P. 72 of the 2015 Conservative Manifesto said this:
"Real change in our relationship with the European Union
Our commitment to you:
For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:
1. give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017 2. commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone 3. reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic 4. reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market 5. back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape."
These are the benchmarks against which David Cameron should be judged. He has delivered on 1 - but that didn't require getting anything from Brussels. Failing to deliver on 2 would have had Cameron swinging from a lamp-post (politically speaking). And this renegotiation hasn't delivered on 3, 4 or 5. Disappointing is barely adequate. 
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
You say that now, but there are four months of campaigning to come, followed by a highly emotional vote in which LEAVE is likely to lose, on the basis of a pack of lies told by the prime minister. It's THAT which will poison the Tory party for years. ....
Sadly true. If Cameron and Osborne played it honest and fair and did not try and stack the debate with a Project Fear approach then they would be seen as even handed within all the party. But sadly that has not been the case and on Day one Osborne was out this morning talking about a fear of the unknown and was not being honest and admitting that immigration would not be substantially reduced after this new deal. Winning the referendum has been made a more important objective than holding the party together.
Speaking as the only pb-er (I think) to predict 1 a narrow indyref NO followed by 2 an emotional surge to the SNP
here's how I see post REMAIN playing out, as it did in Scotland (and yes I get zillions of predix wrong blah blah, but I got this one right)
Once the country has voted REMAIN it will look at itself with a kind guilty self-disgust - how could we be so unmanly, why didn't we vote for the patriotic cause, WTF were we thinking, falling for those Establishment lies, etc. These feelings are what convulsed the Scots post indyref. A Freudian self loathing sublimated into political aggression. It will be the same in the UK, and these feelings will be particularly acute - borderline virulent - in the Tory party.
A version of this same Freudian, quasi-Oedipal psychosis is now playing out in the Labour party, vis a vis Blair and Iraq. Self hatred turned into self harm, or externalised harm.
The result will be the same for the Tories as it was in Scotland and in Labour. The child will turn on the guilty father, and slay him, symbolically. The Cameroons will be reviled, and their acolytes abjured. The local deity will be mocked and killed. There may be ritualised burnings.
While I'm sure than in the case Remain wins the deal will not produce results or will be altered or forgotten to be implemented by the EU, I doubt there would be an extreme reaction by Tory voters against their own party, however they will want to replace their leadership with a Leaver.
The Remainers can forget about Tory leadership prospects for a long time whatever the result.
Unless there is a monumental victory for Remain, I think your analysis is correct: the party will want an Out-ter.
But I think it needs to be someone who can bring the party back together again. It cannot be someone divisive.
But, and this seems to be under-rated, they have to be an instantly credible Prime Minister. No party membership has ever directly elected a PM before. If an Outer, this limits the field to Gove and (at a stretch) Patel, unless Boris goes Leave.
There are more and they will get an opportunity to fly or sink.
The post-referendum Cabinet reshuffle will be fascinating; assuming a Remain win of 55-60% what number of Outers does Cameron appoint? 8? Which ones? (One presumes Grayling is a goner, IDS too perhaps).
I think that the next leader will need to have been in one of the top 7-8 non-PM Cabinet jobs; CoE, FS, HS, Justice, Education, Health, Defence, Business at a push - so if they're not there already they'll need to be reshuffled in.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
You say that now, but there are four months of campaigning to come, followed by a highly emotional vote in which LEAVE is likely to lose, on the basis of a pack of lies told by the prime minister. It's THAT which will poison the Tory party for years. ....
Sadly true. If Cameron and Osborne played it honest and fair and did not try and stack the debate with a Project Fear approach then they would be seen as even handed within all the party. But sadly that has not been the case and on Day one Osborne was out this morning talking about a fear of the unknown and was not being honest and admitting that immigration would not be substantially reduced after this new deal. Winning the referendum has been made a more important objective than holding the party together.
Let us not forget Osborne claiming we can veto unwanted EU legislation.
A campaign based on lies will not bring a party together post referendum.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
Precisely so. You have to be a member of the tribe to understand it.
i think that Corbyn concentrates minds wonderfully.
Osborne by contrast, will produce a Brownian turd of a budget next month and pretend he's a conservative.
So that's what Brownian motion means!
Any whispers about Boris's intentions? I was expecting his decision to be in tomorrow's papers, but it's too late now. Is he planning to knife his fellow Old Etonian and Bullingdon Clubber shortly before Cameron gets interviewed by Andrew Marr tomorrow? What, and still get the OE invitations? I kind of doubt it. More likely he won't make a big bang but will squib it with a silly phrase that essentially means "Yeah, nice one, Dave", maybe tomorrow afternoon or evening when the world has stopped giving a damn.
The prior question is whether the City of London got what it wanted in the deal, and on the face of it it seems they probably did, even if one could reasonably add the words "for now". This is the "France wimped out" reading, which is no more than a guess. If Boris stabs, I'll reconsider.
No. France won hands down. Cameron got absolutely nothing on protection for the city.
Its worse than that. He went backwards. Theres no room for different interpretations of single rulebook AND it now applies to non-bank financial institutions. Given EP is likely to reverse welfare changes, its almost certainly worse than status quo.
We should demand second referendum if terms of deal change btw.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
OGH, worth a couple of threads on 1. What happens to the Conservative party if Remain wins? 2. What happens to the Conservative party if Leave wins? It affects the betting on next Leader and PM.
I think the results will be the same, whichever side wins the Leavers will have the upper hand in a leadership election.
Corbyn will make sure the Tory party remains in a single piece, so it won't break up, but there will be a reaction against the pro-european leadership from the inside.
So which ever cabinet minister supports Leave will get an advantage and those who support Remain will have a disadvantage.
The prior question is whether the City of London got what it wanted in the deal, and on the face of it it seems they probably did, even if one could reasonably add the words "for now". This is the "France wimped out" reading, which is no more than a guess. If Boris stabs, I'll reconsider.
No. France won hands down. Cameron got absolutely nothing on protection for the city.
"Protection" If that assessment is correct, I reckon Boris will go for it and Leave will win.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
This referendum is going to be marvellous for exposing the shallow depth of some people's convictions and grumbles on law and order, migration, poor pay and social inequity.
One other event coming up is Osborne's next budget. Will his part time approach to being Chancellor lead to another omnishambles like 2012 and the partial shambles of the tax credits last year? He has probably run out of areas to make major mistakes in although the pension and probate tax changes may blow up. Both would hurt Londoners more than other parts of the country.
The prior question is whether the City of London got what it wanted in the deal, and on the face of it it seems they probably did, even if one could reasonably add the words "for now". This is the "France wimped out" reading, which is no more than a guess. If Boris stabs, I'll reconsider.
No. France won hands down. Cameron got absolutely nothing on protection for the city.
"Protection" If that assessment is correct, I reckon Boris will go for it and Leave will win.
Indeed, with no protection Boris would be well advised to withdraw.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
He mentioned house claim in letter. You can't build within 5 miles of heathland apparently.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
Me for LEAVE. Already am.
I will be although waiting to see who gets the commission designation. I can find 20+ deliverers of a like mind round here to work with.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
You say that now, but there are four months of campaigning to come, followed by a highly emotional vote in which LEAVE is likely to lose, on the basis of a pack of lies told by the prime minister.
It's THAT which will poison the Tory party for years. It's kind of unavoidable. It's also made MORE likely by the existence of Corbyn. The Tories can indulge in some pleasurable yet vicious internal strife as there is almost no chance of losing in 2020.
It won't (I hope) As I noted before, the next Tory leader can say, Dave tried his best, but the EU haven't lived up to their side of the bargain, in the 2020 Tory manifesto will promise another EU referendum.
Poison drained.
Dave is revered in the party, his legacy is his rebuilding the Tories from 198 seats to 330 seats, he has helped eradicate the Lib Dems.
Those things aren't forgotten.
Look at Gove's statement today, nothing but praise for the Prime Minister.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
He mentioned house claim in letter. You can't build within 5 miles of heathland apparently.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
I appreciate that the 34 strong Brooke clan were forecibly prevented by the pater familias from exercising their vote last May, but you might like to remind yourself of the result.
He mentioned house claim in letter. You can't build within 5 miles of heathland apparently.
I considered that, but that is not enough to justify saying "we cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed". So he must have meant something else.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
Indeed - and these best hopes amount to a majority of 100+ in a 600-seat House.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
I appreciate that the 34 strong Brooke clan were forecibly prevented by the pater familias from exercising their vote last May, but you might like to remind yourself of the result.
LOL
yes John I remember you forecasting what a huge majority you would have and dismissing the idea of another coalition out of hand,
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
You say that now, but there are four months of campaigning to come, followed by a highly emotional vote in which LEAVE is likely to lose, on the basis of a pack of lies told by the prime minister. It's THAT which will poison the Tory party for years. ....
If Cameron and Osborne played it honest and fair and did not try and stack the debate with a Project Fear approach then they would be seen as even handed within all the party.
No they wouldn't. A sizable portion would as they repeatedly demonstrate not regard any position other than Leave to be an honest or fair assessment, and view any comment from the pair as unfairly stacking the debate, and would make the same claims that are being now no matter what the pair did. The claims just have more credence given the deal is at the least not a great one and, to my mind, crap.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June.
I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning.
Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
I think we need a new PB poll on the EU ref., the last one after the previous deal a few weeks ago was 74% Leave, 26% Remain. I would like to see the numbers now, however it's Saturday so a weekend might not be the best time.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm on the fence - but will likely not campaign.
With every fibre of my being I have tried to agree with the PM, but I cannot on this issue. Not only the most successful Tory leader for decades, but also a fellow Brasenose man - and I don't like to disagree with someone who is so often so right. But, with a heavy heart, this time I think he is wrong. I'm not as convinced about Leave to campaign for it - but won't be voting any other way.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
My old constituency chairman who is someone who thinks it is a shame Bill Cash has never been Tory leader, has been in contact today, his view.
Dave's giving us a referendum, he's not loaded it, he's let the cabinet oppose him, there's been no rancour, no resignations, may the best side win.
There's not going to be a split, he's not going to let that [expletives deleted] Corbyn become PM on my watch. We're not making the mistakes of 1992 to 1997 again.
Precisely so. You have to be a member of the tribe to understand it.
i think that Corbyn concentrates minds wonderfully.
He does indeed.
To continue my Social War analogy, neither Italians nor Romans sought to bring the war outside Italy. In the Provinces, Roman and Italian nobles, businessmen, and soldiers continued to work together, and presented a united front, well aware they'd hang together or hang separately. So will centre-right voters against Corbyn.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
He mentioned house claim in letter. You can't build within 5 miles of heathland apparently.
Ah, cheers for the clarification, that comment in Gove’s statement did leave me a little puzzled. Presumably the rule was based on an EU directive?
As an aside, Michael Gove’s statement was indeed excellent, not solely for the decision to support Leave, but for the articulate and cogent reasoning behind it. – Boris's principles imho, are looking a little tarnished today.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
He mentioned house claim in letter. You can't build within 5 miles of heathland apparently.
Ah, cheers for the clarification, that comment in Gove’s statement did leave me a little puzzled. Presumably the rule was based on an EU directive?
As an aside, Michael Gove’s statement was indeed excellent, not solely for the decision to support Leave, but for the articulate and cogent reasoning behind it. – Boris's principles imho, are looking a little tarnished today.
One of the best political statements I've read for ages.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
You are thus included in the number of the righteous.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
What is Zac saying re the deal???
Nothing yet. I think he wanted City protection like Boris, I expect he will end up taking whatever line Boris does given how much his campaign is going to rely on having Boris out there.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
What is Zac saying re the deal???
Nothing yet. I think he wanted City protection like Boris, I expect he will end up taking whatever line Boris does given how much his campaign is going to rely on having Boris out there.
No they wouldn't. A sizable portion would as they repeatedly demonstrate not regard any position other than Leave to be an honest or fair assessment, and view any comment from the pair as unfairly stacking the debate, and would make the same claims that are being now no matter what the pair did. The claims just have more credence given the deal is at the least not a great one and, to my mind, crap.
That's an objective observation. Cameron has been selling this vessel of excrement for a couple of weeks, the Leaver ministers and MPs get to start today.... stacking the debate
The government gets to use public funds to "inform people of the governments view" the Leave campaign doesn't ... stacking the debate
True, its not stacked as much as he wanted to, because his party wouldn't wear it, he tried the dodgy wording of the question, he removed the usual "purdah" period, there were various abortive attempts to gerrymander the franchise.... stacking the debate.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
You are thus included in the number of the righteous.
I also agree that in the event of Leave or Remain I don't want Dave to step down. I do want Osborne to take the hit if Leave wins, but only because I don't rate him as chancellor, though not as poorly as Mr Brooke.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
What is Zac saying re the deal???
Nothing yet. I think he wanted City protection like Boris, I expect he will end up taking whatever line Boris does given how much his campaign is going to rely on having Boris out there.
The Eastern suburbs are very UKIPpy, but Central is very Corbyny! Does he piss the latter off in order to get votes that are already in the bag? Surely the suburban Tories will vote for him no matter what... Id vote for him if he campaigned for REMAIN!
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
I appreciate that the 34 strong Brooke clan were forecibly prevented by the pater familias from exercising their vote last May, but you might like to remind yourself of the result.
LOL
yes John I remember you forecasting what a huge majority you would have and dismissing the idea of another coalition out of hand,
Always confident that Dave would continue as PM and on a number of occasions was a reassuring presence to some of the more excitable and impressionable younger posters. Plus taking a few bob off a certain Cheshire farmer now resident in warmer climes. Didn't expect the catacleggism of the yellow ghastlies (formely our glorious coalition partners) and the consequent impact.
Out of interest I wonder how many actual Conservative grassroots activists who pound the streets, canvass, attend party meetings etc post here? From memory, there's only TSE, MarqueeMark, Mortimer, Richard Nabavi, David Herdson and me.
I think we devide 3-2 for LEAVE with me still on the fence, albeit sliding back to Remain, but I don't think any of us believe we are heading for anything like civil war.
PS and Tissue Price too I believe.
I am campaigning for Zac at the moment, out canvassing for the last three weekends and I donate £80 per year plus my membership fee. I'll be out campaigning for Leave.
You are thus included in the number of the righteous.
I also agree that in the event of Leave or Remain I don't want Dave to step down. I do want Osborne to take the hit if Leave wins, but only because I don't rate him as chancellor, though not as poorly as Mr Brooke.
Mr Max I will quite happily accept that I am perhaps at the more agressive end of rating Osborne, however I have noted over the last few years the distance between me and the rest of PB has narrowed considerably.
No they wouldn't. A sizable portion would as they repeatedly demonstrate not regard any position other than Leave to be an honest or fair assessment, and view any comment from the pair as unfairly stacking the debate, and would make the same claims that are being now no matter what the pair did. The claims just have more credence given the deal is at the least not a great one and, to my mind, crap.
That's an objective observation. Cameron has been selling this vessel of excrement for a couple of weeks, the Leaver ministers and MPs get to start today.... stacking the debate
The government gets to use public funds to "inform people of the governments view" the Leave campaign doesn't ... stacking the debate
True, its not stacked as much as he wanted to, because his party wouldn't wear it, he tried the dodgy wording of the question, he removed the usual "purdah" period, there were various abortive attempts to gerrymander the franchise.... stacking the debate.
I don't doubt he has tried to stack the debate. I just doubt the other side would have been so kind as to not accuse him of doing so, even if he he had not - they are politicians too, and it seems staggeringly unlikely to me the sorts of lead campaigners Leave has would have given him the benefit of the doubt. I also think there's enough time left and enough factors in Leave's favour that blaming the 'stacking' of the debate should Remain win (though I hope it doesn't come to that), as is clearly the plan, will just be an excuse. If we lose, if we fail to overcome what Remain can throw at us, it's on the Leave camp.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
I appreciate that the 34 strong Brooke clan were forecibly prevented by the pater familias from exercising their vote last May, but you might like to remind yourself of the result.
LOL
yes John I remember you forecasting what a huge majority you would have and dismissing the idea of another coalition out of hand,
Always confident that Dave would continue as PM and on a number of occasions was a reassuring presence to some of the more excitable and impressionable younger posters. Plus taking a few bob off a certain Cheshire farmer now resident in warmer climes. Didn't expect the catacleggism of the yellow ghastlies (formely our glorious coalition partners) and the consequent impact.
Me neither Mr O, like you I was thinking coalition2.
However as the old PB saying goes Dave has always been a lucky general and general Cameron won't be leading the troops in to battle next time round.
This Tory member of 40 years standing is beside hmself with tolerance, emolience and tenderness. Philip is my next door MP and he won't suffer any backlash, neither will Dom Raab whichever side he chooses.
Precisely.
It's only the more loony Leavers who talk about 'betrayal' and who are so conceited or wilfully blind that they think the only people who are principled are those voting Leave.
The more sensible of us accept that there are arguments on either side. I read Michael Gove's excellent statement with great interest (although I was a bit puzzled by his claim that the EU prevents us building houses), and I respect those who argue coherently on the other side.
Yes but that;s party talk, you need voters and you've lost too many of them. Currently your best hopes rest on an uncertain voting system and a bad choice of leader from your main opponents.
I appreciate that the 34 strong Brooke clan were forecibly prevented by the pater familias from exercising their vote last May, but you might like to remind yourself of the result.
LOL
yes John I remember you forecasting what a huge majority you would have and dismissing the idea of another coalition out of hand,
Always confident that Dave would continue as PM and on a number of occasions was a reassuring presence to some of the more excitable and impressionable younger posters. Plus taking a few bob off a certain Cheshire farmer now resident in warmer climes. Didn't expect the catacleggism of the yellow ghastlies (formely our glorious coalition partners) and the consequent impact.
Me neither Mr O, like you I was thinking coalition2.
However as the old PB saying goes Dave has always been a lucky general and general Cameron won't be leading the troops in to battle next time round.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June. I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning. Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
Clash "should I stay or go?" stay with me baby orbison "running scared" Presley "its now or never" Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
Always confident that Dave would continue as PM and on a number of occasions was a reassuring presence to some of the more excitable and impressionable younger posters. Plus taking a few bob off a certain Cheshire farmer now resident in warmer climes. Didn't expect the catacleggism of the yellow ghastlies (formely our glorious coalition partners) and the consequent impact.
It's going to be an interesting tapdance for Cameron to stay in the hot seat in the event of any sort of Leave win, especially if it by any margin, unlikely I know. Then again Corbyn was unlikely a Labour leader... Yes, he can appoint a few sceptics to the cabinet, but he will have been on TV telling whoppers for the preceding month, and the voters are likely to notice.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June. I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning. Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
Clash "should I stay or go?" stay with me baby orbison "running scared" Presley "its now or never" Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June. I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning. Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
Clash "should I stay or go?" stay with me baby orbison "running scared" Presley "its now or never" Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
Always confident that Dave would continue as PM and on a number of occasions was a reassuring presence to some of the more excitable and impressionable younger posters. Plus taking a few bob off a certain Cheshire farmer now resident in warmer climes. Didn't expect the catacleggism of the yellow ghastlies (formely our glorious coalition partners) and the consequent impact.
It's going to be an interesting tapdance for Cameron to stay in the hot seat in the event of any sort of Leave win, especially if it by any margin, unlikely I know. Then again Corbyn was unlikely a Labour leader... Yes, he can appoint a few sceptics to the cabinet, but he will have been on TV telling whoppers for the preceding month, and the voters are likely to notice.
Not really.
I accept the will of the British people and will seek a new trading arrangement with the EU and begin the 2 year process of leaving and consult with the public over what kind of partnership we should seek to ensure our continued prosperity and good relationship with the other European nations.
If Remain wins how does a Leave leadership candidate answer the question, "If you win, will you in fact leave?"
There seem to be four possible answers to this:
1. No, I backed Leave but Remain won. The issue is now closed for a generation.
2. Not immediately, but I will hold another referendum in a few years.
3. I will hold another referendum as soon as it looks winnable.
4. I will immediately leave the EU without a referendum.
4 is obviously out of the question if Remain has just won.
1 is probably the answer most voters would accept but surely makes the candidate no better than a Remainer.
Surely one has to answer 2 or 3 and of those, 2 will be seen as the deceptive never-really-do-it option. So there will be pressure to answer 3 as candidates will seek to outbid each other. Some may even talk about 4.
One of the candidates will become leader and will be under constant pressure to get a move on and hold another referendum.
The voters, meanwhile, will be thinking that the whole thing is settled.
In his last SC meeting, Trump regales the crowd with the (probably apocryphal) story of General Pershing summarily executing Muslim terrorists with bullets dipped in pigs' blood...
'The standout topic, however, was terrorism and national security. Trump repeated – favorably – an apparent myth about how General John Pershing summarily executed dozens of Muslim prisoners in the Philippines with tainted ammunition during a guerilla war against the occupying United States.
“He took fifty bullets, and he dipped them in pig’s blood,” Trump said. “And he had his men load his rifles and he lined up the fifty people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the fiftieth person he said ‘You go back to your people and you tell them what happened.’ And for 25 years there wasn’t a problem, okay?”
The story appears to be a hoax spread via e-mail forwards, according to rumor tracker Snopes.com, with no evidence it occurred.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June. I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning. Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
Clash "should I stay or go?" stay with me baby orbison "running scared" Presley "its now or never" Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
Chicago - If you Leave me now Led Zep - The Song Remains the Same Paul Simon - 50 Ways to Leave your lover.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'm signed up to do deliveries for REMAIN. I'll do canvassing and GOTV as well.
Listening to Chris Grayling he made the point that he thought that DC had done his best but that he would campaign to leave. He gave the impression that the cabinet outers hold no animosity to DC and he was very positive about the government being united in the programme of government
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June. I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning. Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
Clash "should I stay or go?" stay with me baby orbison "running scared" Presley "its now or never" Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
Listening to Chris Grayling he made the point that he thought that DC had done his best but that he would campaign to leave. He gave the impression that the cabinet outers hold no animosity to DC and he was very positive about the government being united in the programme of government
That's the point I made earlier. There's no animosity or rancour in the party.
I don't understand why no one else is taking the prediction of August 8th being the last day of the Euro seriously
What's driving the predicition ?
Hunchman posted an article from Armstrong Economics predicting that because if the time between Bretton Woods and the Euro, that the Euro would collapse on the 208th day of 2016.
I don't understand why no one else is taking the prediction of August 8th being the last day of the Euro seriously
You know you never know. There could be another flare up at any moment, the eurozone crisis has been going on for 6-7 years now and is still simmering. It's like the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
I don't understand why no one else is taking the prediction of August 8th being the last day of the Euro seriously
You know you never know. There could be another flare up at any moment, the eurozone crisis has been going on for 6-7 years now and is still simmering. It's like the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
I just love the absurd specificity of the prediction. Not: "late in 2016 we expect to see sovereign spreads widen, putting pressure on the Euro and likely leading to its break up."
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June.
I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning.
Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
With Or Without EU - U2 I Just Can't Get EU Out Of My Head - Kylie Minogue We Will Rock EU - Queen
I'll be campaigning for LEAVE.
I don't really care who gets official designation - GO or Vote Leave, it's the final result I'm interested in. (But did I cringe to see Galloway on stage last night?! From the way Galloway was introduced, with Farage talking about the need to put differences aside and work together to get the right result, I had started to hope it would be a prominent Vote Leave member, and that Farage was announcing a merger of the two campaigns).
I'm having a hard time trying to explain the whole EU referendum gig to my 16 year old. He's an instinctive Trotskyist Labour leaner, but he actually doesn't feel the need for political union in Europe, he just wants the trade bits, and he's against mass immigration. He's confusing me!
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June.
I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning.
Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
With Or Without EU - U2 I Just Can't Get EU Out Of My Head - Kylie Minogue We Will Rock EU - Queen
I'll be campaigning for LEAVE.
I don't really care who gets official designation - GO or Vote Leave, it's the final result I'm interested in. (But did I cringe to see Galloway on stage last night?! From the way Galloway was introduced, with Farage talking about the need to put differences aside and work together to get the right result, I had started to hope it would be a prominent Vote Leave member, and that Farage was announcing a merger of the two campaigns).
"The Scottish First Minister said that it would “be best for Scotland to be in the EU as an independent member state”. "
I thought we had been through that once, and the case had been exposed as self-collapsing and its expression dishonest. Have they identified their currency yet.
Presumably she will annex cloud-cuckoo land at the same time a la mini-me Putin :-), and expel some more abusive members of the SNP who have no connection to the SNP.
Listening to Chris Grayling he made the point that he thought that DC had done his best but that he would campaign to leave. He gave the impression that the cabinet outers hold no animosity to DC and he was very positive about the government being united in the programme of government
Cameron has been and will continue to be labelled a liar, idiot or traitor by loud voices in the Leave campaign. If the senior Tory figures can avoid being dragged into that, and the party can avoid an extended bitter reaction after the result, whatever it is, after that, I will be very impressed. Well done them if they can manage that.
Charles Moore "Authority forgets a dying king.” "This is Mr Cameron’s domestic political problem about the deal he has been fighting for. There aren’t quite enough people – in the media, in the parliamentary party, in the Cabinet – who any longer see it in their interest to hail his puny gains as a Roman triumph. Mr Cameron no longer secures their future (a fact which, by the way, is bad news for the leadership ambitions of George Osborne). "
"The Scottish First Minister said that it would “be best for Scotland to be in the EU as an independent member state”. "
I thought we had been through that once, and the case had been exposed as self-collapsing and its expression dishonest. Have they identified their currency yet.
Presumably she will annex cloud-cuckoo land at the same time a la mini-me Putin :-), and expel some more abusive members of the SNP who have no connection to the SNP.
With the oil price where it is, I suspect Yes would be heavily defeated in a rematch.
LabourLeave Jeremy has stopped funding LabourInforBritain campaign- I think that gives us a wee hint of his real view! https://t.co/IQdtmunePH
Corbyn is forced to make a statement supporting Remain because that's what his party opponents want to, and he can afford to cede ground to them on a subject of lesser importance for him. However it doesn't mean he will actively aid Remain, as the above proves.
If Remain wins how does a Leave leadership candidate answer the question, "If you win, will you in fact leave?"
There seem to be four possible answers to this: .......................... The voters, meanwhile, will be thinking that the whole thing is settled.
5. I will insist theat the EC keeps to the letter and spirit of the agreements made and I will ensure that all our people will work in the best interests of the UK.
Has the MP for Boston, or the MP for Thanet S. made statements yet?
I think the pattern that will emerge is that marginal MPs who can't afford to lose votes to UKIP and MPs in seats where UKIP came close in the last GE will come out for Leave just in case.
As an aside, how many PBers will be out campaigning and canvassing during the referendum (and for which side?)
I will be most unlikely to be campaigning/canvassing during the referendum. I love campaigning but, I don't think I'll have the time or energy this time.
I'll do my bit for Remain.
I'm editing PB from the 1st of June until the 21st of June.
I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning.
Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
"The Scottish First Minister said that it would “be best for Scotland to be in the EU as an independent member state”. "
I thought we had been through that once, and the case had been exposed as self-collapsing and its expression dishonest. Have they identified their currency yet.
Presumably she will annex cloud-cuckoo land at the same time a la mini-me Putin :-), and expel some more abusive members of the SNP who have no connection to the SNP.
If Brexit leads to IndyScot it's unquestionable that the latter applying to join the EU would be treated as a new application, hence would need to join the Euro. It would also almost certainly need to join Schengen, thus taking it out of the CTA.
Comments
"Real change in our relationship with the European Union
Our commitment to you:
For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:
1. give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
by the end of 2017
2. commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone
3. reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic
4. reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market
5. back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape."
These are the benchmarks against which David Cameron should be judged. He has delivered on 1 - but that didn't require getting anything from Brussels. Failing to deliver on 2 would have had Cameron swinging from a lamp-post (politically speaking). And this renegotiation hasn't delivered on 3, 4 or 5. Disappointing is barely adequate.

I think that the next leader will need to have been in one of the top 7-8 non-PM Cabinet jobs; CoE, FS, HS, Justice, Education, Health, Defence, Business at a push - so if they're not there already they'll need to be reshuffled in.
A campaign based on lies will not bring a party together post referendum.
We should demand second referendum if terms of deal change btw.
Corbyn will make sure the Tory party remains in a single piece, so it won't break up, but there will be a reaction against the pro-european leadership from the inside.
So which ever cabinet minister supports Leave will get an advantage and those who support Remain will have a disadvantage.
Poison drained.
Dave is revered in the party, his legacy is his rebuilding the Tories from 198 seats to 330 seats, he has helped eradicate the Lib Dems.
Those things aren't forgotten.
Look at Gove's statement today, nothing but praise for the Prime Minister.
yes John I remember you forecasting what a huge majority you would have and dismissing the idea of another coalition out of hand,
I don't think I'm going to have the energy to do any campaigning.
Though, you'll get a few thread headers with the headline "Europe - The Final Countdown"
I would like to see the numbers now, however it's Saturday so a weekend might not be the best time.
With every fibre of my being I have tried to agree with the PM, but I cannot on this issue. Not only the most successful Tory leader for decades, but also a fellow Brasenose man - and I don't like to disagree with someone who is so often so right. But, with a heavy heart, this time I think he is wrong. I'm not as convinced about Leave to campaign for it - but won't be voting any other way.
As an aside, Michael Gove’s statement was indeed excellent, not solely for the decision to support Leave, but for the articulate and cogent reasoning behind it. – Boris's principles imho, are looking a little tarnished today.
Gove is very, very much underestimated....
I only took a week off - and weekends etc - and I felt ecstatic when that exit poll was released. What were you feeling? Interstellar?
Boris, I confess, I don't care about.
The government gets to use public funds to "inform people of the governments view" the Leave campaign doesn't ... stacking the debate
True, its not stacked as much as he wanted to, because his party wouldn't wear it, he tried the dodgy wording of the question, he removed the usual "purdah" period, there were various abortive attempts to gerrymander the franchise.... stacking the debate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtbwEz7_4a8
(This post was brought to you courtesy of hunchman Forecasts Ltd.)
However as the old PB saying goes Dave has always been a lucky general and general Cameron won't be leading the troops in to battle next time round.
stay with me baby
orbison "running scared"
Presley "its now or never"
Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer
"Leave Right Now"
"Trapped"
It has previous.
I accept the will of the British people and will seek a new trading arrangement with the EU and begin the 2 year process of leaving and consult with the public over what kind of partnership we should seek to ensure our continued prosperity and good relationship with the other European nations.
There seem to be four possible answers to this:
1. No, I backed Leave but Remain won. The issue is now closed for a generation.
2. Not immediately, but I will hold another referendum in a few years.
3. I will hold another referendum as soon as it looks winnable.
4. I will immediately leave the EU without a referendum.
4 is obviously out of the question if Remain has just won.
1 is probably the answer most voters would accept but surely makes the candidate no better than a Remainer.
Surely one has to answer 2 or 3 and of those, 2 will be seen as the deceptive never-really-do-it option. So there will be pressure to answer 3 as candidates will seek to outbid each other. Some may even talk about 4.
One of the candidates will become leader and will be under constant pressure to get a move on and hold another referendum.
The voters, meanwhile, will be thinking that the whole thing is settled.
'The standout topic, however, was terrorism and national security. Trump repeated – favorably – an apparent myth about how General John Pershing summarily executed dozens of Muslim prisoners in the Philippines with tainted ammunition during a guerilla war against the occupying United States.
“He took fifty bullets, and he dipped them in pig’s blood,” Trump said. “And he had his men load his rifles and he lined up the fifty people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the fiftieth person he said ‘You go back to your people and you tell them what happened.’ And for 25 years there wasn’t a problem, okay?”
The story appears to be a hoax spread via e-mail forwards, according to rumor tracker Snopes.com, with no evidence it occurred.
The moral of the tale, according to Trump: “We better start getting tough and we better start getting vigilant, and we better start using our heads or we’re not gonna have a country, folks.”'
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/trump-hails-torture-mass-killings-pigs-blood-ammo-sc
Led Zep - The Song Remains the Same
Paul Simon - 50 Ways to Leave your lover.
Hard to see VoteLeave not winning designation now after six cab mins flock to their banner - especially after GO's miscalculation last night
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.119725494
Jeremy has stopped funding LabourInforBritain campaign- I think that gives us a wee hint of his real view! https://t.co/IQdtmunePH
There could be another flare up at any moment, the eurozone crisis has been going on for 6-7 years now and is still simmering.
It's like the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
But "the Euro will end on the 208th day of 2016".
I Just Can't Get EU Out Of My Head - Kylie Minogue
We Will Rock EU - Queen
I'll be campaigning for LEAVE.
I don't really care who gets official designation - GO or Vote Leave, it's the final result I'm interested in. (But did I cringe to see Galloway on stage last night?! From the way Galloway was introduced, with Farage talking about the need to put differences aside and work together to get the right result, I had started to hope it would be a prominent Vote Leave member, and that Farage was announcing a merger of the two campaigns).
.@fentonaw @Daniel_Woods786 true and more feel brexit would make them worse off, and expect remain to win (62%)
so if im a nat should i vote leave to hasten along the glorious day or remain cos Nicola says so ?
Just Can't Get EUnough
His constituency is the most marginal in the country, he can't afford the risk of losing a single vote to UKIP.
I thought we had been through that once, and the case had been exposed as self-collapsing and its expression dishonest. Have they identified their currency yet.
Presumably she will annex cloud-cuckoo land at the same time a la mini-me Putin :-), and expel some more abusive members of the SNP who have no connection to the SNP.
'I only had to look into my own heart to know what the Scottish people wanted'
"This is Mr Cameron’s domestic political problem about the deal he has been fighting for. There aren’t quite enough people – in the media, in the parliamentary party, in the Cabinet – who any longer see it in their interest to hail his puny gains as a Roman triumph. Mr Cameron no longer secures their future (a fact which, by the way, is bad news for the leadership ambitions of George Osborne). "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12165843/Who-is-left-to-hail-David-Camerons-puny-gains-as-a-Roman-triumph.html
However it doesn't mean he will actively aid Remain, as the above proves.
I think the pattern that will emerge is that marginal MPs who can't afford to lose votes to UKIP and MPs in seats where UKIP came close in the last GE will come out for Leave just in case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ_tOw6lfIY