One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Thank you very much, Richard. I greatly appreciate that and I've always admired your principled stance too - and your willingness to engage constructively with those of us who disagree with you.
I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph - and it's something that moves those of us on the pro-EU side to anger too. I completely accept that far too many pro-EU politicians are too cowardly to say it how they truly see it.
I'm not a hugely frequent PB poster, as you know. I'm more of a lurker and I only usually pop up and post if nobody already has (or looks like they will) make the point that I wish to see made. That's why such a high proportion of my posts are about the EU. I'm not as disproportionately obsessed by it as it might appear - it's just that on all other topics there are many others here who make the points that I'd wish to see raised.
I fear I am disproportionately obsessed but then everyone needs a hobby and it was either this or drug dealing. Not sure which one would be worse for my reputation to be honest :-)
Hah. The glorious variety of pb. You are one of the 4% that think Cameron's renegotiations went TOO FAR.
You've no idea how much of a relief it is to know that. I thought I was one of the 4 people not one of the 4% of people...
But, if it really is 4% then there ought to be a few more like me on PB surely?
I think there are. Roger I think would be one. Some of the other left wing posters as well. EPG? Mark Senior I would assume. I am pretty sure you are not as isolated as you think.
I think it's fascinating how many different views there are on the EU.
My view is simple. The EU is not terrible, or awful, or evil, it's just not for the UK.
The truth is that a lot of European countries are sub-scale. (There's a reason why the Baltics all had currency pegs to the Deutschmark before they joined the Euro, for example.) They have been dealt a different hand to the UK, and have reacted accordingly.
We're not in that position. At 1% of the world population, and with a top five currency, we are viable on our own. We don't have to make the compromises others have to. What annoys me is when people don't realise *why* the Belgians or the Portuguese think differently to us. It's not a conspiracy, it's because they come at this with a different history, geography, politics and economics.
It may be that the EU falls apart. It may be that the Eurozone follows the path of Switzerland in building a coherent integrated whole. Who knows? But what is clear is that we are the odd man out in Europe, and it doesn't work for us.
Let's leave, not because we think the Europeans are out to get us, or because we think it's all some crazy conspiracy to f*ck the British, but because it's the right thing for us, and for them.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
It's ok. Loosely (very loosely) based on the Tempest.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
Go to see The Play That Goes Wrong, it's wonderful.
I just don't seem to be able to get it to work, to get the Trump value "36.0", for example.
Hmmm... tomorrow, if I have time, I may use the excellent PythonAnywhere to build a reader for that
As an aside, the JSON in that page is wrapped in a return_json(...); which needs to be stripped out before you can import it into anything. If you used a text editor, stripped that out, and then used the Medium.com thingy it might work.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
It's ok. Loosely (very loosely) based on the Tempest.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
Go to see The Play That Goes Wrong, it's wonderful.
Will it be enjoyed by an 8 year old and a 5 year old?
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
It's ok. Loosely (very loosely) based on the Tempest.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
Go to see The Play That Goes Wrong, it's wonderful.
Will it be enjoyed by an 8 year old and a 5 year old?
Hah. The glorious variety of pb. You are one of the 4% that think Cameron's renegotiations went TOO FAR.
You've no idea how much of a relief it is to know that. I thought I was one of the 4 people not one of the 4% of people...
But, if it really is 4% then there ought to be a few more like me on PB surely?
I think there are. Roger I think would be one. Some of the other left wing posters as well. EPG? Mark Senior I would assume. I am pretty sure you are not as isolated as you think.
I think it's fascinating how many different views there are on the EU.
My view is simple. The EU is not terrible, or awful, or evil, it's just not for the UK.
The truth is that a lot of European countries are sub-scale. (There's a reason why the Baltics all had currency pegs to the Deutschmark before they joined the Euro, for example.) They have been dealt a different hand to the UK, and have reacted accordingly.
We're not in that position. At 1% of the world population, and with a top five currency, we are viable on our own. We don't have to make the compromises others have to. What annoys me is when people don't realise *why* the Belgians or the Portuguese think differently to us. It's not a conspiracy, it's because they come at this with a different history, geography, politics and economics.
It may be that the EU falls apart. It may be that the Eurozone follows the path of Switzerland in building a coherent integrated whole. Who knows? But what is clear is that we are the odd man out in Europe, and it doesn't work for us.
Let's leave, not because we think the Europeans are out to get us, or because we think it's all some crazy conspiracy to f*ck the British, but because it's the right thing for us, and for them.
Whilst I would agree with that to a large extent (I don't think EU leaders are evil as such) I also do strongly agree with Charles Moore's point about Oligarchy. As a small state advocate (and yes Innocent_ Abroad now I am home I will reply to your questions the other day) the EU in its conception and execution is just about everything I am opposed to.
So whilst I do not consider it evil or malevolent right now, its direction of travel towards a single state -with all that implies about individual or even mass movement power versus the oligarchy - makes me very fearful of what it will become. Already it is well recognised by companies that there is no point any longer lobbying individual Governments. Just go to Brussels and lobby the Commission and Parliament. That way you get what you want for the whole continent rather than just one small part of it.
The EU is the ultimate expression of the Big State and the ultimate Libertarian nightmare.
I think the EU is a great concept executed badly. The biggest flaw is undoubtedly single currency, and that needs a lot of fixing. In the meantime, those countries lucky to escape its gravity needed to have protections against its dominance, but it has been unwilling to accommodate that. So a cleavage will need to be made.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
I don't think so because Banks is funding Grassroots Out which is cross party and has not descended into childish bickering.
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
I don't think so because Banks is funding Grassroots Out which is cross party and has not descended into childish bickering.
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
Don't really get this argument - can't Cummings just be sacked....?
I think the EU is a great concept executed badly. The biggest flaw is undoubtedly single currency, and that needs a lot of fixing. In the meantime, those countries lucky to escape its gravity needed to have protections against its dominance, but it has been unwilling to accommodate that. So a cleavage will need to be made.
Bizarrely, the single currency is surprisingly popular, with Italy the only country in the zone where support even approaches 50:50.
Partly that's fear of change. Partly it's a reflection that it's really difficult to borrow if no-one uses your currency.
If we want to borrow, we issue Sterling Bonds.
If Mexico or Hungary or Brazil or Malaysia or Poland or Venezuela needs to borrow, they issue foreign currency bonds. Savers in those countries would rather own Dollars or Euros than the local currency. And so the government is forced to borrow in a currency they cannot control.
Being a part of the Eurozone at least means that you can beg the Germans and the ECB for help if you get in trouble. Although, as Greece proved, this is far from a costless option.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
I don't think so because Banks is funding Grassroots Out which is cross party and has not descended into childish bickering.
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
As someone who has supported Vote Leave over Leave.EU I can see that there are some serious problems at Vote Leave. Some of these appear to be due to the personalities of people like Cummings and Elliott but there are also some basic problems with their tactics. Foremost in this is the apparent belief that the Leave campaign should be working towards the idea of a second vote. This is not held by many but it is something that has been advocated by some of the senior Vote Leave figures and I think it is stupid position to take.
I am hopeful that this gets sorted but I am also very relieved to see the Grassroots Out campaign getting underway no matter who is funding it. It seems to have the potential to be far more effective than Vote Leave.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
It's ok. Loosely (very loosely) based on the Tempest.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
Go to see The Play That Goes Wrong, it's wonderful.
Will it be enjoyed by an 8 year old and a 5 year old?
Yes, it has plenty of slapstick and physical theatre. Some of the jokes will be missed but they will like the silliness.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
It's the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq. The only difference is that Blair was better at lying, so more silly people (such as me) believed it.
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
Hubris. Its what happens when you surround yourself with nodding dogs. I've still no idea of the outcome but its going to be a hell of a battle now for Cameron
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Yeah, but they're - what - 15% of the population, right???
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Yeah, but they're - what - 15% of the population, right???
Cameron's USP was that he wan't Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband- the two most useless Labour leaders imaginable. I don't think anyone trusts politicians anymore- that finished in the early 70's
"It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. It would have been so much better to say, look, we will be campaigning for reform in the EU in the way of my Bloomberg speech but this is going to take a very long time and in the meantime I have promises to keep so we will have our referendum: are we in or are we out?
I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained. After being the dominating figure in UK politics for the best part of a decade we have this week seen the start of the end of Cameron. And over this bloody rubbish. It is tragic."
***
I think he can recover if he gets an emphatic win for REMAIN, which is still quite possible. I say "recover" inasmuch as he will exit on some kind of bogus "high" - until the deal is showed to be worthless years later (long after he's gone).
Any other result and he's damaged - or ruined. But in a sense this was inevitable, as soon as he said (why?) that he wouldn't last the next parliament he was lame-duck-in-waiting, the Eurobotch has just accelerated things
I don't. Cameron's USP, especially after the Blair years, was that people trusted what he said. They didn't necessarily agree with it of course but he seemed trustworthy. I fear he has lost that for good.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
I don't think so because Banks is funding Grassroots Out which is cross party and has not descended into childish bickering.
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
Don't really get this argument - can't Cummings just be sacked....?
I wouldn't be surprised if they were hoping to poach Gove. I doubt that will happen now.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
I don't think so because Banks is funding Grassroots Out which is cross party and has not descended into childish bickering.
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
Don't really get this argument - can't Cummings just be sacked....?
I wouldn't be surprised if they were hoping to poach Gove. I doubt that will happen now.
By the sounds of it, removing Cummings might be more productive than getting any Tory big beast.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
Well thanks, but how do I go about automating this? There are numerous similar files.
What is your ultimate goal?
To use the rcp_avg values for each candidate as inputs to my spreadsheet which calculates the expected delegate outcome for each state.
There is a separate RCP file for each state (that one, "4151", is for South Carolina.)
I just need to extract the rcp_avg for Trump, etc in each cell of my sheet.
I tried your file with the parameters =ImportJSON("http://project3.amoral.org/static/sata", "/poll/rcp_avg/candidate/value", "noHeaders") and it works, but is giving me the entire data for all polls for all candidates.
Well thanks, but how do I go about automating this? There are numerous similar files.
What is your ultimate goal?
To use the rcp_avg values for each candidate as inputs to my spreadsheet which calculates the expected delegate outcome for each state.
There is a separate RCP file for each state (that one, "4151", is for South Carolina.)
I just need to extract the rcp_avg for Trump, etc in each cell of my sheet.
I tried your file with the parameters =ImportJSON("http://project3.amoral.org/static/sata", "/poll/rcp_avg/candidate/value", "noHeaders") and it works, but is giving me the entire data for all polls for all candidates.
OK. I'm going to bed now, but (assuming I remember :-)) I'll see what I can do tomorrow
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Fuck off and don't quote me. Ever again.
Imagine how partisan the decided Remainers are if this is neutral
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Have you stopped to consider the possibility that when almost everyone thinks the deal has been poor and hurts the Remain campaign, from hard right to hard left, that you might be one what's wrong? I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem to be so strident in your belief that Cameron always does the right thing on any major issue that it hurts your credibility.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
I agree. Obviously for my own purposes in choosing how to vote, I wanted to know what the alternative was. We've covered that now, and I've made up my mind pretty firmly.
You are right that, on the completely separate question of how people in general will vote, it won't be so detailed. It will be economic fear in favour of Remain, immigration in favour of Leave. It won't be details about whether Cameron has protected the City from Eurozone hegemony.
Richard- I'm certainly out of your group think quota.....
But, as much as I hate to say this, Cameron has been right on the migrant question, probably the biggest political challenge for Europe since the second world war. And as much as we can blame Blair for Iraq, and Cameron for Libya- at some point, with modern media there were going to be established routes for overwhelming migration into Europe happening at some time from poorer countries.
But Cameron's policy to maintain oversees funding and to try and deal with migration questions humanely within their own countries has such foresight that I almost forgive him for sanctioning the badger cull.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph?/i> Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
Surely you meant:
You're a. Doctor in. Leicester they. Will. Tend. T.o.a.g.r.e.e.w.i.t.h. You. They want. Their meth. Adone.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
I agree. Obviously for my own purposes in choosing how to vote, I wanted to know what the alternative was. We've covered that now, and I've made up my mind pretty firmly.
You are right that, on the completely separate question of how people in general will vote, it won't be so detailed. It will be economic fear in favour of Remain, immigration in favour of Leave. It won't be details about whether Cameron has protected the City from Eurozone hegemony.
Phew - I thought my years of admiration at the sensibleness and political nous of your posts was all for naught!
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
The issue of what Leave means is not particularly pertinent now but w8ll become so closer to the referendum.
The nature of Reserve Banking and Sterling Union was obscure until it became a focus of the Sindyref.
I am for Remain but wouldn't be too bothered by leave if we stayed in the EEA and maintained the four freedoms, as second choice. I suspect that the EEA would not be acceptable to those whose primary motivation is to reduce immigration.
Have you stopped to consider the possibility that when almost everyone thinks the deal has been poor and hurts the Remain campaign, from hard right to hard left, that you might be one what's wrong? I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem to be so strident in your belief that Cameron always does the right thing on any major issue that it hurts your credibility.
Of course I might be wrong. I'm just giving my honest opinion, as I always have here.
But we have been through this kind of over-reaction before, have we not? I spent much of the five years of the last parliament suggesting people should calm down. Voters don't take that much notice of lots of things which the politically-engaged get excited about.
Richard- I'm certainly out of your group think quota.....
But, as much as I hate to say this, Cameron has been right on the migrant question, probably the biggest political challenge for Europe since the second world war. And as much as we can blame Blair for Iraq, and Cameron for Libya- at some point, with modern media there were going to be established routes for overwhelming migration into Europe happening at some time from poorer countries.
But Cameron's policy to maintain oversees funding and to try and deal with migration questions humanely within their own countries has such foresight that I almost forgive him for sanctioning the badger cull.
I would agree with that. When Cameron first made his intentions clear about the refugee crisis and showed he was not just going to try and follow Merkel's almost criminal idiocy I thought he showed both a lot of courage and a huge amount of sense. He has been proved absolutely right in the way he has directed the British efforts and in his resistance to the knee jerk reaction displayed by so much of the rest of Europe.
Many people will survive the crisis who may not otherwise have done because of Cameron. Many, many more who might have survived will die because of Merkel.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
The issue of what Leave means is not particularly pertinent now but w8ll become so closer to the referendum.
The nature of Reserve Banking and Sterling Union was obscure until it became a focus of the Sindyref.
I am for Remain but wouldn't be too bothered by leave if we stayed in the EEA and maintained the four freedoms, as second choice. I suspect that the EEA would not be acceptable to those whose primary motivation is to reduce immigration.
EURef does not equal Sindyref, though.
For a start, the UK is currently a strong and successful independent country that has an economic strategy more diverse than taking a position on commodity prices.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
I agree. Obviously for my own purposes in choosing how to vote, I wanted to know what the alternative was. We've covered that now, and I've made up my mind pretty firmly.
You are right that, on the completely separate question of how people in general will vote, it won't be so detailed. It will be economic fear in favour of Remain, immigration in favour of Leave. It won't be details about whether Cameron has protected the City from Eurozone hegemony.
But what actually has the deal done which wasn't otherwise already there? The guarantee that we will not be subject to ever closer union is moot, since such a treaty change would have to pass a referendum here. The red card system is an extension of an existing system, and which doesn't actually seem to be that effective given the number of Parliaments you require on your side, and the timescales involved. The only new thing is the emergency brake, which the EU decide if and when it is appropriate.
I'm a card carrying PB Tory, and I think Cameron is alright, but this is a laughable deal. Partly why I want him to campaign for out (.. I'm keeping an eye out for those pigs out the window).
Let’s be frank: David Cameron was never going to achieve a fundamental restructuring of Britain’s relationship with the EU. Certainly not in a few months. Britain is a member of the single market, with all of the advantage that entails — and the disadvantages too. Given the density of existing treaties and regulations, it was always going to be difficult for Britain to keep everything that it likes about Europe and discard everything else. In any case, these are all treaties and regulations that the UK itself negotiated long ago.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Have you stopped to consider the possibility that when almost everyone thinks the deal has been poor and hurts the Remain campaign, from hard right to hard left, that you might be one what's wrong? I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem to be so strident in your belief that Cameron always does the right thing on any major issue that it hurts your credibility.
All credibility was lost the day he tried to deny we paid the £1.7bn bill to the EU in full.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Have you stopped to consider the possibility that when almost everyone thinks the deal has been poor and hurts the Remain campaign, from hard right to hard left, that you might be one what's wrong? I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem to be so strident in your belief that Cameron always does the right thing on any major issue that it hurts your credibility.
All credibility was lost the day he tried to deny we paid the £1.7bn bill to the EU in full.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek colleagues earlier in the week, I jested that I would shortly be learning Greek to keep up. Greek doctors now outnumber the WASPs in our dept 2:1; with only 10% of our medical staff being WASP.
It is clearly a fairly tolerant group as far as migration is concerned, but the local non medical staff are not going to discriminate against the colleagues.
You may get a different response on a building site, but I am not sure at all even there. The ones I meet via work seem happy enough to fraternise with furriners.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
Gosh- the Euro debate is so vitriolic amongst you righties that us metropolitan lefties feel like intervening to do a spot of social work to patch things up.
FWIW- as almost the worst kind of metropolitan, smug, affluent, Euro loving, Guardian reading, sanctimonious, annoying, liberal lefty living in the leafy vineyards of Tuscany with properties in Italy and England with an Italian wife......I am genuinely undecided about the EU vote. Furthermore I have befriended a group of young, African, Islamic, male migrants who I meet (and like) regularly...but I feel that Europe cannot cope with what is happening, and the backlash could be quite horrible.
So, the prospect of returning to a little England, in control of it's borders is quite appealing.
But what actually has the deal done which wasn't otherwise already there? The guarantee that we will not be subject to ever closer union is moot, since such a treaty change would have to pass a referendum here. The red card system is an extension of an existing system, and which doesn't actually seem to be that effective given the number of Parliaments you require on your side, and the timescales involved. The only new thing is the emergency brake, which the EU decide if and when it is appropriate.
Without repeating myself at too much length: on benefits, not much (less than I expected). I agree that the red card stuff is nothing much. The competitiveness bit is fine as far as it goes but didn't require renegotiation - no EU leader, not even Hollande, is going to say they don't want to improve competitiveness.
The ever-closer union bit is significant because it's the first time the EU has acknowledged that we're not all going in the same direction. Previously the formal position was that we were, albeit at different speeds.
The Eurozone protection (the most important bit for me personally) is better than I expected. We've been through it several times. Others don't agree with me on it being better; fair enough. (Of course we will have less protection if we leave - a key point for me). The public don't care anyway.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
The issue of what Leave means is not particularly pertinent now but w8ll become so closer to the referendum.
The nature of Reserve Banking and Sterling Union was obscure until it became a focus of the Sindyref.
I am for Remain but wouldn't be too bothered by leave if we stayed in the EEA and maintained the four freedoms, as second choice. I suspect that the EEA would not be acceptable to those whose primary motivation is to reduce immigration.
EURef does not equal Sindyref, though.
For a start, the UK is currently a strong and successful independent country that has an economic strategy more diverse than taking a position on commodity prices.
(Whatever Alanbrooke likes to think)
Sure, it is a different referendum, but it does demonstrate how obscure issues can suddenly become pivotal. I expect that the EEA/EFTA issue vs glorious isolation will come into its own closer to the time.
I will not be the only one who sees that as a sort of second class EU membership, though some see that as a pro rather than a con.
Let’s be frank: David Cameron was never going to achieve a fundamental restructuring of Britain’s relationship with the EU. Certainly not in a few months. Britain is a member of the single market, with all of the advantage that entails — and the disadvantages too. Given the density of existing treaties and regulations, it was always going to be difficult for Britain to keep everything that it likes about Europe and discard everything else. In any case, these are all treaties and regulations that the UK itself negotiated long ago.
There there ( pats head) run along we know best. About sums that up. Sanctimonious bastards. Exactly what causes resentment.
But what actually has the deal done which wasn't otherwise already there? The guarantee that we will not be subject to ever closer union is moot, since such a treaty change would have to pass a referendum here. The red card system is an extension of an existing system, and which doesn't actually seem to be that effective given the number of Parliaments you require on your side, and the timescales involved. The only new thing is the emergency brake, which the EU decide if and when it is appropriate.
Without repeating myself at too much length: on benefits, not much (less than I expected). I agree that the red card stuff is nothing much. The competitiveness bit is fine as far as it goes but didn't require renegotiation - no EU leader, not even Hollande, is going to say they don't want to improve competitiveness.
The ever-closer union bit is significant because it's the first time the EU has acknowledged that we're not all going in the same direction. Previously the formal position was that we were, albeit at different speeds.
The Eurozone protection (the most important bit for me personally) is better than I expected. We've been through it several times. Others don't agree with me on it being better; fair enough. (Of course we will have less protection if we leave - a key point for me). The public don't care anyway.
To be honest, I've not read much about the eurozone protections, if you have time could you do a quick summary (if not, I can research it a little later)?
Yes, it is nice to have the formal declaration from the EU, but I would argue it is moot. Not because it can easily be revoked, but because further such integration would require treaty change which would be subject to a referendum where we can assess if it is too much integration for us to bear.
To be honest, I've not read much about the eurozone protections, if you have time could you do a quick summary (if not, I can research it a little later)?
Yes, it is nice to have the formal declaration from the EU, but I would argue it is moot. Not because it can easily be revoked, but because further such integration would require treaty change which would be subject to a referendum where we can assess if it is too much integration for us to bear.
I think I need to go to bed, but I'll point you to one of my previous posts on another occasion.
I take your point on the treaty-change point, but this addresses to some extent the insidious creeping ever-closer union which has been a problem for years. What I think will happen with this new deal is ever-closer union will tend to occur in the Eurozone, which will become the focus of the core countries - which makes sense for them as well as us, of course.
It's not ideal, but I think it's better than it was before the renegotiation.
You're right Richard- but the European anti Islamic backlash as well is really worrying. Many thousands have drowned in the sea because of the traffikers. But, the hatred against Islam is really quite frightening, and something that I only see escalating as many more Muslim refugees flee to Europe.
It seems that it was probably very sensible to support Islamic asylum seekers within Islamic countries as the numbers have ratcheted up.
Richard- I'm certainly out of your group think quota.....
But, as much as I hate to say this, Cameron has been right on the migrant question, probably the biggest political challenge for Europe since the second world war. And as much as we can blame Blair for Iraq, and Cameron for Libya- at some point, with modern media there were going to be established routes for overwhelming migration into Europe happening at some time from poorer countries.
But Cameron's policy to maintain oversees funding and to try and deal with migration questions humanely within their own countries has such foresight that I almost forgive him for sanctioning the badger cull.
I would agree with that. When Cameron first made his intentions clear about the refugee crisis and showed he was not just going to try and follow Merkel's almost criminal idiocy I thought he showed both a lot of courage and a huge amount of sense. He has been proved absolutely right in the way he has directed the British efforts and in his resistance to the knee jerk reaction displayed by so much of the rest of Europe.
Many people will survive the crisis who may not otherwise have done because of Cameron. Many, many more who might have survived will die because of Merkel.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek colleagues earlier in the week, I jested that I would shortly be learning Greek to keep up. Greek doctors now outnumber the WASPs in our dept 2:1; with only 10% of our medical staff being WASP.
It is clearly a fairly tolerant group as far as migration is concerned, but the local non medical staff are not going to discriminate against the colleagues.
You may get a different response on a building site, but I am not sure at all even there. The ones I meet via work seem happy enough to fraternise with furriners.
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Have you stopped to consider the possibility that when almost everyone thinks the deal has been poor and hurts the Remain campaign, from hard right to hard left, that you might be one what's wrong? I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem to be so strident in your belief that Cameron always does the right thing on any major issue that it hurts your credibility.
As a token blue europhile here, I'd obviously rather not be in the company of 'out whatever' mps and meps, montie, Katie Hopkins and arron banks... I'm surprised so many pbers are.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek colleagues earlier in the week, I jested that I would shortly be learning Greek to keep up. Greek doctors now outnumber the WASPs in our dept 2:1; with only 10% of our medical staff being WASP.
It is clearly a fairly tolerant group as far as migration is concerned, but the local non medical staff are not going to discriminate against the colleagues.
You may get a different response on a building site, but I am not sure at all even there. The ones I meet via work seem happy enough to fraternise with furriners.
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
There. Sorted.
It's highly depressing.... but i think many, even those that protest loudly, know in their hearts that this is disturbingly close to the truth.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek colleagues earlier in the week, I jested that I would shortly be learning Greek to keep up. Greek doctors now outnumber the WASPs in our dept 2:1; with only 10% of our medical staff being WASP.
It is clearly a fairly tolerant group as far as migration is concerned, but the local non medical staff are not going to discriminate against the colleagues.
You may get a different response on a building site, but I am not sure at all even there. The ones I meet via work seem happy enough to fraternise with furriners.
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
There. Sorted.
The problem is, your failure to engage and just throw insults, isolates you, not him. It depresses me to think just how close this is to the reality out there.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
There. Sorted.
Leicester is middle England in many ways, socially as well as geographically. I am not at all convinced that middle England is as "socially conservative" as kippers assume. For example, I live outside the city, and our vicar was a fairly out lesbian and nobody seemed bothered. Indeed the only grievance seemed to be that her sermons were rubbish.
And the WWC of Leicester love Rhiyad Mahrez (one of those pesky North African Muslims with a French passport) as well as Jamie Vardy. Ngolo Kante (another French passport holder of Malian Muslim descent) as much as Danny Drinkwater, and they love Robert Huth (German), Christian Fuchs (Austrian) and Marcin Wasilewski (Polish) as much as anyone. Britons are far more open minded than some kippers seem to believe. Indeed I see this as something Britons can be legitimately proud of.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.
Absolutely, which is why I think your continued obsession with demanding what Leave stands for in intricate detail is nonsense too. If people don't follow the details of the problems, they sure aren't going to follow the more complicated details of the solution.
The issue of what Leave means is not particularly pertinent now but w8ll become so closer to the referendum.
The nature of Reserve Banking and Sterling Union was obscure until it became a focus of the Sindyref.
I am for Remain but wouldn't be too bothered by leave if we stayed in the EEA and maintained the four freedoms, as second choice. I suspect that the EEA would not be acceptable to those whose primary motivation is to reduce immigration.
EURef does not equal Sindyref, though.
For a start, the UK is currently a strong and successful independent country that has an economic strategy more diverse than taking a position on commodity prices.
(Whatever Alanbrooke likes to think)
Sure, it is a different referendum, but it does demonstrate how obscure issues can suddenly become pivotal. I expect that the EEA/EFTA issue vs glorious isolation will come into its own closer to the time.
I will not be the only one who sees that as a sort of second class EU membership, though some see that as a pro rather than a con.
Both sides (if I may repeat) are dodging the issue of the EEA. We keep apart from ever closer union and maintain the principals of the single market. In other words not much difference between in or out. It indicates that the argument on both sides is without much merit. I find that this has pushed, reduced, the Outers into the darkest of motives and positions.
In closing I must add I find SeanT increasingly distasteful in an irredeemably obnoxious way.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
There. Sorted.
Leicester is middle England in many ways, socially as well as geographically. I am not at all convinced that middle England is as "socially conservative" as kippers assume. For example, I live outside the city, and our vicar was a fairly out lesbian and nobody seemed bothered. Indeed the only grievance seemed to be that her sermons were rubbish.
And the WWC of Leicester love Rhiyad Mahrez (one of those pesky North African Muslims with a French passport) as well as Jamie Vardy. Ngolo Kante (another French passport holder of Malian Muslim descent) as much as Danny Drinkwater, and they love Robert Huth (German), Christian Fuchs (Austrian) and Marcin Wasilewski (Polish) as much as anyone. Britons are far more open minded than some kippers seem to believe. Indeed I see this as something Britons can be legitimately proud of.
I'm curious Richard - do you talk politics to many people outside of London, over 30 and who earn under £50k/pa.
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Strange, in Leicester the people that I talk to mostly fall into that criteria and are voting Remain. It depends who you meet with.
You're a doctor in Leicester. They will tend to agree with you. They want their methadone.
I mean the staff.
While chatting to one of my Greek
I fraternise with foreign jonnies all the time. I live in London, dontya know. Which is now 55% non-native-British. Yes, 55%.
Most of my friends are white Brits but plenty aren't. We all get along.
Speaking as an affluent thriller writer, not forced to fight for bricklaying jobs, I am happy with large scale immigration from the Old EU, and from much of the New EU. That said, Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria trouble me, because of the Roma element. Call me an horrible racist but they do bring social problems. They just DO.
Beyond the EU I am happy with immigration from China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, Korea, South east Asia, likewise Latin America, North America, and the white Dominions. I would restrict immigration from the Caribbean and parts of black Africa due to worries about crime, and I would completely forbid immigration from the entire Muslim world because their ridiculous and hateful religion has entered a stage of terminal psychopathy.
There. Sorted.
Leicester is middle England in many ways, socially as well
The City maybe atypical, but the County is very much more "middle England".
I do not think that Britons are anywhere near as "socially conservative" as assumed by pb kippers. Look at the acceptance of gay marriage for example. Even UKIP seem to have come around to it.
On topic - John McDonnell will not be the next leader of the Labour Party. He is less popular than Jeremy with MPs and MEPs nominating plus there won't be any charity nominations no matter how much pressure. McDonnell would have to make 51 nominations (now that MEPs are included) and he simply won't be able to do that. If you fancy a bet beyond Dan Jarvis or Lisa Nandy then Owen Smith is much better placed than McDonnell and available at similar odds.
Interesting comments from Nigeria's new president:
"Nigeria's president has warned his fellow citizens to stop trying to make asylum claims in Britain, saying that their reputation for criminality has made it hard for them to be "accepted" abroad. Muhammadu Buhari, the tough ex-general elected last year, said those who had joined the migrant exodus to Europe were doing so purely for economic reasons rather than because they were in danger."
Muslim men in the Labour party are intent on stopping muslim women from becoming labour councillors. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35504185 The BBC is telling a very woeful story. Well fancy that!
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
Yeah. I think it would have been better, from Cameron's point of view to say "It's 40 years since we had a vote. This is the EU today. Take it or leave it" rather than embark on this sham negotiation.
If Cameron had said that then the next question would have been which side he was on. If he'd answered that question he wouldn't have got a majority.
Basicaly, as a Con voter I gave Dave the benefit of the doubt. he has been a reasonably good PM in difficult circumtanes. The plan, negotiate a better deal and put it to the coumtr,y was sound.
I took him at his word. (I also took Blair at his word on the 45 mins blah blah blah).
Howwever,what we have been offered (or what DC been haggled ); is to be frank; bollocks and nationally humiliating.
Dave had the historic chance to stand up for England, and be associated with Churchill and Thatcher. Instead he will be listed alongside Chamberlain and Heath. What a shame.
Basicaly, as a Con voter I gave Dave the benefit of the doubt. he has been a reasonably good PM in difficult circumtanes. The plan, negotiate a better deal and put it to the coumtr,y was sound.
I took him at his word. (I also took Blair at his word on the 45 mins blah blah blah).
Howwever,what we have been offered (or what DC been haggled ); is to be frank; bollocks and nationally humiliating.
Dave had the historic chance to stand up for England, and be associated with Churchill and Thatcher. Instead he will be listed alongside Chamberlain and Heath. What a shame.
The shame is that you believed in two PM's that are both charlatans, tricksters and frauds.
I'm not much bothered who SeanT likes and doesn't like, so long as he doesn't expect us all to feel the same way (as he sometimes seems to). But knowing someone's nationality is in my experience only of limited help in finding out what they're like, so it's a pity that it dominates debate here and further afield.
A possible new element is that it may be that Assad and his Shia and Russian mates are actually going to win, more or less. If they successfully remove most of the non-ISIS opposition, then say to the West - "OK, now we're going to clear out ISIS. Are you for us, against us, or neutral?" - what do we do then? And if they win that bit too and the country returns to a fragile peace with occasional terrorist attacks, will it make more people try to flee, or fewer? My impression, with zilch local knowledge, is that people are mostly fleeing the bombing and fighting, and if that goes away the majority will feel that there are maybe worse things to do than go back. But maybe not - in which case we'll have a new set of refugee camps like the Palestinians for perhaps a generation.
It's speculation now, but let's hope some contingency thought is being given to this. Up to now, we mostly seem to have just been reacting, or talking about reacting.
Assuming remain win, which I consider quite likely I would expect us to eventually move into a super federal european state. At that point I expect that to add to islamic terrorism there to spring up nationalist independence terrorist groups in every country. History shows us that it takes 100's of years to let the grudges go. CF ira, eta, an gof, etc who have all held a grudge and gained popular support for fighting against the overarching takeover nation.
How do we thing a united states of europe will cope when their officials are being used as targets of opportunity by nationalist freedom fighters.
Many might think this is exaggeration but frankly I see it as a given that it will happen. Some will never accept pan european rule
I'm not much bothered who SeanT likes and doesn't like, so long as he doesn't expect us all to feel the same way (as he sometimes seems to). But knowing someone's nationality is in my experience only of limited help in finding out what they're like, so it's a pity that it dominates debate here and further afield.
A possible new element is that it may be that Assad and his Shia and Russian mates are actually going to win, more or less. If they successfully remove most of the non-ISIS opposition, then say to the West - "OK, now we're going to clear out ISIS. Are you for us, against us, or neutral?" - what do we do then? And if they win that bit too and the country returns to a fragile peace with occasional terrorist attacks, will it make more people try to flee, or fewer? My impression, with zilch local knowledge, is that people are mostly fleeing the bombing and fighting, and if that goes away the majority will feel that there are maybe worse things to do than go back. But maybe not - in which case we'll have a new set of refugee camps like the Palestinians for perhaps a generation.
It's speculation now, but let's hope some contingency thought is being given to this. Up to now, we mostly seem to have just been reacting, or talking about reacting.
Honestly, in my (gloriously uninformed) opinion, I think there is no alternative than for the West to essentially redraw the map in that part of the world into something which stands a chance of stability in the long run (a state for the Kurds, a state or states for Sunnis, a state or states for Shia, etc.), even if that would draw out the tedious claims of "colonialism".
Basicaly, as a Con voter I gave Dave the benefit of the doubt. he has been a reasonably good PM in difficult circumtanes. The plan, negotiate a better deal and put it to the coumtr,y was sound.
I took him at his word. (I also took Blair at his word on the 45 mins blah blah blah).
Howwever,what we have been offered (or what DC been haggled ); is to be frank; bollocks and nationally humiliating.
Dave had the historic chance to stand up for England, and be associated with Churchill and Thatcher. Instead he will be listed alongside Chamberlain and Heath. What a shame.
Exactly my sentiments. An OK domestic Prime Minister, as disaster re the EU.
Man who went to South East Asia wants everyone else in the country to keep out black people but wants to let in South East Asians Do all the rest of us get to legislate our personal preferences too?
Man who went to South East Asia wants everyone else in the country to keep out black people but wants to let in South East Asians Do all the rest of us get to legislate our personal preferences too?
Isnt that what new labour did exactly. Make it easier for people they preferred to come here?
Man who went to South East Asia wants everyone else in the country to keep out black people but wants to let in South East Asians Do all the rest of us get to legislate our personal preferences too?
Isnt that what new labour did exactly. Make it easier for people they preferred to come here?
I'm sure Blair did not want to let in South East Asians because he had fun in Thailand.
no he just wanted to prefer people likely to vote labour. Letting people in who you had fun with is harmless because the rest of us can take it or leave it. Letting in folk who are going to impose an unwanted government on the rest of us fucks us all
I'm not much bothered who SeanT likes and doesn't like, so long as he doesn't expect us all to feel the same way (as he sometimes seems to). But knowing someone's nationality is in my experience only of limited help in finding out what they're like, so it's a pity that it dominates debate here and further afield.
A possible new element is that it may be that Assad and his Shia and Russian mates are actually going to win, more or less. If they successfully remove most of the non-ISIS opposition, then say to the West - "OK, now we're going to clear out ISIS. Are you for us, against us, or neutral?" - what do we do then? And if they win that bit too and the country returns to a fragile peace with occasional terrorist attacks, will it make more people try to flee, or fewer? My impression, with zilch local knowledge, is that people are mostly fleeing the bombing and fighting, and if that goes away the majority will feel that there are maybe worse things to do than go back. But maybe not - in which case we'll have a new set of refugee camps like the Palestinians for perhaps a generation.
It's speculation now, but let's hope some contingency thought is being given to this. Up to now, we mostly seem to have just been reacting, or talking about reacting.
It does seem likely that Assad/Putin will win. Then the long-term camps scenario also seems plausible.
I hope we are planning for this but I'm starting to think the Government will do nothing but self-immolate for the rest of this Parliament.
no he just wanted to prefer people likely to vote labour. Letting people in who you had fun with is harmless because the rest of us can take it or leave it. Letting in folk who are going to impose an unwanted government on the rest of us fucks us all
Which is not to say cameron and the tories are not doing exactly the same thing they are two sides of the same coin
I'm not much bothered who SeanT likes and doesn't like, so long as he doesn't expect us all to feel the same way (as he sometimes seems to). But knowing someone's nationality is in my experience only of limited help in finding out what they're like, so it's a pity that it dominates debate here and further afield.
A possible new element is that it may be that Assad and his Shia and Russian mates are actually going to win, more or less. If they successfully remove most of the non-ISIS opposition, then say to the West - "OK, now we're going to clear out ISIS. Are you for us, against us, or neutral?" - what do we do then? And if they win that bit too and the country returns to a fragile peace with occasional terrorist attacks, will it make more people try to flee, or fewer? My impression, with zilch local knowledge, is that people are mostly fleeing the bombing and fighting, and if that goes away the majority will feel that there are maybe worse things to do than go back. But maybe not - in which case we'll have a new set of refugee camps like the Palestinians for perhaps a generation.
It's speculation now, but let's hope some contingency thought is being given to this. Up to now, we mostly seem to have just been reacting, or talking about reacting.
Honestly, in my (gloriously uninformed) opinion, I think there is no alternative than for the West to essentially redraw the map in that part of the world into something which stands a chance of stability in the long run (a state for the Kurds, a state or states for Sunnis, a state or states for Shia, etc.), even if that would draw out the tedious claims of "colonialism".
I think we may have to do that eventually but we don't have anything like the collective will needed to do it now. We'd need to accept military casualties on our side, civilian casualties, creating new pockets of hatred towards us, and say about all these things that they were bad but better than the alternative if we didn't act. And there would the "colonialism" thing, as you say.
I think we could get to that point but our mindset is miles away from it right now.
Comments
My view is simple. The EU is not terrible, or awful, or evil, it's just not for the UK.
The truth is that a lot of European countries are sub-scale. (There's a reason why the Baltics all had currency pegs to the Deutschmark before they joined the Euro, for example.) They have been dealt a different hand to the UK, and have reacted accordingly.
We're not in that position. At 1% of the world population, and with a top five currency, we are viable on our own. We don't have to make the compromises others have to. What annoys me is when people don't realise *why* the Belgians or the Portuguese think differently to us. It's not a conspiracy, it's because they come at this with a different history, geography, politics and economics.
It may be that the EU falls apart. It may be that the Eurozone follows the path of Switzerland in building a coherent integrated whole. Who knows? But what is clear is that we are the odd man out in Europe, and it doesn't work for us.
Let's leave, not because we think the Europeans are out to get us, or because we think it's all some crazy conspiracy to f*ck the British, but because it's the right thing for us, and for them.
There's a callback function wrapping the data, intended for when a script on a web page converts the JSON data.
Remove the return_json( from the start and the ); from the end to get normal JSON.
As an aside, the JSON in that page is wrapped in a return_json(...); which needs to be stripped out before you can import it into anything. If you used a text editor, stripped that out, and then used the Medium.com thingy it might work.
So whilst I do not consider it evil or malevolent right now, its direction of travel towards a single state -with all that implies about individual or even mass movement power versus the oligarchy - makes me very fearful of what it will become. Already it is well recognised by companies that there is no point any longer lobbying individual Governments. Just go to Brussels and lobby the Commission and Parliament. That way you get what you want for the whole continent rather than just one small part of it.
The EU is the ultimate expression of the Big State and the ultimate Libertarian nightmare.
Evil? No. Dangerous? Very much so.
Another very good post Robert
I think Cummings is an issue. There has been a high turnover of staff at Vote Leave which suggests it is a toxic working environment.
Here you go: http://project3.amoral.org/static/sata
I'll have another look tomorrow.
Nice to have the occasional bet come in.
Something I did tip on here a week or so ago.
Partly that's fear of change. Partly it's a reflection that it's really difficult to borrow if no-one uses your currency.
If we want to borrow, we issue Sterling Bonds.
If Mexico or Hungary or Brazil or Malaysia or Poland or Venezuela needs to borrow, they issue foreign currency bonds. Savers in those countries would rather own Dollars or Euros than the local currency. And so the government is forced to borrow in a currency they cannot control.
Being a part of the Eurozone at least means that you can beg the Germans and the ECB for help if you get in trouble. Although, as Greece proved, this is far from a costless option.
I am hopeful that this gets sorted but I am also very relieved to see the Grassroots Out campaign getting underway no matter who is funding it. It seems to have the potential to be far more effective than Vote Leave.
Really, stand back guys, and look at it again.
- A voodoo poll in the Telegraph? Posted here, of all places, apparently in all seriousness?
- Charles Moore? I mean, really? Have you guys not read any Charles Moore pieces in the last few years?
- "the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq." LOL! (OK, that was SeanT, but even so...)
- David Herdson panicky??
- "Unquestionably a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU..".
- "Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives"
- "It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. ...I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained."
The reality: nothing much has changed, the public will get the impression that Cameron has got some kind of a deal but is over-selling it like all politicians, life goes on, the Leave side are still in chaos, the economic risks and the European migration crisis remain the two big factors and those haven't changed this week.
Hubris. Its what happens when you surround yourself with nodding dogs. I've still no idea of the outcome but its going to be a hell of a battle now for Cameron
Most who fall into that category that I know are voting Leave....
Holyrood voting intentions of those who voted NO #indyref
CON 38%
LAB 34%
SNP 13%
LD 12%
UKIP 3%
There is a separate RCP file for each state (that one, "4151", is for South Carolina.)
I just need to extract the rcp_avg for Trump, etc in each cell of my sheet.
I tried your file with the parameters
=ImportJSON("http://project3.amoral.org/static/sata", "/poll/rcp_avg/candidate/value", "noHeaders") and it works, but is giving me the entire data for all polls for all candidates.
You are right that, on the completely separate question of how people in general will vote, it won't be so detailed. It will be economic fear in favour of Remain, immigration in favour of Leave. It won't be details about whether Cameron has protected the City from Eurozone hegemony.
But, as much as I hate to say this, Cameron has been right on the migrant question, probably the biggest political challenge for Europe since the second world war. And as much as we can blame Blair for Iraq, and Cameron for Libya- at some point, with modern media there were going to be established routes for overwhelming migration into Europe happening at some time from poorer countries.
But Cameron's policy to maintain oversees funding and to try and deal with migration questions humanely within their own countries has such foresight that I almost forgive him for sanctioning the badger cull.
You're a. Doctor in. Leicester they. Will. Tend. T.o.a.g.r.e.e.w.i.t.h. You. They want. Their meth. Adone.
The nature of Reserve Banking and Sterling Union was obscure until it became a focus of the Sindyref.
I am for Remain but wouldn't be too bothered by leave if we stayed in the EEA and maintained the four freedoms, as second choice. I suspect that the EEA would not be acceptable to those whose primary motivation is to reduce immigration.
But we have been through this kind of over-reaction before, have we not? I spent much of the five years of the last parliament suggesting people should calm down. Voters don't take that much notice of lots of things which the politically-engaged get excited about.
Many people will survive the crisis who may not otherwise have done because of Cameron. Many, many more who might have survived will die because of Merkel.
For a start, the UK is currently a strong and successful independent country that has an economic strategy more diverse than taking a position on commodity prices.
(Whatever Alanbrooke likes to think)
I'm a card carrying PB Tory, and I think Cameron is alright, but this is a laughable deal. Partly why I want him to campaign for out (.. I'm keeping an eye out for those pigs out the window).
Let’s be frank: David Cameron was never going to achieve a fundamental restructuring of Britain’s relationship with the EU. Certainly not in a few months.
Britain is a member of the single market, with all of the advantage that entails — and the disadvantages too. Given the density of existing treaties and regulations, it was always going to be difficult for Britain to keep everything that it likes about Europe and discard everything else. In any case, these are all treaties and regulations that the UK itself negotiated long ago.
While chatting to one of my Greek colleagues earlier in the week, I jested that I would shortly be learning Greek to keep up. Greek doctors now outnumber the WASPs in our dept 2:1; with only 10% of our medical staff being WASP.
It is clearly a fairly tolerant group as far as migration is concerned, but the local non medical staff are not going to discriminate against the colleagues.
You may get a different response on a building site, but I am not sure at all even there. The ones I meet via work seem happy enough to fraternise with furriners.
FWIW- as almost the worst kind of metropolitan, smug, affluent, Euro loving, Guardian reading, sanctimonious, annoying, liberal lefty living in the leafy vineyards of Tuscany with properties in Italy and England with an Italian wife......I am genuinely undecided about the EU vote. Furthermore I have befriended a group of young, African, Islamic, male migrants who I meet (and like) regularly...but I feel that Europe cannot cope with what is happening, and the backlash could be quite horrible.
So, the prospect of returning to a little England, in control of it's borders is quite appealing.
The ever-closer union bit is significant because it's the first time the EU has acknowledged that we're not all going in the same direction. Previously the formal position was that we were, albeit at different speeds.
The Eurozone protection (the most important bit for me personally) is better than I expected. We've been through it several times. Others don't agree with me on it being better; fair enough. (Of course we will have less protection if we leave - a key point for me). The public don't care anyway.
I will not be the only one who sees that as a sort of second class EU membership, though some see that as a pro rather than a con.
Yes, it is nice to have the formal declaration from the EU, but I would argue it is moot. Not because it can easily be revoked, but because further such integration would require treaty change which would be subject to a referendum where we can assess if it is too much integration for us to bear.
I take your point on the treaty-change point, but this addresses to some extent the insidious creeping ever-closer union which has been a problem for years. What I think will happen with this new deal is ever-closer union will tend to occur in the Eurozone, which will become the focus of the core countries - which makes sense for them as well as us, of course.
It's not ideal, but I think it's better than it was before the renegotiation.
Anyway, night all.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/ben-judah-feels-a-stranger-in-his-native-london/
It seems that it was probably very sensible to support Islamic asylum seekers within Islamic countries as the numbers have ratcheted up.
The problem is, your failure to engage and just throw insults, isolates you, not him. It depresses me to think just how close this is to the reality out there.
And the WWC of Leicester love Rhiyad Mahrez (one of those pesky North African Muslims with a French passport) as well as Jamie Vardy. Ngolo Kante (another French passport holder of Malian Muslim descent) as much as Danny Drinkwater, and they love Robert Huth (German), Christian Fuchs (Austrian) and Marcin Wasilewski (Polish) as much as anyone. Britons are far more open minded than some kippers seem to believe. Indeed I see this as something Britons can be legitimately proud of.
In closing I must add I find SeanT increasingly distasteful in an irredeemably obnoxious way.
I do not think that Britons are anywhere near as "socially conservative" as assumed by pb kippers. Look at the acceptance of gay marriage for example. Even UKIP seem to have come around to it.
England is moving on.
"Nigeria's president has warned his fellow citizens to stop trying to make asylum claims in Britain, saying that their reputation for criminality has made it hard for them to be "accepted" abroad.
Muhammadu Buhari, the tough ex-general elected last year, said those who had joined the migrant exodus to Europe were doing so purely for economic reasons rather than because they were in danger."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/12143510/Nigerians-reputation-for-crime-has-made-them-unwelcome-in-Britain-says-countrys-president.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35504185
The BBC is telling a very woeful story. Well fancy that!
If Cameron had said that then the next question would have been which side he was on. If he'd answered that question he wouldn't have got a majority.
I took him at his word. (I also took Blair at his word on the 45 mins blah blah blah).
Howwever,what we have been offered (or what DC been haggled ); is to be frank; bollocks and nationally humiliating.
Dave had the historic chance to stand up for England, and be associated with Churchill and Thatcher. Instead he will be listed alongside Chamberlain and Heath. What a shame.
A possible new element is that it may be that Assad and his Shia and Russian mates are actually going to win, more or less. If they successfully remove most of the non-ISIS opposition, then say to the West - "OK, now we're going to clear out ISIS. Are you for us, against us, or neutral?" - what do we do then? And if they win that bit too and the country returns to a fragile peace with occasional terrorist attacks, will it make more people try to flee, or fewer? My impression, with zilch local knowledge, is that people are mostly fleeing the bombing and fighting, and if that goes away the majority will feel that there are maybe worse things to do than go back. But maybe not - in which case we'll have a new set of refugee camps like the Palestinians for perhaps a generation.
It's speculation now, but let's hope some contingency thought is being given to this. Up to now, we mostly seem to have just been reacting, or talking about reacting.
How do we thing a united states of europe will cope when their officials are being used as targets of opportunity by nationalist freedom fighters.
Many might think this is exaggeration but frankly I see it as a given that it will happen. Some will never accept pan european rule
'People I talk to vary a lot. The predominant impression I have is that people are not following this in the level of detail we talk about here.'
Agree, but they do think that immigration is a major issue for this country as shown in every poll.
Do all the rest of us get to legislate our personal preferences too?
I hope we are planning for this but I'm starting to think the Government will do nothing but self-immolate for the rest of this Parliament.
I think we could get to that point but our mindset is miles away from it right now.