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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    Ouch!!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    13 pens against england without a warning.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Given what happened in the early years of this century and what we now know about how banks like Chase Manhattan worked I'd trust my cat to be more honest and competent than any banker.
    True, though without even having met your cat I'd also trust it to be more honest, competent and indeed compassionate than IDS. So that still doesn't settle Ros vs Iain.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    If the boundary changes go through I would expect Stephen Crabb to fight it out with Simon Hart for the residual Pembrokeshire seat.

    And Hart to be the gallant loser in Caerfyrddin a Llanelli? Well, it's possible - Crabb is a Haverfordwest boy after all - but I still think it unlikely. I think we'll have to agree to differ.
    He is a Haverfordwest boy - as am I. We attended the same school - though in my day it was a Boys' Grammar School.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    kle4 said:

    I wonder what the record is of most tries scored vs tries conceded and yet still winning

    8 tries and lost the match!

    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_tries_match_not_won.html?id=1;type=class
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    The language used by Tory ministers against IDS is up there with the language used against Mark Reckless. Really not on.
    I took no pleasure in ............. a hot poker up his arse."
    I sorry @TSE but your signal is breaking up there ....

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I wonder what the record is of most tries scored vs tries conceded and yet still winning

    8 tries and lost the match!

    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_tries_match_not_won.html?id=1;type=class
    I imagine lots of tries conceded though - this match is making me concerned on the idea of losing without conceding any!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    edited March 2016



    Even David Davis hates him and thinks he's disloyal.

    That is quite a compliment on IDS in my book. I'd hate to be in the good books of the uber-sulker!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,942
    edited March 2016



    Even David Davis hates him and thinks he's disloyal.

    He does have something of the shite about him, as Anne Widdecombe might say.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    SeanT said:

    Alistair said:

    Horrible looking head knock for Hartley. Dreadful technique

    Ah. If an England player is badly injured, it is the Englishman's fault.

    If a referee somehow favours a team, it will somehow favour England.

    Are you, perchance, Scotch?

    That said I stand by my prediction, a narrow French victory, but a deserved English win for the Championship.
    It is hilarious seeing the tribalism coming out.

    Owens is the best ref in the world. Hartley has the biggest heart in English Rugby. But of course England are to blame.

    Especially when they win the Grand Slam....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    edited March 2016
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I wonder what the record is of most tries scored vs tries conceded and yet still winning

    8 tries and lost the match!

    http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_tries_match_not_won.html?id=1;type=class
    I imagine lots of tries conceded though - this match is making me concerned on the idea of losing without conceding any!
    That's not one that appears in the pages of stats.

    Going to be a nervy last 10 mins.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    SeanT said:

    Alistair said:

    Horrible looking head knock for Hartley. Dreadful technique

    Ah. If an England player is badly injured, it is the Englishman's fault.

    If a referee somehow favours a team, it will somehow favour England.

    Are you, perchance, Scotch?

    That said I stand by my prediction, a narrow French victory, but a deserved English win for the Championship.
    He went in head first. That is dreadful technique no matter what the nationality. I have a long standing dislike of Owens's reffing and his sytematic bias against France and in favour of Ireland.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    edited March 2016
    Mortimer said:



    Even David Davis hates him and thinks he's disloyal.

    That is quite a compliment on IDS in my book. I'd hate to be in the good books of the uber-sulker!
    David Davis was a Tory whip during Maastricht.

    He got very upset at the tactics of the likes of IDS who were co-ordinating with the Labour whips to defeat the government and let them know.

    David Lightbown, another Whip, who sadly is no longer with us, reportedly called IDS all sorts of name.

    IDS took great pleasure in sacking David Davis as Tory Chairman when he was leader
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    edited March 2016

    Mortimer said:



    Even David Davis hates him and thinks he's a disloyal bell end.

    That is quite a compliment on IDS in my book. I'd hate to be in the good books of the uber-sulker!
    David Davis was a Tory whip during Maastricht.

    He got very upset at the tactics of the likes of IDS who were co-ordinating with the Labour whips to defeat the government and let them know.

    David Lightbown, another Whip, who sadly is no longer with us, reportedly called IDS all sorts of names, that would make you think Lightbown was a Squaddie with Tourette's syndrome.


    IDS took great pleasure in sacking David Davis as Tory Chairman when he was leader
    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.

    Thank goodness France's lineouts have not been great.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Mortimer said:

    Owens is the best ref in the world.

    Only if you dont like the laws of Rugby being applied and instead preffer Nigeball.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Keyboard warriors criticising international rugby player's technique is always worth a laugh - the speed at which these tackles take place is remarkable. An awful lot of what looks like poor technique is misplacement or mistiming.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Oh, that's going to piss off Alistair.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Altmann bit of a party girl.

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/711309260701999104

    Labour then Tory.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    A very decent Grand Slam for England.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    Odd France get the first yellow given all the penalties we've conceded.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    Corbyn led his reply to the budget with "tax cuts for the rich paid for by cuts to disability benefits" and now even IDS has been converted by his rhetoric. After all, that very morning IDS had agreed with George!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Owens is the best ref in the world.

    Only if you dont like the laws of Rugby being applied and instead preffer Nigeball.
    Rubbish - he judges decisions at the speed they ought to be, not the clinical TMO slow mo technicalities.

    It is a sport not a science. He is in charge, not the TMO. Most refs defer too much.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    Grand Slam England!!!!!
  • kle4 said:

    Odd France get the first yellow given all the penalties we've conceded.

    Nigel Owens is the finest ref in the world.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    The only fraud round here is Cameron trying to pass off his "deal" as enabling the UK to fundamentally change its relationship with the EU.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/711305417721290752
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Mortimer said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Owens is the best ref in the world.

    Only if you dont like the laws of Rugby being applied and instead preffer Nigeball.
    Rubbish - he judges decisions at the speed they ought to be, not the clinical TMO slow mo technicalities.

    It is a sport not a science. He is in charge, not the TMO. Most refs defer too much.
    Watch Ireland-France 2009 and come back to me on how good he is.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Alistair said:

    A very decent Grand Slam for England.

    It is - I'm a Wales supporter but have been mightily impressed with this new England set up.
  • Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT: the rogerdamus of rugby!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    kle4 said:

    Odd France get the first yellow given all the penalties we've conceded.

    Dont question the Nigel is best ref in the world group think. People get angry when you point out Owens errors.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.
    This is the last I'm going to say on this as we're going around in circles. I honestly don't know enough about the disability cuts to make a judgement either way. I suspect over the years that disability payments have gone to more and more people who probably shouldn't have had them. But then I bet the government has made the easy cuts already and these latest cuts are getting close to hurting those who genuinely need the assistance.

    However, what has really angered me is the tax cuts Osborne has made for the rich. We cannot afford these give-aways. How can you claim that "we're all in this together" when you're cutting taxes for the higher earners yet make such a big deal about having to find savings in an area so sensitive as disability assistance?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    MP_SE said:

    The only fraud round here is Cameron trying to pass off his "deal" as enabling the UK to fundamentally change its relationship with the EU.

    htts://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/711305417721290752

    Always room for more than one fraud.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?

    Close call, but winning the World Cup in Australia?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.

    Thank goodness France's lineouts have not been great.
    Oh, come on, Mr.4, the all in this together schtick didn't last the first few months of Cameron's premiership. Like the Big Society is was something he said when it suited him and forgot about soon after. Cameron is forever coming out with fine sounding words, it is what he does that one needs to watch. The words and deeds seldom seem to match up.

    Osborne is just Brown MkII but perhaps not quite as obviously bonkers.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Hartley looked in real trouble. Hope he is ok, and recovers quickly.
  • Sandpit said:

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?

    Close call, but winning the World Cup in Australia?
    Nah, cause they point out they've won the world cup twice in the UK.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    SeanT said:

    SeanT: the rogerdamus of rugby!

    I am a TOTAL BLOODY moron at rugby predictions.

    But: YAYYYYYYYYY

    This is a fantastically talented England side. Great great potential.
    Phew - and Hartley is up and laughing!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?

    Close call, but winning the World Cup in Australia?
    World Cup in Australia, the home of sore losers, is clearly far sweeter.

    Edit: I rate the England win vs Aus in the 2007 World Cup my favourite England win as the cheating Aus scrum was annihilated in a very satisfying manner.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,942
    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    Good news on Hartley, he's sitting up and talking in the dressing room.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?

    Close call, but winning the World Cup in Australia?
    World Cup in Australia, the home of sore losers, is clearly far sweeter.
    When we'd won the Ashes in Australia 2010-11 it was hilarious to see half-empty stadia; when losing Australians decided they didn't really like cricket after all....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.
    This is the last I'm going to say on this as we're going around in circles. I honestly don't know enough about the disability cuts to make a judgement either way. I suspect over the years that disability payments have gone to more and more people who probably shouldn't have had them. But then I bet the government has made the easy cuts already and these latest cuts are getting close to hurting those who genuinely need the assistance.

    However, what has really angered me is the tax cuts Osborne has made for the rich. We cannot afford these give-aways. How can you claim that "we're all in this together" when you're cutting taxes for the higher earners yet make such a big deal about having to find savings in an area so sensitive as disability assistance?
    I don't think we're going in circles - I never claimed IDS saying the budget undermined the 'we're in this together' line was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that, right or wrong, his criticisms of the budget are close to Labour attack lines (they have for years said 'all in this together' was not being lived up to and the rich were benefiting at the expense of the poor). Not identical, and he is not literally becoming a Corbynista of course. But seeing him close to their reasoning - even if only in this highly specific scenario - is amusing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417

    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
    If we can survive outside the Euro, we can survive outside the EU.

    Believe in BRITAIN!

    Be LEAVE!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    kle4 said:

    IDS is on the Marr show tomorrow, this could be a barn burner

    I rarely rise early enough to catch Marr, but I am curious what angle he will take - give IDS plenty of time to rattle through all his dissatisfactions, or really press him on why now, dissect how much it is principle etc.
    What do you think.....
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sandpit said:

    Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

    Is there anything sweeter than winning the Grand Slam in Paris?

    Close call, but winning the World Cup in Australia?
    Nah, losing to the Aussies is Ok, not nice but OK. Beating the Frogs is the Acme of rugby, beating them in Paris just adds to the pleasure.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.
    This is the last I'm going to say on this as we're going around in circles. I honestly don't know enough about the disability cuts to make a judgement either way. I suspect over the years that disability payments have gone to more and more people who probably shouldn't have had them. But then I bet the government has made the easy cuts already and these latest cuts are getting close to hurting those who genuinely need the assistance.

    However, what has really angered me is the tax cuts Osborne has made for the rich. We cannot afford these give-aways. How can you claim that "we're all in this together" when you're cutting taxes for the higher earners yet make such a big deal about having to find savings in an area so sensitive as disability assistance?
    I don't think we're going in circles - I never claimed IDS saying the budget undermined the 'we're in this together' line was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that, right or wrong, his criticisms of the budget are close to Labour attack lines (they have for years said 'all in this together' was not being lived up to and the rich were benefiting at the expense of the poor). Not identical, and he is not literally becoming a Corbynista of course. But seeing him close to their reasoning - even if only in this highly specific scenario - is amusing.
    As I've got older I've learnt to not be tribal - especially about politics. If IDS's lines appear to mirror the messages of Miliband and Balls then that might, just might, be because they had a point after all.
  • Is always nice to beat a nation of collaborators at their place.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I watched F1 qualifying this morning.

    If there was any area of F1 that doesn't need messing with, it's qualifying. It's thrilling and comes down to the last driver in Q3 when the time runs out.

    They messed with it and it's a disaster. With 3 minutes to go in Q3 there were no cars on the track, and that was that.

    What were they thinking?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.

    Thank goodness France's lineouts have not been great.
    Oh, come on, Mr.4, the all in this together schtick didn't last the first few months of Cameron's premiership. Like the Big Society is was something he said when it suited him and forgot about soon after. Cameron is forever coming out with fine sounding words, it is what he does that one needs to watch. The words and deeds seldom seem to match up.

    Osborne is just Brown MkII but perhaps not quite as obviously bonkers.
    As I clarified to tlg86, I'm not analysing whether IDS was right to suggest 'all in this together' is nonsense, or has even been pushed as a line lately. It may well be the case he was right - certainly in this instance even more people than usual thought so. I was just interjecting to point out that his resignation reasons did include ones which are close to standard Labour accusations, again, right or wrong though those accusations may be. That's funny to me, and so labeling him as a Corbynista is also amusing to be, if not many others apparently.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    edited March 2016

    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
    Haha, nice try.

    Maastricht, the treaty which, if it had been rejected in the HofC, would have not been followed by the introduction of the european currency. And might well have slowed down the ridiculous european project.

    The rebels didn't want us involved in the sodding social chapter, they didn't want the sodding treaty.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    So Dave has gone all Flashman on IDS. Is that really a shock?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.
    This is the last I'm going to say on this as we're going around in circles. I honestly don't know enough about the disance?
    I don't think we're going in circles - I never claimed IDS saying the budget undermined the 'we're in this together' line was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that, right or wrong, his criticisms of the budget are close to Labour attack lines (they have for years said 'all in this together' was not being lived up to and the rich were benefiting at the expense of the poor). Not identical, and he is not literally becoming a Corbynista of course. But seeing him close to their reasoning - even if only in this highly specific scenario - is amusing.
    As I've got older I've learnt to not be tribal - especially about politics. If IDS's lines appear to mirror the messages of Miliband and Balls then that might, just might, be because they had a point after all.
    It may be so - you're looking at someone who defended Ed M and thought he would win, voted LD in a Tory seat but did want Cameron to win in 2015, so I'm confident I'm not tribal either. Labour, even Corbyn Labour, can and will come up with good ideas. The reason his lines mirroring Labour messages to some extent is so funny to me is precisely because it's the sort of thing which drives the truly tribal nuts.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
    Haha, nice try.

    Maastricht, the treaty which, if it had been rejected in the HofC, would have not ushered in the european currency. And might well have slowed down the ridiculous european project.

    The rebels didn't want us involved in the sodding social chapter, they didn't want the sodding treaty.
    The Maastricht rebels voted with Labour to sign us up to Social Chapter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    Tim_B said:

    I watched F1 qualifying this morning.

    If there was any area of F1 that doesn't need messing with, it's qualifying. It's thrilling and comes down to the last driver in Q3 when the time runs out.

    They messed with it and it's a disaster. With 3 minutes to go in Q3 there were no cars on the track, and that was that.

    What were they thinking?

    You'll be pleased to hear that the teams and organisers are meeting in a couple of hours to work out how they managed to screw up the one bit that worked well what they are going to do for the next race.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
    Haha, nice try.

    Maastricht, the treaty which, if it had been rejected in the HofC, would have not ushered in the european currency. And might well have slowed down the ridiculous european project.

    The rebels didn't want us involved in the sodding social chapter, they didn't want the sodding treaty.
    The Maastricht rebels voted with Labour to sign us up to Social Chapter.
    People vote for and oppose motions for very different reasons.

    cf the SNP.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865

    kle4 said:

    IDS is on the Marr show tomorrow, this could be a barn burner

    I rarely rise early enough to catch Marr, but I am curious what angle he will take - give IDS plenty of time to rattle through all his dissatisfactions, or really press him on why now, dissect how much it is principle etc.
    What do you think.....
    I've no idea - does he want to try to nail a a Tory leaver or maximise government embarrassment?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    What time does the F1 race actually start?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.

    Thank goodness France's lineouts have not been great.
    Oh, come on, Mr.4, the all in this together schtick didn't last the first few months of Cameron's premiership. Like the Big Society is was something he said when it suited him and forgot about soon after. Cameron is forever coming out with fine sounding words, it is what he does that one needs to watch. The words and deeds seldom seem to match up.

    Osborne is just Brown MkII but perhaps not quite as obviously bonkers.
    As I clarified to tlg86, I'm not analysing whether IDS was right to suggest 'all in this together' is nonsense, or has even been pushed as a line lately. It may well be the case he was right - certainly in this instance even more people than usual thought so. I was just interjecting to point out that his resignation reasons did include ones which are close to standard Labour accusations, again, right or wrong though those accusations may be. That's funny to me, and so labeling him as a Corbynista is also amusing to be, if not many others apparently.
    Fair go. I'll leave it there rather than continue my attack on Cameron and his sidekick (though as to do so would undoubtedly wind up TSE, I was tempted).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    edited March 2016

    What time does the F1 race actually start?

    05:00GMT. 6h45' from now.

    Suppose some shut-eye might be a good idea. Laters.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Sandpit said:

    What time does the F1 race actually start?

    05:00GMT. 6h45' from now.
    I'm going to be going all night then, as the UFC fight is schedule to finished then.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417

    Is always nice to beat a nation of collaborators at their place.

    Aren't the REMAINERS collaborators in the EU project?

    Believe in BRITAIN!

    Be LEAVE!
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    What time does the F1 race actually start?

    5am GMT, I believe.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865

    So Dave has gone all Flashman on IDS. Is that really a shock?

    We're supposed to be angry at politicians acting like politicians, and angry people acting angry a lot in this referendum and Tory civil war period.

    Though it provided relief from what had becomee months of entertaining but samey Labour moping and internal battling, which is good.

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.

    Thank goodness France's lineouts have not been great.
    Oh, come on, Mr.4, the all in this together schtick didn't last the first few months of Cameron's premiership. Like the Big Society is was something he said when it suited him and forgot about soon after. Cameron is forever coming out with fine sounding words, it is what he does that one needs to watch. The words and deeds seldom seem to match up.

    Osborne is just Brown MkII but perhaps not quite as obviously bonkers.
    As I clar
    Fair go. I'll leave it there rather than continue my attack on Cameron and his sidekick
    The floor's yours if that's what you want - there's plenty of material for that at present!

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Sandpit said:

    Tim_B said:

    I watched F1 qualifying this morning.

    If there was any area of F1 that doesn't need messing with, it's qualifying. It's thrilling and comes down to the last driver in Q3 when the time runs out.

    They messed with it and it's a disaster. With 3 minutes to go in Q3 there were no cars on the track, and that was that.

    What were they thinking?

    You'll be pleased to hear that the teams and organisers are meeting in a couple of hours to work out how they managed to screw up the one bit that worked well what they are going to do for the next race.
    Go back to last year's rules.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Unless Im badly mistaken every MP promoted in the mini reshuffle is a Remain supporter.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IDS served our country in the armed forces. Ros Altman worked for Chase Manhattan. I know who I trust more.
    Who knows more about how to run a finance based dept though?
    Given what happened in 2008 I'd go for IDS.
    Corbynism is breaking out all over! First IDS and now you...
    Oh, so someone questions what the government is doing and that makes them a Corbynista.
    No, but saying that the cuts are ideological and not in the national interest, and implying the PM is not actually/currently committed to us all being in this together, is very close to the Labour attack lines of the past 6 years. Caveats he made take him away from literally saying the same thing as Corbyn, but it's close enough from a Cabinet minister to suggest in jest.
    This is the last I'm going to say on this as we're going around in circles. I honestly don't know enough about the disance?
    I don't think we're going in circles - I never claimed IDS saying the budget undermined the 'we're in this together' line was wrong. I'm merely pointing out that, right or wrong, his criticisms of the budget are close to Labour attack lines (they have for years said 'all in this together' was not being lived up to and the rich were benefiting at the expense of the poor). Not identical, and he is not literally becoming a Corbynista of course. But seeing him close to their reasoning - even if only in this highly specific scenario - is amusing.
    As I've got older I've learnt to not be tribal - especially about politics. If IDS's lines appear to mirror the messages of Miliband and Balls then that might, just might, be because they had a point after all.
    It may be so - you're looking at someone who defended Ed M and thought he would win, voted LD in a Tory seat but did want Cameron to win in 2015, so I'm confident I'm not tribal either. Labour, even Corbyn Labour, can and will come up with good ideas. The reason his lines mirroring Labour messages to some extent is so funny to me is precisely because it's the sort of thing which drives the truly tribal nuts.
    I think the problem is that you're managing to wind up the wrong people! The Cameroons will see you comparing IDS to Corbyn and think that's a win. That is, Corbyn is nuts therefore IDS is too.
  • This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    edited March 2016
    tlg86 said:


    I think the problem is that you're managing to wind up the wrong people! The Cameroons will see you comparing IDS to Corbyn and think that's a win. That is, Corbyn is nuts therefore IDS is too.

    Well maybe - but I'll be honest, I don't really mind who gets wound up sometimes ;)

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Given that disclosure, I hope there's no attempt to be measured or subtle in critique during the rest, otherwise it will be most disappointing.

    Good night all.

    Go England (in Rugby - otherwise I'm a go UK man first)
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    I am a Tory and was big fan of JM in as much as he was able to connect with the public more than any Tory leader since.

    But the Maastricht rebels were right.

    Maastricht - the treaty which gave us an opt out from the Euro and the social chapter. Does voting against that seem like something worth ushering in the Blair era for?
    Haha, nice try.

    Maastricht, the treaty which, if it had been rejected in the HofC, would have not been followed by the introduction of the european currency. And might well have slowed down the ridiculous european project.

    The rebels didn't want us involved in the sodding social chapter, they didn't want the sodding treaty.
    On reflection it was Maastrict that got us in a situation where there was an inner Euro core that would eventually come close together and outvote us in a qualified majority on its own. Sady the Euro opt out wasn't enough to protect UKs position in EU.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Yes, Mr. Eagles, and your point is what exactly?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Have you ever heard him speak about social justice TSE? Wonderful example of a politician finding his calling.

    He went through the roof in my estimation I heard him talk at length and with intensity about it - especially with the humility that overthrow brought.
  • This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Yes, Mr. Eagles, and your point is what exactly?
    When you see the rest of the thread in the morning, you'll see the point.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Unless Im badly mistaken every MP promoted in the mini reshuffle is a Remain supporter.

    What an extraordinary co-incidence.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Cameron's losing it. His outbursts of rage and hate are similar to Gordon Brown's.
  • Mortimer said:

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Have you ever heard him speak about social justice TSE? Wonderful example of a politician finding his calling.

    He went through the roof in my estimation I heard him talk at length and with intensity about it - especially with the humility that overthrow brought.
    I have, saw him at a fringe event, and he's very passionate about that.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Funny how quiet you've been concerning IDS's supposed misdemeanors all these years. The Quiet Man has finally shouted his distain out loud, and you can't stand it.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    So Dave has gone all Flashman on IDS. Is that really a shock?

    Not really, but it is another piece of evidence of Cameron's dreadful lack of leadership skills.

    He never would have got through RCB and without daddy's money he would probably now be a rather poor under-manager at somewhere like Tesco.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    Mortimer said:

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Have you ever heard him speak about social justice TSE? Wonderful example of a politician finding his calling.

    He went through the roof in my estimation I heard him talk at length and with intensity about it - especially with the humility that overthrow brought.
    Well said, my sentiment entirely.

    He dedicated over a dozen years of his life to thinking through one of the most difficult subjects in government, and made huge efforts in government reforming the underlying systems. Hopefully his legacy will be a welfare system that properly incentivises work over welfare while looking after those temporarily in need.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2016
    England very nearly screwed up the Grand Slam. Conceding 7 penalties is sub optimal in any game. Some of the decision making was very poor and it was only when France tired in the last 12 mins or so that the match was sewn up,
    Nevertheless credit where its due , but right now I wouldn't think England could beat Australia in Australia, nor the Kiwis. but we will no doubt find out..

    Great result given the ignominy of WC 2015
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,120
    Osborne. like Gordon Brown, is just too intelligent for his own good.

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Cameron's losing it. His outbursts of rage and hate are similar to Gordon Brown's.

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Cameron's losing it. His outbursts of rage and hate are similar to Gordon Brown's.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    I don't usually watch Marr (Sunday is either work or lie-in for me) - tomorrow I will be setting my alarm.

    I didn't like i could be more annoyed with Cameron and Osborne after the Euro-deal farce.

    I now am.

    I am willing the 50 letters to be sent to chairman of the '22. They're ruining the party I love.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    edited March 2016

    MikeK said:

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Funny how quiet you've been concerning IDS's supposed misdemeanors all these years. The Quiet Man has finally shouted his distain out loud, and you can't stand it.
    Nope, I've been very vocal in the past about how I regard IDS as a rebel and party leader.
    Since when did standing up for what you believe in make you a rebel?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    tyson said:

    Osborne. like Gordon Brown, is just too intelligent thick as two short planks for his own good....

    Fixed for you.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Priti Patel supporting Osborne while saying nice things about IDS is making her a promising unifier of the party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,865
    edited March 2016

    MikeK said:

    This is the opening to my morning thread

    Full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Iain Duncan Smith, from his time as Maastricht rebel that did so much to destroy the government of John Major and usher in thirteen years of Labour, to his disastrous stint as Tory leader which saw his leadership range from the dire to the appalling.

    Funny how quiet you've been concerning IDS's supposed misdemeanors all these years. The Quiet Man has finally shouted his distain out loud, and you can't stand it.
    Nope, I've been very vocal in the past about how shite I regard IDS as a rebel and party leader.
    Since when did standing up for what you believe in make you a rebel?
    When it is in opposition to the position of the ruling clique. One can be a justified and principled rebel however. On its own being a rebel doesn't necessarily make one bad, it depends what you are rebelling against and how.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2016
    Sadly the vote for the new Antarctic Ship seems to have been pulled; with "RRS Boaty McBoatface" leading by a country mile. It makes me proud to be British!

    http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/rrs-boaty-mcboatface_uk_56edbec3e4b030d552ef678a?edition=uk
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,120
    Completely O/T- does anyone trust tennis? Between players and gluten free diets, players bulking alarmingly up, players transformational return from injuries, and the complete and utter domination of the game by a few characters over many years so the rest have to pay their bills by fixing, and the complete lack of transparency to any kind of testing.......
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Here comes "the Snake..."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    England very nearly screwed up the Grand Slam. Conceding 7 penalties is sub optimal in any game. Some of the decision making was very poor and it was only when France tired in the last 12 mins or so that the match was sewn up,
    Nevertheless credit where its due , but right now I wouldn't think England could beat Australia in Australia, nor the Kiwis. but we will no doubt find out..

    Great result given the ignominy of WC 2015

    England Penalties...Two words...Dan Cole...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,628
    edited March 2016
    Mortimer said:

    I don't usually watch Marr (Sunday is either work or lie-in for me) - tomorrow I will be setting my alarm.

    I didn't like i could be more annoyed with Cameron and Osborne after the Euro-deal farce.

    I now am.

    I am willing the 50 letters to be sent to chairman of the '22. They're ruining the party I love.

    I would be amazed if there's not a few more letters winging their way to the '22 over the weekend.

    I said a few weeks back that the PM had lost it over the EU 'deal' and could end up facing a ballot before the referendum, the events of the past few days only confirm this line of thinking to me.
This discussion has been closed.