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  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2016

    Andrew Lilico
    I see at least someone read Lynton Crosby's Telegraph "How to win the Brexit referendum" article carefully:https://t.co/fOft946RIY

    Bloody hell.
    The NHS is one of the biggest pulls for the Americans to agree to TTIP and the amount of money we spend on it, and David Cameron’s assertion that it doesn’t need a formal, written exemption because it won’t be subject to TTIP is basically a complete lie.

    There is something in writing, that is formal that proves the NHS will be subject to the trade agreement. It is in a document that was filed in the European Parliament library in June, specifically about TTIP. It says: “The EU reserves the right to adopt or maintain any measure with regard to the provision of all education, health or social services which receive public funding or state support in any form.

    TTIP would change that. It would have to comply with the investors’ demands before considering the demands of the public. It would change the focus from being about TLC to being about PLC, and it will happen.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    America Elects
    Latest Arizona Poll - GOP:

    Trump 46
    Cruz 33
    Kasich 17

    via @Opinion_Savvy
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    America Elects
    Latest Arizona Poll - GOP:

    Trump 46
    Cruz 33
    Kasich 17

    via @Opinion_Savvy

    http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/110984766-storyw

    So tomorrow night won't feature any kind of nail-biting, Cruz wins Utah, Trump wins Arizona, the only question is whether Cruz and Trump will get more than 50 in their respective states, more so in Utah.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262
    Pulpstar said:

    Sure I just heard the Rt Hon member for Thanet South on the radio just waft away £4 Bn as if it was a rounding error.

    Does someone need to remind the Tories of the old pounds and pence anecdote ?

    Look after the billions and the hundreds of billions start to...

    No cuts means, sooner or later, more debt, higher interest payments, and a heavy rise in the tax burden on working people.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Trump in the Heart of the Beast
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMba8vKyp38
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    I wonder why it is getting no publicity. The government shamefully support it, and the people that should care most (Labour) are so far up their own europhile arse that they wouldn't dream of mentioning it to the public.
  • Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Which makes it slightly surprising that Labour Leave isn't making hay with it.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Tell that to Labour who are banging on about saving the NHS every day since 2010.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Which makes it slightly surprising that Labour Leave isn't making hay with it.
    Not surprising at all, because it's complete bollocks. Indigo has misunderstood an admittedly fairly loopy piece by a UKIP MEP.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    LabourGO have tweeted about it IIRC but haven't seen anything else

    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Which makes it slightly surprising that Labour Leave isn't making hay with it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262

    Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Which makes it slightly surprising that Labour Leave isn't making hay with it.
    Not surprising at all, because it's complete bollocks. Indigo has misunderstood an admittedly fairly loopy piece by a UKIP MEP.
    That hasn't stopped Remain, of course.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited March 2016

    That hasn't stopped Remain, of course.

    True.

    But in fact, neither side is making much hay out of this nonsense. The NHS is completely irrelevant to the argument, and I think voters understand that.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    There are over five million recipients of non contributory disabled benefits such as Attendance Allowance, Personal Independence Payments or Disability Living Allowance.

    There are 2.5m recipients of Employment and Support Allowance. (sickness benefit)

    There are individual constituencies in the UK where the disability claimant rate is one in six working age adults, and regions or nations where it is one in ten.
  • Another reason why Trump must lose in November,

    https://twitter.com/costareports/status/711985916454297600
  • Mr. Indigo, if anyone (amongst the public) knew about TTIP, the line it'll destroy the NHS could win the referendum for Leave.

    Which makes it slightly surprising that Labour Leave isn't making hay with it.
    Not surprising at all, because it's complete bollocks. Indigo has misunderstood an admittedly fairly loopy piece by a UKIP MEP.
    The NHS won't be subject to TTIP?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MP_SE said:

    Indigo said:

    chestnut said:

    The problem with IT projects in DWP has always been the same.

    The underlying rules and system are pretty complex, and the politicians change those rules at the drop of a hat, or a bad press story.

    Trying to combine multiple benefits whilst incorporating real-time wage reporting is largely 'asking for it'.

    Trying to do it live is stupid. It should be done as a research project first of all, take a data feed and work out the issues about real time reporting before you get anywhere near writing the real system.

    Problem is it will then fall into the same hole that all such systems do in the private sector. No one wants to fund a project that isn't going to have a real world end system, even if the work is massively beneficial to the end result. If you do manage to get the research funded, you have no chance of throwing it away and writing the production system properly, some muppet will want you to butcher the prototype and "productionize it".

    Many years ago the Chief Engineer at IBM UK told me this truth. "The final stage of any prototype project should be to delete it, otherwise some idiot will try and find a way to get it into production"
    I have been meaning to buy this mug for a while now. It says, "I don't always test my code, but when I do, I prefer to do it in production."

    http://www.zazzle.co.uk/i_dont_always_test_my_code_ringer_mug-168164484653328675
    :D
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    chestnut said:

    There are over five million recipients of non contributory disabled benefits such as Attendance Allowance, Personal Independence Payments or Disability Living Allowance.

    There are 2.5m recipients of Employment and Support Allowance. (sickness benefit)

    There are individual constituencies in the UK where the disability claimant rate is one in six working age adults, and regions or nations where it is one in ten.

    I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the only personage capable of really constraining welfare is Mr bankruptcy.

    The politician who will just tough this stuff out because the tax payer can't afford it no longer exists.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Steve Hawkes
    Fancy that ! New email from the Tories at 6.45pm, 48 page report on 'Delivering a Party structure for the future' ... @christopherhope
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Another reason why Trump must lose in November,

    https://twitter.com/costareports/status/711985916454297600

    Boy, he really doesn't like Cameron and Merkel.
    If you pissed off Trump, he really gets pissed off.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Charles said:

    @Plato. - Not sure what is worse, lewd acts with a dog, filming it, or being 44 while doing it.

    I'm going to regret asking this question, but what in your opinion is the optimal age for lewd acts with a dog?
    No comment :lol:
    Older or younger than the optimal age for lewd acts with a pig?
    According to the PB Tories that kind of behaviour is a normal part of adolescence.... Or that's what they said when they thought Dave had done it anyway.

    He had that kind of influence then
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited March 2016

    The NHS won't be subject to TTIP?

    Only inasmuch as any contract for opening up tenders to private companies is. If the NHS chooses to outsource services, US companies will be better able to bid for any available contracts. Equally UK companies will be better able to bid for contracts in the US. That's kinda the idea of a trade agreement, right? And it's what the Leave side say they want more of, so would presumably be equally true if we left the EU.

    But it doesn't force the NHS to outsource contracts, as the bit highlighted in bold by Indigo points out.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,504

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Amazing stat from Stephen Crabb: 3 million more disabled people now in work than in 2010.

    Incredibly, IDS has trashed his own, fantastic, achievement.

    How is that true? That seems almost as much if not more than the whole number of jobs created in the UK economy over the same period.
    That's simply a nonsense number. There aren't 3 million disabled people in the country.
    It is, but according to the government own figures...

    "There are over 11 million people with a limiting long term illness, impairment or disability 1."

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/disability-facts-and-figures/disability-facts-and-figures
    Well 10 million of those need a massive kick in their nether regions. I've no idea of the actual number, but if 20% of the population is disabled by that definition then almost by definition they're not. They're just below average in terms of capability. We should not subsidise the merely below average.

    Real disability is a rather nasty thing. Sham disability is nasty for different reasons.
    Blue badge fraud is massive.
    I thought that one of the issues with this was not so much people getting blue badges to which they are not entitled but rather that they get used by their family and friends.

    One of the difficulties with the whole disability benefits debate is understanding what "disabled" means. I tend to think of disability as something pretty severe whereas it may well cover conditions which I would never think of rendering someone disabled in any sense. For instance, I have two long-standing health conditions which require permanent medical treatment - and some back issues which can be occasionally absolutely crippling. They've never stopped me living life to the full, mind. I've no idea whether something like that would classify me as "disabled" or not.

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Is that welfare comment about this Budget or the whole Parliament?

    Because if they've ringfenced Aid, Health and the whole welfare budget where else can they cut? Education, Defence and... policing?

    They've made the 2% commitment on Defence.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Wanderer, indeed, and are currently meeting it by creative accounting.

    Mr. Freggles, who thought he'd actually done it? Not the author of the biography, for one.

    Mr. Eagles, Corbyn is like an anti-matter version of Grand Admiral Thrawn, Tywin Lannister and Hannibal rolled into one.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    The NHS won't be subject to TTIP?

    Only inasmuch as any contract for opening up tenders to private companies is. If the NHS chooses to outsource services, US companies will be better able to bid for any available contracts. Equally UK companies will be better able to bid for contracts in the US. That's kinda the idea of a trade agreement, right? And it's what the Leave side say they want more of.
    New procurement laws from April 2016 mean vast numbers of services will need to be procured once their contracts expire.

    Good time to be a physiotherapy company in Delaware
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,048
    chestnut said:

    There are over five million recipients of non contributory disabled benefits such as Attendance Allowance, Personal Independence Payments or Disability Living Allowance.

    There are 2.5m recipients of Employment and Support Allowance. (sickness benefit)

    There are individual constituencies in the UK where the disability claimant rate is one in six working age adults, and regions or nations where it is one in ten.

    IDS should have been cutting all this crap. I quite like the man, but if he can happily preside over such widespread fraud then I've no interest in his views.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,798
    edited March 2016
    I know this is from OldHolburn but even so....

    https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/711986005310574592


    If this is true I think Brussels are even sillier than I thought they were....
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The NHS won't be subject to TTIP?

    Only inasmuch as any contract for opening up tenders to private companies is. If the NHS chooses to outsource services, US companies will be better able to bid for any available contracts. Equally UK companies will be better able to bid for contracts in the US. That's kinda the idea of a trade agreement, right? And it's what the Leave side say they want more of.

    But it doesn't force the NHS to outsource contracts, as the bit highlighted in bold by Indigo points out.
    and being able to take action against the NHS by way of ISDS for adopting policies in say, drug procurement, which disadvantage US companies ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Another reason why Trump must lose in November,

    https://twitter.com/costareports/status/711985916454297600

    Trump is sort of comme ci comme ca with me as Ive no axe to grind.

    But does it ever occur to you establishment types WHY are people voting for him ? Or UKIP or AfD or whoever? Trump is a product of the establishment, their constant unwillingness to listen to the "chavs" simply makes the problem bigger and slowly boosts the extremes since ordinary voters increasingly become exasperated.

    "Theyve nowhere else to go" isn;t true.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,736
    Received a leaflet in the post from Britain Stronger in Europe today, my second from Remain having also received one in the High Street. I have yet to receive anything from Leave
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Indigo said:

    and being able to take action against the NHS by way of ISDS for adopting policies in say, drug procurement, which disadvantage US companies ?

    And vice versa. A (slightly more) level playing field.

    Do you Leavers want a trade agreement with the US, or not? If you do, that's EXACTLY what the UK-US trade deal would comprise. That's the whole idea of a trade agreement. You do understand this, I hope?
  • The NHS won't be subject to TTIP?

    Only inasmuch as any contract for opening up tenders to private companies is. If the NHS chooses to outsource services, US companies will be better able to bid for any available contracts. Equally UK companies will be better able to bid for contracts in the US. That's kinda the idea of a trade agreement, right? And it's what the Leave side say they want more of, so would presumably be equally true if we left the EU.

    But it doesn't force the NHS to outsource contracts, as the bit highlighted in bold by Indigo points out.
    I'm fine with all this. I'm not part of the group that make a fetish of the NHS.
    Lefties do, so why are they not kicking up a fuss about this?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Indigo said:

    and being able to take action against the NHS by way of ISDS for adopting policies in say, drug procurement, which disadvantage US companies ?

    And vice versa. A (slightly more) level playing field.

    Do you Leavers want a trade agreement with the US, or not? If you do, that's EXACTLY what the UK-US trade deal would comprise. That's the whole idea of a trade agreement. You do understand this, I hope?
    Really Richard the barrel scraping has sort of gone far enough. It's not as if youre actually convinving anyone.
  • NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. Indigo, it's like Hannibal and the Alps.

    "We will either find a way, or make one."

    The Establishment will feel smug and confident and then they'll soil their undergarments when Hannibal actually turns up and starts battering them. [NB the Establishment will eventually triumph, but it might be badly treated in the meantime].

    Mr. Eek, I'm not flabbergasted. Turkey being dodgy or the EU being incompetent and profligate is pretty much par for the course.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Trump: UK may leave EU. They're having a lot of problems...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    I'm fine with all this. I'm not part of the group that make a fetish of the NHS.
    Lefties do, so why are they not kicking up a fuss about this?

    Well, to be fair, they have moaned about TTIP, but in a completely ignorant way, saying it threatens the NHS model of nationalised supply of health services. Of course it doesn't.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Trump: try having a baby in Mexico and claiming you're a citizen. They'll laugh at you in your face...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567
    Omnium said:

    chestnut said:

    There are over five million recipients of non contributory disabled benefits such as Attendance Allowance, Personal Independence Payments or Disability Living Allowance.

    There are 2.5m recipients of Employment and Support Allowance. (sickness benefit)

    There are individual constituencies in the UK where the disability claimant rate is one in six working age adults, and regions or nations where it is one in ten.

    IDS should have been cutting all this crap. I quite like the man, but if he can happily preside over such widespread fraud then I've no interest in his views.
    Where is the fraud?
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Indigo said:

    and being able to take action against the NHS by way of ISDS for adopting policies in say, drug procurement, which disadvantage US companies ?

    And vice versa. A (slightly more) level playing field.

    Do you Leavers want a trade agreement with the US, or not? If you do, that's EXACTLY what the UK-US trade deal would comprise. That's the whole idea of a trade agreement. You do understand this, I hope?
    Interesting you are discussing this. I have sometimes wondered at the enthusiasm of some Leavers for bilateral free trade agreements. Such deals almost inevitably compromise sovereignty but a major plank of the case for leaving the EU is to avoid that. I actually find the sovereignty argument for Brexit quite appealing and it puzzles me that I am urged to take back sovereignty from Brussels and then trade it away to Washington and Beijing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262
    HYUFD said:

    Received a leaflet in the post from Britain Stronger in Europe today, my second from Remain having also received one in the High Street. I have yet to receive anything from Leave

    Me too
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,736

    HYUFD said:

    Received a leaflet in the post from Britain Stronger in Europe today, my second from Remain having also received one in the High Street. I have yet to receive anything from Leave

    Me too
    Yes Remain does seem to be getting into gear
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Bloomberg
    Donald Trump meets with Congressional Republicans as he looks to unify the GOP https://t.co/NCGSgtdUyC https://t.co/BVGNtYleeU
This discussion has been closed.