ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
I would expect that at every EU meeting or Minister meeings the press will be quizing EU heads at every opportunity and if they agree with Germany's comments tonight it will be a serious blow to leave
I would expect every single EU minister to say how awful it is to leave the EU
Patrick O'Flynn ✔ @oflynnmep It was bad enough Blair becoming US's Poodle, but Cameron becoming France's Poodle surely underrates Britain's view of its global status.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
Does the South Korean agreement bring it inside the single market for services?
No but I don't think single market in services even removed all trade barriers for member states. South Korea deal does however remove all tariffs on services and remove most non tariff barriers, albeit marginally less than for member state. Not much in it really.
My firm relies very heavily on the single financial passport to sell our services into the EU. A Norway option is great for us. If passporting is removed it would probably be a death knell to our business. (Or, at the very least, require us to open and man a subsidiary inside the EU.)
I imagine you would be one of small handful of losers there and would be dwarfed by all the extra business that could be done by free trade deals elsewhere and better regulation (especially if Eurozone gets trigger happy on single rulebook). And as you say you can always make a subsidiary for that bit of your business.
I wish it were not the case, but I think you are optimistic.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
Why don't they also insist on free blow jobs for all EU visitors and the right to enslave all our first born. FFS, they have lost two wars against us do they not know what we are like when ANGRY!
As a second-born I see merit in that proposal.
As a fifth born, everyone seems to run out of steam before proposing what happens to me and mine in such scenarios.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
I would expect that at every EU meeting or Minister meeings the press will be quizing EU heads at every opportunity and if they agree with Germany's comments tonight it will be a serious blow to leave
I would expect every single EU minister to say how awful it is to leave the EU
I'm actually surprised the French haven't been encouraging us to leave. Although maybe... maybe... maybe... they're trying to reverse psychology us. You know, to pretend they want us in, to actually make us leave.
Patrick O'Flynn ✔ @oflynnmep It was bad enough Blair becoming US's Poodle, but Cameron becoming France's Poodle surely underrates Britain's view of its global status.
Far be it from me to agree with UKIP'ers but today really has been a low point. Cameron getting the French, yes the French, to threaten his own citizens, the people he should be protecting and sticking up for... Like I say, a definite low point.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
Does the South Korean agreement bring it inside the single market for services?
No but I don't think single market in services even removed all trade barriers for member states. South Korea deal does however remove all tariffs on services and remove most non tariff barriers, albeit marginally less than for member state. Not much in it really.
My firm relies very heavily on the single financial passport to sell our services into the EU. A Norway option is great for us. If passporting is removed it would probably be a death knell to our business. (Or, at the very least, require us to open and man a subsidiary inside the EU.)
I imagine you would be one of small handful of losers there and would be dwarfed by all the extra business that could be done by free trade deals elsewhere and better regulation (especially if Eurozone gets trigger happy on single rulebook). And as you say you can always make a subsidiary for that bit of your business.
I wish it were not the case, but I think you are optimistic.
Greater fan loyalty knows no more than a man who drops all his spurs players from his fantasy team in the certain hope that by doing so will ensure they score bundles as a result in the next game... selling Kane should also ensure a hat trick too.
Just one place behind you, you know what's going to happen this weekend.
I'm going to play Augero as triple captain this weekend, and they play Villa
And then Norwich...
I saw the desperate use of the bench boost had been forced upon you.. but for Milner...
Desperate measures for desperate times, I can't finish behind a Spurs fan.
10 game weeks to go... tick tock as someone once said here a few times...
My advice, put a lot on Arsenal to win on Saturday.
I did that during our title charge season, kept on backing our opponents, eventually it paid off.
Did I mention I backed the spanners at 7/2 as a financial hedge to my emotions.... obviously arsenal losing to the team we'd just beaten was an even better recovery.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
ITV are only quoting what Germany has stated today though their reporter did say it was significant
So is Cameron going to stand up and say "I have a piece of paper from the German Chancellor". That did not end well last time for the English PM. Is David Chamberlain Cameron going to announce this?
That known nutcase Bone may actually deliver the coup de grace at the next PMQs.. Is it true Mr Cameron that you have been told by the Germans..... Would Cameron survive?
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
Why don't they also insist on free blow jobs for all EU visitors and the right to enslave all our first born. FFS, they have lost two wars against us do they not know what we are like when ANGRY!
As a second-born I see merit in that proposal.
As a fellow second born I'm always glad we get off so lightly when these threats come up.
it's ridiculous trying to do long term planning when the rules are continually being changed. 'A' day is a long time ago now.
Well that's the point isn't it? Governments don't want people to plan and to save and to be thrifty, etc. They want people to spend, spend, spend. Saving has been discouraged for years and years.
They just want people to spend and to pay their taxes - British people are chased, literally to the grave by HMRC but American supernational tax avoiders like Google and Amazon do whatever the hell they want.
We really need one heck of a shake up in this country,
Osborne and Co are the Corporations friends. That much is clear.
I can why Corbyn appeals to so many. A lot of his ideas are completely crackpot, but in amongst the crazy stuff, are a fair few that make complete sense.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
Something for the weekend Sir? I've been taking a look at the state of the Premier League's Manager "Sack Race" market. Favourite to win the current round is Utd's LVG with best decimal odds of 4.33. After leading his side to four consecutive wins, his early departure appears decidedly unlikely. Next in line comes Villa's Remi Garde who only seems to have been at the club 5 minutes, on offer at 4.5. He is followed by Norwich's Alex Neil priced at 8.0. Surprisingly generously priced, in my view anyway, is fourth-placed Toon's boss Boss Steve McClaren who both Hills and Betfair Sportsbook have available at 9 (i.e. 8/1). On Saturday, Newcastle are at home against Bournemouth who are also struggling somewhat, but nevertheless are on offer at fairly skinny best odds of only 2.88 to win this game. I wonder whether McClaren could possibly survive a defeat by the Cherries? Of course, one is second-guessing how the Chairmen of several football clubs might react to their various problems, but it seems to me that that the 2.88 price against Bournemouth winning is very different when compared with the 9.0 odds against Steve being given his early marching orders. This falls decidedly into the "fun" category of betting and stakes should certainly be limited to a maximum of just a few quid. DYOR.
Back with Paddy Power.
They often pay out early on markets like this.
Eh? Non comprende - in what circumstances would PP conceivably pay out early?
it's ridiculous trying to do long term planning when the rules are continually being changed. 'A' day is a long time ago now.
Well that's the point isn't it? Governments don't want people to plan and to save and to be thrifty, etc. They want people to spend, spend, spend. Saving has been discouraged for years and years.
They just want people to spend and to pay their taxes - British people are chased, literally to the grave by HMRC but American supernational tax avoiders like Google and Amazon do whatever the hell they want.
We really need one heck of a shake up in this country,
Osborne and Co are the Corporations friends. That much is clear.
I can why Corbyn appeals to so many. A lot of his ideas are completely crackpot, but in amongst the crazy stuff, are a fair few that make complete sense.
Corbyn would shake things up wouldn't he?
In an Osborne V Corbyn election I'd be tempted....
The deals that the US signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand - the Trans Pacific Partnership - are incredibly asymetrical. They allow far more goods into Japan, etc. tariff free than vice-versa. Likewise, they require those countries to essentially implement US intellectual property laws, and to keep those laws in lock-step with the US. That is the US using its heft to denude smaller countries of sovereignty, and I think it is incredibly naieve to think we would be able to resist this.
Similarly, the ISDS tribubals - that take place in secret - that are used under NAFTA to prevent (for example) the Quebec government from banning certain types of GM foods, are also a clear infringement of sovereignty imposed by the US, and worse happen in a secrete fashion.
The Swiss-Chinese FTA is another classic example. Very asymetrical in terms. So, Chinese firms can buy 100% of Swiss banks. Swiss banks can only own 49% of Chinese ones. Almost all Chinese goods enter China tariff free. The Swiss get a reduction in tariffs on watches from 12.5% to 7.5% over 10 years.
Something for the weekend Sir? I've been taking a look at the state of the Premier League's Manager "Sack Race" market. Favourite to win the current round is Utd's LVG with best decimal odds of 4.33. After leading his side to four consecutive wins, his early departure appears decidedly unlikely. Next in line comes Villa's Remi Garde who only seems to have been at the club 5 minutes, on offer at 4.5. He is followed by Norwich's Alex Neil priced at 8.0. Surprisingly generously priced, in my view anyway, is fourth-placed Toon's boss Boss Steve McClaren who both Hills and Betfair Sportsbook have available at 9 (i.e. 8/1). On Saturday, Newcastle are at home against Bournemouth who are also struggling somewhat, but nevertheless are on offer at fairly skinny best odds of only 2.88 to win this game. I wonder whether McClaren could possibly survive a defeat by the Cherries? Of course, one is second-guessing how the Chairmen of several football clubs might react to their various problems, but it seems to me that that the 2.88 price against Bournemouth winning is very different when compared with the 9.0 odds against Steve being given his early marching orders. This falls decidedly into the "fun" category of betting and stakes should certainly be limited to a maximum of just a few quid. DYOR.
Back with Paddy Power.
They often pay out early on markets like this.
Eh? Non comprende - in what circumstances would PP conceivably pay out early?
They paid out early on LVG just before christmas. After I'd backed him at 4-7 paying too much attention to twitter rumours !!
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
It would also save us at least 10bn a year, and would allow us control of the spending of the other 8bn. (Why no one focuses on the second point is something that always amazes me.)
Patrick O'Flynn ✔ @oflynnmep It was bad enough Blair becoming US's Poodle, but Cameron becoming France's Poodle surely underrates Britain's view of its global status.
Far be it from me to agree with UKIP'ers but today really has been a low point. Cameron getting the French, yes the French, to threaten his own citizens, the people he should be protecting and sticking up for... Like I say, a definite low point.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
If that were the only possible outcome of Leave and Germany were committed to supporting it I might well vote for it.
But I don't think the smorgasbord of options will cut through with the public.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
If that were the only possible outcome of Leave and Germany were committed to supporting it I might well vote for it.
But I don't think the smorgasbord of options will cut through with the public.
Surely Osbo isn't going to touch pension tax relief or flip the EET system on its head before the referendum?
The second would lead to open revolt in the Tory party. The first might be unpopular enough to cement a lead for Leave...
The problem is who knows - I've got multiple clients panicking about tax relief, falling lifetime allowance, fixed or individual protection (again), annual allowance cuts & stupid proposed taper, tax free cash being threatened - do we take our TFC before the Budget - salary sacrifice being threatened, ISA pensions, timing uncertainty for all of the above. Not to mention micro employers needing to sort out auto enrolment solutions this year and next.
Then we have Labour basically producing a review which wants to reintroduce annuities by default and undo much of pension freedoms.
Business is booming, great I suppose but I'm turning in to Donald Rumsfeld with known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns when it comes to saving for your retirement.
ITS A JOKE - JUST STOP THE BUGGERING ABOUT AND LEAVE IT BE FOR A WHILE.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
If that were the only possible outcome of Leave and Germany were committed to supporting it I might well vote for it.
But I don't think the smorgasbord of options will cut through with the public.
It is available. It would enable us to piggyback on existing EFTA trade deals. It would be simple and not disadvantage British business. It would remove us from the juristiction of the ECJ. It would save us 55 million pounds per day.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
it's ridiculous trying to do long term planning when the rules are continually being changed. 'A' day is a long time ago now.
Well that's the point isn't it? Governments don't want people to plan and to save and to be thrifty, etc. They want people to spend, spend, spend. Saving has been discouraged for years and years.
They just want people to spend and to pay their taxes - British people are chased, literally to the grave by HMRC but American supernational tax avoiders like Google and Amazon do whatever the hell they want.
We really need one heck of a shake up in this country,
Osborne and Co are the Corporations friends. That much is clear.
I can why Corbyn appeals to so many. A lot of his ideas are completely crackpot, but in amongst the crazy stuff, are a fair few that make complete sense.
Corbyn would shake things up wouldn't he?
In an Osborne V Corbyn election I'd be tempted....
He would.
Tory politicians are complacent, and taking us for a ride. I'd hoped for better things after May 2015, but the tax treatment of Google etc, and BTL changes from which the larger and ultimately more damaging landlords were pretty much exempted was too much. Cameron's behaviour over EU negotiations is pitiful.
Am I crazy for thinking now is an outstanding time to be backing Donald Trump?
Trump is going to be the GOP nominee unless something big happens. I like Romney (I'm possibly one of the few that does) but I don't think his intervention is sufficient to stop him. I assume the odds when Trump becomes nom will be tighter than what they are now, so the odds are currently "value"
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Am I crazy for thinking now is an outstanding time to be backing Donald Trump?
Trump is going to be the GOP nominee unless something big happens. I like Romney (I'm possibly one of the few that does) but I don't think his intervention is sufficient to stop him. I assume the odds when Trump becomes nom will be tighter than what they are now, so the odds are currently "value"
Of course I could be massively wrong...
I am getting the feeling that the GOP will do anything to stop Trump becoming nominee and that there will be a time to get out, but I think it is smart bet on Trump for now.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I would compliment you Richard on being the first to give an honest and rational answer. I am just amazed that leavers don't seem to be as clear as you are and they need to come be as honest
Toby Young @toadmeister .@johnmcdonnellMP is in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks the EU will bend to his “reform agenda”. It’s allergic to reform #bbcqt
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
Why don't they also insist on free blow jobs for all EU visitors and the right to enslave all our first born. FFS, they have lost two wars against us do they not know what we are like when ANGRY!
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Governments can hardly change any ofvthe things the voters want then to change. Even if you got rid of the EU they'd still keep butting up against Reality.
The deals that the US signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand - the Trans Pacific Partnership - are incredibly asymetrical. They allow far more goods into Japan, etc. tariff free than vice-versa. Likewise, they require those countries to essentially implement US intellectual property laws, and to keep those laws in lock-step with the US. That is the US using its heft to denude smaller countries of sovereignty, and I think it is incredibly naieve to think we would be able to resist this.
Similarly, the ISDS tribubals - that take place in secret - that are used under NAFTA to prevent (for example) the Quebec government from banning certain types of GM foods, are also a clear infringement of sovereignty imposed by the US, and worse happen in a secrete fashion.
The Swiss-Chinese FTA is another classic example. Very asymetrical in terms. So, Chinese firms can buy 100% of Swiss banks. Swiss banks can only own 49% of Chinese ones. Almost all Chinese goods enter China tariff free. The Swiss get a reduction in tariffs on watches from 12.5% to 7.5% over 10 years.
Do you have source on TPP?
I do think there is extra element there of Pacific nations wanting US defence umbrella vs China, what puts them in weaker position.
I would compliment you Richard on being the first to give an honest and rational answer. I am just amazed that leavers don't seem to be as clear as you are and they need to come be as honest
There are a few of us - Robert Smithson is another - who oppose the EU on practical and philosophical principles and for whom immigration is not a factor that registers at all.
My only exception to this is that I have said on here before that I consider the current migration policy within the EU to be inadvertently racist. It says that an unemployed Frenchman or Italian should have more rights to come to the UK than a highly qualified Indian or Chilean.
Now this again is a philosophical view and not one that in the end changes my view that the EEA is the best option. It is more another example of me realising that my views are in a small minority and unlikely ever to get close to the light of day. One side would attack me for wanting to restrict EU migration and the other would attack me for wanting to increase non EU migration. Neither would accept the fundamental unfairness of the system and the fact it runs counter to the best interests of our country. It is a fight I know I cannot win.
I would compliment you Richard on being the first to give an honest and rational answer. I am just amazed that leavers don't seem to be as clear as you are and they need to come be as honest
There are a few of us - Robert Smithson is another - who oppose the EU on practical and philosophical principles and for whom immigration is not a factor that registers at all.
My only exception to this is that I have said on here before that I consider the current migration policy within the EU to be inadvertently racist. It says that an unemployed Frenchman or Italian should have more rights to come to the UK than a highly qualified Indian or Chilean.
Now this again is a philosophical view and not one that in the end changes my view that the EEA is the best option. It is more another example of me realising that my views are in a small minority and unlikely ever to get close to the light of day. One side would attack me for wanting to restrict EU migration and the other would attack me for wanting to increase non EU migration. Neither would accept the fundamental unfairness of the system and the fact it runs counter to the best interests of our country. It is a fight I know I cannot win.
That's a shame as in some ways I can agree with you
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
Free movement is the very thing I find objectionable about the EU. I couldn't care less about the businesses that depend on cheap labour at the tax payer's expense.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
I suggest scaremongering is entirely accurate. Germany may have a preference but like every other country including the UK they also have to deal with Real Politik. If the UK left and were daft enough to dig in and say absolutely no to EEA membership then there would be a huge amount of wheeling and dealing and a deal would be done which didn't meet either side's absolute objectives but allowed them to save face. The alternative is something the Germans ave absolutely no control over which is trade under the WTO rules. Something that would be the worst result for both sides.
Serious question: does Joe Public (including many intended "Out" voters) know what "Brexit" means? Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people thought it was a cereal brand.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Mr Tyndall, what is the Norway or Iceland option in brief? - TIA.
A free trade area with freedom of movement.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
If that were the only possible outcome of Leave and Germany were committed to supporting it I might well vote for it.
But I don't think the smorgasbord of options will cut through with the public.
I agree with you I would support it as well.
I know, you advocate the Norway solution persuasively.
For me what is key is:
* single market access * free movement of labour (I see this as a benefit, not a problem) * remaining at least loosely connected to the European "project" - I don't think it's wise to detach entirely
The Norway outcome would satisfy all that.
However I don't think it is a likely result of a Leave vote. EEA membership will be hugely controversial in Britain as it won't deal with free movement. It will be decried as "the EU by the back door". There would be the devil's job for Cameron's successor in getting it through Parliament. I don't think Leave will be in any sense smooth, controlled, orderly or predictable. Hence I'd rather stick with the status quo. Still, this German intervention nudges me a tiny bit towards Leave.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
Serious question: does Joe Public (including many intended "Out" voters) know what "Brexit" means? Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people thought it was a cereal brand.
In the same way that many people think innuendo is Italian for suppository
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
I suggest scaremongering is entirely accurate. Germany may have a preference but like every other country including the UK they also have to deal with Real Politik. If the UK left and were daft enough to dig in and say absolutely no to EEA membership then there would be a huge amount of wheeling and dealing and a deal would be done which didn't meet either side's absolute objectives but allowed them to save face. The alternative is something the Germans ave absolutely no control over which is trade under the WTO rules. Something that would be the worst result for both sides.
Its people like you who are not prepared to live in the real world but are intent on perpetuating their fantasies. Viewcode makes perfectly respectable points.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
Something for the weekend Sir? I've been taking a look at the state of the Premier League's Manager "Sack Race" market. Favourite to win the current round is Utd's LVG with best decimal odds of 4.33. After leading his side to four consecutive wins, his early departure appears decidedly unlikely. Next in line comes Villa's Remi Garde who only seems to have been at the club 5 minutes, on offer at 4.5. He is followed by Norwich's Alex Neil priced at 8.0. Surprisingly generously priced, in my view anyway, is fourth-placed Toon's boss Boss Steve McClaren who both Hills and Betfair Sportsbook have available at 9 (i.e. 8/1). On Saturday, Newcastle are at home against Bournemouth who are also struggling somewhat, but nevertheless are on offer at fairly skinny best odds of only 2.88 to win this game. I wonder whether McClaren could possibly survive a defeat by the Cherries? Of course, one is second-guessing how the Chairmen of several football clubs might react to their various problems, but it seems to me that that the 2.88 price against Bournemouth winning is very different when compared with the 9.0 odds against Steve being given his early marching orders. This falls decidedly into the "fun" category of betting and stakes should certainly be limited to a maximum of just a few quid. DYOR.
Back with Paddy Power.
They often pay out early on markets like this.
Eh? Non comprende - in what circumstances would PP conceivably pay out early?
Paddy Power frequently pay out early. They did so for the 2008 Ireland referendum and (if memory serves) the Greece 2015 referendum. Interestingly, I think they paid out on the wrong outcome...
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
Don't worry, if we Leave, Europe will be left with far more problems than us (2014 population + x-million invaders) - and, due to its basic ineptitude will sink further into its rather sh*t-laden mire.
I would compliment you Richard on being the first to give an honest and rational answer. I am just amazed that leavers don't seem to be as clear as you are and they need to come be as honest
There are a few of us - Robert Smithson is another - who oppose the EU on practical and philosophical principles and for whom immigration is not a factor that registers at all.
My only exception to this is that I have said on here before that I consider the current migration policy within the EU to be inadvertently racist. It says that an unemployed Frenchman or Italian should have more rights to come to the UK than a highly qualified Indian or Chilean.
Now this again is a philosophical view and not one that in the end changes my view that the EEA is the best option. It is more another example of me realising that my views are in a small minority and unlikely ever to get close to the light of day. One side would attack me for wanting to restrict EU migration and the other would attack me for wanting to increase non EU migration. Neither would accept the fundamental unfairness of the system and the fact it runs counter to the best interests of our country. It is a fight I know I cannot win.
It's a fight worth fighting. Ukip grew as immigration became more of a concern but to me lost their way, perversely. Carswell rarely talks about immigration, if he does its about fairness and management along the lines you describe. I got into trouble for doing an interview saying immigration didn't bother me, I'm very aware it bothers plenty of others and I understand why.
I'm anti EU because I'm anti bureaucracy at every level, govt has grown too big and become too expensive, its one big gravy train.
Seeing Cameron bumming up to Hollande, a bloke who if he was British Cameron would hold in contempt, nauseates me.
The deals that the US signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand - the Trans Pacific Partnership - are incredibly asymetrical. They allow far more goods into Japan, etc. tariff free than vice-versa. Likewise, they require those countries to essentially implement US intellectual property laws, and to keep those laws in lock-step with the US. That is the US using its heft to denude smaller countries of sovereignty, and I think it is incredibly naieve to think we would be able to resist this.
Similarly, the ISDS tribubals - that take place in secret - that are used under NAFTA to prevent (for example) the Quebec government from banning certain types of GM foods, are also a clear infringement of sovereignty imposed by the US, and worse happen in a secrete fashion.
The Swiss-Chinese FTA is another classic example. Very asymetrical in terms. So, Chinese firms can buy 100% of Swiss banks. Swiss banks can only own 49% of Chinese ones. Almost all Chinese goods enter China tariff free. The Swiss get a reduction in tariffs on watches from 12.5% to 7.5% over 10 years.
Do you have source on TPP?
I do think there is extra element there of Pacific nations wanting US defence umbrella vs China, what puts them in weaker position.
His points are valid and destroy the Leaver argument.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
I can't help thinking that in a rEU what Germany wants will be highly prioritised, and what the UK wants...won't.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
Norway has 15% immigrant population. This from being outside the EU. We have significant immigration from beyond the EU anyway. In terms of numbers its higher than from within the EU. Its dishonest of the Leavers to major on immigration. Its the real project fear its the real scaremongering. It is of course why Carswell has fallen out with Farage. There is little difference to being in the EEA and being in the EU, and RCS100 has been pointing out the problems of dealing with big blocks on our own.
Per Anthony Wells - a couple of findings from the YouGov poll of Con members that would be a surprise if you only read the comments on here:
"Only a quarter of Tory party members said that the leadership candidates’s stances on the EU were an important factor in picking the next leader"
"Among Conservative party members there is very little call for Cameron to make an early departure"
Lots of people on here seem to be winding themselves up into a frenzy about the EU. Most people really aren't that bothered either way - and, perhaps surprisingly, even most Con party members are not that bothered.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
PJ O'Roarke?
Yes
He was great in the 80's, but I think he peaked around "Parliament of Whores": after that he got a bit repetitive, although that's not really a problem. His later stuff post-cancer and the 2007/8 crash was a bit disjointed, tho' that may simply be a factor of age: he's older, richer, happily married father, he's bound to have a more relaxed view. Although I still have fond memories of his description of why a pick-up truck is the best car in the world...
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
Norway has 15% immigrant population. This from being outside the EU. We have significant immigration from beyond the EU anyway. In terms of numbers its higher than from within the EU. Its dishonest of the Leavers to major on immigration. Its the real project fear its the real scaremongering. It is of course why Carswell has fallen out with Farage. There is little difference to being in the EEA and being in the EU, and RCS100 has been pointing out the problems of dealing with big blocks on our own.
More than 1 in 7 in Norway are immigrants? Seems remarkably high.
Not that I'm bothered, its clearly their choice. Perhaps their politicians aren't as useless as ours, our PM says he'll reduce immigration and it continues to rise.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
I actually think psychological effects of perceived attempts at bullying would favour leave.
However it is ridiculous to claim they would offer an option to South Korea that isn't available to the UK.
ITV are only quoting what Germany has stated today though their reporter did say it was significant
So is Cameron going to stand up and say "I have a piece of paper from the German Chancellor". That did not end well last time for the English PM. Is David Chamberlain Cameron going to announce this?
That known nutcase Bone may actually deliver the coup de grace at the next PMQs.. Is it true Mr Cameron that you have been told by the Germans..... Would Cameron survive?
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
PJ O'Roarke?
Yes
He was great in the 80's, but I think he peaked around "Parliament of Whores": after that he got a bit repetitive, although that's not really a problem. His later stuff post-cancer and the 2007/8 crash was a bit disjointed, tho' that may simply be a factor of age: he's older, richer, happily married father, he's bound to have a more relaxed view. Although I still have fond memories of his description of why a pick-up truck is the best car in the world...
I loved his travel journalism. Holidays in Hell is hilarious
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
PJ O'Roarke?
Yes
He was great in the 80's, but I think he peaked around "Parliament of Whores": after that he got a bit repetitive, although that's not really a problem. His later stuff post-cancer and the 2007/8 crash was a bit disjointed, tho' that may simply be a factor of age: he's older, richer, happily married father, he's bound to have a more relaxed view. Although I still have fond memories of his description of why a pick-up truck is the best car in the world...
Is that the same piece in which he explains how a rented car is better than 4 wheel drive, front-wheel drive etc etc. I love that.
BIG developments on the Clinton email scandal today.
The staffer who set up the Clinton email server - Bryan Pagliano - has been granted immunity by DOJ in exchange for his testimony. That means a grand jury has been empanelled or soon will be, and he is actively helping the FBI. That means he knows where the bodies are buried.
Also multiple sources have let it be known that the FBI will be interviewing about a dozen State Department folks, as well as Clinton and her associates over the next few weeks.
If I was a betting man, for the first time I think this is (slightly) more likely to happen than not.
Now there is an issue that makes me turn in to a EU outer head-banger form of rage.
Osborne needs to stop buggering about with pensions, it's ridiculous trying to do long term planning when the rules are continually being changed. 'A' day is a long time ago now.
Cameron plus Osborne are done.
It may not seem like that to people from the bubble, but how many times are people going to listen to more cuts, extended pension ages, 'vote in, or Dover gets it'?
Dead men waffling.
What cuts? Osborne's been on a spend-a-thon.
Smirkers problem now is that the public won't accept any real cuts, so he's going to have to steal from pensions or shove up taxes.
Loonyism is as rampant as ever. Far too many people revealing themselves as fully paid up members of Total Nutjobs International.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
PJ O'Roarke?
Yes
He was great in the 80's, but I think he peaked around "Parliament of Whores": after that he got a bit repetitive, although that's not really a problem. His later stuff post-cancer and the 2007/8 crash was a bit disjointed, tho' that may simply be a factor of age: he's older, richer, happily married father, he's bound to have a more relaxed view. Although I still have fond memories of his description of why a pick-up truck is the best car in the world...
I loved his travel journalism. Holidays in Hell is hilarious
Was that the one where he met the wee Scottish girl who kicked her way to the front of the queue for a bus in the Lebanon? Or where he was in the bar with the two rich Hong Kong women who complained that the British snubbed them (he rendered it as "snurbed").
BIG developments on the Clinton email scandal today.
The staffer who set up the Clinton email server - Bryan Pagliano - has been granted immunity by DOJ in exchange for his testimony. That means a grand jury has been empanelled or soon will be, and he is actively helping the FBI. That means he knows where the bodies are buried.
Also multiple sources have let it be known that the FBI will be interviewing about a dozen State Department folks, as well as Clinton and her associates over the next few weeks.
If I was a betting man, for the first time I think this is (slightly) more likely to happen than not.
Every other day for the last 365 you have been saying there is a big development, the only big development today is the last GOP nominee attacking the likely next nominee and visa versa. If that goes on further and the GOP establishment maybe even put up their own rival candidate unless Hillary gets sent to Alcatraz she will likely still end up in the Oval Office!
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
So we have been threatened today by both France and Germany.
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
As you support Norway case do you then accept contributing and free movement of labour. As far as knowing their support in the EU I would expect that Germany already has the 'ear' of the other EU states in the event of Brexit. Indeed I would expect it to being modelled already
I fully accept contributing. But the amount would be a fraction of what we pay now.
Free movement of labour is something I support.
I am apathetic on free movement itself, but the level of distrust in politics caused by the government having virtually no control on biggest issue to public is staggering. I don't think its healthy for democracy for politicians to have to say "Yeah that thing you most want us to change? We can't change it." It just breeds extremism.
Giving power to politicians is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
PJ O'Roarke?
Yes
He was great in the 80's, but I think he peaked around "Parliament of Whores": after that he got a bit repetitive, although that's not really a problem. His later stuff post-cancer and the 2007/8 crash was a bit disjointed, tho' that may simply be a factor of age: he's older, richer, happily married father, he's bound to have a more relaxed view. Although I still have fond memories of his description of why a pick-up truck is the best car in the world...
Is that the same piece in which he explains how a rented car is better than 4 wheel drive, front-wheel drive etc etc. I love that.
I think so. And of course, what makes it piquant is that Jeremy Clarkson nicked it, if not quite word-for-word, for an episode of "Top Gear". He kept it just this side of plagiarism, but I was yelling at the screen...
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
So we have been threatened today by both France and Germany.
Good luck with that.
Some say threatened - some say stating their position - anyway it's late - good night everyone
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
I suggest scaremongering is entirely accurate. Germany may have a preference but like every other country including the UK they also have to deal with Real Politik. If the UK left and were daft enough to dig in and say absolutely no to EEA membership then there would be a huge amount of wheeling and dealing and a deal would be done which didn't meet either side's absolute objectives but allowed them to save face. The alternative is something the Germans ave absolutely no control over which is trade under the WTO rules. Something that would be the worst result for both sides.
Its people like you who are not prepared to live in the real world but are intent on perpetuating their fantasies. Viewcode makes perfectly respectable points.
I think we are all very well aware that you wouldn't know the real world if it kicked you in the bollocks. Assuming they have even dropped yet. We are having a proper conversation here. Go back and play with your lego.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
So we have been threatened today by both France and Germany.
Good luck with that.
Did you expect us Leaving the EU was going to painlessly endear us to our continental cousins? Or perhaps be a bumpy road?
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
So we have been threatened today by both France and Germany.
Good luck with that.
Some say threatened - some say stating their position - anyway it's late - good night everyone
And some say it's Dodgy Dave putting them up to it, which is much nearer the truth.
ITV reporting that Germany has said that in the event of Brexit the Norway or Iceland options would be the only ones on offer and would require contributions and accept free movement of labour. No doubt Germany will be accused of scaremongering but if that becomes the EU position leave will have a problem
For all that I would be very happy with the Norway or Iceland option, this really is so much bollocks.
Why when it is coming from Germany
Because if they won't negotiate under the Article 50 terms then the UK leaves anyway before the two years is up and negotiates a trade deal from outside - which will be decided by QMV where Germany has no veto.
Personally I want the Norway option. But Germany claiming that is the only deal on the table is simply rubbish as they do not know until the negotiations actually take place if they have the support amongst the rest of the EU to push that through.
It is yet another case of scare mongering hoping to influence those who don't know any better..
I won't debate with you about whether the course you outline is plausible. But surely characterising it as "scaremongering" is erroneous. Germany has an opinion about the deal it wishes to obtain post-Brexit. It isn't one you like, but it is the one it likes. That's not scaremongering, it's expressing a preference.
But Germany has not just stated a preference, it has said that those are the only two options that will be on offer - a statement it cannot make until after Brexit and a subsequent decision by the rEU
So we have been threatened today by both France and Germany.
Good luck with that.
Did you expect us Leaving the EU was going to painlessly endear us to our continental cousins? Or perhaps be a bumpy road?
A couple of years at the most of a bumpy road but to be honest I could not care what shit they come out with.
Of course filling in forms will be much more difficult for you but a small price to pay for the future generations of the U.K.
BIG developments on the Clinton email scandal today.
The staffer who set up the Clinton email server - Bryan Pagliano - has been granted immunity by DOJ in exchange for his testimony. That means a grand jury has been empanelled or soon will be, and he is actively helping the FBI. That means he knows where the bodies are buried.
Also multiple sources have let it be known that the FBI will be interviewing about a dozen State Department folks, as well as Clinton and her associates over the next few weeks.
If I was a betting man, for the first time I think this is (slightly) more likely to happen than not.
Every other day for the last 365 you have been saying there is a big development, the only big development today is the last GOP nominee attacking the likely next nominee and visa versa. If that goes on further and the GOP establishment maybe even put up their own rival candidate unless Hillary gets sent to Alcatraz she will likely still end up in the Oval Office!
A tad too much hyperbole there, but it is you.
His name may be Mitt but today he took the gloves off. He's also irrelevant. It will not affect Trump's numbers.
When the FBI grants immunity in a criminal investigation it is a big development.
Comments
It was bad enough Blair becoming US's Poodle, but Cameron becoming France's Poodle surely underrates Britain's view of its global status.
Suspect he can sink lower yet though...
That known nutcase Bone may actually deliver the coup de grace at the next PMQs.. Is it true Mr Cameron that you have been told by the Germans..... Would Cameron survive?
I can why Corbyn appeals to so many. A lot of his ideas are completely crackpot, but in amongst the crazy stuff, are a fair few that make complete sense.
It would remove us from approx. 73% of the current EU legislation (I can explain the figures if anyone is interested including the old 9% argument which is sometimes misquoted) and would leave us subject only to that legislation related to the Single Market and freedom of movement.
For anyone not overly concerned with UK immigration it is a great option.
The second would lead to open revolt in the Tory party. The first might be unpopular enough to cement a lead for Leave...
In an Osborne V Corbyn election I'd be tempted....
The deals that the US signed with Japan, Australia and New Zealand - the Trans Pacific Partnership - are incredibly asymetrical. They allow far more goods into Japan, etc. tariff free than vice-versa. Likewise, they require those countries to essentially implement US intellectual property laws, and to keep those laws in lock-step with the US. That is the US using its heft to denude smaller countries of sovereignty, and I think it is incredibly naieve to think we would be able to resist this.
Similarly, the ISDS tribubals - that take place in secret - that are used under NAFTA to prevent (for example) the Quebec government from banning certain types of GM foods, are also a clear infringement of sovereignty imposed by the US, and worse happen in a secrete fashion.
The Swiss-Chinese FTA is another classic example. Very asymetrical in terms. So, Chinese firms can buy 100% of Swiss banks. Swiss banks can only own 49% of Chinese ones. Almost all Chinese goods enter China tariff free. The Swiss get a reduction in tariffs on watches from 12.5% to 7.5% over 10 years.
They just sort of... do in this market.
But I don't think the smorgasbord of options will cut through with the public.
Then we have Labour basically producing a review which wants to reintroduce annuities by default and undo much of pension freedoms.
Business is booming, great I suppose but I'm turning in to Donald Rumsfeld with known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns when it comes to saving for your retirement.
ITS A JOKE - JUST STOP THE BUGGERING ABOUT AND LEAVE IT BE FOR A WHILE.
Tory politicians are complacent, and taking us for a ride. I'd hoped for better things after May 2015, but the tax treatment of Google etc, and BTL changes from which the larger and ultimately more damaging landlords were pretty much exempted was too much. Cameron's behaviour over EU negotiations is pitiful.
Of course I could be massively wrong...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/12181446/Britain-will-be-left-sitting-on-EU-margins-if-it-remains-British-Chambers-of-Commerce-head-says.html
Free movement of labour is something I support.
Go and read!
.@johnmcdonnellMP is in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks the EU will bend to his “reform agenda”. It’s allergic to reform #bbcqt
Trump's 3rd party run would kill him
I'm going to try and pick up a fiver at 120...
@johnmcdonnellMP is in cloud cuckoo land
I do think there is extra element there of Pacific nations wanting US defence umbrella vs China, what puts them in weaker position.
https://www.politicshome.com/home-affairs/articles/story/diane-abbott-tells-labour-intolerant-immigration-rhetoric-could-drive
My only exception to this is that I have said on here before that I consider the current migration policy within the EU to be inadvertently racist. It says that an unemployed Frenchman or Italian should have more rights to come to the UK than a highly qualified Indian or Chilean.
Now this again is a philosophical view and not one that in the end changes my view that the EEA is the best option. It is more another example of me realising that my views are in a small minority and unlikely ever to get close to the light of day. One side would attack me for wanting to restrict EU migration and the other would attack me for wanting to increase non EU migration. Neither would accept the fundamental unfairness of the system and the fact it runs counter to the best interests of our country. It is a fight I know I cannot win.
Here's a good summary on the intellectual property provisions of the TPP. https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp
I'm in bed on my phone, but I'll happily send you some analysis I've seen on the trade deals in general when I'm back in the office tomorrow.
For me what is key is:
* single market access
* free movement of labour (I see this as a benefit, not a problem)
* remaining at least loosely connected to the European "project" - I don't think it's wise to detach entirely
The Norway outcome would satisfy all that.
However I don't think it is a likely result of a Leave vote. EEA membership will be hugely controversial in Britain as it won't deal with free movement. It will be decried as "the EU by the back door". There would be the devil's job for Cameron's successor in getting it through Parliament. I don't think Leave will be in any sense smooth, controlled, orderly or predictable. Hence I'd rather stick with the status quo. Still, this German intervention nudges me a tiny bit towards Leave.
Bloomfield (Blackpool) result:
LAB: 57.6% (+12.8)
CON: 19.2% (-0.6)
UKIP: 15.1% (-10.0)
GRN: 4.1% (-4.6)
LDEM: 4.0% (+4.0)
I'm anti EU because I'm anti bureaucracy at every level, govt has grown too big and become too expensive, its one big gravy train.
Seeing Cameron bumming up to Hollande, a bloke who if he was British Cameron would hold in contempt, nauseates me.
Its dishonest of the Leavers to major on immigration. Its the real project fear its the real scaremongering. It is of course why Carswell has fallen out with Farage. There is little difference to being in the EEA and being in the EU, and RCS100 has been pointing out the problems of dealing with big blocks on our own.
"Only a quarter of Tory party members said that the leadership candidates’s stances on the EU were an important factor in picking the next leader"
"Among Conservative party members there is very little call for Cameron to make an early departure"
Lots of people on here seem to be winding themselves up into a frenzy about the EU. Most people really aren't that bothered either way - and, perhaps surprisingly, even most Con party members are not that bothered.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
Not that I'm bothered, its clearly their choice. Perhaps their politicians aren't as useless as ours, our PM says he'll reduce immigration and it continues to rise.
I was hoping I could never hear her fake Scouse accent again.
The staffer who set up the Clinton email server - Bryan Pagliano - has been granted immunity by DOJ in exchange for his testimony. That means a grand jury has been empanelled or soon will be, and he is actively helping the FBI. That means he knows where the bodies are buried.
Also multiple sources have let it be known that the FBI will be interviewing about a dozen State Department folks, as well as Clinton and her associates over the next few weeks.
If I was a betting man, for the first time I think this is (slightly) more likely to happen than not.
CON: 30.2% (-3.4)
LDEM: 27.3% (+16.0)
LAB: 21.6% (-6.9)
UKIP: 20.9% (+20.9)
Good luck with that.
LDEM: 65.1% (-0.7)
CON: 26.8% (-7.4)
UKIP: 8.1% (+8.1)
Of course filling in forms will be much more difficult for you but a small price to pay for the future generations of the U.K.
His name may be Mitt but today he took the gloves off. He's also irrelevant. It will not affect Trump's numbers.
When the FBI grants immunity in a criminal investigation it is a big development.