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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It now feels when in 2016 not if Osborne departs as Chancel

SystemSystem Posts: 12,267
edited March 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It now feels when in 2016 not if Osborne departs as Chancellor

Ladbrokes: 25/1 for George Osborne to be replaced as Chancellor before end of March.https://t.co/hODGfvMiVk pic.twitter.com/BHJ3MDqLon

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Comments

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,938
    Hammond, Gove or a 'bold' choice of Leadsom look like the only possibilities.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262
    And to think Tissue Price tipped him as a dead barely two months ago!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    Theresa May.
  • Who would Osborne want? My guess is Greg Hands.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567
    All this will look very different if Remain win by a wide margin. But this weekend's events do illustrate how quickly politics can change.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Reminiscent of the hysteria over Gordon Brown, 2009.

    Hysteria doesn't alter the political reality, which is that there's not a snowflake's chance in hell of Osborne being moved before the referendum.

    Afterwards, if it's Leave, then, yes of course, but that would be a decision for the new leader and it's unclear how quickly a new leader would be chosen.

    If it's Remain, Cameron will stay in place for a while and there will be a reshuffle to unify the party and bring forward some of the younger ministers. Osborne might be moved as part of that, but I doubt it; he is, after all, by any standard an exceptionally successful Chancellor, and a change of Chancellor would make better sense for Cameron's successor to do.

    I do, however, agree that Osborne's chances of being next leader have receded substantially, even before IDS's contribution to the debate. I suspect Osborne won't stand.
  • George Osborne What a Shame GOWAS. If only he had read TSE's article of advice going into the budget.
  • IDS, obvious, innit.
  • In this situation can Osborne really delegate the 3.30pm UQ?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    IFS
    Are we 'all in this together'? Our charts show the impact of tax and benefit reforms
    https://t.co/F21ZV5oN4x https://t.co/rFxUUkF8Ag
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    IDS, obvious, innit.

    No chance lol
  • DeafblokeDeafbloke Posts: 70
    edited March 2016
    fpt

    Deafbloke said:

    OK. So it was your own economic forecast, based on nothing at all, in complete contradiction of the OBR. The OBR, is of course, something you praise downthread as a significant reform.

    Based on 'nothing at all', other than many years of experience, and backed up by the IMF, the Bank of England, almost every international bank, the vast majority of reputable economists, and, most importantly, common sense.

    And of course it's not 'in contradiction' of the OBR. The OBR does what it does, and you have to understand the uses and limitations of their models.

    Of course it is in contradiction; the OBR have taken into account all the things you list in your first paragraph in arriving at their forecast. They forecast a hole, you are pretending it away.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Where's Ozzie?

    Faisal Islam
    Confirmed: David Gauke will answer UQ
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016

    Where's Ozzie?

    Faisal Islam
    Confirmed: David Gauke will answer UQ

    On important visit to witness a submarine patrol in person...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567

    Reminiscent of the hysteria over Gordon Brown, 2009.

    Hysteria doesn't alter the political reality, which is that there's not a snowflake's chance in hell of Osborne being moved before the referendum.

    Afterwards, if it's Leave, then, yes of course, but that would be a decision for the new leader and it's unclear how quickly a new leader would be chosen.

    If it's Remain, Cameron will stay in place for a while and there will be a reshuffle to unify the party and bring forward some of the younger ministers. Osborne might be moved as part of that, but I doubt it; he is, after all, by any standard an exceptionally successful Chancellor, and a change of Chancellor would make better sense for Cameron's successor to do.

    I do, however, agree that Osborne's chances of being next leader have receded substantially, even before IDS's contribution to the debate. I suspect Osborne won't stand.

    Osborne might ask to move if Remain wins. Give someone else the problem of delivering on the 2019/20 deficit/surplus.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004
    Javid looks far too short there. I'd have thought there'd be a better case for any of the next three on the list.
  • Where's Ozzie?
    Faisal Islam
    Confirmed: David Gauke will answer UQ

    On important visit to witness a submarine patrol in person...
    Oh he is now running the MOD as well. The absent Chancellor.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Pretty hilarious that IDS is now longer odds than Chuka to be next chancellor
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Anything which makes a Corbyn government worries me.

    Can the Tories please stop playing silly b*ggers? ta.
  • I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    or Osborne/REMAIN decided that blaming IDS/LEAVE was the right move to make over the disability cuts and any u-turn?

    Who started it is the question. Dropping a cabinet colleague in it is par for the course from Osborne.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Afternoon all.

    As I’ve said all along, Osborne will never be PM – perhaps some will start listening now. :lol:
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    If we really have to revisit the Major years what about a John Redwood leadership challenge?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    What nonsense..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    The cut through to the public will be that IDS said "we are not all in this together" and that Osborne tried to cut disability benefits to pay for tax cuts at the 40% threshold.

    Whether this will make one jot of difference to voting or polling is another matter.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I think this is a case of the straw that broke the camel's back. A chink in Osborne's armour appeared and a lot of angst over his autocratic control and short-term opportunism have bubbled over (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors).

    "I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines!" - Mr Furious (Mystery Men, 2003)
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    you have to understand the uses and limitations of their models.

    You clearly don't... or the uses and limitations of models more generally.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    The cut through to the public will be that IDS said "we are not all in this together" and that Osborne tried to cut disability benefits to pay for tax cuts at the 40% threshold.

    Whether this will make one jot of difference to voting or polling is another matter.
    I don't think the voters have believed "we are all in this together" since Osborne cut the 50% rate.

    The appearance of civil war is obviously bad for the Tories, but what matters there is how they patch things up after the referendum.
  • Sam Macrory ‎@sammacrory
    "I don't think there is any hope of him becoming leader"- the Sun's Trevor Kavanagh on Osborne. Big paper for the chancellor to lose..#bbcdp
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Lots of examples of "full confidence" followed by resignation.

    But what examples are there of full confidence followed by everything carrying on as before?

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,387

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
  • Vince the Cable now on BBC R4 WATO.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    Vince the Cable now on BBC R4 WATO.

    There is an old folks home missing a resident...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dafydd Foster Evans
    On this day in 1540: Asked if Thomas Cromwell still retained the full confidence of the King, the Royal spokesman said 'Absolutely'.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004
    Pro_Rata said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
    From time to time. The late 80s might come close, or various moments during the 1970s.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Vince the Cable now on BBC R4 WATO.

    There is an old folks home missing a resident...
    Let me guess....he's not bitter at all, no sirree
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Vince the Cable now on BBC R4 WATO.

    Is he on to explaining how he lost his majority of 12,140, to Tania Mathias? - #innocentface
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    BBC News
    David Cameron's official spokesman has reiterated that Chris Huhne MP retains the full confidence of the Prime Minister
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    Vince the Cable now on BBC R4 WATO.

    There is an old folks home missing a resident...
    I'm sure they'll find you soon. Cable is worth listening to, not least since he mentioned the whole Osborne/IDS split in his memoirs, where he largely seemed to side with IDS.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pro_Rata said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
    The 1920s must have run it close, with the Conservatives having their ructions in 1922, the Liberals going through their Asquith vs Lloyd George phase and Labour being tarred with the Zinoviev letter.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sean O'Neill
    Breaking: Scotland Yard to announce closure of VIP abuse probe Op Midland later today after telling Harvey Proctor he will face no charges
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    And why shouldn't they? For LEAVERS, Brexit is way way more important than any short-term party advantage.

    Indeed LEAVERS could argue they are behaving morally: putting country before party.
    When your opponent is Corbyn you could argue that putting the party first is putting the country first. Anything that makes Prime Minister Corbyn more likely is damaging to the country.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sam Macrory ‎@sammacrory
    "I don't think there is any hope of him becoming leader"- the Sun's Trevor Kavanagh on Osborne. Big paper for the chancellor to lose..#bbcdp

    Depends when the leadership election is. Best hope for Osborne is the for the election not to be held until 2019, get three years of reconciliation after this referendum and if he can actually post a surplus then that will be an incredible achievement that will raise his stocks again.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    If IDS's resignation was to do with the EURef, why has he consistently denied it and sought at every opportunity to put the focus on welfare?

    If he was going to resign over the EU, wouldn't it be better to say something "the PM is a scaremongering, lying little ****" and take the fight to that battle?

    There is an explanation, which refuses to die in the face of all evidence, that his departure is over Europe. I can only believe this to be because (1) he has resigned, and (2) he disagrees with the PM over Europe. But that's ignoring everything else, presumably because those who'd like to explain it in those terms have reason for doing so rather than starting from a blank sheet of paper.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Osborne = Dan Cole.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Lots of examples of "full confidence" followed by resignation.

    But what examples are there of full confidence followed by everything carrying on as before?

    Far more I'm sure, just not as memorable.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,096
    Greetings from Buenos Aires. I am just about to begin a journey half way round the world in 40 days (pace Jules Verne). Next stop the Malvinas ( sorry - Falkland Islands). I can only do this because I will be on a Holland America ship. Will report on any interesting political news I come across.
  • SeanT said:

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    And why shouldn't they? For LEAVERS, Brexit is way way more important than any short-term party advantage.

    Indeed LEAVERS could argue they are behaving morally: putting country before party.
    Looking at the timing, Cameron decided to put country before party and later some of his LEAVErs have decided to follow Cameron's principles.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    dr_spyn said:

    Osborne = Dan Cole.

    LOL...Just like Dan Cole, when the whole house of cards goes down every f##king time it is never his fault, its Big Billy at the back fault for pushing too early.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301

    Pro_Rata said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
    The 1920s must have run it close, with the Conservatives having their ructions in 1922, the Liberals going through their Asquith vs Lloyd George phase and Labour being tarred with the Zinoviev letter.
    Not many Coalition Conservative Cabinet Ministers served under Bonar Law or Baldwin.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".

    Having a Leave PM after a Remain victory is going to be incredibly awkward. Especially if said Leave PM is someone like Boris who will almost certainly "go native" and back Remain once PM.

    As soon as a Leave PM enters Downing St the usual suspects are going to be wanting a rerun of the referendum ASAP while I suspect the PM himself won't be too keen and the country as a whole likely won't be too keen to go through all this all over again.

    How do you seen that being resolved?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    If IDS's resignation was to do with the EURef, why has he consistently denied it and sought at every opportunity to put the focus on welfare?

    If he was going to resign over the EU, wouldn't it be better to say something "the PM is a scaremongering, lying little ****" and take the fight to that battle?

    There is an explanation, which refuses to die in the face of all evidence, that his departure is over Europe. I can only believe this to be because (1) he has resigned, and (2) he disagrees with the PM over Europe. But that's ignoring everything else, presumably because those who'd like to explain it in those terms have reason for doing so rather than starting from a blank sheet of paper.

    I assume that he realised he was going to be shuffled out of Cabinet in the event of a Remain win and his actions are therefore about damaging Osborne and the Remain grouping within the Tory party and limiting their scope for action post Referendum.

    Certainly if you look at the actual PIP reform measurements that he has allegedly died in a ditch over, they were the result of an independent review and are relatively uncontroversial compared to changes that he has already implemented.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35861447

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    dr_spyn said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
    The 1920s must have run it close, with the Conservatives having their ructions in 1922, the Liberals going through their Asquith vs Lloyd George phase and Labour being tarred with the Zinoviev letter.
    Not many Coalition Conservative Cabinet Ministers served under Bonar Law or Baldwin.
    There are parallels from that time to now, it must be said. One of the most senior Conservatives of the time was Lord Curzon, of whom it was said:

    "My name is George Nathaniel Curzon,
    I am a most superior person.
    My cheeks are pink, my hair is sleek,
    I dine at Blenheim once a week."

    Sound at all familiar?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301

    dr_spyn said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Alistair said:

    I'm steadily increasing my red number against "George Osborne next Conservative leader" on Betfair.

    I tried to lay him a few days ago @ 5.5 (when is best back option was 4.5) but didn't get a nibble and his price moved well upwards since then.
    He's still way too short on Betfair. I wouldn't back him below 25/1 now.
    I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDS vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance.

    Honestly, has domestic politics ever seen so much across the board dysfunction?
    The 1920s must have run it close, with the Conservatives having their ructions in 1922, the Liberals going through their Asquith vs Lloyd George phase and Labour being tarred with the Zinoviev letter.
    Not many Coalition Conservative Cabinet Ministers served under Bonar Law or Baldwin.
    There are parallels from that time to now, it must be said. One of the most senior Conservatives of the time was Lord Curzon, of whom it was said:

    "My name is George Nathaniel Curzon,
    I am a most superior person.
    My cheeks are pink, my hair is sleek,
    I dine at Blenheim once a week."

    Sound at all familiar?
    Wasn't it Birkenhead who dubbed the Conservatives under Baldwin as the Government of the Second xi.?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2016
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    So you dropped 'The Spawn of Allah' then?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    Everything is drama in the political world, but the fact that:

    * A senior Cabinet Minister and former party leader says the Budget is unfair and the alleged fundamental theme of the Government is not being followed
    * The Budget now has a large hole and there are no plans to address it before the autumn
    * Rival factions are putting contradictory statements to the press

    adds up to a serious meltdown. The immediate task for DC and GOP is to steady the ship.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    JonathanD said:

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    If IDS's resignation was to do with the EURef, why has he consistently denied it and sought at every opportunity to put the focus on welfare?

    If he was going to resign over the EU, wouldn't it be better to say something "the PM is a scaremongering, lying little ****" and take the fight to that battle?

    There is an explanation, which refuses to die in the face of all evidence, that his departure is over Europe. I can only believe this to be because (1) he has resigned, and (2) he disagrees with the PM over Europe. But that's ignoring everything else, presumably because those who'd like to explain it in those terms have reason for doing so rather than starting from a blank sheet of paper.

    I assume that he realised he was going to be shuffled out of Cabinet in the event of a Remain win and his actions are therefore about damaging Osborne and the Remain grouping within the Tory party and limiting their scope for action post Referendum.

    Certainly if you look at the actual PIP reform measurements that he has allegedly died in a ditch over, they were the result of an independent review and are relatively uncontroversial compared to changes that he has already implemented.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35861447


    So why was Osborne looking at reversing them and blaming IDS for them?

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    And to think Tissue Price tipped him as a dead barely two months ago!

    Well, anything over 6/4 was the tip :-) But definitely not my finest call. He's brought it on himself, though one now suspects a strike against him would have come anyway even if the Budget had been completely bland.

    As Faisal Islam shrewdly noted on Twitter this morning, he's fallen into the traps he himself set for Ed Balls (the surplus target and the welfare cap).
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    https://twitter.com/KillerReads/status/711877691612520448

    Reminds me of Poldark

    Does it have Poldark in it??




    Poldark?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    https://twitter.com/KillerReads/status/711877691612520448

    Awesome cover – & the ‘from the author of the No.1 bestselling Ice Twins' adds a nice touch.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited March 2016

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    The cut through to the public will be that IDS said "we are not all in this together" and that Osborne tried to cut disability benefits to pay for tax cuts at the 40% threshold.

    Whether this will make one jot of difference to voting or polling is another matter.
    I don't think the voters have believed "we are all in this together" since Osborne cut the 50% rate.
    That was a big unforced error.

    If ever there was a policy to kick into your second term, it was that.

    IIRC, at the time it was some budget trade-off where George got something that he didn't actually want because the LD's didn't want him to have it.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,387
    edited March 2016

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    My previous post amended to suggest the possible limitations of a healer:

    "I am, of course, looking forward to your next 'anything could happen in politics at the moment' thread arguing that GE2020 will be IDSJohn Major vs EdM vs Ming Campbell vs Kilroy-Silk and suggesting the best odds for this quadruple chance."
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    JonathanD said:

    Certainly if you look at the actual PIP reform measurements that he has allegedly died in a ditch over, they were the result of an independent review and are relatively uncontroversial compared to changes that he has already implemented.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35861447

    For once, that's a good clear article from the BBC.

    The most striking thing is the chart showing how the forecast cost of PIP has risen dramatically - an overspend of several billion a year compared with the original expectation. That overspend obviously has a significant impact on the Treasury's deficit-reduction plans.

    Given that IDS was responsible for the department which has dumped that overspend on to Osborne, I wonder how much of this is IDS jumping before he was pushed?

    Clearly now the top priority at DWP must be the implementation of Universal Credit and the other welfare reforms which IDS (to his great credit) initiated. I'm a little concerned that Stephen Crabb doesn't have the experience and clout to oversee such a huge departmental organisation and budget.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,999
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    (Snip)

    Congrats. Hope it's as successful as the last one. Are you going to need to get a bigger hat? :)

    I'm trying to place the piccie: is it somewhere around St Just / Bottalack or St Agnes?

    A spectacular stretch of coast.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:

    Electoral Commission
    You’ve voted for #BoatyMcBoatface, but are you
    registered to #VoteyMcVoteface in the May elections? Do it online- https://t.co/d4IvMklXaT
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Patrick Kidd
    People sneering at Gauke doing budget UQ instead of Osborne seem to have forgotten he was Tax Personality of the Year 2011 (ht @GrantTucker)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    Patrick Kidd
    People sneering at Gauke doing budget UQ instead of Osborne seem to have forgotten he was Tax Personality of the Year 2011 (ht @GrantTucker)

    Not sure that is a symbol of quality...

    Tax Personality of the Year 2016
    Margaret Hodge MP
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    Good cover. The red hat echoing the red sky is a particularly good touch.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004
    JonathanD said:

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    If IDS's resignation was to do with the EURef, why has he consistently denied it and sought at every opportunity to put the focus on welfare?

    If he was going to resign over the EU, wouldn't it be better to say something "the PM is a scaremongering, lying little ****" and take the fight to that battle?

    There is an explanation, which refuses to die in the face of all evidence, that his departure is over Europe. I can only believe this to be because (1) he has resigned, and (2) he disagrees with the PM over Europe. But that's ignoring everything else, presumably because those who'd like to explain it in those terms have reason for doing so rather than starting from a blank sheet of paper.

    I assume that he realised he was going to be shuffled out of Cabinet in the event of a Remain win and his actions are therefore about damaging Osborne and the Remain grouping within the Tory party and limiting their scope for action post Referendum.

    Certainly if you look at the actual PIP reform measurements that he has allegedly died in a ditch over, they were the result of an independent review and are relatively uncontroversial compared to changes that he has already implemented.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35861447

    But again, who actually knows the details of a reshuffle? If anything, being one of the few Brexiters in the cabinet, in a party were 2/3rds of members are probably Leave, gives him a very strong position to hold on to his post.

    I agree that the individual measures were not especially controversial (indeed, IDS said as much in his resignation letter), but his departure was as much about Osborne overstepping his remit as anything.
  • The receding straight path towards a brick built industrial building in the distance is very reminiscent of that photo of the rail lines into Auschwitz. A little boy is heading to the gas ovens and chimneys.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    I'm not the most cynical person when it comes to IDS's resignation but leave will do everything they can to win the referendum, even if it means sabotaging their own party establishment.
    If IDS's resignation was to do with the EURef, why has he consistently denied it and sought at every opportunity to put the focus on welfare?

    If he was going to resign over the EU, wouldn't it be better to say something "the PM is a scaremongering, lying little ****" and take the fight to that battle?

    There is an explanation, which refuses to die in the face of all evidence, that his departure is over Europe. I can only believe this to be because (1) he has resigned, and (2) he disagrees with the PM over Europe. But that's ignoring everything else, presumably because those who'd like to explain it in those terms have reason for doing so rather than starting from a blank sheet of paper.

    I assume that he realised he was going to be shuffled out of Cabinet in the event of a Remain win and his actions are therefore about damaging Osborne and the Remain grouping within the Tory party and limiting their scope for action post Referendum.

    Certainly if you look at the actual PIP reform measurements that he has allegedly died in a ditch over, they were the result of an independent review and are relatively uncontroversial compared to changes that he has already implemented.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35861447


    So why was Osborne looking at reversing them and blaming IDS for them?

    The modification of PIP is due to the poor implementation and design of the points system in the first place, eg as the BBC article states one off expenses that were paid for by other bodies allowing an ongoing DWP payout. (This is my understanding although I'd be interested in knowing if it isn't correct). So in that sense the problem was IDS's fault

    The statements on Friday indicated the changes were going to be kicked into the long grass probably because with the EU ref coming up, government wanted to be as uncontroversial as possible.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,790

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    Everything is drama in the political world, but the fact that:

    * A senior Cabinet Minister and former party leader says the Budget is unfair and the alleged fundamental theme of the Government is not being followed
    * The Budget now has a large hole and there are no plans to address it before the autumn
    * Rival factions are putting contradictory statements to the press

    adds up to a serious meltdown. The immediate task for DC and GOP is to steady the ship.

    What IDS said explicitly yesterday was that GO is not interested in anyone who does not vote Conservative. That's most of the country.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".

    Having a Leave PM after a Remain victory is going to be incredibly awkward. Especially if said Leave PM is someone like Boris who will almost certainly "go native" and back Remain once PM.

    As soon as a Leave PM enters Downing St the usual suspects are going to be wanting a rerun of the referendum ASAP while I suspect the PM himself won't be too keen and the country as a whole likely won't be too keen to go through all this all over again.

    How do you seen that being resolved?
    Exactly the way the Nats are resolving it. And for the same reasons.
    I'm not sure the reasons are the remotely same as with the Nats.

    The Nats held a referendum where their national [Scottish] government was backing Yes/Leave but the nation backed No/Remain anyway against the government's wishes. Since then the economic model the government based its case on (especially oil) has gone sour. There is little reason to suspect another referendum will have any different a result.

    If Leave lose it will be after a referendum where the full force of British government has been backing Remain/No but the new Prime Minister wants Leave/Yes. A new referendum therefore would be held under new circumstances as the British government/state would either have to be backing Leave rather than Remain under the PM's instructions or at best neutral. Project Fear would be 180 degrees reversed if the government is backing Leave and so there's every reason to think a new referendum would have a different result.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,790
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.

    If Remain wins, IDS has basically given Cameron carte blanche for such a Kristellnacht. If leave wins there is now no way on earth that Cameron can stay on.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.
    Cameron's always had a fondness for humiliating his enemies. Remember him wanting Salmond bagged stuffed and on his wall after the ScotRef. It's in the nature of the man.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The receding straight path towards a brick built industrial building in the distance is very reminiscent of that photo of the rail lines into Auschwitz. A little boy is heading to the gas ovens and chimneys.

    Golly, you might be right, but I hope the average punter doesn't make the same association.

    It is meant to be a doomy and foreboding cover, tho, clearly. As that's what the book is. A slow build-up of menace and fear.
    It's doomy and foreboding. It's clearly Cornwall....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,790

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".

    Having a Leave PM after a Remain victory is going to be incredibly awkward. Especially if said Leave PM is someone like Boris who will almost certainly "go native" and back Remain once PM.

    As soon as a Leave PM enters Downing St the usual suspects are going to be wanting a rerun of the referendum ASAP while I suspect the PM himself won't be too keen and the country as a whole likely won't be too keen to go through all this all over again.

    How do you seen that being resolved?
    Exactly the way the Nats are resolving it. And for the same reasons.
    I'm not sure the reasons are the remotely same as with the Nats.

    The Nats held a referendum where their national [Scottish] government was backing Yes/Leave but the nation backed No/Remain anyway against the government's wishes. Since then the economic model the government based its case on (especially oil) has gone sour. There is little reason to suspect another referendum will have any different a result.

    If Leave lose it will be after a referendum where the full force of British government has been backing Remain/No but the new Prime Minister wants Leave/Yes. A new referendum therefore would be held under new circumstances as the British government/state would either have to be backing Leave rather than Remain under the PM's instructions or at best neutral. Project Fear would be 180 degrees reversed if the government is backing Leave and so there's every reason to think a new referendum would have a different result.

    The big difference between the EU and Scottish referendums is the level of buy-in from the public. A party promising to put EU membership at the forefront of everything it focuses on may not find that voters are that keen on putting it into power.

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    Everything is drama in the political world, but the fact that:

    * A senior Cabinet Minister and former party leader says the Budget is unfair and the alleged fundamental theme of the Government is not being followed
    * The Budget now has a large hole and there are no plans to address it before the autumn
    * Rival factions are putting contradictory statements to the press

    adds up to a serious meltdown. The immediate task for DC and GOP is to steady the ship.
    If Dave is relying on the GOP to steady anything he is really fucked.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.

    If Remain wins, IDS has basically given Cameron carte blanche for such a Kristellnacht. If leave wins there is now no way on earth that Cameron can stay on.

    With a majority of 6, and the backdrop of this Budget, I don't see how that ends well for Messrs Cameron and Osborne.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    Everything is drama in the political world, but the fact that:

    * A senior Cabinet Minister and former party leader says the Budget is unfair and the alleged fundamental theme of the Government is not being followed
    * The Budget now has a large hole and there are no plans to address it before the autumn
    * Rival factions are putting contradictory statements to the press

    adds up to a serious meltdown. The immediate task for DC and GOP is to steady the ship.

    What IDS said explicitly yesterday was that GO is not interested in anyone who does not vote Conservative. That's most of the country.

    And of course he needs to be interested in them for the referendum.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262

    I may be missing something that's obvious to people with access to Westminster gossip but this whole thing seems way over-blown.

    Everything is drama in the political world, but the fact that:

    * A senior Cabinet Minister and former party leader says the Budget is unfair and the alleged fundamental theme of the Government is not being followed
    * The Budget now has a large hole and there are no plans to address it before the autumn
    * Rival factions are putting contradictory statements to the press

    adds up to a serious meltdown. The immediate task for DC and GOP is to steady the ship.

    What IDS said explicitly yesterday was that GO is not interested in anyone who does not vote Conservative. That's most of the country.

    Half-correct: Osborne isn't interested in anything but political advantage.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.
    I entirely agree.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.
    Cameron's always had a fondness for humiliating his enemies. Remember him wanting Salmond bagged stuffed and on his wall after the ScotRef. It's in the nature of the man.
    It's the ancestral Cameron genes!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited March 2016
    O/T By no means an impartial source, but this article about Hillary's little local difficulty with email is quite interesting:

    http://nypost.com/2016/03/20/will-hillary-get-charged-or-what/

    (And top marks to the picture editor for finding a photo which makes her look like a mafiosa matriarch).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,798
    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    https://twitter.com/KillerReads/status/711877691612520448

    Knowing a bit (albeit not much) about publishing June 16th is a very fast publication date for a book that didn't have a title in February. Your far more successful twin is clearly someone the publisher wants to promote....
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,004

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.

    If Remain wins, IDS has basically given Cameron carte blanche for such a Kristellnacht. [snip]

    I wouldn't fancy being being Graham Brady's postman in that case.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    Labour voters now have an incentive to vote Leave. It's looking very real - one last heave, and both Cameron and Osborne are gone. The guys who gave the Tories the economic and political coherence to win in May 2015. Now both involved in a dance-off.

    That's how badly Cameron and Osborne have played the past couple of months. Their departure is a prize within reach of the coalition of the Leavers and the Haters. And the polls were already on a knife-edge....
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited March 2016

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.

    It really does sound like civil strife, it not quite civil war. A bit like The Troubles in Ulster, without the colourful murals.

    If Remain wins, IDS has basically given Cameron carte blanche for such a Kristellnacht. If leave wins there is now no way on earth that Cameron can stay on.

    REMAIN or LEAVE the party is set to destroy Cameron. He won't have the chance to get in his revenge.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,390
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.
    Mixing metaphorical nachts surely? Though Nacht der langen Messer doesn't roll of the tongue admittedly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896
    eek said:

    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    https://twitter.com/KillerReads/status/711877691612520448

    Knowing a bit (albeit not much) about publishing June 16th is a very fast publication date for a book that didn't have a title in February. Your far more successful twin is clearly someone the publisher wants to promote....
    I am always curious about the legend (allegation?) “The No 1 Bestseller”. It’s seen so often. The book, the author? When, where, in what circumstances?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    One more similarity with the Scots Nats - there is no development that is not perceived by Leavers to be to their advantage.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    eek said:

    SeanT said:

    Enough of this minor political tattle, this is surely the most important news of the day

    https://twitter.com/KillerReads/status/711877691612520448

    Knowing a bit (albeit not much) about publishing June 16th is a very fast publication date for a book that didn't have a title in February. Your far more successful twin is clearly someone the publisher wants to promote....
    Being at the top of the Sunday Times list for the lucrative summer reading season is quite an incentive for them....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,262
    edited March 2016

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    At least my political predictions are better than my rugby predictions. I did soothsay much of this mayhem, though it's come earlier than I expected. I thought the Tories would be thrown into Cameron-hating, Osborne-loathing turmoil after the euroref, not before.

    But the solution remains the same.

    Following the likely narrow REMAIN win, Cameron must quietly step down, let a sceptic take over, probably Boris or Gove? The REMAINIANS will have to be content with their referendum victory and let the LEAVERS control the party. If the REMAINIANS try and "purge" the party of "twats" then there will be outright revolt, the europhiles simply don't have the power to do this, setting aside the innate stupidity of such a venture. Europhiles are more likely to end up being ejected themselves.

    That way civil war is averted, and a now 98% eurosceptic Tory party can go on to win in 2020, promising a new referendum "when the time is right".



    I don't know about all that. I'd say what will be needed post-referendum is a healer to lead the party. The grassroots want to stop Corbyn in 2020 (so we understand) and a uniter who promises that should prevail.
    If Cameron can get his act together then there's no reason he can't stay post-EURef providing that he shunts Osborne out of No 11 and replaces him with a Brexiter. Gove would be my choice as mentioned earlier this month by, *ahem* someone on TotalPolitics.

    The longer this goes on though, the less Cameron appears able (or even willing) to act as that conciliator.
    If the quotes about Cameron wanting a Kristellnacht for the Twats - a final reckoning with the sceptics - are true then the PM has lost a portion of his marbles, and will likely be despatched before he gets the chance to wield his long knife.
    I entirely agree.
    So do I.

    The IDS resignation has acted as a lightning rod to conduct all the frustrations between the Cameroons and the Tory Right that have built up over the last 10 years, particularly the last six, and it ain't pretty.

    I feel like we've gone back to the Summer of 2005.
This discussion has been closed.