policy. Europe has let millions of people in without doing even the most basic of checks. It could be a real figure, 400 out of 1.3-1.5m is not a large figure.
We will be much better focussing on the potential problems of more than 400 in London, Luton and Bradford and I am sure our intelligence services are. They have done a brilliant job over the last 8 years.
Yes, of course. That's only because Dave opted us out of the EU refugee programme and did it properly. Again, it feels like we're going around in circles. Dave did the nation a real service by refusing to open up our border to an unlimited number of migrants without being able to make even the most basic of checks.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
When did the suicide bombers plan to detonate these other 10 bombs?
Well they have threatened London again. I suspect it will be easier targets elsewhere because security in general is better in Uk?
It does seem most of it is home grown with support from one or two facilitators from outside Europe at the moment. How much credibility can be placed on 400 I don't know but the thing about terror is that there doesn't have to be any. Just saying it ties the country up in knots and that's what they work on. Directly affecting the way the country operates and works on a daily basis by simple threats.
With the migrant crisis ongoing it's going to be difficult to prevent any cells moving freely around Europe. One exception of course is here. How many times has the channel saved us.
I fear it cannot for much longer if this continues. I admit I have no idea what the answer is though with people that would quite happily die for their cause. I don't think there is one.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe? If I was Beardo-al-Baghdadi watching Merkel invite everyone from Syria to come stay in lovely Europe I'd have clapped with glee and said Right, send 1000 of our best men, this minute.
...And make sure one of you get to Switzerland...I need a new Rolex sending back...The Raqqa branch is out of stock.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe? If I was Beardo-al-Baghdadi watching Merkel invite everyone from Syria to come stay in lovely Europe I'd have clapped with glee and said Right, send 1000 of our best men, this minute.
It's the obvious move. And wem ade it so easy. Europe accepted ONE MILLION, or more, last year. Inveigling 500 into that chaos would be a doddle. We already know some of the Paris bombers were bogus migrants from the beaches of Lesbos.
Why are you so delusional? Why do you think ISIS would not do this? Slaughtering Europeans in London or Paris is much better propaganda for them than grinding out victories against Assad.
There is no need. They have lots of willing helpers here already. People who speak the local language, know the customs, know how not to stand out like a sore thumb.
As I say there is zero evidence of such infiltration to date. I may be proved wrong and some might appear. But this looks like an invitation to take our eyes off the real ticking object to me.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Not just guns...as mentioned in Guardian article, if you try and purchase the chemicals required to make a lot of these home made bombs in the UK, you quite likely to get flagged up. Sure there are way around it, but it adds another barrier and another thing to go wrong for the terrorists.
Apparently, you could buy industrial quantities of the stuff you need from normal supermarkets in parts of Europe totally unchecked.
It requires pretty sophisticated levels of logistics and training to bring off the co-ordinated attacks like what we saw in Paris.
It might start off like Four Lions (2010), but once you start getting experienced and trained soldiers with the expertise and accuracy that brings, its going to get a lot worse.
Between 2006 ans 2014 there was 30,000 terrorist incidents in Iraq alone. Just think of how our world would change if they were able to replicate just a couple of percent of those attacks in the EU or USA? We would see a very different, darker world very quickly.
As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe?
Don't forget alot of ISIS fighters ORIGINALLY came from London, Brussels, etc etc. So I don't think it's a question of one or the other, both can and probably are true.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe? If I was Beardo-al-Baghdadi watching Merkel invite everyone from Syria to come stay in lovely Europe I'd have clapped with glee and said Right, send 1000 of our best men, this minute.
It's the obvious move. And wem ade it so easy. Europe accepted ONE MILLION, or more, last year. Inveigling 500 into that chaos would be a doddle. We already know some of the Paris bombers were bogus migrants from the beaches of Lesbos.
Why are you so delusional? Why do you think ISIS would not do this? Slaughtering Europeans in London or Paris is much better propaganda for them than grinding out victories against Assad.
There is no need. They have lots of willing helpers here already. People who speak the local language, know the customs, know how not to stand out like a sore thumb.
As I say there is zero evidence of such infiltration to date. I may be proved wrong and some might appear. But this looks like an invitation to take our eyes off the real ticking object to me.
Well two out of the four involved just now had been to Syria. One tried to cross and was deported by the Turks. It doesn't need to be local fighters, they could just train and send back western fighters with European passports.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Unfortunately there is no way to know after Merkel's crazy policy. Europe has let millions of people in without doing even the most basic of checks. It could be a real figure, 400 out of 1.3-1.5m is not a large figure.
We will be much better focussing on the potential problems of more than 400 in London, Luton and Bradford and I am sure our intelligence services are. They have done a brilliant job over the last 8 years.
Yes, of course. That's only because Dave opted us out of the EU refugee programme and did it properly. Again, it feels like we're going around in circles. Dave did the nation a real service by refusing to open up our border to an unlimited number of migrants without being able to make even the most basic of checks.
I completely agree with that. Merkel was an idiot of the first water and when the first Germans die she will be in serious bother whether they are killed by terrorists from Berlin or Raqqa.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe? If I was Beardo-al-Baghdadi watching Merkel invite everyone from Syria to come stay in lovely Europe I'd have clapped with glee and said Right, send 1000 of our best men, this minute.
It's the obvious move. And wem ade it so easy. Europe accepted ONE MILLION, or more, last year. Inveigling 500 into that chaos would be a doddle. We already know some of the Paris bombers were bogus migrants from the beaches of Lesbos.
Why are you so delusional? Why do you think ISIS would not do this? Slaughtering Europeans in London or Paris is much better propaganda for them than grinding out victories against Assad.
There is no need. They have lots of willing helpers here already. People who speak the local language, know the customs, know how not to stand out like a sore thumb.
As I say there is zero evidence of such infiltration to date. I may be proved wrong and some might appear. But this looks like an invitation to take our eyes off the real ticking object to me.
Well two out of the four involved just now had been to Syria. One tried to cross and was deported by the Turks. It doesn't need to be local fighters, they could just train and send back western fighters with European passports.
Indeed. I thought those returning from Syria to this country were being treated extremely harshly by our courts. I was wrong. That risk is very real.
Leave need to change these numbers if they want to win. People won't vote to make the economy worse
twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/712688388785192960
High risk: 30%
Slight to No risk: 65%
Leave seem OK for this.
High/Slight Risk 69% Hardly/No Risk 26%
Leave seems holed below the waterline .
I'm perfectly OK with a slight risk. A slight risk is completely acceptable for anything more than a slight return.
Do you fly? Try telling the passengers there's a VERY slight risk the pilot might have a heart attack. Does anyone want to leave the plane? I think you might find yourself the only passenger
Terrible example, I'm a frequent flier yes and have always recognised that there is a very slight risk on flying ... it's just that the risk from flying is better than all the alternatives.
Anyone who avoids every risk whatsoever in anything they do is simply going to become a crazed phobic hermit like Howard Hughes.
But didn't Howard Hughes actually like flying - to the extent that he actually commissioned the design of very large airplanes?
ISIS are evildoers who try to use terrorism to divide us, but of course we should believe them when they tell us they are smuggling bombers in with refugees.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIL when they claim to have introduced 400 trained terrorists into Europe? What evidence is there to support that claim? As far as I am aware pretty much all of those caught or killed in both France and Belgium were home grown. At worst one or two of them may have left their country of origin, gone to Syria got some rudimentary training and then come back.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Does anyone seriously believe ISIS have NOT smuggled 400 fighters into Europe? If I was Beardo-al-Baghdadi watching Merkel invite everyone from Syria to come stay in lovely Europe I'd have clapped with glee and said Right, send 1000 of our best men, this minute.
It's the obvious move. And wem ade it so easy. Europe accepted ONE MILLION, or more, last year. Inveigling 500 into that chaos would be a doddle. We already know some of the Paris bombers were bogus migrants from the beaches of Lesbos.
Why are you so delusional? Why do you think ISIS would not do this? Slaughtering Europeans in London or Paris is much better propaganda for them than grinding out victories against Assad.
There is no need. They have lots of willing helpers here already. People who speak the local language, know the customs, know how not to stand out like a sore thumb.
As I say there is zero evidence of such infiltration to date. I may be proved wrong and some might appear. But this looks like an invitation to take our eyes off the real ticking object to me.
ISIS is quite short of experienced fighters, their casualty rate is apparently about 30% per year. They need cannon fodder coming in rather than going out. There is a real possibility that Raqqa and Mosul will fall this year.
That may actually create the problem though. Think of the aftermath of the Boer war when Pretoria fell. When freed from having to defend territory, guerrillas are far more mobile and dangerous.
You are in pretty bad standing in my book when you see pictures and think shit he is as bad as George W...The incident where the US guy got Jahadi John treatment and Obama gave a 2 min speech before being photographed joking around on the Links a few minutes later was absolutely mind blowing.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
For some reason I can't use the quote button so this is in response to Foxnsox below.
It is true that many of the terrorists are not migrants but the unpalatable fact is that they are the children or grandchildren of migrants, of migrants from a small range of countries and generally from one religion. It means that it is harder to deal with them because the deportation route is not available - and even when it is it takes years.
But it also leads to this two (unpalatable to some, maybe) facts: the mass migration from these countries / communities, particularly when it continued during a time when the winds of extremist change was blew through the Islamic world, has turned out to be a mistake. It should not continue. Second, simply being born and educated in a country does not make a person loyal to that country or fully a citizen in the sense of someone who thinks of themselves as French, Belgian, English or whatever - as opposed to someone merely holding a passport and living in a place. The latter are necessary for citizenship but they are not sufficient. The authorities have wrongly assumed that they are.
And these two facts mean that we should not be continuing to increase migration from the very same countries/communities- the complete opposite of what Germany and others seem to want - and we need to be much more muscular about our expectations of behaviour of all our citizens. Full integration/assimilation is needed - not the flabby turning of blind eyes which is what our much vaunted tolerance has too often meant.
Both of these courses of action are going to involve some unpalatable choices and courses of action, ones which might have been avoided had we done this years ago. But we are where we are. We can either do nothing and see a gradual erosion of Western freedoms and values or we can take a stand. If we do the latter we might have a chance of creating societies where all sorts of people, including those Muslims who do not want to indulge in some sort of End of Days Nihilistic assault on us or ignore our laws, history and values, can happily co-exist.
I am not tremendously optimistic. It's not just that politicians seem scared of making difficult choices. It is that too many of them are not at all clear-eyed - in public anyway - about what is going on and what the risks are. They are too fearful, too unwilling to look facts in the face, too mushy to do the hard thinking and not ruthless enough to take the action needed.
Nature abhors a vacuum. At some point there will be people with the characteristics needed but they may be the stuff of nightmares for the rest of us.
Of course, the BMA has four weeks to avert this walkout if they wanted...
For the sake of the referendum Cameron should make one last u-turn and sack Hunt; He's made a complete arse of himself and he's going to make the government very unpopular just at the wrong time
Hunt is following through on a manifesto promise that was very high profile during the general election, is that something to be sacked over?
YES
Not every party holds their own manifesto in such contempt as the Lib Dems held their own while in government.
Only the Conservatives would put things in their manifesto and then implement them in such a way that threatens the lives of many patients .
Except the reforms are being done to improve the lives and survival of patients. This is a strike over Saturday pay rates not patient safety.
That is undoubtedly the government's intention which makes you wonder how Jeremy Hunt has ballsed it up. We can safely assume the doctors are also interested in helping patients. There does seem to be a legitimate doubt over the root cause of the weekend excess (and therefore how to address it) but the aim is the same so how did Hunt manage to alienate so many doctors and turn this into an industrial dispute?
By asking them to join the 21st century and work on a Saturday less than one in four weekends without bonus pay.
That is it in its entirety. Everything else is filler. Gvt wanted them to work on sats without bonus pay, and they didnt. They worked out that people would support them more or less for anything.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
I'm off to the Netherlands soon, that trip to Turkey must have been a figment of my imagination a couple of years back though.
I agree with you on the dangers of some Islamic subcultures in the UK.
It is worth noting though that other ethnicities and religions do not create the same problems. A self contained non-english speaking community that peacefully co-exists is not a particular problem. We have had Chinatowns in many of our cities for a century or longer. Sure, I would prefer they integrated better, but not a big issue for the country.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
I don't remember it being a problem to go on holiday to Spain in the 1960s, before we even joined the EU. Or maybe you had to wait years for a visa and then get vaccinated, perhaps I forget.
But surely -Yossarianschild says that we will have impermeable barriers at our borders if Leave wins. Presunmably policed by unicorns.
I agree with you on the dangers of some Islamic subcultures in the UK.
It is worth noting though that other ethnicities and religions do not create the same problems. A self contained non-english speaking community that peacefully co-exists is not a particular problem. We have had Chinatowns in many of our cities for a century or longer. Sure, I would prefer they integrated better, but not a big issue for the country.
Some communties are self funding, some cultures are made up of people who are enterprising and prosperous, some, to be quite frank are not. The ones that arent only survive because most of them are on benefits. Somalian communities the uk range from 65% to 95% unemployed.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
It is a myth that EU membership gave them freedom of movement. Except when we have been at war with various countries or they have faced internal strife there has generally always been freedom of movement throughout Europe going back into the 19th century.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
It is a myth that EU membership gave them freedom of movement. Except when we have been at war with various countries or they have faced internal strife there has generally always been freedom of movement throughout Europe going back into the 19th century.
Explain that to YossariansChild who wants closed borders patrolled by 10s of thousands Immigration officials so we can all live on an idyllic Little England island adrift from the real world .
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
It is a myth that EU membership gave them freedom of movement. Except when we have been at war with various countries or they have faced internal strife there has generally always been freedom of movement throughout Europe going back into the 19th century.
Explain that to YossariansChild who wants closed borders patrolled by 10s of thousands Immigration officials so we can all live on an idyllic Little England island adrift from the real world .
He is talking rubbish. But that is no excuse to perpetuate myths.
Agreed. But our political class have been very reluctant to say this. Some immigrant groups are more useful and less likely to be harmful than others. Our desire not to discriminate for irrelevant reasons has resulted in us not discriminating when discrimination for relevant reasons was essential.
This is what happens when you turn a concept: "racism", "discrimination", "tolerance" into a totem without understanding what those concepts really mean and how they should be applied. It's what happens when you substitute the shouting of slogans for thought. It's what happens when you behave like children in a playground shouting "boo" words at each other. There are not many grown ups around.
The issue is that Muslim communities seem to have the most difficulty assimilating (hardly a surprise given that they seem to find it difficult to live in peace with their co-religionists), as their size increases the need to assimilate is less (one reason why numbers matter) and the Islamic world is being battered by extremist ideology - and has been for decades.
None of this is new. It's not as if there wasn't evidence from Egypt in the 1930s, or even post-war showing that Middle Eastern societies were a bit of a mess, to put it mildly, and mass migration from them would be as likely to import the mess as to import people wanting to escape from it.
Weekend mortality rate spikes (which are a cause of massive debate as to their existence and cause if they exist by epidemiologists) is caused - in the government's world - by not enough junior doctors on shift at the weekend.
Their solution is to reduce the number of doctors on shift during the week.
Why does the government want to make hospital care more dangerous Monday to Friday?
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors to unrestricted migrant movements into the country.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
They might have 1000 ready to go, in total. Including lone wolves and nutters etc. God knows. 2000, 4000.
4000 terrorists = 40,000 dead Europeans. That's the entire US combat death toll in the Vietnam War.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT , 1st prize to YossariansChild . Can be beaten though to 1st one who suggests blowing up the Channel Tunnel to help protect our borders .
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, raise your head from the bar charts and say 'me? I was with Nick Clegg.' Im sure they'll respect you for it..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
Odd thing is that I visited France in 1971, Germany and Austria in 1972 and East Berlin before the wall came down. Amazing that all happened before we were in the EU together. I even crossed the Germany to Austria border by coach. As for security against terrorists, the Munich airport in autumn of 1972 was my first sight of machine guns following the tragedy at the Olympics earlier.
Weekend mortality rate spikes (which are a cause of massive debate as to their existence and cause if they exist by epidemiologists) is caused - in the government's world - by not enough junior doctors on shift at the weekend. Their solution is to reduce the number of doctors on shift during the week. Why does the government want to make hospital care more dangerous Monday to Friday?
Alistair, are you saying that we are not increasing the number of doctors in the NHS?
Glad to have ruffled a few feathers. Whether we have free movement or not - unicorns, 1000s of border guards, men in harlequin outfits escorting migrants to villas in Worthing matters less to me than WE as a country decide who we let in. IN the EU we dont - that is a diktat from the EU. Outside the EU WE decide. If thats a Trumpian wall or an open door matters less than the fact it was OUR decision.
Weekend mortality rate spikes (which are a cause of massive debate as to their existence and cause if they exist by epidemiologists) is caused - in the government's world - by not enough junior doctors on shift at the weekend. Their solution is to reduce the number of doctors on shift during the week. Why does the government want to make hospital care more dangerous Monday to Friday?
Alistair, are you saying that we are not increasing the number of doctors in the NHS?
Perhaps he's arguing for moving Drs from the weekend to the so that it is safer Monday to Friday.
If there is a finite resource - and the NHS is always a finite resource never mind what the dreamers say - then that resource should be allocated most efficiently.
To say "more this" or "more that" with no supporting overall analysis is just simplistic imo. It always is.
The Associated Press @AP 5m5 minutes ago BREAKING: The Islamic State group has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves, the AP has learned.
As always, I've never been more thankful for a Tory PM who shut the doors.
Though the brothers in Belgium were not migrants though, were they?
Neither were the 7/7 bombers, the Woolwich killers etc.
Which just makes it worse. You have to add the 400 ISIS killers to the killers who already here.
2nd prize for Leave's Project Fear campaign to SeanT ...
'If you tolerate this, your kids will be next.' I protect my kids you vote Lib Dem - nuff said.
Idiot
Don't worry. When your kids ask you what did you do when Europe was being bombed by ISIS you can look them gravely in the eye, ..
My daughter and family have just got back from Amsterdam , my son is off to Germany in a month's time . They relish the freedom of movement given them by EU membership .
I don't remember it being a problem to go on holiday to Spain in the 1960s, before we even joined the EU.
But surely -Yossarianschild says that we will have impermeable barriers at our borders if Leave wins. Presunmably policed by unicorns.
..the LEAVE argument should be if we quit Europe you will then get the political option of closing our borders at the next election. Something which is quite impossible now. Leaving the EU is just the first necessary step, not the final move, for those who want the UK to entirely control who comes and goes. That's the only honest way to sell LEAVE. And it would work. And solve their problems of incoherence.
It is puzzling why even when this is said over and over again, some of the advocates of REMAIN on here go on and on and on about how LEAVE should "come clean". It is as if the concept of having political power to decide what happens to our borders is an alien concept and also that the concept that voters can then choose what degrees of immigration happens through the ballot box is incomprehensible. There is also recognition that eventually political parties will respond to what the majority want.
Maybe the loss of soveriegnty has removed the belief from many REMOVE people that voting can really influence the decisions taken by our rulers? Is this a consequence of being partly ruled by the EU?
I agree with you on the dangers of some Islamic subcultures in the UK.
It is worth noting though that other ethnicities and religions do not create the same problems. A self contained non-english speaking community that peacefully co-exists is not a particular problem. We have had Chinatowns in many of our cities for a century or longer. Sure, I would prefer they integrated better, but not a big issue for the country.
Some communties are self funding, some cultures are made up of people who are enterprising and prosperous, some, to be quite frank are not. The ones that arent only survive because most of them are on benefits. Somalian communities the uk range from 65% to 95% unemployed.
No - there's a problem, but not that bad. Registered unemployed (i.e. claiming benefits) were 17% in the last figures I've seen. 19% were studying, 25% employed and a worrying 39% inactive (neither employed nor claiming benefit - essentially dependants). There's a discussion of it here:
1. Could he be charged with an offence in Belgium, based on what the Turkish authorities said? This would be the ideal i.e. when someone disappears off to the Syrian border and is caught and deported, they are charged, convicted and locked up. But who knows whether the Belgians have such an offence or whether the evidence was strong enough.
2. If 1 doesn't work, then the only option is to put him under surveillance - but that is very resource expensive. Given the numbers of probable targets, I doubt that the Belgian authorities have the resources to do this - even if they had the will.
3. If 1 is not available and 2 is not done then you have what appears to have happened here - a militant is left to get on with it apparently unhindered.
The more you have communities which seem to be outside the effective control of the state, as Moelenbeek (and parts of the Paris banlieues) the easier it will be for those who wish the state harm to flourish unhindered. It is essential that the state has full control of all parts of its territory and of all those in its territory. This is not something new needed in response to Islamist or any other sort of terrorism. This is basic stuff which any medieval king would have understood.
There has been an abrogation of sovereignty by countries whereby they have, to all intents and purposes, abandoned parts of their territory to potentially hostile forces. That is in part because there has been - and continues to be - a culture of denial about the fact that these are hostile forces or breeding grounds for them. Too many in the governing classes have tried to make the facts match what they would like to be true. They - or rather the innocent civilians - are now being mugged by reality, a reality which has been all too evident for those with eyes to see ever since we saw book burning and assassination attempts at the behest of a foreign religious/political leader decades ago.
It is grimly ironic that for all the talk of loss of sovereignty in relation to the EU it is this loss of sovereignty which is far more damaging and which needs to be reversed. The longer it is left, the tougher it will have to be. If it is not done at all, the future will be grim.
This is, by far, the best analysis I have read on the subject. You are a f-ing legend. Please stand for office.
Seconded. Cyclefree makes some awesome posts and we get it all for free.
Surely the answer to no 1 is yes. IS is Belgium's enemy, if they have been fighting for it they are traitors.
Comments
I've no idea what Jeremy Hunt would score but if it made single figures I'd be amazed.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/attacks-on-transportation-targets-like-those-in-brussels-have-become-rarer/
Unless they are some of the couple of hundered of British citizens gone there.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/14379159.Two_more_North_East_councils_refuse_to_sign_devolution_deal/?ref=mr&lp=14
'Up yours, George' seems to be the message from south of the Tyne.
Vote Remain and let terrorists kill your kids': well its a view I suppose, though not one likely to meet with success.
All of the main parties are broadly trying to do the right thing, and they're attempting to make whatever that 'right thing' is work for everyone.
The one thing that I'm sure I know about Jeremy Corbyn is that he has good intentions. I'm pretty happy to extend that to almost all politicians. (There are a couple, I have to admit that I sort of suspect don't have good intentions. However I generally think that's me being wrong.)
https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/712685417120665600
Happy to hear your cost benefit analysis. Either that or more bollocks!
Police raid found sufficient bombmaking materials to make 50kg of the same explosive used in Paris attacks, says expert
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/23/brussels-attackers-had-enough-for-10-more-bombs-expert
Thank god for dodgy mini cab firms...Good job they didn't order an Uber!
This plus the guy with the biggest bomb either bricked it or it malfunctioned....it could have been A LOT LOT worse.
Anyone who avoids every risk whatsoever in anything they do is simply going to become a crazed phobic hermit like Howard Hughes.
Of course the fact that they are almost certainly lying about this does not end the problem. The problem is that lone wolves operating in their own countries are much harder to stop. Not all of them are as idiotic as those convicted in the UK today. That is where the problem lies and that is where our intelligence efforts must be directed. At our own. Chasing after almost certainly non existent interlopers in the refugees would be a waste of time and limited resources.
We have a massive advantage in this country in that it is quite difficult to get hold of serious guns. Efforts to do so are very likely to bring you to the attention of the authorities before you actually do anything with the guns. Unfortunately Belgium and significant parts of the continent do not seem to have this advantage. Again, in my view, the absolute priority of our border controls is that we keep that advantage.
Cyclefree makes some awesome posts and we get it all for free.
'Bollocks' flatters it
Apparently, you could buy industrial quantities of the stuff you need from normal supermarkets in parts of Europe totally unchecked.
From what I understand, this home made explosive you make in big batches and have to let it dry out.
Worth bearing in mind when doing door knocking in Tower Hamlets.
It does seem most of it is home grown with support from one or two facilitators from outside Europe at the moment. How much credibility can be placed on 400 I don't know but the thing about terror is that there doesn't have to be any. Just saying it ties the country up in knots and that's what they work on. Directly affecting the way the country operates and works on a daily basis by simple threats.
With the migrant crisis ongoing it's going to be difficult to prevent any cells moving freely around Europe. One exception of course is here. How many times has the channel saved us.
I fear it cannot for much longer if this continues. I admit I have no idea what the answer is though with people that would quite happily die for their cause. I don't think there is one.
As I say there is zero evidence of such infiltration to date. I may be proved wrong and some might appear. But this looks like an invitation to take our eyes off the real ticking object to me.
It might start off like Four Lions (2010), but once you start getting experienced and trained soldiers with the expertise and accuracy that brings, its going to get a lot worse.
Between 2006 ans 2014 there was 30,000 terrorist incidents in Iraq alone. Just think of how our world would change if they were able to replicate just a couple of percent of those attacks in the EU or USA? We would see a very different, darker world very quickly.
We have a war on multiple fronts.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/03/23/14/327D3A4500000578-3506098-image-a-14_1458742285134.jpg
That may actually create the problem though. Think of the aftermath of the Boer war when Pretoria fell. When freed from having to defend territory, guerrillas are far more mobile and dangerous.
It is true that many of the terrorists are not migrants but the unpalatable fact is that they are the children or grandchildren of migrants, of migrants from a small range of countries and generally from one religion. It means that it is harder to deal with them because the deportation route is not available - and even when it is it takes years.
But it also leads to this two (unpalatable to some, maybe) facts: the mass migration from these countries / communities, particularly when it continued during a time when the winds of extremist change was blew through the Islamic world, has turned out to be a mistake. It should not continue. Second, simply being born and educated in a country does not make a person loyal to that country or fully a citizen in the sense of someone who thinks of themselves as French, Belgian, English or whatever - as opposed to someone merely holding a passport and living in a place. The latter are necessary for citizenship but they are not sufficient. The authorities have wrongly assumed that they are.
And these two facts mean that we should not be continuing to increase migration from the very same countries/communities- the complete opposite of what Germany and others seem to want - and we need to be much more muscular about our expectations of behaviour of all our citizens. Full integration/assimilation is needed - not the flabby turning of blind eyes which is what our much vaunted tolerance has too often meant.
Both of these courses of action are going to involve some unpalatable choices and courses of action, ones which might have been avoided had we done this years ago. But we are where we are. We can either do nothing and see a gradual erosion of Western freedoms and values or we can take a stand. If we do the latter we might have a chance of creating societies where all sorts of people, including those Muslims who do not want to indulge in some sort of End of Days Nihilistic assault on us or ignore our laws, history and values, can happily co-exist.
I am not tremendously optimistic. It's not just that politicians seem scared of making difficult choices. It is that too many of them are not at all clear-eyed - in public anyway - about what is going on and what the risks are. They are too fearful, too unwilling to look facts in the face, too mushy to do the hard thinking and not ruthless enough to take the action needed.
Nature abhors a vacuum. At some point there will be people with the characteristics needed but they may be the stuff of nightmares for the rest of us.
Could Osborne look anymore like a Bond villain in this photo?
I agree with you on the dangers of some Islamic subcultures in the UK.
It is worth noting though that other ethnicities and religions do not create the same problems. A self contained non-english speaking community that peacefully co-exists is not a particular problem. We have had Chinatowns in many of our cities for a century or longer. Sure, I would prefer they integrated better, but not a big issue for the country.
Agreed. But our political class have been very reluctant to say this. Some immigrant groups are more useful and less likely to be harmful than others. Our desire not to discriminate for irrelevant reasons has resulted in us not discriminating when discrimination for relevant reasons was essential.
This is what happens when you turn a concept: "racism", "discrimination", "tolerance" into a totem without understanding what those concepts really mean and how they should be applied. It's what happens when you substitute the shouting of slogans for thought. It's what happens when you behave like children in a playground shouting "boo" words at each other. There are not many grown ups around.
The issue is that Muslim communities seem to have the most difficulty assimilating (hardly a surprise given that they seem to find it difficult to live in peace with their co-religionists), as their size increases the need to assimilate is less (one reason why numbers matter) and the Islamic world is being battered by extremist ideology - and has been for decades.
None of this is new. It's not as if there wasn't evidence from Egypt in the 1930s, or even post-war showing that Middle Eastern societies were a bit of a mess, to put it mildly, and mass migration from them would be as likely to import the mess as to import people wanting to escape from it.
Their solution is to reduce the number of doctors on shift during the week.
Why does the government want to make hospital care more dangerous Monday to Friday?
If there is a finite resource - and the NHS is always a finite resource never mind what the dreamers say - then that resource should be allocated most efficiently.
To say "more this" or "more that" with no supporting overall analysis is just simplistic imo. It always is.
Maybe the loss of soveriegnty has removed the belief from many REMOVE people that voting can really influence the decisions taken by our rulers? Is this a consequence of being partly ruled by the EU?
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21583710-somalis-fare-much-worse-other-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long
The numbers are relatively small - under 700 asylum applications in 2012 for the whole of the UK.