The Times also reporting Labour MPs are worried Corbyn might not back Remain with the enthusiasm a Labour leader should.
I remain utterly baffled by how, for so many Labour MPs, the EU is apparently now one of their top "red-line" priorities.
Last summer, they were all too happy to vote for cuts to poor people's incomes in the name of supposed "electability", yet any suggestion of them not being wildly pro-EU (despite the many signs that such a stance will cause the party problems) and they're appalled.
Is it because support for the EU is a surrogate for being social-democratic rather than full-bore anti-EU, anti-capitalist cazzamongabam?
" Should there be changes in the Common agricultural policy? Certainly. ... Should there be changes in the way the Community spends its money and in its control over it? Most certainly. ... Should there he changes in the democratic working of the Community? Most certainly. "
The Times also reporting Labour MPs are worried Corbyn might not back Remain with the enthusiasm a Labour leader should.
I remain utterly baffled by how, for so many Labour MPs, the EU is apparently now one of their top "red-line" priorities.
Last summer, they were all too happy to vote for cuts to poor people's incomes in the name of supposed "electability", yet any suggestion of them not being wildly pro-EU (despite the many signs that such a stance will cause the party problems) and they're appalled.
Is it because support for the EU is a surrogate for being social-democratic rather than full-bore anti-EU, anti-capitalist cazzamongabam?
But the thing is that one of swing voters' top worries about Labour is that they're not proud enough of the UK/England. Being all evangelical about the EU, and going on about how the UK would be a basket case if it went on its own, is only going to reinforce that public perception (IMO, even some people who grudgingly vote to Remain might be put off Labour if they're seen to talk down the country too much).
Yet for all Labour MPs bang on about the need to impress swing voters on things like welfare and spending cuts more generally (even though those should be the red-lines for a party founded to fight inequality), they're quite happy to commit electoral self-harm for the sake of the EU of all things. It's bizarre.
But that didn't get the avalanche of negativity that those two speeches did.
I have no idea what was even wrong with Portillo's speech tbh.
Portillo to his credit admitted a few years later it was ill judged.
It came off as jingoistic, it looked horrible to the wider country, as he tried to position himself as the Tory conference darling.
If Portillo had made that speech in 1983, 87, even 90 noone would have batted an eyelid. It is only because he lost his seat in 1997 that it is remarked upon I think. Thatcher's 1987 speech that Pong has linked to below - now if that was made in 1995 at conference (Yes yes I know) it would be far more noteworthy. Peter Lilley's was worse than Portillo's.
But that didn't get the avalanche of negativity that those two speeches did.
I have no idea what was even wrong with Portillo's speech tbh.
Portillo to his credit admitted a few years later it was ill judged.
It came off as jingoistic, it looked horrible to the wider country, as he tried to position himself as the Tory conference darling.
If Portillo had made that speech in 1983, 87, even 90 noone would have batted an eyelid. It is only because he lost his seat in 1997 that it is remarked upon I think. Thatcher's 1987 speech that Pong has linked to below - now if that was made in 1995 at conference (Yes yes I know) it would be far more noteworthy. Peter Lilley's was far worse.
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories. This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
IIRC it was followed soon after by John Major's 'Old maids cycling to Holy Communion through the morning mist' drivel.
Major's 'Back to Basics' was also a self inflicted political disaster.
To be fair it was never meant to be seen as a moral crusade, though just imagine if Major's affair with Edwina Currie had become public knowledge then.
In what way was Peter Lilley's speech any more nasty than George Osborne's talk about how benefit claimants were like Mick Philpott, how unfair it was for benefit claimants to be "having a lie-in with the blinds drawn while their neighbours are going to work", etc.?
Wasn't there a speech in the mid 90s when the entire Conservative cabinet simultaneously stood up, took their jackets off, put the jackets behind their chairs and then sat down again. As if it was the first movement from the Chippendales. I don't know what the speech was about but visually it was very striking.
The Conservative government of the nineties seemed to be trying a 'relaunch' every couple of months but their ship had already sunk.
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories. This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories. This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
The Times also reporting Labour MPs are worried Corbyn might not back Remain with the enthusiasm a Labour leader should.
I remain utterly baffled by how, for so many Labour MPs, the EU is apparently now one of their top "red-line" priorities.
Last summer, they were all too happy to vote for cuts to poor people's incomes in the name of supposed "electability", yet any suggestion of them not being wildly pro-EU (despite the many signs that such a stance will cause the party problems) and they're appalled.
Is it because support for the EU is a surrogate for being social-democratic rather than full-bore anti-EU, anti-capitalist cazzamongabam?
But the thing is that one of swing voters' top worries about Labour is that they're not proud enough of the UK/England. Being all evangelical about the EU, and going on about how the UK would be a basket case if it went on its own, is only going to reinforce that public perception (IMO, even some people who grudgingly vote to Remain might be put off Labour if they're seen to talk down the country too much).
Yet for all Labour MPs bang on about the need to impress swing voters on things like welfare and spending cuts more generally (even though those should be the red-lines for a party founded to fight inequality), they're quite happy to commit electoral self-harm for the sake of the EU of all things. It's bizarre.
I see what you mean. They shouldn't defend EU membership by running down the UK. (No-one who wants to get elected should ever do that.) However, if the Tories are forever flirting with Brexit I think it makes sense for Labour to be the party of EU stability.
What do you think about the Blue Labour idea? I think that, ideally, Labour would present itself as a patriotic party but one with a slightly different, more collectivist slant than the Tories.
IIRC it was followed soon after by John Major's 'Old maids cycling to Holy Communion through the morning mist' drivel.
Major's 'Back to Basics' was also a self inflicted political disaster.
To be fair it was never meant to be seen as a moral crusade, though just imagine if Major's affair with Edwina Currie had become public knowledge then.
IIRC it was followed soon after by John Major's 'Old maids cycling to Holy Communion through the morning mist' drivel.
Major's 'Back to Basics' was also a self inflicted political disaster.
To be fair it was never meant to be seen as a moral crusade, though just imagine if Major's affair with Edwina Currie had become public knowledge then.
Prime Minister Ken Clarke in 1993/94?
On that note, good night
Baxter Basics:. greatest ever Viz character. I always think of him when I handle a petrol pump.
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories. This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
In a country where contraception and abortion are legal it's not a big problem is it? It will cause a temporary decline in the birthrate but there will be a compensating baby boom once we have a medical solution.
I note someone wants £3000 on Joe Biden at 100 on Betfair.
I noticed that too.
I reasoned that if anything was imminent they would have taken lower odds. There's no movement from the bookies - and the dem nom market has seen very little betting activity on him.
Looks to me like someone is content to let the overround/cashout bot do its work. slowly.
In the 1930s the Daily Mail was quite pro appeasement, and hailed the Munich agreement as a triumph. It has a history of getting it wrong on Europe:
Rothermere and his newspapers supported Neville Chamberlain and his policy of appeasement. When Hitler marched into Czechoslovakia in March 1938 he sent a telegram to Adolf Hitler saying: "My dear Fuhrer everyone in England is profoundly moved by the bloodless solution to the Czechoslovakian problem. People not so much concerned with territorial readjustment as with dread of another war with its accompanying bloodbath. Frederick the Great was a great popular figure. I salute your excellency's star which rises higher and higher."
In the 1930s the Daily Mail was quite pro appeasement, and hailed the Munich agreement as a triumph. It has a history of getting it wrong on Europe:
Rothermere and his newspapers supported Neville Chamberlain and his policy of appeasement. When Hitler marched into Czechoslovakia in March 1938 he sent a telegram to Adolf Hitler saying: "My dear Fuhrer everyone in England is profoundly moved by the bloodless solution to the Czechoslovakian problem. People not so much concerned with territorial readjustment as with dread of another war with its accompanying bloodbath. Frederick the Great was a great popular figure. I salute your excellency's star which rises higher and higher."
In what way was Peter Lilley's speech any more nasty than George Osborne's talk about how benefit claimants were like Mick Philpott, how unfair it was for benefit claimants to be "having a lie-in with the blinds drawn while their neighbours are going to work", etc.?
I winced a bit at it, because it sweeps a broad brush between those who through ill health are not in a position to work, and those who choose not to, and failing to recognize the choice not to work is changeable as the job market changes.
For a family that works hard for what they have, and earning less than £10 an hour have a very high chance of living a life with not a noticeable material improvement of a family living entirely on benefits. To see them then live a dysfunctional life on your tax brings up a certain amount of resentment.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
My hope is that Kasich really surprises so we'll be down to four real candidates.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
Wasn't it always assumed that Bush would be the establishment choice, which to the distant observer seems bizarre as Hillary sitting in a jail cell would still beat him in a race to the White House. The Republican establishment has been going through a Corbynite phase at the moment, its more important to be ideologically pure than to win.
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories. This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
Why a political issue?
I'm sure there's a strand of Trumpery that vehemently believes that evil, foreign mozzies should be forcibly prevented from entering the country.
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
Wasn't it always assumed that Bush would be the establishment choice, which to the distant observer seems bizarre as Hillary sitting in a jail cell would still beat him in a race to the White House. The Republican establishment has been going through a Corbynite phase at the moment, its more important to be ideologically pure than to win.
Who are the choices? Trump is barely a Republican; Cruz is a tea-partier and Rubio might as well be, as well as having a spotted record in Florida. As things stand, the Establishment can either hold its nose and swing behind Rubio as the least-worst option, and there are signs that is starting to happen, or sit tight and hope one of Kasich, Christie and Bush picks up some votes. My own suspicion is that for many, Trump would be a better choice because he'd be more malleable in the White House.
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
The SNP was never socialist, despite what many on here concluded from its ill-disguised contempt for the Conservative Party. Aside from its nationalism, the SNP is a very broad church extending to the right. Look at its business backers.
From You Gov: Cameron's EU deal results 4756 UK adults were questioned on 3 Feb 2016. Results are weighted to be representative of the GB population.
1. From what you have read or heard about David Cameron's package of reforms for Britain's relationship with the European Union, does it make you more likely to want to stay in the EU, more likely to want to leave the EU or does it make no difference? More likely to want to stay in the EU 12% No difference 37% More likely to want to leave the EU 35% Don't know 16%
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
The SNP was never socialist, despite what many on here concluded from its ill-disguised contempt for the Conservative Party. Aside from its nationalism, the SNP is a very broad church extending to the right. Look at its business backers.
Tartan Tories then?
Wonder when the rhetoric will match the actions......
If the Tories had robbed the poor to fund the middle class (University fees, Prescriptions) to the extent the SNP has the 'social democrats' and 'political progressives' of the SNP would be screaming red white and blue murder......
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
Wasn't it always assumed that Bush would be the establishment choice, which to the distant observer seems bizarre as Hillary sitting in a jail cell would still beat him in a race to the White House. The Republican establishment has been going through a Corbynite phase at the moment, its more important to be ideologically pure than to win.
Who are the choices? Trump is barely a Republican; Cruz is a tea-partier and Rubio might as well be, as well as having a spotted record in Florida. As things stand, the Establishment can either hold its nose and swing behind Rubio as the least-worst option, and there are signs that is starting to happen, or sit tight and hope one of Kasich, Christie and Bush picks up some votes. My own suspicion is that for many, Trump would be a better choice because he'd be more malleable in the White House.
The Establishment swinging behind Rubio might be fatal to Rubio.
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
The SNP was never socialist, despite what many on here concluded from its ill-disguised contempt for the Conservative Party. Aside from its nationalism, the SNP is a very broad church extending to the right. Look at its business backers.
Tartan Tories then?
Wonder when the rhetoric will match the actions......
If the Tories had robbed the poor to fund the middle class (University fees, Prescriptions) to the extent the SNP has the 'social democrats' and 'political progressives' of the SNP would be screaming red white and blue murder......
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
So much lol - both Bush and Cruz have now come in and you can get Trump for almost 4/1 on Betfair!
In terms of delegates won, Iowa was a wash: 8 for Cruz and 7 each for Trump and Rubio. The rest is about narrative and momentum -- not to mention filling column inches.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
Or we restructure our expectation of what the state should prove and cut something substantive to close the gap.
But that does not seem on the table, the low hanging fruit is all picked and Osborne is well behind schedule with a good chance the inevitable next recession will hit before he succeeds, so yes, tax more or borrow more are the main options presented.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
There's something odd with those polling figures - the "remain" score varies from 38% to 58% but there is no score In the middle range of between 44% and 52%.
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
The SNP was never socialist, despite what many on here concluded from its ill-disguised contempt for the Conservative Party. Aside from its nationalism, the SNP is a very broad church extending to the right. Look at its business backers.
Tartan Tories then?
Wonder when the rhetoric will match the actions......
If the Tories had robbed the poor to fund the middle class (University fees, Prescriptions) to the extent the SNP has the 'social democrats' and 'political progressives' of the SNP would be screaming red white and blue murder......
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
I read a great line about how Scots love being 'told they are like Norwegians but prefer being taxed like they are Nebraskans...'
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
I think you are still over estimating the extent people don't find the EU just stunningly boring.
So far as internal Tory politics are concerned I think the very polite questioning of Cameron yesterday shows the way ahead. The Tories will pretty much hang together as long as they think a Remain result is inevitable. If the perception came that Out had a genuine chance it just might be different but it seemed to me that Osborne was asking the relevant question for many. Who wants to throw away a career on a no hoper and would someone who makes such a choice be a suitable person for PM?
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think more than 5% will get more than. To go anecdotal again, my relative who spitting blood about the deal yesterday and claiming this would be the first vote they ever cast in 59 years, had no idea we paid for child benefit to be paid for children in Poland, and was furious to learn we do and will continue to. Some of the deals crapness is drawing attention to without mitigating bad things about the eu. Enough to swing things? Who knows.
The Times also reporting Labour MPs are worried Corbyn might not back Remain with the enthusiasm a Labour leader should.
I remain utterly baffled by how, for so many Labour MPs, the EU is apparently now one of their top "red-line" priorities.
Last summer, they were all too happy to vote for cuts to poor people's incomes in the name of supposed "electability", yet any suggestion of them not being wildly pro-EU (despite the many signs that such a stance will cause the party problems) and they're appalled.
As I said, the fact that the Labpur Right will go to the mattresses do defend the EU and mass immigration shows what a pickle the party is in.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
I'm in favour. Who is offering that as an option?
Whichever way you do it, the people who'll be hit hardest will be pensioners.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think more than 5% will get more than. To go anecdotal again, my relative who spitting blood about the deal yesterday and claiming this would be the first vote they ever cast in 59 years, had no idea we paid for child benefit to be paid for children in Poland, and was furious to learn we do and will continue to. Some of the deals crapness is drawing attention to without mitigating bad things about the eu. Enough to swing things? Who knows.
Was your relative already voting out? I think most of the anger and noise is coming from the already committed.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think more than 5% will get more than. To go anecdotal again, my relative who spitting blood about the deal yesterday and claiming this would be the first vote they ever cast in 59 years, had no idea we paid for child benefit to be paid for children in Poland, and was furious to learn we do and will continue to. Some of the deals crapness is drawing attention to without mitigating bad things about the eu. Enough to swing things? Who knows.
Was your relative already voting out? I think most of the anger and noise is coming from the already committed.
As I said, they've never voted before for anything, and it was the media talk around the deal that got them to change their mind (for now, as a lifelong non voter they might backslide on that). So I don't know how committed to out they could have been. Certainly they didn't like the eu, but must people don't like it but still think we should remain, as indeed I used to.
I think that for both my blood pressure and the internal structure of my radio I am going to have to not listen to the Lord Bramall interview this evening on R4.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
I think you are still over estimating the extent people don't find the EU just stunningly boring.
So far as internal Tory politics are concerned I think the very polite questioning of Cameron yesterday shows the way ahead. The Tories will pretty much hang together as long as they think a Remain result is inevitable. If the perception came that Out had a genuine chance it just might be different but it seemed to me that Osborne was asking the relevant question for many. Who wants to throw away a career on a no hoper and would someone who makes such a choice be a suitable person for PM?
Of course, Osborne has no personal interest in this at all. No Siree.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think more than 5% will get more than. To go anecdotal again, my relative who spitting blood about the deal yesterday and claiming this would be the first vote they ever cast in 59 years, had no idea we paid for child benefit to be paid for children in Poland, and was furious to learn we do and will continue to. Some of the deals crapness is drawing attention to without mitigating bad things about the eu. Enough to swing things? Who knows.
Was your relative already voting out? I think most of the anger and noise is coming from the already committed.
No, quite a few Tory loyalists are spectactularly unimpressed too.
Whether they will actually vote Leave or not against Dave's recommendation remains to be seen.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
I'm in favour. Who is offering that as an option?
Whichever way you do it, the people who'll be hit hardest will be pensioners.
Hence the twisting in knots to try to avoid either option and just drag it out. Don't want to upset those pensioners.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
Under Corbyn, the centre-right vote could be evenly split between Conservatives and UKIP, and Labour probably wouldn't win. Realistically, I think the absolute worst case for the Conservatives would be something like Con 35%, UKIP 20%,
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
Reminds me of the LD manifesto during Cleggasm re with amnesty for illegal immigrants. Lots of voters who liked Nice Nick Clegg suddenly discovered what he stood for.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think more than 5% will get more than. To go anecdotal again, my relative who spitting blood about the deal yesterday and claiming this would be the first vote they ever cast in 59 years, had no idea we paid for child benefit to be paid for children in Poland, and was furious to learn we do and will continue to. Some of the deals crapness is drawing attention to without mitigating bad things about the eu. Enough to swing things? Who knows.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
I'm in favour. Who is offering that as an option?
No one unfortunately. That's the trouble. We truly small state advocates are a tiny unelectable minority.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
While I think that's broadly true, LD, SNP and Lab voters will not be solidly Remain. Heck, kipper voters are not solid for Leave. Both campaigns need to speak to as much of the electorate as they can. I think they also need to target messages more precisely than by mere party affiliation, which presumably what Messina is up to.
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
Under Corbyn, the centre-right vote could be evenly split between Conservatives and UKIP, and Labour probably wouldn't win. Realistically, I think the absolute worst case for the Conservatives would be something like Con 35%, UKIP 20%,
One reason that the Centrists in SNP, Labour, LDs and even the left of the Tories support the EU is that they have much more fellow feeling with fellow Europeans. The EU is a social democrat dominated body, with some of the centrist social and state interventionist policies to match. It is why the fervent Outers are on the right apart from a few hard left splitters.
With our UK government looking to be quite right wing for the next decade it looks to me that there will be continuing tension between it and the EU, whether in or out. Social democrat inclined voters in Britain may well side with the EU, and see it more positively.
Frothers on the right get very heated about the EU restricting their libertarian fantasies, but many Britons see this as the EU standing up for social protections such as the EWTD, mandatory holidays, protections for part time workers etc. It is why the Trade Unions for example are solidly behind Remain.
A bit of an exaggeration, according to his campaign schedule Trump is doing two events in New Hampshire today, two at the weekend and two on Monday and is going to South Carolina on Friday
The SNP hates austerity so much it is prepared to do absolutely nothing to mitigate it.
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
so do you think labour should be proposing tax rises for the whole UK to mitigate austerity?
It's a distinct position at least.
And a realistic one. Despite more than 5 years of Austerity, and several good years of recovery the annual deficit remains huge. Either we tax ourselves or we tax our children and their children through borrowing.
How about we don't tax them and make far more cuts instead?
I'm in favour. Who is offering that as an option?
No one unfortunately. That's the trouble. We truly small state advocates are a tiny unelectable minority.
How small a state would you like to see?
I assume you'd scrap the NHS. Would you support a State-guaranteed health insurance scheme? Would you see a role for the State in regulating health-care providers?
(I've lots more questions for you in due course, but those will do for now.)
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block of voters.
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
Under Corbyn, the centre-right vote could be evenly split between Conservatives and UKIP, and Labour probably wouldn't win. Realistically, I think the absolute worst case for the Conservatives would be something like Con 35%, UKIP 20%,
One reason that the Centrists in SNP, Labour, LDs and even the left of the Tories support the EU is that they have much more fellow feeling with fellow Europeans. The EU is a social democrat dominated body, with some of the centrist social and state interventionist policies to match. It is why the fervent Outers are on the right apart from a few hard left splitters.
With our UK government looking to be quite right wing for the next decade it looks to me that there will be continuing tension between it and the EU, whether in or out. Social democrat inclined voters in Britain may well side with the EU, and see it more positively.
Frothers on the right get very heated about the EU restricting their libertarian fantasies, but many Britons see this as the EU standing up for social protections such as the EWTD, mandatory holidays, protections for part time workers etc. It is why the Trade Unions for example are solidly behind Remain.
If a faction can't win an election, it must always be tempting to rely on the EU to restrict its victorious opponents.
There is, however, a section of leftward-leaning voters who are very concerned about immigration, and who will vote accordingly.
So nine Republicans left in the race, with Paul and Santorum dropping out. Probably a couple more to drop next week after NH (Gilmore, Fiorina?). Hopefully NH will reaffirm that it's a three way race between Cruz, Trump and Rubio.
What of the centrists -- Bush, Kasich and Christie -- who would probably be the Establishment choice if one of them showed any life at all? Cruz and Rubio are both on the right and Trump is all over the shop, ideologically.
Wasn't it always assumed that Bush would be the establishment choice, which to the distant observer seems bizarre as Hillary sitting in a jail cell would still beat him in a race to the White House. The Republican establishment has been going through a Corbynite phase at the moment, its more important to be ideologically pure than to win.
Who are the choices? Trump is barely a Republican; Cruz is a tea-partier and Rubio might as well be, as well as having a spotted record in Florida. As things stand, the Establishment can either hold its nose and swing behind Rubio as the least-worst option, and there are signs that is starting to happen, or sit tight and hope one of Kasich, Christie and Bush picks up some votes. My own suspicion is that for many, Trump would be a better choice because he'd be more malleable in the White House.
Trump has a net worth bigger than most of the GOP establishment combined, he will not be 'malleable'to anyone
On topic I will be very surprised if the events of yesterday move the polling much. You had that Cameron chap who actually is and sounds like the PM telling us that things were going to be better in the EU in ways that were quite difficult to follow but that's what he is paid for. You had (for those really paying attention) the other parties broadly agreeing and you had the odd odd bod moaning about it as they always do.
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
I think that Cameron's statement matters only to the Tories, not to the wider public. The kippers want out on any terms, Labour, SNP, LDs wanted in on existing terms. The "renegotiation farce is pure internal politics within the Conservatives. That may well be a significant swing block
Under Corbyn, the centre-right vote could be evenly split between Conservatives and UKIP, and Labour probably wouldn't win. Realistically, I think the absolute worst case for the Conservatives would be something like Con 35%, UKIP 20%,
One reason that the Centrists in SNP, Labour, LDs and even the left of the Tories support the EU is that they have much more fellow feeling with fellow Europeans. The EU is a social democrat dominated body, with some of the centrist social and state interventionist policies to match. It is why the fervent Outers are on the right apart from a few hard left splitters.
With our UK government looking to be quite right wing for the next decade it looks to me that there will be continuing tension between it and the EU, whether in or out. Social democrat inclined voters in Britain may well side with the EU, and see it more positively.
Frothers on the right get very heated about the EU restricting their libertarian fantasies, but many Britons see this as the EU standing up for social protections such as the EWTD, mandatory holidays, protections for part time workers etc. It is why the Trade Unions for example are solidly behind Remain.
If a faction can't win an election, it must always be tempting to rely on the EU to restrict its victorious opponents.
There is, however, a section of leftward-leaning voters who are very concerned about immigration, and who will vote accordingly.
Immigration is only a factor in the Brexit referendum if Leave wants out of the EEA too.
My experience is that it is non-EU migration that people do not want. Like many Brits, I rarely meet a Pole, a Slovak, a Greek or a Spaniard that I do not like.
Comments
Scoring political points mocking gay kids.
Shitty right wing politics at its worst.
http://webspace.webring.com/people/gc/clairec3/rednoseofcourage01.jpg
Most political speeches are absolutely painful to watch aren't they? Especially when they try to be funny
" Should there be changes in the Common agricultural policy? Certainly.
...
Should there be changes in the way the Community spends its money and in its control over it? Most certainly.
...
Should there he changes in the democratic working of the Community? Most certainly. "
Well that worked out okay didn't it.
http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/speech-archive.htm?speech=120
Yet for all Labour MPs bang on about the need to impress swing voters on things like welfare and spending cuts more generally (even though those should be the red-lines for a party founded to fight inequality), they're quite happy to commit electoral self-harm for the sake of the EU of all things. It's bizarre.
It came off as jingoistic, it looked horrible to the wider country, as he tried to position himself as the Tory conference darling.
IIRC it was followed soon after by John Major's 'Old maids cycling to Holy Communion through the morning mist' drivel.
Major's 'Back to Basics' was also a self inflicted political disaster.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/health/os-florida-zika-virus-20160203-story.html
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/Z/ZIKA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-02-03-08-50-09
Parts of Florida declared in a state of emergency, and the virus spreads now through sex too, and it's spread to the French territories.
This is going to avalanche into a major political issue any moment now.
Prime Minister Ken Clarke in 1993/94?
On that note, good night
I've heard that view a few times now.
Vote In and get TTIP in the NHS, whilst supporting Cameron.
The Conservative government of the nineties seemed to be trying a 'relaunch' every couple of months but their ship had already sunk.
What do you think about the Blue Labour idea? I think that, ideally, Labour would present itself as a patriotic party but one with a slightly different, more collectivist slant than the Tories.
I reasoned that if anything was imminent they would have taken lower odds. There's no movement from the bookies - and the dem nom market has seen very little betting activity on him.
Looks to me like someone is content to let the overround/cashout bot do its work. slowly.
For a family that works hard for what they have, and earning less than £10 an hour have a very high chance of living a life with not a noticeable material improvement of a family living entirely on benefits. To see them then live a dysfunctional life on your tax brings up a certain amount of resentment.
This was a pitch to low earners, and it chimed.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/trump-resists-staff-calls-to-change-course-218711
'I reckon a wall should do it'
It gladdens my Tory heart to hear those self-proclaimed social democrats and political progressives on the SNP benches arguing so vigorously and passionately against increases in taxation.
Conservative members are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP in holding the line against the tax grabbers on the Labour and Liberal Democrat benches, who would clobber Scottish families. To coin a phrase, we are happy to be better together with the SNP on this issue.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10351#sthash.DfZApK5n.dpuf
Cameron's EU deal results
4756 UK adults were questioned on 3 Feb 2016.
Results are weighted to be representative of the GB population.
1. From what you have read or heard about David Cameron's package of reforms for Britain's relationship with the European Union, does it make you more likely to want to stay in the EU, more likely to want to leave the EU or does it make no difference?
More likely to want to stay in the EU 12%
No difference 37%
More likely to want to leave the EU 35%
Don't know 16%
Wonder when the rhetoric will match the actions......
If the Tories had robbed the poor to fund the middle class (University fees, Prescriptions) to the extent the SNP has the 'social democrats' and 'political progressives' of the SNP would be screaming red white and blue murder......
Labour won't gain a single vote with this new policy, but it sure has shot a lot of foxes.
Turns out Scots are pretty much like the English when it comes to paying tax.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/gallery/2016/02/portrait-of-a-trump-town-000609#ixzz3zBGBdDRM
He's a natural-born Peebie
If more than 5% of the population got more than that I would be amazed. In that 5% I suspect those who had not already made their minds up could probably be counted on the fingers of the average man from Norfolk.
But that does not seem on the table, the low hanging fruit is all picked and Osborne is well behind schedule with a good chance the inevitable next recession will hit before he succeeds, so yes, tax more or borrow more are the main options presented.
Age UK made millions by recommending high fuel tariff
The significance of the discussions of 'renegotiation" are the battle lines drawn up internally. Will the Tories go into a fratricidal cycle of navel gazing and banging on about Europe? It looks pretty likely to me that the only party left standing in England is about to commit seppuku.
So far as internal Tory politics are concerned I think the very polite questioning of Cameron yesterday shows the way ahead. The Tories will pretty much hang together as long as they think a Remain result is inevitable. If the perception came that Out had a genuine chance it just might be different but it seemed to me that Osborne was asking the relevant question for many. Who wants to throw away a career on a no hoper and would someone who makes such a choice be a suitable person for PM?
who knows, perhaps they'll get some good poetry out of it (suspect not)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6907524/Sun-investigation-reveals-Age-UK-recommends-dearer-power-to-pensioners.html
Whether they will actually vote Leave or not against Dave's recommendation remains to be seen.
The deal remains singularly unimpressive. The Moggster was spot on in Parliament.
With our UK government looking to be quite right wing for the next decade it looks to me that there will be continuing tension between it and the EU, whether in or out. Social democrat inclined voters in Britain may well side with the EU, and see it more positively.
Frothers on the right get very heated about the EU restricting their libertarian fantasies, but many Britons see this as the EU standing up for social protections such as the EWTD, mandatory holidays, protections for part time workers etc. It is why the Trade Unions for example are solidly behind Remain.
As with market reaction to Scottish Indy Polling news I do not be understand how political betting markets operate.
I assume you'd scrap the NHS. Would you support a State-guaranteed health insurance scheme? Would you see a role for the State in regulating health-care providers?
(I've lots more questions for you in due course, but those will do for now.)
There is, however, a section of leftward-leaning voters who are very concerned about immigration, and who will vote accordingly.
My experience is that it is non-EU migration that people do not want. Like many Brits, I rarely meet a Pole, a Slovak, a Greek or a Spaniard that I do not like.