Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
What if the choreographed row was Cameron saying he'd vote out, unless we got a better deal? Clutching at straws now since the deal on the table is so crap.
I think Rubio is going to win N.H barring an act of God. Which may happen if that snowstorm hits hard on pensioner turnout, for some reason his base of support are pensioners.
Hardly surprising, only the oldies still read newspapers or pay attention to the TV news where the ramping for the Flamingo Kid occurs.
More polls, looks like Rubio gets a small bump and Trump stays in the low thirties. Trump remains strong amongst independents but crucially 80% of his voters say they will definitely vote Trump, Rubio is much softer at sub 60%. Can't see anyone but Trump wining, post debate polls will be interesting.
I can easily figure Rubio beating Trump by 30-25 in N.H. Only the debate and the weather can stop a Rubio victory there.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
It's also bollocks to presume that the editors and journos simply follow Rupe's commands. He influences, but he doesn't dictate.
I predict the Sun, the Sun on Sunday and the Sunday Times will come out for LEAVE. The Times.. dunno.
I'm not sure the Sundays will have different editorials.
But I'm happy to have a bet along these lines:
You win a fiver if the Sun and the Times go for Leave Flat if its split I win a fiver if they both go for Remain
McDonnell is like Corbyn, but with less charisma and broad appeal.
I think they are very different beasts. Corbyn, to give him the benefit of the doubt is misguided, but is well intentioned. I dont think he would ever swindle or intentionally harm anyone, however I also feel that it would be impossible to persuade him that a policy/position he advocates was in itself incredibly harmful. I get the impression he genuinely wants to bring about a better world. Of course his policies wouldnt do that, but that isnt the point. He has fallen into being the leader of a revolution, he hasnt sought it for its own sake.
Mcdonnell though is a different kettle of fish. There is a ruthless steel there that suggests he would do anything to bring about the changes he wishes to bring about, and he cares little about the harm it might do to those who get in the way. Most definite a post revolution soviet communist style, who would rather intern people in gulags and oppress than admit that his policies might be a failure. He will not hesitate to do whatever is necessary to achieve his aims.
Mcdonnell is a far more frightening prospect.
The Corbyn to McDonnell swap is not an easy one. It requires a leadership contest, and McDonnell lacks Corbyns charm. He may well not get the nominations, and may well lose. Surely this is the obvious flaw in the plan? .
I was surprised at just how good Mcdonnell was on Question Time, of course he got his unpleasant history with the IRA, but he handled himself fairly well. He had a lot of confidence and came across as credible.
He is better presented than Corbyn, but lacks charm.
The selectorate is not as left wing as imagined - they did back David Miliband - and may well vote for someone else over McDonnell.
Different times, different rules.
The self-selecting three-quidders have changed the game massively. Yes, the membership also backed Corbyn but in any future election, a mainstream candidate will need well over 50% of the membership to overcome the three-quidder bias. And the membership has moved to the left since last summer, never mind 2010.
I don't know if the £3 vote is inherently left wing. A new Tony Blair should be able to attract his own share of them.
Three-quidders might represent the Labour Right's best chance of getting back in given the changing membership. Them and the unions.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
"An Iraqi migrant has admitted to raping a ten year old boy in a Viennese swimming pool so ferociously that the boy had to be hospitalised for his injuries. The man said he knew it was wrong but couldn’t help himself as he hadn’t had sex in months."
Central (currently 6 Labour seats: 3 constituencies and 3 list seats
1. Richard Leonard 2. Monica Lennon 3. Mark Griffin MSP 4. Elaine Smith MSP 5. Craig Martin 6. Margaret Macculloch MSP 7. John Pentland MSP 8. LizAnne Handibode 9. Michael McMahon MSP 10. Siobhan McMahon MSP 11. Hugh Gaffney 12. Angela Feeney
Glasgow (currently 7 Labour seats, 4+3)
1. Anas Sarwar 2. Johann Lamont MSP 3. James Kelly MSP 4. Pauline McNeill 5. Bill Butler 6. Patricia Ferguson MSP 7. James Adams 8. Soryia Siddique 9. Paul Martin MSP 10. Samantha Ritchie 11. Danzala Malik MSP 12. Anne Mactaggart MSP
Highlands and Islands (currently 2 Lab seats)
1. Rhoda Grant MSP 2. David Stewart MSP 3. Leah Franchetti 4. Sean Morton 5. Sarah Atkin 6. John Erskine 7. Robina Barton 8. Gerry McGarvey
Lothian (currently 4 Lab seats, 1+3)
1. Kezia Dugdale MSP 2. Neil Findlay MSP 3. Sarah Boyack MSP 4. Daniel Johnson 5. Lesley Hinds 6. Jalal Chaudry 7. Cat Headley 8. Bernard Harkins 9. Eilidh MacDonald 10. Shami Khan 11. Ann Henderson 12. Richard Corral
Mid Scotland and Fife (in 2011 4 Labour seats, currently 5 after a by-election gain)
1. Alex Rowley MSP 2. Claire Baker MSP 3. Thomas Docherty 4. Cara Hilton MSP 5. Craig Miller 6. Johanna Boyd 7. Jamie Glackin 8. Jayne Baxter MSP 9. Jim Leishman 10. Lesley Laird 11. Altany Craik 12. Mary Lockhart
North East Scotland (currently 3 Lab seats)
1. Jenny Marra MSP 2. Lewis MacDonald MSP 3. Lesley Brennan MSP 4. Richard McCready 5. Sarah Duncan 6. Willie Young 7. Alison Evison 8. Frank Gilfeather 9. Joanne McFadden 10. Nathan Morrison
South Scotland (currently 4 Lab seats, 2+2)
1. Iain Gray MSP 2. Claudia Beamish MSP 3. Colin Smyth 4. Carol Mochan 5. Kenryck Lloyd-Jones 6. Fiona O’Donnell 7. Andrew Cochrane 8. Fiona Dugdale
West Scotland (currently 7 Lab seats, 4+3)
1. Jackie Baillie MSP 2. Neil Bibby MSP 3. Mary Fee MSP 4. Ken MacIntosh MSP 5. Johanna Baxter 6. Joe Cullinane 7. Siobhan McCready 8. Martin McCluskey 9. Moira Ramage 10. Mark McMillan 11. Gail Casey 12. Paul Sweeney
I really like Jenny Marra and am pleased to see that she is safe at 1 in her list. I think she will be left the job of picking up the detritus after the fall.
More panicky stuff from David Herdson downthread I see...
In what sense?
Clearly, every moment you are awake you are plotting how to keep Britain in the EU: what lies must you tell? Who must you buy off, persuade or blackmail?
At night, you sweat at the though of Britain leaving the EU, and the thought of an opinion poll showing a preference to leave is enough to send you retching to the bathroom.
On a poll under that article, 33,000 have voted - and 83% have said they will vote to leave. Voodoo it may be, but still that is a horrible number for remain.
On a poll under that article, 33,000 have voted - and 83% have said they will vote to leave. Voodoo it may be, but still that is a horrible number for remain.
Its in the Telegraph. I am surprised it was that close. The odd Guardianista popping in for a laugh?
"An Iraqi migrant has admitted to raping a ten year old boy in a Viennese swimming pool so ferociously that the boy had to be hospitalised for his injuries. The man said he knew it was wrong but couldn’t help himself as he hadn’t had sex in months."
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
It's also bollocks to presume that the editors and journos simply follow Rupe's commands. He influences, but he doesn't dictate.
Only half bollucks. One bolluck, so to speak?
It's the job of the editors and journos to figure out how to rid Rupert of those who challenge his power and threaten his interests.
They don't need direction - they do it all by themselves.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
It's also bollocks to presume that the editors and journos simply follow Rupe's commands. He influences, but he doesn't dictate.
I predict the Sun, the Sun on Sunday and the Sunday Times will come out for LEAVE. The Times.. dunno.
I'm not sure the Sundays will have different editorials.
But I'm happy to have a bet along these lines:
You win a fiver if the Sun and the Times go for Leave Flat if its split I win a fiver if they both go for Remain
Deal?
That's a fair and interesting bet (if we are ignoring the Sundays)
Deal.
I should warn you that I'm currently emailing James to check if I need to find some excuse to get out of this bet...
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan. One paper I am confident of backing leave is the Telegraph. Barclay Jr is a Kipper and the brothers are closet Kippers.
Fraser Nelson SNP imagined oil revenues of £8bn.Forecast now: £100m.My column on the mess an independent Scotland would be in now: https://t.co/o6IYoCY8MJ
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
It's also bollocks to presume that the editors and journos simply follow Rupe's commands. He influences, but he doesn't dictate.
I predict the Sun, the Sun on Sunday and the Sunday Times will come out for LEAVE. The Times.. dunno.
I'm not sure the Sundays will have different editorials.
But I'm happy to have a bet along these lines:
You win a fiver if the Sun and the Times go for Leave Flat if its split I win a fiver if they both go for Remain
Deal?
That's a fair and interesting bet (if we are ignoring the Sundays)
Deal.
You two must be the last of the big spenders - anyone would think you were both millionnaires. Oh wait .....
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
One paper I am confident of backing leave is the Telegraph. Barclay Jr is a Kipper and the brothers are closet Kippers.
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
One paper I am confident of backing leave is the Telegraph. Barclay Jr is a Kipper and the brothers are closet Kippers.
I think you can rest easy with the Express, as well.
The Mail is the great unknown
Based on its headlines over recent days, the Mail would appear to be a cast-iron guaranteed leaver.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
Fraser Nelson SNP imagined oil revenues of £8bn.Forecast now: £100m.My column on the mess an independent Scotland would be in now: https://t.co/o6IYoCY8MJ
Don't worry, cross-border Sunday trading will balance the books
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
I must admit I was kind of wondering what Runnymede was referring to. Both sides of the argument seem to be fairly relaxed on this thread so far.
Indeed so. Remarkably so even. Given that it's unquestionably been a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU I think we ought be be given some credit by you Leavers for managing to reach the end of Friday without actually slitting our wrists...
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
Yeah. I think it would have been better, from Cameron's point of view to say "It's 40 years since we had a vote. This is the EU today. Take it or leave it" rather than embark on this sham negotiation.
I must admit I was kind of wondering what Runnymede was referring to. Both sides of the argument seem to be fairly relaxed on this thread so far.
Indeed so. Remarkably so even. Given that it's unquestionably been a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU I think we ought be be given some credit by you Leavers for managing to reach the end of Friday without actually slitting our wrists...
I must admit I was kind of wondering what Runnymede was referring to. Both sides of the argument seem to be fairly relaxed on this thread so far.
Indeed so. Remarkably so even. Given that it's unquestionably been a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU I think we ought be be given some credit by you Leavers for managing to reach the end of Friday without actually slitting our wrists...
I would strongly suggest you postpone that, not only for the obvious reasons but also because I am still very much of the opinion that Remain will win this. In large part this is my utter inability to read the tea leaves when it comes to political predictions but also the fact that I have suffered so many disappointments in the past when it comes to politics and the EU that I almost expect the worst no matter what.
I must admit I was kind of wondering what Runnymede was referring to. Both sides of the argument seem to be fairly relaxed on this thread so far.
Indeed so. Remarkably so even. Given that it's unquestionably been a disaster of a week for those of us, such as myself, who are pro-EU I think we ought be be given some credit by you Leavers for managing to reach the end of Friday without actually slitting our wrists...
Well said sir. Good for you though I agree it has been a pants week for the EU cause. I was hoping to be able to be persuaded to be a Remainer but the crock of hippopotamus poo we're being sold ( barring some amazing rabbit and hat event) has been too much this week.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
It's the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq. The only difference is that Blair was better at lying, so more silly people (such as me) believed it.
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway. Dave should have done the honourable thing and said he got a shit deal but membership of the EU is worth it regardless. Instead he is making rediculous claims.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
Dave should have done the honourable thing and say he got a shit deal but membership of the EU is worth it regardless. Instead he has is making rediculous claims.
He does of course still have the ability to do that. If the EU were seen to be watering down or rejecting what little he does claim to have got then he could still try and make the case for REMAIN even on current terms. I am not sure it would do much good but it might salvage something for him.
I would strongly suggest you postpone that, not only for the obvious reasons but also because I am still very much of the opinion that Remain will win this. In large part this is my utter inability to read the tea leaves when it comes to political predictions but also the fact that I have suffered so many disappointments in the past when it comes to politics and the EU that I almost expect the worst no matter what.
I honestly can't read it either. My gut feeling is that Leave has received a significant lasting boost this week but I'm not sure how big. The other reason I'm struggling to read the overall contest is that my own reaction to what happened this week is so out of kilter with that of the vast majority. I'm angry with Cameron for very different reasons to (it seems) everyone else who is angry with him.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
It's the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq. The only difference is that Blair was better at lying, so more silly people (such as me) believed it.
I always liked idea of European project but I can't stand how it seems to make every politician dishonest. Cameron's just done the same as rest of them.
This is my fundamental issue with Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives. He's come back with an objectively bad deal. He's positioned it as a good deal, when it so very isn't. That means he thinks that I (and other instinctive Conservatives) are fecking stupid.
That brings back to a point made earlier; we need Labour to get their act together, and at least look like an alternative government. As it stands, I want to be able to vote 'not-Conservative' in 2020, if only to demonstrate that these muppets cannot take votes for granted.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the City, one or two significant moves on migration or benefits. Just one repatriated power? Just one?
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
It's the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq. The only difference is that Blair was better at lying, so more silly people (such as me) believed it.
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
I totally agree and feel increasingly sure that Remain have blown it, largely I'm sorry to say on account of Cameron doing his Emperor's Clothes bit on the British people. There really isn't anything there is there and we've been treated as fools. The amazing thing to me is that one can still back Leave to win the referendum at odds of 9/4 but DYOR.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
Ryan NoblesVerified account @ryanobles 3m3 minutes ago NEW: @CNN/ WMUR NH Tracking poll- Trump 28% Rubio 17% Cruz 13% Kasich 13% Bush 9%
"STILL CONSIDERING": 30%
Changes from yesterday: Trump -1 Rubio -1 Cruz 0 Kasich +1 Bush -1
Rubio's momentum temporarily stalled on the CNN tracking poll. The good news is, with 3 tracking polls going all the way till the end, there will be no gap in polling like in Iowa. A note of interest is that after the initial boost for Rubio, all 3 tracking polls now have the race frozen.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
Well at least you are perfectly honest in your support for the EU and ever closer union and the diminishing of the nation state. The end of the UK as a nation is your aim, and if not your aim, you would have helped to make it possible.
This is my fundamental issue with Cameron that has completely destroyed my trust in the Conservatives. He's come back with an objectively bad deal. He's positioned it as a good deal, when it so very isn't. That means he thinks that I (and other instinctive Conservatives) are fecking stupid.
That brings back to a point made earlier; we need Labour to get their act together, and at least look like an alternative government. As it stands, I want to be able to vote 'not-Conservative' in 2020, if only to demonstrate that these muppets cannot take votes for granted.
Seems a trait shared by Cameron and his most loyal supporters is that being seen to win an argument, even when you lose, even if you have to spin, lie, smear, edit out & silence those that speak the truth, is more important than saying it how it is / fessing up
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
What if the choreographed row was Cameron saying he'd vote out, unless we got a better deal? Clutching at straws now since the deal on the table is so crap.
Most of the EU members do actually think it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Nine countries are net contributors; that's obviously pleasing to the recipients. Of those nine, Germany, UK, France, Italy and the Netherlands are by far the largest net contributors. The UK is the largest non-EZ contributor.
The EU restrains the authoritarian impulses of the governing class in some ex-Warsaw Pact countries, gives the Baltics a (imo illusory) sense of security and props up the Balkans.
They simply don't get what our issues are. It's just perfidious Albion doing what it's always done.
It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. It would have been so much better to say, look, we will be campaigning for reform in the EU in the way of my Bloomberg speech but this is going to take a very long time and in the meantime I have promises to keep so we will have our referendum: are we in or are we out?
I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained. After being the dominating figure in UK politics for the best part of a decade we have this week seen the start of the end of Cameron. And over this bloody rubbish. It is tragic.
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
I would strongly suggest you postpone that, not only for the obvious reasons but also because I am still very much of the opinion that Remain will win this. In large part this is my utter inability to read the tea leaves when it comes to political predictions but also the fact that I have suffered so many disappointments in the past when it comes to politics and the EU that I almost expect the worst no matter what.
I honestly can't read it either. My gut feeling is that Leave has received a significant lasting boost this week but I'm not sure how big. The other reason I'm struggling to read the overall contest is that my own reaction to what happened this week is so out of kilter with that of the vast majority. I'm angry with Cameron for very different reasons to (it seems) everyone else who is angry with him.
Remain will still win, don't worry. But it'll be a bitter Pyrrhic victory for the Conservatives.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
Fair enough. I disagree but I'll defend your right to think as you do. I'm sure you'll make it to the end of the week
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
Im friends with the editor, shall I find out?
Mr Millington is the Editor, is he not ? Writes a column on Thursdays.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Moore is also a friend of Cameron's.
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
It's the most blatant lying by any prime minister since Blair and Iraq. The only difference is that Blair was better at lying, so more silly people (such as me) believed it.
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
I totally agree and feel increasingly sure that Remain have blown it, largely I'm sorry to say on account of Cameron doing his Emperor's Clothes bit on the British people. There really isn't anything there is there and we've been treated as fools. The amazing thing to me is that one can still back Leave to win the referendum at odds of 9/4 but DYOR.
Remain have hurt themselves, this week, no doubt at all.
But, there's a long way to go. The Leave campaign are incompetent, and Project Fear has still to be unleashed on us in its full glory.
Looking around I believe that the EU referendum will turn into a referendum about the government, as usual.
People are becoming less and less satisfied with the government, as is usual after an election when a government wins on false promises (every election that is). Because Tory voters are stuck with the Tory party in a GE, doesn't mean that they will not vote against it when not jeopardizing Farage or Corbyn coming to power.
Voters dissatisfied with the government's performance will get a chance to express their feelings without risking a Labour victory.
Well at least you are perfectly honest in your support for the EU and ever closer union and the diminishing of the nation state. The end of the UK as a nation is your aim, and if not your aim, you would have helped to make it possible.
I'm perfectly honest in all the views that I state here... thanks for the character reference anyway...
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
News Corp's market cap is $6bn Sky's is $25bn
Oh come on!
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
Im friends with the editor, shall I find out?
Mr Millington is the Editor, is he not ? Writes a column on Thursdays.
He is... I don't know about the second bit because I don't read it!
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
News Corp's market cap is $6bn Sky's is $25bn
Oh come on!
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
News Corp's market cap is $6bn Sky's is $25bn
Oh come on!
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
True. The real money is in the american entertainment industry not in the french Banal+ and the spanish Sogercrap.
Hah. The glorious variety of pb. You are one of the 4% that think Cameron's renegotiations went TOO FAR.
You've no idea how much of a relief it is to know that. I thought I was one of the 4 people not one of the 4% of people...
But, if it really is 4% then there ought to be a few more like me on PB surely?
I think there are. Roger I think would be one. Some of the other left wing posters as well. EPG? Mark Senior I would assume. I am pretty sure you are not as isolated as you think.
That means he thinks that I (and other instinctive Conservatives) are fecking stupid.
Not just the Tories, Cameron is acting as though everybody in Britain is too stupid to see through his rhetoric. I've never been a great fan of his, but I'm now starting to hate him.
Has anyone seen the new Cirque de Soleil? I've been offered tickets for tomorrow afternoon, and am wondering if it's worth going with my kids (and possibly OGH).
It's ok. Loosely (very loosely) based on the Tempest.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
"It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. It would have been so much better to say, look, we will be campaigning for reform in the EU in the way of my Bloomberg speech but this is going to take a very long time and in the meantime I have promises to keep so we will have our referendum: are we in or are we out?
I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained. After being the dominating figure in UK politics for the best part of a decade we have this week seen the start of the end of Cameron. And over this bloody rubbish. It is tragic."
***
I think he can recover if he gets an emphatic win for REMAIN, which is still quite possible. I say "recover" inasmuch as he will exit on some kind of bogus "high" - until the deal is showed to be worthless years later (long after he's gone).
Any other result and he's damaged - or ruined. But in a sense this was inevitable, as soon as he said (why?) that he wouldn't last the next parliament he was lame-duck-in-waiting, the Eurobotch has just accelerated things
I don't. Cameron's USP, especially after the Blair years, was that people trusted what he said. They didn't necessarily agree with it of course but he seemed trustworthy. I fear he has lost that for good.
Fair enough. I disagree but I'll defend your right to think as you do. I'm sure you'll make it to the end of the week
Likewise. I completely respect your views too. What we both have in common, I feel sure, is an understanding that we all still have to live together after the result.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Just who is being dishonest in saying they do not support ever closer union. Such support inevitably means joining the Euro. Just who is Just who are these liars who are saying they do not believe in the Euro and do not want ever closer union?
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
Im friends with the editor, shall I find out?
Far more importantly, where do they stand on FPTP vs AV?
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Did you watch This week last night?
Funny part when Miranda Green of the lib Dems was advocating REMAIN at all costs saying the dangerous bits (euro, ever closer union etc) were no longer on the table... Portillo was laughing at her saying
"Isn't that to just say that because all the things that you and your party believed in for all those years have been shown to be very bad and very damaging, that now it's safe to remain in the European Union? That seems to be an extraordinary argument"
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe. The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests. The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
I read the Racing Post every day - not sure where that sits in the EU Referendum debatel
Im friends with the editor, shall I find out?
Far more importantly, where do they stand on FPTP vs AV?
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
Well I genuinely believe in pooled sovereignty on certain key issues, in freedom of movement and in ever closer union... that presents me with a dilemma. Cameron's plan rules out ever closer union so I'm not even sure I can vote remain with that on the table. If the EU is a box of chocolates then Cameron has just thrown out all my favourite ones and squished them into the carpet this week.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Just who is being dishonest in saying they do not support ever closer union. Such support inevitably means joining the Euro. Just who is Just who are these liars who are saying they do not believe in the Euro and do not want ever closer union?
I suppose Alex Salmond might qualify.
I promised to be nice on this thread tonight so I won't give you the answer you deserve.
Matthew D'Ancona, who will be the last to die in the ditch with Cameron, wrote a tediously cringeworthy piece in the Standard on Wednesday praising Dave to the skies etc, etc.
Cameron has enjoyed his share, some might say more than his share, of good fortune and even now the paucity of the LEAVE campaign has given him a real chance to win.
Let me ask the Conservative members and activists a simple question: what do you think would have happened at the 2015 GE had Cameron NOT offered the EU Referendum ? In other words, was the EU Referendum simply a way of heading off Farage or was it a genuine recognition of the need to allow the electorate a say or was it simply a mechanism to hold the Conservative Party together ?
Sky News understands the Government is trying to elicit the services of Lynton Crosby over worries that David Cameron's EU deal is being portrayed too negatively by the press.
What do they mean, "trying to elicit"? Have they forgotten his phone number? Or is the reporter not quite sure it is more than a rumour. This is what Crosby does for a living, it's not like he has a different day job.
Read the story. He has several times refused to help the campaign, beforehand (perhaps he can detect a losing hand).
It's also interesting that the government is said to be "very worried" by the polls.
I'm sure that is the case. REMAIN are doing their best to look calm and assured and confident on the surface, but they must be cacking themselves at the way it's going so far. This was meant to be another "unlosable" referendum, just like indyref.
Maybe Rupert's had a word in his shell-like and put him right?
Rupert will support Remain, in the end.
He wants to build Sky Europe: he has the UK, Italy and Germany. He wants to be able to buy Canal+ in France and Sogecable in Spain, without any pesky interference from the competition authorities,
It is therefore in his best interest to be as hostile as possible now, before reluctantly deciding (when the politicians fold to him) that Remain is the best option.
A huge number of Sun staffers are Eurosceptics. They will have a fit. I vaguely remember something happening the last time he made some Eruophile noises.
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
News Corp's market cap is $6bn Sky's is $25bn
Oh come on!
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
I've consistently said to give him a fair chance too, and feel the same.
This week, however, we learnt that there is to be no reformed Europe and that Mr Cameron has won almost nothing. I feel a fool for having argued for fair play and giving the fellow a chance.
Coming from the highly respected Charles Moore, that is both highly damning and damaging.
Me too. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be persuaded. Protection for the
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
I totally agree and feel increasingly sure that Remain have blown it, largely I'm sorry to say on account of Cameron doing his Emperor's Clothes bit on the British people. There really isn't anything there is there and we've been treated as fools. The amazing thing to me is that one can still back Leave to win the referendum at odds of 9/4 but DYOR.
Remain have hurt themselves, this week, no doubt at all.
But, there's a long way to go. The Leave campaign are incompetent, and Project Fear has still to be unleashed on us in its full glory.
I take all that on board, including the chaotic state of the Leave campaign, but the media is hugely opposed to the thin gruel which is being offered and will keep banging the drum to that effect plus, most importantly, the British people don't like to be taken for fools. For those who doubt the strength of people's feelings about this, just wait for further polls to appear which I'm confident will tell much the same tale as YouGov did today.
Fair enough. I disagree but I'll defend your right to think as you do. I'm sure you'll make it to the end of the week
Likewise. I completely respect your views too. What we both have in common, I feel sure, is an understanding that we all still have to live together after the result.
It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. It would have been so much better to say, look, we will be campaigning for reform in the EU in the way of my Bloomberg speech but this is going to take a very long time and in the meantime I have promises to keep so we will have our referendum: are we in or are we out?
I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained. After being the dominating figure in UK politics for the best part of a decade we have this week seen the start of the end of Cameron. And over this bloody rubbish. It is tragic.
Matthew D'Ancona, who will be the last to die in the ditch with Cameron, wrote a tediously cringeworthy piece in the Standard on Wednesday praising Dave to the skies etc, etc.
Not sure if you are wholly accurate on this. Cameron has enjoyed his share, some might say more than his share, of good fortune and even now the paucity of the LEAVE campaign has given him a real chance to win.
You are a Conservative member and activist so answer me this - what do you think would have happened at the 2015 GE had Cameron NOT offered the EU Referendum ? In other words, was the EU Referendum simply a way of heading off Farage or was it a genuine recognition of the need to allow the electorate a say or was it simply a mechanism to hold the Conservative Party together ?
Oh lord. I said:
I am not sure what role UKIP and Farage played, I suspect very little. The key was to find a basis that kept the different camps of the Tory party together. To that extent he was wildly more successful than Major and this successors. Had he not done that I suspect that at least some element of the Tory coalition would have fractured. These would have been serious people so there is nothing to say they would have gone to UKIP but the Tories would once again have looked deeply divided and unelectable, just as in 1997.
For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying that Leave are clearly going to win this. I would still make Remain favourites. But Cameron has damaged himself by being uncharacteristically stupid. And that is a massive blow to the Tories that he brought out of the raving wilderness and into government.
One reason why I have always admired your stance on here Steven. The same goes for John Stevens who used to post on here. Going back in time the same goes for many European leaders and thinkers such as Jean Monnet. They believed in ever closer union and eventually a Federal Europe and were not afraid or embarrassed to promote it. I is most certainly not a position I agree with but it is logically sound and deserves to be promoted honestly.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Thank you very much, Richard. I greatly appreciate that and I've always admired your principled stance too - and your willingness to engage constructively with those of us who disagree with you.
I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph - and it's something that moves those of us on the pro-EU side to anger too. I completely accept that far too many pro-EU politicians are too cowardly to say it how they truly see it.
I'm not a hugely frequent PB poster, as you know. I'm more of a lurker and I only usually pop up and post if nobody already has (or looks like they will) make the point that I wish to see made. That's why such a high proportion of my posts are about the EU. I'm not as disproportionately obsessed by it as it might appear - it's just that on all other topics there are many others here who make the points that I'd wish to see raised.
We - as in my firms' clients - were the second largest non-Murdoch shareholder in Sky Deutschland (behind Odey), and are very significant shareholders in both News Corp and in BSkyB. (Top five, in both, I suspect.)
While I could not speak for the Murdochs (obviously), I think the idea that they don't care about building the dominant European pay TV platform is ridiculous.
I think there are. Roger I think would be one. Some of the other left wing posters as well. EPG? Mark Senior I would assume. I am pretty sure you are not as isolated as you think.
An interesting roll call for sure! I don't think I'd be an easy ally to any of those posters on other issues.
Kate Hoey is doing very well on Newsnight. She really should be the leader of one, single, united leave campaign. Is Banks the main roadblock to unity?
Comments
Well done Charles
They can have as many fits as they want; survival in the News Corp world requires loyalty to the Murdoch clan.
Bonkers.
He nails the whole nature of the EU very well. An oligarchy run by an elite who think they know best.
Only the debate and the weather can stop a Rubio victory there.
News Corp has bigger business interests in america rather than in europe.
I predict the Sun, the Sun on Sunday and the Sunday Times will come out for LEAVE. The Times.. dunno.
I'm not sure the Sundays will have different editorials.
But I'm happy to have a bet along these lines:
You win a fiver if the Sun and the Times go for Leave
Flat if its split
I win a fiver if they both go for Remain
Deal?
Three-quidders might represent the Labour Right's best chance of getting back in given the changing membership. Them and the unions.
News Corp's market cap is $6bn
Sky's is $25bn
That's what I felt. I just wanted a few protections to represent fair concerns of non-Euro states and I would have voted in. That was useless though.
At night, you sweat at the though of Britain leaving the EU, and the thought of an opinion poll showing a preference to leave is enough to send you retching to the bathroom.
Only half bollucks. One bolluck, so to speak?
It's the job of the editors and journos to figure out how to rid Rupert of those who challenge his power and threaten his interests.
They don't need direction - they do it all by themselves.
Deal.
I should warn you that I'm currently emailing James to check if I need to find some excuse to get out of this bet...
One paper I am confident of backing leave is the Telegraph. Barclay Jr is a Kipper and the brothers are closet Kippers.
SNP imagined oil revenues of £8bn.Forecast now: £100m.My column on the mess an independent Scotland would be in now: https://t.co/o6IYoCY8MJ
Deal.
You two must be the last of the big spenders - anyone would think you were both millionnaires.
Oh wait .....
The Mail and The Telegraph are safe.
The Sun and The Times are... beholden to the Murdoch's other business interests.
The Guardian and The Independent are lost, but who reads them anyway?
Saturday's Daily Mirror front page:
SAS heroes blown up in IS ambush
#tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers https://t.co/UHVTE7PlmT
The Mail is the great unknown
Based on its headlines over recent days, the Mail would appear to be a cast-iron guaranteed leaver.
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
He desribed it at PMQ as 'massive return of power'. He can't possibly believe what he's telling the country. He then said 'migration powers back, welfare powers back' as if they were different things. And power still lies with Council anyway.
But no. Nothing.
What's worse, Cameron's mendacity in trying to sell this as some triumph, and a great new deal for the UK, has actively turned me against the whole thing.
Promising nothing and delivering nothing would have been better
Yeah. I think it would have been better, from Cameron's point of view to say "It's 40 years since we had a vote. This is the EU today. Take it or leave it" rather than embark on this sham negotiation.
Serious question: what's the main thing making you a Remainer?
As I said this afternoon this is a huge mistake. It has seriously damaged Remain's largest single asset and given him a credibility problem that undermines his whole government. I really don't know what he was thinking.
Dave should have done the honourable thing and said he got a shit deal but membership of the EU is worth it regardless. Instead he is making rediculous claims.
Sport goes from bad to worse. And thats before you consider United interviewing Mourhino.
He does of course still have the ability to do that. If the EU were seen to be watering down or rejecting what little he does claim to have got then he could still try and make the case for REMAIN even on current terms. I am not sure it would do much good but it might salvage something for him.
I always liked idea of European project but I can't stand how it seems to make every politician dishonest. Cameron's just done the same as rest of them.
That brings back to a point made earlier; we need Labour to get their act together, and at least look like an alternative government. As it stands, I want to be able to vote 'not-Conservative' in 2020, if only to demonstrate that these muppets cannot take votes for granted.
I totally agree and feel increasingly sure that Remain have blown it, largely I'm sorry to say on account of Cameron doing his Emperor's Clothes bit on the British people. There really isn't anything there is there and we've been treated as fools.
The amazing thing to me is that one can still back Leave to win the referendum at odds of 9/4 but DYOR.
I might very well be abstaining in person now.
NEW: @CNN/ WMUR NH Tracking poll-
Trump 28%
Rubio 17%
Cruz 13%
Kasich 13%
Bush 9%
"STILL CONSIDERING": 30%
Changes from yesterday:
Trump -1
Rubio -1
Cruz 0
Kasich +1
Bush -1
Rubio's momentum temporarily stalled on the CNN tracking poll.
The good news is, with 3 tracking polls going all the way till the end, there will be no gap in polling like in Iowa.
A note of interest is that after the initial boost for Rubio, all 3 tracking polls now have the race frozen.
Nine countries are net contributors; that's obviously pleasing to the recipients. Of those nine, Germany, UK, France, Italy and the Netherlands are by far the largest net contributors. The UK is the largest non-EZ contributor.
The EU restrains the authoritarian impulses of the governing class in some ex-Warsaw Pact countries, gives the Baltics a (imo illusory) sense of security and props up the Balkans.
They simply don't get what our issues are. It's just perfidious Albion doing what it's always done.
It is a Merkel and the immigrants level of mistake. It would have been so much better to say, look, we will be campaigning for reform in the EU in the way of my Bloomberg speech but this is going to take a very long time and in the meantime I have promises to keep so we will have our referendum: are we in or are we out?
I fear the damage from this week cannot be contained. After being the dominating figure in UK politics for the best part of a decade we have this week seen the start of the end of Cameron. And over this bloody rubbish. It is tragic.
But, if it really is 4% then there ought to be a few more like me on PB surely?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZTP8-8wIs
The amazing thing to me is that one can still back Leave to win the referendum at odds of 9/4 but DYOR.
Remain have hurt themselves, this week, no doubt at all.
But, there's a long way to go. The Leave campaign are incompetent, and Project Fear has still to be unleashed on us in its full glory.
People are becoming less and less satisfied with the government, as is usual after an election when a government wins on false promises (every election that is).
Because Tory voters are stuck with the Tory party in a GE, doesn't mean that they will not vote against it when not jeopardizing Farage or Corbyn coming to power.
Voters dissatisfied with the government's performance will get a chance to express their feelings without risking a Labour victory.
The trouble is that no British politician will promote it honestly. They know it is not something that is popular with the British public in general and so they try to pretend that it is not an objective and it is not the basic principle of the EU. That dishonesty more than anything is what moves people from opposition to anger.
Sky's is $25bn
Oh come on!
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
Shhhh... I know that
News Corp is just the sh1tty print assets.
21st Century Fox is worth over $50bn - and that holds the Murdoch stake in Sky.
True.
The real money is in the american entertainment industry not in the french Banal+ and the spanish Sogercrap.
Really irritating comic interludes that just won't STFU
About half of it is great - my daughter loved the leopards and liked the Russians. A lot of it is much close to ballet than classic CdS though.
Just who is Just who are these liars who are saying they do not believe in the Euro and do not want ever closer union?
I suppose Alex Salmond might qualify.
Funny part when Miranda Green of the lib Dems was advocating REMAIN at all costs saying the dangerous bits (euro, ever closer union etc) were no longer on the table... Portillo was laughing at her saying
"Isn't that to just say that because all the things that you and your party believed in for all those years have been shown to be very bad and very damaging, that now it's safe to remain in the European Union? That seems to be an extraordinary argument"
Cameron has enjoyed his share, some might say more than his share, of good fortune and even now the paucity of the LEAVE campaign has given him a real chance to win.
Let me ask the Conservative members and activists a simple question: what do you think would have happened at the 2015 GE had Cameron NOT offered the EU Referendum ? In other words, was the EU Referendum simply a way of heading off Farage or was it a genuine recognition of the need to allow the electorate a say or was it simply a mechanism to hold the Conservative Party together ?
So you are the @DodgyDave of PB!
Not sure if you are wholly accurate on this. Cameron has enjoyed his share, some might say more than his share, of good fortune and even now the paucity of the LEAVE campaign has given him a real chance to win.
You are a Conservative member and activist so answer me this - what do you think would have happened at the 2015 GE had Cameron NOT offered the EU Referendum ? In other words, was the EU Referendum simply a way of heading off Farage or was it a genuine recognition of the need to allow the electorate a say or was it simply a mechanism to hold the Conservative Party together ?
Oh lord. I said:
I am not sure what role UKIP and Farage played, I suspect very little. The key was to find a basis that kept the different camps of the Tory party together. To that extent he was wildly more successful than Major and this successors. Had he not done that I suspect that at least some element of the Tory coalition would have fractured. These would have been serious people so there is nothing to say they would have gone to UKIP but the Tories would once again have looked deeply divided and unelectable, just as in 1997.
For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying that Leave are clearly going to win this. I would still make Remain favourites. But Cameron has damaged himself by being uncharacteristically stupid. And that is a massive blow to the Tories that he brought out of the raving wilderness and into government.
I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph - and it's something that moves those of us on the pro-EU side to anger too. I completely accept that far too many pro-EU politicians are too cowardly to say it how they truly see it.
I'm not a hugely frequent PB poster, as you know. I'm more of a lurker and I only usually pop up and post if nobody already has (or looks like they will) make the point that I wish to see made. That's why such a high proportion of my posts are about the EU. I'm not as disproportionately obsessed by it as it might appear - it's just that on all other topics there are many others here who make the points that I'd wish to see raised.
While I could not speak for the Murdochs (obviously), I think the idea that they don't care about building the dominant European pay TV platform is ridiculous.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/json/4151_historical.js?1453388629140&callback=return_json
and am trying to extract the elements into a Google Docs spreadsheet.
I also came across this, which looks like it will help.
https://medium.com/@paulgambill/how-to-import-json-data-into-google-spreadsheets-in-less-than-5-minutes-a3fede1a014a#.uf87qtrm3
I just don't seem to be able to get it to work, to get the Trump value "36.0", for example.