Personally, I think Leave should commit to remaining in the EEA and single market. This means accepting that change will be modest and "control of our borders" won't be that different from the current situation.
That would make sense - are any of the LEAVE campaigns advocating that (in so far as one can tell)?
Can't get much sense out of their fanboys on here......
I could promise you a Rose garden if we vote Leave, but I don't get to make the decisions.
No, but if the prospectus you are advocating wins, surely it would be better for the Government to have some vague idea upon which basis it won before it proceeds into negotiations?
The 'Four Freedoms' question is as simple and basic as the Scottish 'currency' one - and either it has not been thought through by the campaigns which would be grossly derelict- or it has, and they don't want to discuss it as the answer will p*ss off a lot of LEAVErs....
I'm finding the exchanges on here this morning extraordinary, I'm supposed to be the xenophobe but its now being suggested that if we Leave the savages across the water will burn our Tuscan villas, close universities to our brightest students and restrict all travel.
Look, people are people, they are generally very nice. This referndum is about an unnecessary and unwanted layer of bureaucracy, nothing else.
Some people seem to have little to do but make up garbage on a daily basis. Mainly rich Tories in exile no doubt.
Well, polls should always be treated with a pinch of salt. There's also the issue, for the Conservatives, that members not voters will determine who their next leader is (after the MPs whittle it down to two).
British businesses are way behind many of their EU counterparts when it comes to operating in Asia and other parts of the developing world. That's not the EU's fault, it's the fault of the people who run the businesses (and those who invest in them). Our business culture is focused on short term return, trimming cost rather than investment. As you say, it leads to a tremendous lack of ambition - and making stuff not many people want to buy. There are exceptions - particularly on the services side - but it's been a problem of ours for decades.
The argument about the 4 freedoms is emblematic of a bigger issue. What are Leave offering? What does Out look like and why would it be better? There is a case to be made and I think Gove is probably best placed to make it but it needs to be a vision that Leave as a whole signs up to.
Personally, I think Leave should commit to remaining in the EEA and single market. This means accepting that change will be modest and "control of our borders" won't be that different from the current situation.
But it also means that we can decide a lot more things for ourselves, that our economic access is still secure, that external investment in the UK still has that market access and, as Blackburn says, the layer of bureaucracy that is the European Parliament and the Commission is no longer our problem. I am clearly biased because this is what I want but I also believe that this is a sellable proposition that really should not frighten the horses too much.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
I have been thinking about that and it may be possible to keep the frothers on board by pointing out that if EFTA doesn't work for us it may prove to be no more than an intermediate step and we would have the options of either revising our deal or cutting out altogether once things have settled down but the first step is to Leave.
@CarlottaVance I find studying what the various Leave factions are saying simply too depressing for words. A combination of fantasy and unreality swirling around concepts like sovereignty which mean far less to most people than last week's losing lottery ticket.
Now if I had written that, the dog's abuse that would be pouring forth right now...
The prospect of a President Trump may be quite a decent calling card for Remain. You wouldn't want to be relying on him for anything.
The first thing the capaign has to do is change the name from 'REMAIN'. it might be what appears on the ballot but it's all about framing the argument in a way that suits your cause and that's about as lumpen as a slab of concrete
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
The most likely outcome of Leave is that the UK joins EFTA/EEA, in which case there's reciprocal free movement. I'm certainly not expecting forcible transfers of population.
As with DavidL a perfectly sensible answer - have any of the LEAVE campaigns spelled it out?
Leave's dirty little secret is that what Nigel Farage and UKIP say about Brexit is irrelevant as they will play no part in the Brexit negotiations. The only Leave voices worth listening to are Tory ones as they'll be doing the deal.
just reading last night's thread. One of my favourite things about this site is how people try and try again to convince Rod that he is barking up the wrong tree about eligibility for the US Presidency. If the fact that Obama is the president doesn't shake him, I'm not sure anything else will....
Makes me think of the West Wing episode where Toby corrects a load of lawn signs from Bartlett for President to Bartlett is the President.
The prospect of a President Trump may be quite a decent calling card for Remain. You wouldn't want to be relying on him for anything.
The first thing the capaign has to do is change the name from 'REMAIN'. it might be what appears on the ballot but it's all about framing the argument in a way that suits your cause and that's about as lumpen as a slab of concrete
It shows the deeply establishment nature of those on the In side. "Remain" is U, "Stay" is non-U. I expect David Cameron isn't even consciously aware of that.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
You are correct a dump full of chickens who can be bought off at the threat of losing a few pounds a week. Full of pathetic people with no ambition.
The argument about the 4 freedoms is emblematic of a bigger issue. What are Leave offering? What does Out look like and why would it be better? There is a case to be made and I think Gove is probably best placed to make it but it needs to be a vision that Leave as a whole signs up to.
Personally, I think Leave should commit to remaining in the EEA and single market. This means accepting that change will be modest and "control of our borders" won't be that different from the current situation.
But it also means that we can decide a lot more things for ourselves, that our economic access is still secure, that external investment in the UK still has that market access and, as Blackburn says, the layer of bureaucracy that is the European Parliament and the Commission is no longer our problem. I am clearly biased because this is what I want but I also believe that this is a sellable proposition that really should not frighten the horses too much.
Very sensible, certainly I would hope Leave make this case (if that's what they want) soon and clearly.
However, EEA would also like it or not, and as many articles as @Richard_Tyndall and I bat back and forth about it, make us second class EU citizens with consultation but not decision-making powers for EU regulations.
This may be manna from heaven for Leavers but I can see that it is a simple argument to say that we are engaging with the EU on worse terms than we do currently.
Meanwhile, Gove's ECJ will strike this down shows the quality of the man. Immediate doubt will be put into many waverers' minds.
And you cant tell me whether the Four Freedoms will be affected if we do LEAVE, or whether that's a desire of any of the LEAVE campaigns.
WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE REFERENDUM IS NOT UP TO THE CAMPAIGN, IT'S UP TO THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY.
What are the LEAVE Campaign's positions on the 'Four Freedoms'?
They are advocating 'taking control' - does that affect the Four Freedoms?
Surely if their campaign has won, the Government will want to be mindful of the prospectus upon which that victory was achieved.
So what is it?
Ugh, more pointless rhetorical crap, sorry I am bored, go and bother someone else.
trans 'I don't know, I haven't thought about it, I have no view....' But LEAVE anyway......
Translation. Leave is a wrecking ball, its jobs is to get us out. You don't ask the wrecking ball about the plans for the new building.
The fact that someone can't answer a question doesn't make it a bad or irrelevant question from the questioner's point of view. Sure, Leave isn't in a position to say what comes next but that's what most of the population want to know and will keep asking.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
You are correct a dump full of chickens who can be bought off at the threat of losing a few pounds a week. Full of pathetic people with no ambition.
That's a harsh (but not entirely unfair) description of Swinney, Sturgeon and the agreed Fiscal Framework....(you know, the one you said wouldn't happen....)
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
I am sure when we had a Labour government there were plenty of times when you thought all the Justice Department was wrong, Sean.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
Actually, there is one permutation where it might happen, which is if the paleo-right of the Conservative party sheared off post-referendum to UKIP as part of a major realignment. That would probably need Nigel Farage to go first, since his personal ambition is becoming an impediment to Right Unity, so it doesn't look very likely.
I've just checked and M&C Saatchi did 'Better together' so unlikely they'll do 'Remain'. I imagine they'll have to be approved by all interested paries and the Scottish Nationalists may well not be too happy with them.
As for the agencies themselves nearly all of whom are multi national they'll have their own interests so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility they might individually try to use it as a shop window in which case it'll be a lot of fun.
This may be manna from heaven for Leavers but I can see that it is a simple argument to say that we are engaging with the EU on worse terms than we do currently.
But you always gloss over the bit where we cease to have to care about 90% of their outpourings, all the nonsense about justice, policing, welfare, labour relations, agriculture, fisheries, transport, energy, environment, consumer relations, science, research, company law, telecommunications, information technology, social policy, industrial policy, budgets etc etc revert to being controlled by our elected government.... and we are outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
Actually, there is one permutation where it might happen, which is if the paleo-right of the Conservative party sheared off post-referendum to UKIP as part of a major realignment. That would probably need Nigel Farage to go first, since his personal ambition is becoming an impediment to Right Unity, so it doesn't look very likely.
The prospect of a President Trump may be quite a decent calling card for Remain. You wouldn't want to be relying on him for anything.
The first thing the capaign has to do is change the name from 'REMAIN'. it might be what appears on the ballot but it's all about framing the argument in a way that suits your cause and that's about as lumpen as a slab of concrete
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
Actually, there is one permutation where it might happen, which is if the paleo-right of the Conservative party sheared off post-referendum to UKIP as part of a major realignment. That would probably need Nigel Farage to go first, since his personal ambition is becoming an impediment to Right Unity, so it doesn't look very likely.
If he was going to go, he would have gone by now.
They would need to follow Labour's example. 80,000 Right Wing Tory members join the kippers and vote to ditch Farage for someone less of an arse.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
Actually, there is one permutation where it might happen, which is if the paleo-right of the Conservative party sheared off post-referendum to UKIP as part of a major realignment. That would probably need Nigel Farage to go first, since his personal ambition is becoming an impediment to Right Unity, so it doesn't look very likely.
They'd be better off going and forming a new party with a broader political vision. UK "independence" will either get accepted because the LeaveTories get enough traction with the voters and will manage the EU exit - or UK "independence" will get rejected by the voters (albeit by a small margin - but as Churchill said "one is enough"). In either outcome, Farage and his party are sidelined.
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Edited extra bit: ragamuffin*, even.
Other posters can comment with more authority than me on the subject (I'm firmly in the "I don't care" category on such things). That list is very out of date now, of course.
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Yes, I flit about between the two as well. I think there are some general indicators in words used to show genuine poshness, but even that short list, either not that many or it has changed wildly over time.
The prospect of a President Trump may be quite a decent calling card for Remain. You wouldn't want to be relying on him for anything.
The first thing the capaign has to do is change the name from 'REMAIN'. it might be what appears on the ballot but it's all about framing the argument in a way that suits your cause and that's about as lumpen as a slab of concrete
A song about somebody refusing to accept that their relationship is over....
Baby if you've got to go away Don't think I can take the pain Won't you stay another day Oh, don't leave me alone like this Don't you say it's the final kiss Oh, won't you stay another day
Six Nations: the matches start on Friday, this time.
They look pretty intriguing. It's been a very close tournament so far (England's large margin of victory over Italy aside), and all the matches seem quite evenly matched.
Wales Vs France should be very close.
Then there's Italy against Scotland. Hard to call, as the Scots have been losing, despite glimmers of hope, and Italy should've beaten France but got slaughtered by England. Perhaps favours Italy.
England against Ireland could be tight, but I do wonder if the English might have a quite substantial victory. Ireland seems to have lost some leadership, and I can't help but think a year or two ago they would've edged out the French.
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Edited extra bit: ragamuffin*, even.
Other posters can comment with more authority than me on the subject (I'm firmly in the "I don't care" category on such things). That list is very out of date now, of course.
Indeed. I've even heard a Duchess refer to "the toilet".
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The danger is that one becomes the other.
If say a quarter of Tory voters are sufficiently pissed off about the Tory Leave result that they peel off to the Kippers, then the Kippers are in the low 20's at the next GE. What happens then the Tories, almost certainly with a more sceptical leader, need a coalition partner, and the kippers now have 30ish seats.
If the thread header is correct, that would require 60% of Conservative Leaver voters to defect post-referendum to UKIP. That sounds wildly implausible.
The bigger issue is whether anyone sticks around with UKIP when the issue of UK "independence" is not going to be opened again for a generation.... This is UKIP's chance. They look as ill-prepared for it as the SNP did in 2014. Like the SNP, they seem to have doubted that the Referendum would ever come about. Demanding it was as far as they had got. After that, it is "er.....um...."
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Yes, I flit about between the two as well. I think there are some general indicators in words used to show genuine poshness, but even that short list, either not that many or it has changed wildly over time.
Just talking about being makes you a wannabe fanny the highest order. PS : kle4 not meaning you personally. Usually just used by rich insecure halfwits who need to feel they are better/grander than poorer people.
The prospect of a President Trump may be quite a decent calling card for Remain. You wouldn't want to be relying on him for anything.
The first thing the capaign has to do is change the name from 'REMAIN'. it might be what appears on the ballot but it's all about framing the argument in a way that suits your cause and that's about as lumpen as a slab of concrete
A song about somebody refusing to accept that their relationship is over....
Baby if you've got to go away Don't think I can take the pain Won't you stay another day Oh, don't leave me alone like this Don't you say it's the final kiss Oh, won't you stay another day
well, who's going to listen to the lyrics beyond "stay"?
too many words in UKIP songs. esp. the mike read calypso.
same with that Footballs coming home one too. they didn't need to rewrite all the words. nobodies listening (perhas they should have gone for "vindaloo" instead.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Yes, I flit about between the two as well. I think there are some general indicators in words used to show genuine poshness, but even that short list, either not that many or it has changed wildly over time.
Just talking about being makes you a wannabe fanny the highest order. PS : kle4 not meaning you personally. Usually just used by rich insecure halfwits who need to feel they are better/grander than poorer people.
The argument about the 4 freedoms is emblematic of a bigger issue. What are Leave offering? What does Out look like and why would it be better? There is a case to be made and I think Gove is probably best placed to make it but it needs to be a vision that Leave as a whole signs up to.
Personally, I think Leave should commit to remaining in the EEA and single market. This means accepting that change will be modest and "control of our borders" won't be that different from the current situation.
But it also means that we can decide a lot more things for ourselves, that our economic access is still secure, that external investment in the UK still has that market access and, as Blackburn says, the layer of bureaucracy that is the European Parliament and the Commission is no longer our problem. I am clearly biased because this is what I want but I also believe that this is a sellable proposition that really should not frighten the horses too much.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
I have been thinking about that and it may be possible to keep the frothers on board by pointing out that if EFTA doesn't work for us it may prove to be no more than an intermediate step and we would have the options of either revising our deal or cutting out altogether once things have settled down but the first step is to Leave.
@CarlottaVance I find studying what the various Leave factions are saying simply too depressing for words. A combination of fantasy and unreality swirling around concepts like sovereignty which mean far less to most people than last week's losing lottery ticket.
Now if I had written that, the dog's abuse that would be pouring forth right now...
And you could have done. The most incicive thinkers by profession (and I am neither) are advertisers and lawyers. Both in different ways but they lead the field by a distance
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
Would it make you want to leave and go to a different country?
I've just checked and M&C Saatchi did 'Better together' so unlikely they'll do 'Remain'. I imagine they'll have to be approved by all interested paries and the Scottish Nationalists may well not be too happy with them.
As for the agencies themselves nearly all of whom are multi national they'll have their own interests so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility they might individually try to use it as a shop window in which case it'll be a lot of fun.
Would that this shower (on either side) had to clear their copy before they aired it.....I doubt either would get more than one word in three on air......
Life would be so much easier for advertisers if we had the rules politicians do.....Persil intends to wash whiter.....Ariel might get out the stains others leave behind.....no submissions, copy support, R&D approval, Legal, PR - in fact you just make up any old rubbish & air it.....which does rather appear to be the approach of all the campaigns.....if only politicians were washing powder salesmen.....
The argument about the 4 freedoms is emblematic of a bigger issue. What are Leave offering? What does Out look like and why would it be better? There is a case to be made and I think Gove is probably best placed to make it but it needs to be a vision that Leave as a whole signs up to.
Personally, I think Leave should commit to remaining in the EEA and single market. This means accepting that change will be modest and "control of our borders" won't be that different from the current situation.
But it also means that we can decide a lot more things for ourselves, that our economic access is still secure, that external investment in the UK still has that market access and, as Blackburn says, the layer of bureaucracy that is the European Parliament and the Commission is no longer our problem. I am clearly biased because this is what I want but I also believe that this is a sellable proposition that really should not frighten the horses too much.
Tory Leave is a lot less worrying than UKIP Leave because, on a day to day basis, it changes very little and means on-going access to the free market on pretty much the basis we have now. It will, though, leave many Leavers hugely disappointed as it is going to make almost no significant difference to levels of immigration.
The biggest problem for Leave is the uncertainty provided by a 3/4 pronged campaign with none of them really clear about what they want instead of the re-negotiated deal. The result is that many who could be affected are in panic mode. There are many such people and they all have friends, relatives, etc.
Remain is very much non U in my 'umble opinion. People like Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine who was famously described by Alan Clark as 'someone who bought his own furniture'. If anything there's a large element of social insecurity in Remain; the wish to be part of a new European elite in the leadership, and the horror of Daily Mail readers within the rank and file - horror because they realise they are little more than a jar of pesto and a Guardian subscription from these people themselves. The (admittedly few) aristocrats I've experienced have been openly patriotic and don't revile the lower middle class.
Mr. Meeks, then I must be some sort of crazy hybrid, because I must use about half the terms from either list.
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Yes, I flit about between the two as well. I think there are some general indicators in words used to show genuine poshness, but even that short list, either not that many or it has changed wildly over time.
Just talking about being makes you a wannabe fanny the highest order. PS : kle4 not meaning you personally. Usually just used by rich insecure halfwits who need to feel they are better/grander than poorer people.
just reading last night's thread. One of my favourite things about this site is how people try and try again to convince Rod that he is barking up the wrong tree about eligibility for the US Presidency. If the fact that Obama is the president doesn't shake him, I'm not sure anything else will....
Makes me think of the West Wing episode where Toby corrects a load of lawn signs from Bartlett for President to Bartlett is the President.
The case against Cruz is stronger than that against Obama.
Anecdote: I had dinner recently with an old Tory friend who is involved with the Leave effort, knows Aaron Banks well, and is familiar with the efforts to coordinate the campaign. He says the difficulty in forming a joint campaign has two insurmountable obstacles: the people are incompatible and often difficult and in a few cases unpleasant characters, and they disagree on the fundamental question of whether post-Leave the outcome should be the EEA (with free movement intact) or not. Therefore, people have entirely stopped trying to get a united view, and everyone will do their own thing, with the money going to the camp backed by the Cabinet members and the rest acting as outriders. He agrees it's a problem, but "we can only do what's possible for what we think is right". He shrugged and said they expected to lose, but "you never know". Seemed a fair summary.
By the way, maybe it's my foreign background, but isn't the "shake it all about" metaphor long past its sell-by date? How many people now alive have ever participated in or watched the dance which I think it refers to? Do young people get the reference at all?
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
Quite appropriate, really, both 'Remain' and 'Stay' come from the French:
Remain Late Middle English: from Old French remain-, stressed stem of remanoir, from Latin remanere, from re- (expressing intensive force) + manere 'to stay'.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
Would it make you want to leave and go to a different country?
No, of course not. I'm just pissed off.
We've always been renowned for our common sense, historically, not easily frightened, and very good at sniffing out bullshit a mile away.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
If people believe they will be £1,000/year worse off under Brexit, then most will choose Remain. People live day-to-day, they worry about their mortgage, their job, whether they'll be able to afford their holiday. The ECJ being able to - theoretically - disadvantage the City of London means nothing to people.
Remember, fear of loss is always a much stronger emotion than hope of gain.
And that's why this campaign is Project Fear - certainly from the Remain side, but also increasingly from our side. It's about convincing people they will be worse off if they choose a certain option. Because material needs - as we've seen throughout history - trump constitutional process, personal freedoms and democracy.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
It is a failure of Leaves (plural) to articulate what Brexit means and what a post Brexit future entails.
Nobody likes uncertainty, especially economic uncertainty. It is always the economy stupid, not inmigration that wins elections and plebiscites.
Right now any leaver talking about immigration and not the economy is the equivalent of peeing in your pants. It might give you a warm feeling but doesn't impress nor persuade anyone else.
Trump win not a surprise in NV, but Rubio still not doing anything to shake feeling that he's not going to pick up all the anti-trump soon enough. I see his price has drifted higher since I last looked.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
I am venting. I would also blame Leave for fighting like a sack of kittens, and myself for my lack of restraint and intemperance.
I've just checked and M&C Saatchi did 'Better together' so unlikely they'll do 'Remain'. I imagine they'll have to be approved by all interested paries and the Scottish Nationalists may well not be too happy with them.
As for the agencies themselves nearly all of whom are multi national they'll have their own interests so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility they might individually try to use it as a shop window in which case it'll be a lot of fun.
Would that this shower (on either side) had to clear their copy before they aired it.....I doubt either would get more than one word in three on air......
Life would be so much easier for advertisers if we had the rules politicians do.....Persil intends to wash whiter.....Ariel might get out the stains others leave behind.....no submissions, copy support, R&D approval, Legal, PR - in fact you just make up any old rubbish & air it.....which does rather appear to be the approach of all the campaigns.....if only politicians were washing powder salesmen.....
By the way, maybe it's my foreign background, but isn't the "shake it all about" metaphor long past its sell-by date? How many people now alive have ever participated in or watched the dance which I think it refers to? Do young people get the reference at all?
I'm not exactly young, but as a child in the 80s, I did that dance every Saturday, at the local workingmen's club, in Sheffield. It was always played between the bingo and the first waltz.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
I am venting. I would also blame Leave for fighting like a sack of kittens, and myself for my lack of restraint and intemperance.
The problem with our side is that we have no coherent vision for a post-EU world. Obviously, individually we all have coherent visions, and yours, Richard Tyndall and mine all look remarkably similar. But our vision is very different to that of Plato and Nigel Farage. The Indigo answer of "we'll sort it out on the other side" misses the fact that for many voters, the order of preference is EEA > EU > Fortress UK.
I blame, to some extent, the desire to motivate all parts of the base. But I think it is fundamentally flawed as a strategy because it means that the Leave side will appear shifty and disingenuous. Grassroots, Leave.EU, Vote Leave need to sit down this week. They need to agree that the Norwegian or Swiss model is what we're going for. Nigel needs to swallow the fact that he's only going to get 50% of what he wants. Because if he doesn't, he'll end up with 0%.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
I don't think he'll do this, but if Gove really wanted to go nuclear he could resign his justice team en-masse and do a TV speech as a team announcing the deal was a crock of shit.
High risk, but could blow a hole in Remain and set himself up as a leader even more so.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
The concrete beats the abstract in most peoples' minds. They have learned to be wary of Grand Visions of either left or right - things tend to work out much more messily. If people genuinely felt that being inside or outside the EU would transform the future of the country and their grandchildren, they'd vote accordingly. Failing that, they vote for £2.50 a month.
You and I and many of us on this site are primarily motivated by more abstract themes - for instance, I'm basically a European and I positively like the idea that the continent will gradually merge so we work together for our common good. I'd be pleased to pay £2.50 a month to help make it happen. I respect your contrary view that Britain should be proudly independent and carving out its own excellent future. But if we're honest with each other, aren't we both more in hope that expectation, and in reality the forseeable future will probably either be a sometimes grumpy and difficult coalition of countries in the EU or a sometimes awkward and fractious existence outside it? Perhaps the £2.50 people see it more clearly than we do?
" The ECJ being able to - theoretically - disadvantage the City of London means nothing to people.”
Many people outside the immediate London area, rightly or wrongly, regard the City as parasitic and regard someone or somewthing which boxed it’s ears or otherwise somewhat disadvantaged it as a Good Thing.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
I am venting. I would also blame Leave for fighting like a sack of kittens, and myself for my lack of restraint and intemperance.
The problem with our side is that we have no coherent vision for a post-EU world. Obviously, individually we all have coherent visions, and yours, Richard Tyndall and mine all look remarkably similar. But our vision is very different to that of Plato and Nigel Farage. The Indigo answer of "we'll sort it out on the other side" misses the fact that for many voters, the order of preference is EEA > EU > Fortress UK.
I blame, to some extent, the desire to motivate all parts of the base. But I think it is fundamentally flawed as a strategy because it means that the Leave side will appear shifty and disingenuous. Grassroots, Leave.EU, Vote Leave need to sit down this week. They need to agree that the Norwegian or Swiss model is what we're going for. Nigel needs to swallow the fact that he's only going to get 50% of what he wants. Because if he doesn't, he'll end up with 0%.
I think its unfair to class an end state with some limits on migration as "fortress UK". Is Canada "fortress Canada"??
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
I don't think he'll do this, but if Gove really wanted to go nuclear he could resign his justice team en-masse and do a TV speech as a team announcing the deal was a crock of shit.
High risk, but could blow a hole in Remain and set himself up as a leader even more so.
Very very unlikely to happen though.
He can't do it now; he was on the radio making a very nuanced point this morning, in a measured tone. If he resigns now, he'll spend his time answering the question "So, what's changed between what you said on Radio 4 and now?"
The Daily Mail has lost all pretense to provide a sensible narrative of the referendum debate and arguably are more extreme in their hatred of those who support remain than even the daily express. For those of us who are seeking a persuasive case to leave it is just a turn off and it would be interesting if the Daily Mail will see a reduction in it's sales until post the referendum. I would cancel it and read it on line but my wife loves the puzzles so it will still be delivered but left unread by myself
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
I am venting. I would also blame Leave for fighting like a sack of kittens, and myself for my lack of restraint and intemperance.
The problem with our side is that we have no coherent vision for a post-EU world. Obviously, individually we all have coherent visions, and yours, Richard Tyndall and mine all look remarkably similar. But our vision is very different to that of Plato and Nigel Farage. The Indigo answer of "we'll sort it out on the other side" misses the fact that for many voters, the order of preference is EEA > EU > Fortress UK.
I blame, to some extent, the desire to motivate all parts of the base. But I think it is fundamentally flawed as a strategy because it means that the Leave side will appear shifty and disingenuous. Grassroots, Leave.EU, Vote Leave need to sit down this week. They need to agree that the Norwegian or Swiss model is what we're going for. Nigel needs to swallow the fact that he's only going to get 50% of what he wants. Because if he doesn't, he'll end up with 0%.
I agree but Osborne the Mendacious will have thought of his.
How do we know the very next day Norway, Switzerland and Iceland et al won't be all over the papers saying they'd never accept us and the EU countries (all of them) saying they'd veto it?
This may be manna from heaven for Leavers but I can see that it is a simple argument to say that we are engaging with the EU on worse terms than we do currently.
But you always gloss over the bit where we cease to have to care about 90% of their outpourings, all the nonsense about justice, policing, welfare, labour relations, agriculture, fisheries, transport, energy, environment, consumer relations, science, research, company law, telecommunications, information technology, social policy, industrial policy, budgets etc etc revert to being controlled by our elected government.... and we are outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
Well off the top of my head we also have a specific carve/opt-out of justice and policing (it's in the pre-amble of the negotiated text I think).
I try not to gloss over anything so I would be interested in one or two examples of some of the categories you list where we have been affected - plenty of intrusions so can you give me a feel for where I should take so much umbrage.
Look I have moved from an in- to out- to now in-waverer as I have looked at what being in the EU means specifically for certain industries, and I won't go into all that again. Neither you nor I would have started from here, but here we are. I have yet to see concrete measures in any industry which disadvantage us beyond us having signed up to a common set of rules which are arguably advantageous for all.
If I start accumulating such examples then I might easily head back to the "out" side. Help me out here.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
I wouldn't. It's natural for people to believe powerful vested interests who promise them the terrors of the earth. I blame the powerful vested interests, not the people who believe them.
I am venting. I would also blame Leave for fighting like a sack of kittens, and myself for my lack of restraint and intemperance.
The problem with our side is that we have no coherent vision for a post-EU world. Obviously, individually we all have coherent visions, and yours, Richard Tyndall and mine all look remarkably similar. But our vision is very different to that of Plato and Nigel Farage. The Indigo answer of "we'll sort it out on the other side" misses the fact that for many voters, the order of preference is EEA > EU > Fortress UK.
I blame, to some extent, the desire to motivate all parts of the base. But I think it is fundamentally flawed as a strategy because it means that the Leave side will appear shifty and disingenuous. Grassroots, Leave.EU, Vote Leave need to sit down this week. They need to agree that the Norwegian or Swiss model is what we're going for. Nigel needs to swallow the fact that he's only going to get 50% of what he wants. Because if he doesn't, he'll end up with 0%.
I think its unfair to class an end state with some limits on migration as "fortress UK". Is Canada "fortress Canada"??
Sure, sure.
I just think it is better to tweak outcomes by changing incentives, rather than hard quotas.
just reading last night's thread. One of my favourite things about this site is how people try and try again to convince Rod that he is barking up the wrong tree about eligibility for the US Presidency. If the fact that Obama is the president doesn't shake him, I'm not sure anything else will....
Makes me think of the West Wing episode where Toby corrects a load of lawn signs from Bartlett for President to Bartlett is the President.
Obama was born in the USA.
You can buy a mug with his birth certificate on it.
So, Gove reckons that the deal, such as it is, is not even legally binding. Given that the rest of the Justice ministers are campaigning for Leave, one has to conclude that they agree with him. Now, if the entire justice department believes this to be the case, it's hard to conclude that they are wrong.
That is a possibility, and that does not sound terrible to me.
Christ the lack of ambition of so many Brits is depressing, reminds me of why I do business in Asia. No one is concerned about the future of their country, or the possibilities of a better and more prosperous life for their grandchildren, or reaching out across the world and becoming a truly global country, not stuck in a decaying backwater.
Oh no, everyone is concerned it might cost them £2.50 a month off their pension, or they might have a couple extra forms to fill in once a year. The poverty of ambition is breathtaking. The UK doesn't reach for the stars any more, it reaches for the six pack of lager and turns of Big Brother.
I will lose a lot of respect for my fellow Britons if they fall en-masse for these scare tactics.
Would it make you want to leave and go to a different country?
No, of course not. I'm just pissed off.
We've always been renowned for our common sense, historically, not easily frightened, and very good at sniffing out bullshit a mile away.
Willingness to run risks or accept hardship is related to the possible pay-off. Many people don't see any advantage for themselves in Brexit so it's unlikely they will run the risk of even very mild suffering for it. That's where Project Fear can work. People may not believe they'll be £3000 a year worse of or £1000 or even £500 but in their mind they are thinking they really don't want to be £5 out of pocket for something that doesn't mean a lot to them.
Which is to say that Leave needs to explain how, on the contrary, there will be immediate tangible benefits from leaving.
Anecdote: I had dinner recently with an old Tory friend who is involved with the Leave effort, knows Aaron Banks well, and is familiar with the efforts to coordinate the campaign. He says the difficulty in forming a joint campaign has two insurmountable obstacles: the people are incompatible and often difficult and in a few cases unpleasant characters, and they disagree on the fundamental question of whether post-Leave the outcome should be the EEA (with free movement intact) or not. Therefore, people have entirely stopped trying to get a united view, and everyone will do their own thing, with the money going to the camp backed by the Cabinet members and the rest acting as outriders. He agrees it's a problem, but "we can only do what's possible for what we think is right". He shrugged and said they expected to lose, but "you never know". Seemed a fair summary.
By the way, maybe it's my foreign background, but isn't the "shake it all about" metaphor long past its sell-by date? How many people now alive have ever participated in or watched the dance which I think it refers to? Do young people get the reference at all?
Yes.
I went to school in the nineties, and it was a firm fixture of parties etc.
just reading last night's thread. One of my favourite things about this site is how people try and try again to convince Rod that he is barking up the wrong tree about eligibility for the US Presidency. If the fact that Obama is the president doesn't shake him, I'm not sure anything else will....
Makes me think of the West Wing episode where Toby corrects a load of lawn signs from Bartlett for President to Bartlett is the President.
Obama was born in the USA.
You can buy a mug with his birth certificate on it.
Wasn’t he smuggled in in a warming pan? Or was that someone else?
Comments
The 'Four Freedoms' question is as simple and basic as the Scottish 'currency' one - and either it has not been thought through by the campaigns which would be grossly derelict- or it has, and they don't want to discuss it as the answer will p*ss off a lot of LEAVErs....
Well, polls should always be treated with a pinch of salt. There's also the issue, for the Conservatives, that members not voters will determine who their next leader is (after the MPs whittle it down to two).
Makes me think of the West Wing episode where Toby corrects a load of lawn signs from Bartlett for President to Bartlett is the President.
However, EEA would also like it or not, and as many articles as @Richard_Tyndall and I bat back and forth about it, make us second class EU citizens with consultation but not decision-making powers for EU regulations.
This may be manna from heaven for Leavers but I can see that it is a simple argument to say that we are engaging with the EU on worse terms than we do currently.
Meanwhile, Gove's ECJ will strike this down shows the quality of the man. Immediate doubt will be put into many waverers' minds.
Maybe you should get back in the ring?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
I'm not convinced there's anything in that. Might as well have tatterdemalion on the U list and ragamuffon on the non-U list.
Edited extra bit: ragamuffin*, even.
12
44.2%
Cruz
5
23.3%
Rubio
5
22.8%
Rubio Rising ?
Media will be ditching him faster than a bad case of the clap.
Quite a rise.
Baby if you've got to go away
Don't think I can take the pain
Won't you stay another day
Oh, don't leave me alone like this
Don't you say it's the final kiss
Oh, won't you stay another day
They look pretty intriguing. It's been a very close tournament so far (England's large margin of victory over Italy aside), and all the matches seem quite evenly matched.
Wales Vs France should be very close.
Then there's Italy against Scotland. Hard to call, as the Scots have been losing, despite glimmers of hope, and Italy should've beaten France but got slaughtered by England. Perhaps favours Italy.
England against Ireland could be tight, but I do wonder if the English might have a quite substantial victory. Ireland seems to have lost some leadership, and I can't help but think a year or two ago they would've edged out the French.
too many words in UKIP songs. esp. the mike read calypso.
same with that Footballs coming home one too. they didn't need to rewrite all the words. nobodies listening (perhas they should have gone for "vindaloo" instead.
Does Dashwood have a good reputation? Are there any lawyers here who can comment on the soundness of his argument?
Life would be so much easier for advertisers if we had the rules politicians do.....Persil intends to wash whiter.....Ariel might get out the stains others leave behind.....no submissions, copy support, R&D approval, Legal, PR - in fact you just make up any old rubbish & air it.....which does rather appear to be the approach of all the campaigns.....if only politicians were washing powder salesmen.....
patriotic and don't revile the lower middle class.
By the way, maybe it's my foreign background, but isn't the "shake it all about" metaphor long past its sell-by date? How many people now alive have ever participated in or watched the dance which I think it refers to? Do young people get the reference at all?
The only question now is whether Trump will get more votes than Rubio and Cruz combined.
Remain
Late Middle English: from Old French remain-, stressed stem of remanoir, from Latin remanere, from re- (expressing intensive force) + manere 'to stay'.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/remain
Stay
Late Middle English (as a verb): from Anglo-Norman French estai-, stem of Old French ester, from Latin stare 'to stand'; in the sense 'support'
While 'Leave' is Old English:
Leave
Old English lǣfan 'bequeath', also 'allow to remain, leave in place' of Germanic origin; related to German bleiben 'remain'.
As Churchill (I think) observed, 'short words over long, Anglo Saxon over French.....
We've always been renowned for our common sense, historically, not easily frightened, and very good at sniffing out bullshit a mile away.
Remember, fear of loss is always a much stronger emotion than hope of gain.
And that's why this campaign is Project Fear - certainly from the Remain side, but also increasingly from our side. It's about convincing people they will be worse off if they choose a certain option. Because material needs - as we've seen throughout history - trump constitutional process, personal freedoms and democracy.
Nobody likes uncertainty, especially economic uncertainty. It is always the economy stupid, not inmigration that wins elections and plebiscites.
Right now any leaver talking about immigration and not the economy is the equivalent of peeing in your pants. It might give you a warm feeling but doesn't impress nor persuade anyone else.
Trump win not a surprise in NV, but Rubio still not doing anything to shake feeling that he's not going to pick up all the anti-trump soon enough. I see his price has drifted higher since I last looked.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461345/PETER-OBORNE-principles-PM-accuses-Boris-self-Tories-flaunted-anti-EU-views-careers-first.html
I blame, to some extent, the desire to motivate all parts of the base. But I think it is fundamentally flawed as a strategy because it means that the Leave side will appear shifty and disingenuous. Grassroots, Leave.EU, Vote Leave need to sit down this week. They need to agree that the Norwegian or Swiss model is what we're going for. Nigel needs to swallow the fact that he's only going to get 50% of what he wants. Because if he doesn't, he'll end up with 0%.
High risk, but could blow a hole in Remain and set himself up as a leader even more so.
Very very unlikely to happen though.
Privately educated elite continues to take top jobs, finds survey
Privately schooled people still dominate law, politics, medicine and journalism despite signs of progress, says Sutton Trust
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey?CMP=share_btn_tw
Mr. Royale, I may've used 'looking glass' in writing. And do sometimes call a radio a wireless...
You and I and many of us on this site are primarily motivated by more abstract themes - for instance, I'm basically a European and I positively like the idea that the continent will gradually merge so we work together for our common good. I'd be pleased to pay £2.50 a month to help make it happen. I respect your contrary view that Britain should be proudly independent and carving out its own excellent future. But if we're honest with each other, aren't we both more in hope that expectation, and in reality the forseeable future will probably either be a sometimes grumpy and difficult coalition of countries in the EU or a sometimes awkward and fractious existence outside it? Perhaps the £2.50 people see it more clearly than we do?
Many people outside the immediate London area, rightly or wrongly, regard the City as parasitic and regard someone or somewthing which boxed it’s ears or otherwise somewhat disadvantaged it as a Good Thing.
How do we know the very next day Norway, Switzerland and Iceland et al won't be all over the papers saying they'd never accept us and the EU countries (all of them) saying they'd veto it?
I try not to gloss over anything so I would be interested in one or two examples of some of the categories you list where we have been affected - plenty of intrusions so can you give me a feel for where I should take so much umbrage.
Look I have moved from an in- to out- to now in-waverer as I have looked at what being in the EU means specifically for certain industries, and I won't go into all that again. Neither you nor I would have started from here, but here we are. I have yet to see concrete measures in any industry which disadvantage us beyond us having signed up to a common set of rules which are arguably advantageous for all.
If I start accumulating such examples then I might easily head back to the "out" side. Help me out here.
I just think it is better to tweak outcomes by changing incentives, rather than hard quotas.
You can buy a mug with his birth certificate on it.
Which is to say that Leave needs to explain how, on the contrary, there will be immediate tangible benefits from leaving.
I went to school in the nineties, and it was a firm fixture of parties etc.
And it wasn't even an especially U prep school.
16 people voted for Carly Fiorina today.
Actual real live people, walked into a polling station and ticked her name
Still 5 delegates each.
In truth they're both being slaughtered.
Morris dancers transcend all boundaries of class.
SNP: 41
Con: 26
Lab: 20
http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Daily-Mail_Political-poll_22February-2016.pdf
* i.e. for entertainment value only......