A common trick in the 90s when Russian industry was privatised was for the newly privatised industries to appoint firms as exclusive agents. Those agents would buy at the Russian price and export at the market price and pocket the difference. And given that Russia has many of the "world's biggest X" where X is things like oil, aluminium, iron, steel and so on, there was a huge amount of money made but some very nasty people.
I don't think the situation is quite as blatantly larcenous now, but it is more consolidated and the people in power and the owners of the major industries are now very closely tied.
The top 1% in Russia own 70% of the nation's wealth, with 110 Billionaires owning over $10T in assets. The rich-poor gap is way higher there than anywhere else, certainly in the western world.
$10 trillion seems quite high... $10trn / 110 equals average wealth per Russian billionaire of $90bn. Which is richer than Bill Gates, Carlos Slim or Warren Buffett.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
Isn’t that similar to what we did to them in the Opium Wars?
Nah. The opium wars were about balance of trade. We wanted to buy their tea but they would only accept hard cash (well silver actually) in payment. So we started to flog them opium, grown in India, which they paid for in silver we we then used to buy the tea that we wanted. The Chinese didn't like having their population corrupted by narcotics and moved to stop its import. We didn't like that and so we had the opium war, which led amongst other things to the founding of Hong Kong as a colony.
As a fine point of interest, until the 1970s the cap badge of the Royal Hong Police included a depiction of opium barrels.
This illustrates the lengths the British will go to for a good cup of tea.
Oh, we went further than that. We actively corrupted chinese officials and broke Chinese laws in order to smuggle tea plants out of China. Those plants were used as to found the tea plantations of in India and Ceylon. Once those were up and running we didn't give a toss about the opium trade and eventually moved to suppress it. Interesting people were our Victorian ancestors.
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
And this survey was conducted before the most recent bomb attacks in Jakarta.....
I cant speak for other posters, but I would say that is completely irrelevant.. The problem isn't muslim countries, or muslims, it is the tension caused by rapid Islamic immigration to a certain (5-10%) level in countries where there were previously very few muslims
I don't doubt it would be the same if it were Christians going to an Islamic country if the numbers were great enough
Mass Immigration=Segregation+Ghettoisation=Violence
See The Paris Suburbs, Molenbeek, The East End of London
They must be getting worried in Europhile Central (10 Downing St) around about now. This is just too close to be comfortable, and with a spring and summer of migration/eurogeddon to come.
They really could lose this.
Relatedly, Dan Hannan speculates that TEN MILLION migrants might arrive in Europe this year. Ten. Million.
Seems unlikely to me, but even if it is just half of that, it could be apocalyptic, presaging LEAVE
British public don't care how many immigrants go to Germany. They care how many come here.
As discussed yesterday, the British public are well aware that anyone let in to Germany today could be in the UK in a few years - or less, if Germany relaxes its citizenship laws - or they just decide to sneak in.
Yesterday also proved that the only people unaware of this self evident fact are pb's most ardent europhiles.
If that was really that likely, eurosceptics would be running wild with that. But I only ever hear that in internet comments. That suggests analysis is flawed.
You hadn't noticed that immigration/terror is now deemeed THE most important topic by the British voters, shooting up the list in the last few months? You think this has nothing to do with Paris/Cologne?
And presumably you don't link this to the swing to LEAVE now being shown in various polls?
You might be better off commenting on a less demanding website.
So why do you think eurosceptics aren't making this argument on the telly? Why aren't think tanks making estimates of how many will come here?
I spose they could be waiting for final couple of weeks to drop such estimates.
It would be entirely counter-productive for Farage or Hannan - or whoever - to go on TV and froth about bloody immigrants. It would put people OFF voting LEAVE, for fear of being tainted with all that unpleasantness.
As others have noted, they don't have to do it. The news does it for them, pro or anti immigrant, this subject is dominating everything - along with the poisonous nexus of terror/ISIS/Calais/Islamism. And there's no let-up in sight, with the big seasonal migrations yet to begin.
Right now, it's looking like the europhile Tories have picked the worse POSSIBLE time to have a referendum on Europe.
I would have thought the worst/best [delete as appropriate] would have been at the peak of the Eurozone crisis in 2011, when Leave had a 20% lead.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
The Chinese government does not set the price at which Chinese firms sell steel any more than the UK government does.
Truth be told, there is too much steel production in the world. Steel mills are going to close in the UK, in China, in Australia, in Germany and in the US. That is a natural part of the business cycle.
The most expensive (the so-called "marginal producer") mills will close. Our steel plants are not cheap by world standards. And local demand for steel is modest.
If we don't have world class steel plants, then we either burden the rest of the economy by supporting them through subsidies or by paying higher prices (which amount to the same thing), or we let them go.
We need to let them go. Propping up uncompetitive industries is a losing game. And it's one where we all pay the price in the long term.
I've asked this before, but steel is not just steel. There are many specialist alloys with various elements added, eg. vanadium, chromium etc.
Can any mill produce these steels and swap between them easily, or do they require specialist furnaces, crucibles etc?
Any debate on the industry would rather seem to hang on this question ...
Given we are close to having none left it is not debatable
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
The steel choice will be up to BAE Systems, Hertel etc but why let the truth get in the way of a McRant.
Keep trying to avoid the point with the rest of your hypocrit chums.
The truth certainly seemed irrelevant when the SNPBad rants were being laid at the choice of Dragados, Hochtief, American Bridge, and Morrison Construction to use Chinese steel on the Quensferry Crossing.
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
Isn’t that similar to what we did to them in the Opium Wars?
Nah. The opium wars were about balance of trade. We wanted to buy their tea but they would only accept hard cash (well silver actually) in payment. So we started to flog them opium, grown in India, which they paid for in silver we we then used to buy the tea that we wanted. The Chinese didn't like having their population corrupted by narcotics and moved to stop its import. We didn't like that and so we had the opium war, which led amongst other things to the founding of Hong Kong as a colony.
As a fine point of interest, until the 1970s the cap badge of the Royal Hong Police included a depiction of opium barrels.
Classy bunch, the taipans
For a bunch of pirates and smugglers, yes. Was your family engaged out East, Mr. Charles? I have never heard of them being mentioned but so much money was being made I'd be surprised if they didn't have a finger in the pie somewhere.
Yep, there's been a definite swing to LEAVE and I am sure it is migration/terror that's doing it. i.e. I do not believe the British public have been swayed by earnest Spectator articles about greater free trading opportunities in the EEA and EFTA as against the EU.
Of course it is, you are bang right
Only political nerds (guilty) are even aware of EEA EFTA etc, prob less than 1% of voters. And most of them think its boring.
Cologne/Calais etc will win it for LEAVE if LEAVE is to win. The beauty of it is that LEAVE don't have to mention it... its regularly on every pro EU news broadcast and every pro EU newspapers front page, juxtaposed with establishment suits telling us we are better off in. The perfect storm
I think you are right both about the importance of migration and the most effective way for Leave to play it.
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
The steel choice will be up to BAE Systems, Hertel etc but why let the truth get in the way of a McRant.
Keep trying to avoid the point with the rest of your hypocrit chums.
The truth certainly seemed irrelevant when the SNPBad rants were being laid at the choice of Dragados, Hochtief, American Bridge, and Morrison Construction to use Chinese steel on the Quensferry Crossing.
Dair, Don't you know Alex Salmond ordered that personally, did you not get the memo
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
Realistically the Tories are in charge of the UK for the next decade so I can't see us going protectionist any time soon.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
The Chinese government does not set the price at which Chinese firms sell steel any more than the UK government does.
Truth be told, there is too much steel production in the world. Steel mills are going to close in the UK, in China, in Australia, in Germany and in the US. That is a natural part of the business cycle.
The most expensive (the so-called "marginal producer") mills will close. Our steel plants are not cheap by world standards. And local demand for steel is modest.
If we don't have world class steel plants, then we either burden the rest of the economy by supporting them through subsidies or by paying higher prices (which amount to the same thing), or we let them go.
We need to let them go. Propping up uncompetitive industries is a losing game. And it's one where we all pay the price in the long term.
I've asked this before, but steel is not just steel. There are many specialist alloys with various elements added, eg. vanadium, chromium etc.
Can any mill produce these steels and swap between them easily, or do they require specialist furnaces, crucibles etc?
Any debate on the industry would rather seem to hang on this question ...
Given we are close to having none left it is not debatable
It's funny that you're so concerned with the state of British manufacturing, yet claim to drive a BMW.
They must be getting worried in Europhile Central (10 Downing St) around about now. This is just too close to be comfortable, and with a spring and summer of migration/eurogeddon to come.
They really could lose this.
Relatedly, Dan Hannan speculates that TEN MILLION migrants might arrive in Europe this year. Ten. Million.
Seems unlikely to me, but even if it is just half of that, it could be apocalyptic, presaging LEAVE
British public don't care how many immigrants go to Germany. They care how many come here.
Yesterday also proved that the only people unaware of this self evident fact are pb's most ardent europhiles.
If that was really that likely, eurosceptics would be running wild with that. But I only ever hear that in internet comments. That suggests analysis is flawed.
And presumably you don't link this to the swing to LEAVE now being shown in various polls?
You might be better off commenting on a less demanding website.
So why do you think eurosceptics aren't making this argument on the telly? Why aren't think tanks making estimates of how many will come here?
I spose they could be waiting for final couple of weeks to drop such estimates.
Right now, it's looking like the europhile Tories have picked the worse POSSIBLE time to have a referendum on Europe.
I would have thought the worst/best [delete as appropriate] would have been at the peak of the Eurozone crisis in 2011, when Leave had a 20% lead.
Fair point. I yield. The worst possible time outside Peak Eurogeddon then. Tho of course eurogeddon has not gone away....
Yeah; but the risk of soverign default and disorganised exit from the Eurozone seems much diminished. Government debt-to-GDP has peaked in Ireland, Spain, Italy, and Portugal. (Although the last could easily see another serious crisis this year.)
Trump's price seems to have come in entirely at his expense. Bush and Rubio don't seem to have moved. At all.
There's some logic to that. Both Trump and Cruz are hated by the establishment and are running on an anti-establishment platform. Trump just does it better (except for the evangelicals).
taffys question from yesterday looks more and more relevant. Let's say Cameron gets his deal in March. But let's say, as well, that the polls stay resolutely depressing, for him - pointing to a narrow LEAVE victory.
What does he do then? Risk it? I find it hard to believe he'd risk his entire reputation that way. But he'd need some reason to delay. And what if the polls still don't budge?
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
I think France leaving the Euro and letting the Franc depreciate to its real value would help, but it is a temporary fix, but it would also help with the first point as they would be able to inflate away some of the debt and with some spending restraint they could also fix the high government spending issue.
I honestly don't think anyone can fix the endemic issues with the French labour market. Look at when Sarkozy tried to do it, the whole country just went on strike for days. The culture of "I'll work when I feel like it" is just to ingrained into their national psyche.
taffys question from yesterday looks more and more relevant. Let's say Cameron gets his deal in March. But let's say, as well, that the polls stay resolutely depressing, for him - pointing to a narrow LEAVE victory.
What does he do then? Risk it? I find it hard to believe he'd endanger his entire reputation that way - go down as the PM who took us out of the EU. His banker friends and Notting Hill chums would never forgive him.
But he'd need some reason to delay. And what if the polls still don't budge?
I'm looking forward to your series of messages sometime around the end of April or so confidently proclaiming that the Remain victory was never in doubt and that everyone has been far too engrossed in what was always a foregone conclusion.
You'll have at least four more changes of mind before the final result, of course.
Trump's price seems to have come in entirely at his expense. Bush and Rubio don't seem to have moved. At all.
There's some logic to that. Both Trump and Cruz are hated by the establishment and are running on an anti-establishment platform. Trump just does it better (except for the evangelicals).
I think "some" is right.
You could point to substantial differences in some policy areas such that, should one of them drop out, as ever the transfer percentage would be some way from 100%.
I think the reason the odds are zero sum is because either Cruz gets momentum from Iowa and damages Trump (but goes up himself) or he doesn't and damages himself. Whether Rubio or Bush can launch a comeback is not particularly dependent on Iowa (actually an interesting question!).
One final thing to note from the PSF release, interesting to see that corporation tax is almost back to pre-crisis levels in cash terms despite being cut by 8p. A fair amount of inflation will have helped but there has definitely been a marked increase in business activity and less tax avoidance.
We must never lose track of the the fact that if we vote to leave then it will be the majority of the voters in the UK who want it that way..so be it .. we will move on to the next stage
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
We need to let them go. Propping up uncompetitive industries is a losing game. And it's one where we all pay the price in the long term.
I've asked this before, but steel is not just steel. There are many specialist alloys with various elements added, eg. vanadium, chromium etc.
Can any mill produce these steels and swap between them easily, or do they require specialist furnaces, crucibles etc?
Any debate on the industry would rather seem to hang on this question ...
Given we are close to having none left it is not debatable
It's funny that you're so concerned with the state of British manufacturing, yet claim to drive a BMW.
No claim, just a fact. I doubt anyone on this site has 100% British goods given the state of British Manufacturing. You clearly miss the point that this Government like previous ones does little to support British Companies and is happy to sell them off and give preference to foreign goods etc. This policy will ensure that we go even further down the toilet as there can only be so many people working as Bankers, burger flippers and coffee makers. Investing our tax income in local production is a virtuous circle, given it to the Chinese for "Cheap shoddy goods" is infantile and stupid.
Whatever Amazon employees do all day, it isn't writing cheques to HMRC.
I made a deliberate decision to avoid spending money with Amazon a few years ago. Everytime I now have a choice of another website I use that rather than Amazon. I have been an Amazon customer since at least 1999.
''Both Trump and Cruz are hated by the establishment and are running on an anti-establishment platform. ''
True but one will in the end be beholden to that establishment for money, and one won't. That is Trump's key selling point, isn't it? he can say what he likes because he's a billionaire.
taffys question from yesterday looks more and more relevant. Let's say Cameron gets his deal in March. But let's say, as well, that the polls stay resolutely depressing, for him - pointing to a narrow LEAVE victory.
What does he do then? Risk it? I find it hard to believe he'd endanger his entire reputation that way - go down as the PM who took us out of the EU. His banker friends and Notting Hill chums would never forgive him.
But he'd need some reason to delay. And what if the polls still don't budge?
I'm looking forward to your series of messages sometime around the end of April or so confidently proclaiming that the Remain victory was never in doubt and that everyone has been far too engrossed in what was always a foregone conclusion.
You'll have at least four more changes of mind before the final result, of course.
Don't forget the MAJOR PANIC!!!!!! Where CAMERON ABSOLUTELY MUST DO SOMETHING (unspecified) because of one rogue YouGov poll.......
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
I think France leaving the Euro and letting the Franc depreciate to its real value would help, but it is a temporary fix, but it would also help with the first point as they would be able to inflate away some of the debt and with some spending restraint they could also fix the high government spending issue.
I honestly don't think anyone can fix the endemic issues with the French labour market. Look at when Sarkozy tried to do it, the whole country just went on strike for days. The culture of "I'll work when I feel like it" is just to ingrained into their national psyche.
France needs a sensible Eurosceptic party.
Leaving the Euro while raising public spending (as is FN policy), introducing new taxes on business, and increasing protectionism isn't going to make the country a better place. I would also point out that the FN wants to make it harder for businesses to let workers go...
Essentially, the FN solves one of France's three problems. But makes the other two much worse.
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
Billionaire Trump and all his inherited wealth is anti elitism?
From people I have talked to, the point about migrants getting EU passports and coming to UK don't occur to them. If it was really going to happen eurosceptics should nention it more. At least in passing.
Minor Euro-news: 35 prominent Pirate Party people in Germany have switched their support to the Left Party as the "only real anti-establishment party", amid speculation that the Pirates are close to collapse. Typically it was announced on Twitter:
taffys question from yesterday looks more and more relevant. Let's say Cameron gets his deal in March. But let's say, as well, that the polls stay resolutely depressing, for him - pointing to a narrow LEAVE victory.
What does he do then? Risk it? I find it hard to believe he'd endanger his entire reputation that way - go down as the PM who took us out of the EU. His banker friends and Notting Hill chums would never forgive him.
But he'd need some reason to delay. And what if the polls still don't budge?
I'm looking forward to your series of messages sometime around the end of April or so confidently proclaiming that the Remain victory was never in doubt and that everyone has been far too engrossed in what was always a foregone conclusion.
You'll have at least four more changes of mind before the final result, of course.
Oh, I think I can do more than four, old boy. I can do four in a DAY.
I am still genuinely undecided on this issue. I really don't know which way I will vote. It's an unusual position for me, before an election I am generally 95-100% certain where I'll put my cross.
I'm not sure which way I'm going to vote on this one either. I'd be in favour of Leave on the basis that this town needs an enema, but I don't like the look of the people dangling the hosepipe.
Talking of anti-establishment parties, whatever happened to the Five Star Movement?
They've been surging. They're now on around 26% against something in the low 30s for the Renzi's PD. Forza Italia's on about 10%, and LN/NcS is on about 15%.
Martin Boon Apol for late arrival. @ICMResearch #euref weekly tracker: Remain In 42%, Leave 40% DK 17% (51 v 49). website post of data shortly.
They must be getting worried in Europhile Central (10 Downing St) around about now. This is just too close to be comfortable, and with a spring and summer of migration/eurogeddon to come.
They really could lose this.
Relatedly, Dan Hannan speculates that TEN MILLION migrants might arrive in Europe this year. Ten. Million.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
We need to let them go. Propping up uncompetitive industries is a losing game. And it's one where we all pay the price in the long term.
I've asked this before, but steel is not just steel. There are many specialist alloys with various elements added, eg. vanadium, chromium etc.
Can any mill produce these steels and swap between them easily, or do they require specialist furnaces, crucibles etc?
Any debate on the industry would rather seem to hang on this question ...
Given we are close to having none left it is not debatable
It's funny that you're so concerned with the state of British manufacturing, yet claim to drive a BMW.
No claim, just a fact. I doubt anyone on this site has 100% British goods given the state of British Manufacturing. You clearly miss the point that this Government like previous ones does little to support British Companies and is happy to sell them off and give preference to foreign goods etc. This policy will ensure that we go even further down the toilet as there can only be so many people working as Bankers, burger flippers and coffee makers. Investing our tax income in local production is a virtuous circle, given it to the Chinese for "Cheap shoddy goods" is infantile and stupid.
Why don't you practice what you preach?
Why did you fail to buy a British built, but not necessarily sourced, Land Rover, for instance? I'll guess it was for the same reasons that shipbuilders buy steel overseas. Quality, price, spec, availability and value for money.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
......
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
We need to let them go. Propping up uncompetitive industries is a losing game. And it's one where we all pay the price in the long term.
I've asked this before, but steel is not just steel. There are many specialist alloys with various elements added, eg. vanadium, chromium etc.
Can any mill produce these steels and swap between them easily, or do they require specialist furnaces, crucibles etc?
Any debate on the industry would rather seem to hang on this question ...
Given we are close to having none left it is not debatable
It's funny that you're so concerned with the state of British manufacturing, yet claim to drive a BMW.
No claim, just a fact. I doubt anyone on this site has 100% British goods given the state of British Manufacturing. You clearly miss the point that this Government like previous ones does little to support British Companies and is happy to sell them off and give preference to foreign goods etc. This policy will ensure that we go even further down the toilet as there can only be so many people working as Bankers, burger flippers and coffee makers. Investing our tax income in local production is a virtuous circle, given it to the Chinese for "Cheap shoddy goods" is infantile and stupid.
The Chinese don't generally make "Cheap shoddy goods" - apart from the cheap toy end of the market, where that is what they aim for. Their steel (at the various grades) is as good as any (in general)..
At one point it was cheaper to buy Chinese cutlery an melt it than to buy stainless steel from a UK mill.
Dumping isn't the real story - that's is just the story of moment. In the long run, making a good or better product for less and you will win.
In the longer term the Chinese advantage in manufacturing is just about gone. If you multiply productivity by wages, it is now cheaper to build factories in the US (lots of automation, rather than cheap workers) - look where the new Mac Pro is made...
''Is that why he said yesterday he wasn’t in a hurry to hold the referendum?''
I dunno. If the continental European politicians wails are even half right, who knows what Europe we will be dealing with in six months anyway. Don;t know about you, but the world feels very volatile to me right now.
One strong theme for me is anti elitism. Anti-Davos. That is what is behind the Trump phenomenon.
I think that's absolutely right.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
I think France leaving the Euro and letting the Franc depreciate to its real value would help, but it is a temporary fix, but it would also help with the first point as they would be able to inflate away some of the debt and with some spending restraint they could also fix the high government spending issue.
I honestly don't think anyone can fix the endemic issues with the French labour market. Look at when Sarkozy tried to do it, the whole country just went on strike for days. The culture of "I'll work when I feel like it" is just to ingrained into their national psyche.
France needs a sensible Eurosceptic party.
Leaving the Euro while raising public spending (as is FN policy), introducing new taxes on business, and increasing protectionism isn't going to make the country a better place. I would also point out that the FN wants to make it harder for businesses to let workers go...
Essentially, the FN solves one of France's three problems. But makes the other two much worse.
Oh I know, I was just pointing out that in theory leaving the Eurozone could help with two out of the three problems. FN aren't going to do that though, they will put up trade barriers and ramp up protectionism with retaliatory moves from other countries.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
If anything they will make it harder to become a citizen for asylum seekers so they can be easily resettled to Syria if the situation is ever resolved. I highly doubt they will want to hand out German citizenship the new arrivals so quickly.
@JeremyCliffe: Podemos proposes coalition with PSOE and IU, with Iglesias as deputy PM. Key shift: now downplaying former insistence on Catalan referendum.
The rise of Corbyn also comes into that category for me.
Agreed.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
I think France leaving the Euro and letting the Franc depreciate to its real value would help, but it is a temporary fix, but it would also help with the first point as they would be able to inflate away some of the debt and with some spending restraint they could also fix the high government spending issue.
I honestly don't think anyone can fix the endemic issues with the French labour market. Look at when Sarkozy tried to do it, the whole country just went on strike for days. The culture of "I'll work when I feel like it" is just to ingrained into their national psyche.
France needs a sensible Eurosceptic party.
Leaving the Euro while raising public spending (as is FN policy), introducing new taxes on business, and increasing protectionism isn't going to make the country a better place. I would also point out that the FN wants to make it harder for businesses to let workers go...
Essentially, the FN solves one of France's three problems. But makes the other two much worse.
Oh I know, I was just pointing out that in theory leaving the Eurozone could help with two out of the three problems. FN aren't going to do that though, they will put up trade barriers and ramp up protectionism with retaliatory moves from other countries.
The most likely place, I'd reckon, to elect a sensible Eurosceptic government would be Italy. It's got by far the weakest support for the Euro of EZ countries, and its bearing the brunt of immigration across the Med.
The problem there is that the Right Wing is split between LN and Forza Italia. If they could unite (and cast off Berlusconi), then you could really see a shock.
The Five Star Movement, on the other hand, is a bunch of incoherent student policies. And it veers from Euroscepticism to plans for a single European government on a monthly basis.
I see the Tories are planning to use Chinese steel for the type 26 frigates, what hold do they have over Cameron.
Err...steel is a bulk and universal commodity. Like oil. Or copper. Or refined sugar. It's globally vastly over-produced. We should buy from the best value provider. It is NOT a strategic commodity. China subsidises its vast and inefficient steel industry as a makework exercise. UK taxpayers should be delighted that we're getting cheap steel courtesy of the loony policies of the Chinese leadership and the generosity of the Chinese taxpayer.
Thank you for injecting a bit of economic common sense.
Yebut..... if we keep on buying subsidised Chinese steel we will have no local source of production, no steel jobs, no taxes from steel business or employment.... Maybe that's what the Chinese want, destroy competition and then raise prices when they are sole supplier.
Isn’t that similar to what we did to them in the Opium Wars?
Nah. The opium wars were about balance of trade. We wanted to buy their tea but they would only accept hard cash (well silver actually) in payment. So we started to flog them opium, grown in India, which they paid for in silver we we then used to buy the tea that we wanted. The Chinese didn't like having their population corrupted by narcotics and moved to stop its import. We didn't like that and so we had the opium war, which led amongst other things to the founding of Hong Kong as a colony.
As a fine point of interest, until the 1970s the cap badge of the Royal Hong Police included a depiction of opium barrels.
Classy bunch, the taipans
For a bunch of pirates and smugglers, yes. Was your family engaged out East, Mr. Charles? I have never heard of them being mentioned but so much money was being made I'd be surprised if they didn't have a finger in the pie somewhere.
My mother's family mainly - we chaired the East India Company a couple of times as well as sitting on the board for a lot of the nineteenth century plus had interests in Ceylon.
My father's family was too busy messing about in Wiltshire to actually do any work.
Talking of anti-establishment parties, whatever happened to the Five Star Movement?
Still plugging away, Lega Nord are the party to watch at the moment. Outpolling Forza Italia at the moment and if M5S do well Italy could end up with a M5S+LN coalition in 2018.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
If anything they will make it harder to become a citizen for asylum seekers so they can be easily resettled to Syria if the situation is ever resolved. I highly doubt they will want to hand out German citizenship the new arrivals so quickly.
It would be electoral suicide for any German political party (except possibly the Greens) to suggest making it easier for asylum seekers to become German.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
Absurd. We have no control over what other people do with 'their immigrants' but for some strange reason we remain helpless? How does Germany get all these people through the gates of Britain - cattle trucks?
Talking of anti-establishment parties, whatever happened to the Five Star Movement?
Still plugging away, Lega Nord are the party to watch at the moment. Outpolling Forza Italia at the moment and if M5S do well Italy could end up with a M5S+LN coalition in 2018.
M5S have said they won't go into coalition with anyone. That might change, of course.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
I think they hope to "unburden" themselves by sending them back to Syria one day. Seems unrealistic at the moment.
taffys question from yesterday looks more and more relevant. Let's say Cameron gets his deal in March. But let's say, as well, that the polls stay resolutely depressing, for him - pointing to a narrow LEAVE victory.
What does he do then? Risk it? I find it hard to believe he'd endanger his entire reputation that way - go down as the PM who took us out of the EU. His banker friends and Notting Hill chums would never forgive him.
But he'd need some reason to delay. And what if the polls still don't budge?
I'm looking forward to your series of messages sometime around the end of April or so confidently proclaiming that the Remain victory was never in doubt and that everyone has been far too engrossed in what was always a foregone conclusion.
You'll have at least four more changes of mind before the final result, of course.
Oh, I think I can do more than four, old boy. I can do four in a DAY.
I am still genuinely undecided on this issue. I really don't know which way I will vote. It's an unusual position for me, before an election I am generally 95-100% certain where I'll put my cross.
I'm not sure which way I'm going to vote on this one either. I'd be in favour of Leave on the basis that this town needs an enema, but I don't like the look of the people dangling the hosepipe.
I really couldn't care less what nasty demagogues like Putin or their sock-puppets think about what Britain should or shouldn't do regarding its self-governance.
It's absolutely none of their business and they won't influence me one way or another.
To let them have any such influence would be to concede them a power they don't deserve to have.
The most likely place, I'd reckon, to elect a sensible Eurosceptic government would be Italy. It's got by far the weakest support for the Euro of EZ countries, and its bearing the brunt of immigration across the Med.
The problem there is that the Right Wing is split between LN and Forza Italia. If they could unite (and cast off Berlusconi), then you could really see a shock.
The Five Star Movement, on the other hand, is a bunch of incoherent student policies. And it veers from Euroscepticism to plans for a single European government on a monthly basis.
M5S is still just Bepe Grillo's plaything which is an issue. Like UKIP they aren't professional enough.
As for LN vs FI. I'm sure FI would be interested in merging, but I doubt LN would given the seepage over the last two years. I've heard that some LN members think that if they outperform FI in the election then they can begin to campaign as the main party of the right wing which will help them break through the barrier which haunts parties like them (and UKIP).
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
They can't enter the UK unless they are a citizen of an EEA country.
Perhaps one of our lawyers could let us know if there is any way under our existing treaties to require us to admit a non-citizen? (Other than, of course, people appealing to British judges under the auspices of the European Convention on Hunam Rights.)
Talking of anti-establishment parties, whatever happened to the Five Star Movement?
Still plugging away, Lega Nord are the party to watch at the moment. Outpolling Forza Italia at the moment and if M5S do well Italy could end up with a M5S+LN coalition in 2018.
M5S have said they won't go into coalition with anyone. That might change, of course.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
Absurd. We have no control over what other people do with 'their immigrants' but for some strange reason we remain helpless? How does Germany get all these people through the gates of Britain - cattle trucks?
If they were made German citizens early (as Sean is suggesting) then they would be able to come here via freedom of movement.
It looks at the 2015 polling problems and compares the 2010 election where the libdems were 4% over estimate and concludes a similar issue arose on not polling enough non voters.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
Absurd. We have no control over what other people do with 'their immigrants' but for some strange reason we remain helpless? How does Germany get all these people through the gates of Britain - cattle trucks?
If they were made German citizens early (as Sean is suggesting) then they would be able to come here via freedom of movement.
Absolutely. If the German government changes citizenship rules, then they would be able to come to the UK.
But my theory is that it would be electoral suicide for any German political party to suggest making it easier for asylum seekers to become German citizens.
the M5S is not a party but a "movement" and it may not be included in the traditional left-right paradigm. The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism. The party also advocates direct democracy,[24] the principle of "zero-cost politics",[25] degrowth,[26] and nonviolence.[27]
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
Absurd. We have no control over what other people do with 'their immigrants' but for some strange reason we remain helpless? How does Germany get all these people through the gates of Britain - cattle trucks?
If they were made German citizens early (as Sean is suggesting) then they would be able to come here via freedom of movement.
Absolutely. If the German government changes citizenship rules, then they would be able to come to the UK.
But my theory is that it would be electoral suicide for any German political party to suggest making it easier for asylum seekers to become German citizens.
Yes well if the CDU tried to do it now then it would destroy their chances for 2017. I could see a SPD/Green/Left coalition coming close enough to power that the SPD might not want another grand coalition which will just hollow them out further.
For me I'm not undecided: if we Leave our destiny is in our own hands; if we Remain it's putting faith in the hands of others.
I know that if I vote Remain out of fear/apprehension I would always feel culpable for what followed - I might regret it for the rest of my life.
I will never regret voting to give this country back self-governance.
We are always putting faith in the hands of others. The question is: which others do we put our faith in? Neither camp inspires any confidence at all.
When we put our faith of others in the example of our Government, we can vote them out after 5 years if they introduce laws we disagree with
We could still have free movement of people throughout the EU or the world if we left the EU if a party proposed it and they won the election. We could have an extremely Europhile govt outside of the EU, just as Scotland has an extremely pro independence govt while not being independent
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
They can't enter the UK unless they are a citizen of an EEA country.
Perhaps one of our lawyers could let us know if there is any way under our existing treaties to require us to admit a non-citizen? (Other than, of course, people appealing to British judges under the auspices of the European Convention on Hunam Rights.)
SeanT is inventing possibilities out of the top of his head and assuming there is no response. The best place for these refugees is back in the camps and then back into Syria. This will only happen when the war in Syria ends, but its clear that border controls are being reintroduced and we are no different. So endless millions of people fronting up at Dover is just another Leave scare story. its quite pathetic that their opposition to the EU is reduced to this when it is an issue which has nothing to do with EU fundamentals.
Dair... any evidence they were "wiped out" by Unionists
The loss of Whisky blending and bottling was a direct result of the Labour government's failure with regards to the Diageo supermerger. But it's such a tiny aspect of that complete failure it's often ignored as the discussion focuses on the much bigger issues with it such as head office location and size.
Diageo needs broken up quite urgently, it is quite a destructive influence on the Whisky industry.
There's a zillion ways for them to come here. They could just COME HERE, for a start (or there, I'm in Bangkok), like the thousands in Calais. If 4-10m arrive this year, as predicted by some experts, the numbers get so big they would be literally unstoppable.
Then they can appeal to courts, they just need to get one sibling in the UK and in they come, as we now know, or the EU can just decide fuck it, let the British take a million, as they seem to be doing now with quotas, on and on
The history of the UK in the EU is one of constant betrayal, duplicity, broken promises and generalised and often successful attempts to get the UK to agree to something it hates.
Anyone who thinks the immigration crisis will not follow this same pattern is a witless twat.
To be honest if the Tories went along with that then I think UKIP would be nailed on to win in 2020. The government could just take the Polish route and refuse. It has worked well for the Poles and other Eastern European nations. What are the EU going to do, throw us out just after we've voted to stay in?
As it stands the UK and Ireland have permanent opt-outs from any refugee related programmes the EU might be planning. If they tried to rescind those then they might as well throw away any chance of remain winning.
£1,000 says Germany does not loosen it's citizenship requirements in the next 12 months.
SeanT?
Come on guys.
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Don't be a dick. No one was forecasting that it would happen THIS YEAR. Yawn.
OK. Next three years. Better?
Nope. It's an unframeable bet anyway. My argument is that one or more refugee-laden countries will find some way to unburden themselves, and we won't be able to do anything about it.
It might be a relaxation of citizenship laws, it might be special dispensation for asylum seekers alone, it might be a new EU wide agreement to let them move (look how the EU is right now forcing us to take a quota, or else - this wasn't meant to be possible outside Schengen).
The salient point is we have no control over what our EU partners decide to "do with" their immigrants. What we DO know is that the UK is a prime destination for all of them, due to the English language, generous benefits, etc
They can't enter the UK unless they are a citizen of an EEA country.
Perhaps one of our lawyers could let us know if there is any way under our existing treaties to require us to admit a non-citizen? (Other than, of course, people appealing to British judges under the auspices of the European Convention on Hunam Rights.)
Citizenship of the EU is additional to citizenship of the member states and our treaty obligations depend on the concept of EU citizenship rather than reciprocal arrangements at the national level. In theory there doesn't seem to be anything which explicitly prevents EU citizenship being conferred on someone who is not a citizen of any of the member states.
If the 'solution' to the volume of migrants is to process people at the European level it could lead in some interesting directions.
Just briefly dropping by, but thought my PB tory friends may like to go apoplectic over the progress on junior doctors. Looks like a big government climbdown:
10 million this year is too high. That'd be something like 30,000 entering Europe a day, as opposed to the current 2,000. I just don't think there are enough people smugglers or boats to manage the logistics of that.
However, I could easily see it peaking at 8-10k a day over high summer, and perhaps 2-3 million arriving in Europe this year.
No doubt the BBC will continue to focus in on the handful of tearful infants and elderly women, rather than the other 80% that are young (and rather entitled and aggressive) fit men.
There's a zillion ways for them to come here. They could just COME HERE, for a start (or there, I'm in Bangkok), like the thousands in Calais. If 4-10m arrive this year, as predicted by some experts, the numbers get so big they would be literally unstoppable.
Then they can appeal to courts, they just need to get one sibling in the UK and in they come, as we now know, or the EU can just decide fuck it, let the British take a million, as they seem to be doing now with quotas, on and on
The history of the UK in the EU is one of constant betrayal, duplicity, broken promises and generalised and often successful attempts to get the UK to agree to something it hates.
Anyone who thinks the immigration crisis will not follow this same pattern is a witless twat.
To be honest if the Tories went along with that then I think UKIP would be nailed on to win in 2020. The government could just take the Polish route and refuse. It has worked well for the Poles and other Eastern European nations. What are the EU going to do, throw us out just after we've voted to stay in?
As it stands the UK and Ireland have permanent opt-outs from any refugee related programmes the EU might be planning. If they tried to rescind those then they might as well throw away any chance of remain winning.
There's no way for them to rescind then without our agreement.
Where we have a serious problem is that UK courts seem to have a much broader definition of "family life" than anywhere else in Europe.
Dair Obviously the Whisky industry is actually very robust..it should be..I personally buy a lot of it..so that is one industry that is still thriving now what else was "wiped out"
You'd probably infer that anyway from them being younger and better educated. It does reinforce my stereotype of Tories as out of touch and anti-social, which is nice because my experience of actual real life Tories doesn't.
Just briefly dropping by, but thought my PB tory friends may like to go apoplectic over the progress on junior doctors. Looks like a big government climbdown:
Take a look at @ShaunLintern's Tweet: //twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/690472474199334912?s=09
'Confidential offer' leaked like medical records left in a hospital bin.
Still, good to see it confirmed that the dispute really is all about money, rather than working extra hours.
Comments
I don't doubt it would be the same if it were Christians going to an Islamic country if the numbers were great enough
Mass Immigration=Segregation+Ghettoisation=Violence
See The Paris Suburbs, Molenbeek, The East End of London
The truth certainly seemed irrelevant when the SNPBad rants were being laid at the choice of Dragados, Hochtief, American Bridge, and Morrison Construction to use Chinese steel on the Quensferry Crossing.
Britain Elects
61% of Britons believe in equality but do not identity as a feminist, whereas 7% do. 9% believe feminism is irrelevant.
(via Survation)
4% of Britons say they are opposed to feminism, 4% also 'don't know what feminism is'.
(via Survation / 30 Nov - 03 Dec)
Trump's price seems to have come in entirely at his expense. Bush and Rubio don't seem to have moved. At all.
My concern is that the rise of economic populism ends up throwing the baby (free trade, free markets) alongside the bathwater (the EU).
Marine Le Pen would be a classic example of this; is there anyone else who think's that France's problems are result of excessive free trade and big business? (As opposed to incredibly high government spending, an appallingly inflexible labour market and the Euro.)
Yep absolutely, and Corbyn may well score some big (albeit isolated) successes.
Indeed. Trump's protectionist instincts are a big concern, too.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/22/north-yorkshire-police-man-banned-sex-york_n_9047902.html?icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=422779
Labour supporters more likely to be on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram than Tories https://t.co/JoppF2203v https://t.co/dXxndLQF2u
I honestly don't think anyone can fix the endemic issues with the French labour market. Look at when Sarkozy tried to do it, the whole country just went on strike for days. The culture of "I'll work when I feel like it" is just to ingrained into their national psyche.
More to the point.how’s it going to be enforced?
You'll have at least four more changes of mind before the final result, of course.
You could point to substantial differences in some policy areas such that, should one of them drop out, as ever the transfer percentage would be some way from 100%.
I think the reason the odds are zero sum is because either Cruz gets momentum from Iowa and damages Trump (but goes up himself) or he doesn't and damages himself. Whether Rubio or Bush can launch a comeback is not particularly dependent on Iowa (actually an interesting question!).
Investing our tax income in local production is a virtuous circle, given it to the Chinese for "Cheap shoddy goods" is infantile and stupid.
True but one will in the end be beholden to that establishment for money, and one won't. That is Trump's key selling point, isn't it? he can say what he likes because he's a billionaire.
Never a dull moment!
Meanwhile, steadier nerves.....
Leaving the Euro while raising public spending (as is FN policy), introducing new taxes on business, and increasing protectionism isn't going to make the country a better place. I would also point out that the FN wants to make it harder for businesses to let workers go...
Essentially, the FN solves one of France's three problems. But makes the other two much worse.
https://twitter.com/dielinkeberlin/status/690228315257454593/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
http://labourlist.org/2016/01/burnham-litvinenko-death-was-an-unparalleled-act-of-state-sponsored-terrorism/
Everyone was forecasting this yesterday. Someone put their money where their mouth is.
Why did you fail to buy a British built, but not necessarily sourced, Land Rover, for instance? I'll guess it was for the same reasons that shipbuilders buy steel overseas. Quality, price, spec, availability and value for money.
Better?
At one point it was cheaper to buy Chinese cutlery an melt it than to buy stainless steel from a UK mill.
Dumping isn't the real story - that's is just the story of moment. In the long run, making a good or better product for less and you will win.
In the longer term the Chinese advantage in manufacturing is just about gone. If you multiply productivity by wages, it is now cheaper to build factories in the US (lots of automation, rather than cheap workers) - look where the new Mac Pro is made...
The UK "news" editor of Putin propaganda channel Russia Today is also an Amnesty International press officer. RE https://t.co/scrBHI9Ar5
The problem there is that the Right Wing is split between LN and Forza Italia. If they could unite (and cast off Berlusconi), then you could really see a shock.
The Five Star Movement, on the other hand, is a bunch of incoherent student policies. And it veers from Euroscepticism to plans for a single European government on a monthly basis.
My father's family was too busy messing about in Wiltshire to actually do any work.
I know that if I vote Remain out of fear/apprehension I would always feel culpable for what followed - I might regret it for the rest of my life.
I will never regret voting to give this country back self-governance.
It's absolutely none of their business and they won't influence me one way or another.
To let them have any such influence would be to concede them a power they don't deserve to have.
As for LN vs FI. I'm sure FI would be interested in merging, but I doubt LN would given the seepage over the last two years. I've heard that some LN members think that if they outperform FI in the election then they can begin to campaign as the main party of the right wing which will help them break through the barrier which haunts parties like them (and UKIP).
Perhaps one of our lawyers could let us know if there is any way under our existing treaties to require us to admit a non-citizen? (Other than, of course, people appealing to British judges under the auspices of the European Convention on Hunam Rights.)
It looks at the 2015 polling problems and compares the 2010 election where the libdems were 4% over estimate and concludes a similar issue arose on not polling enough non voters.
But my theory is that it would be electoral suicide for any German political party to suggest making it easier for asylum seekers to become German citizens.
the M5S is not a party but a "movement" and it may not be included in the traditional left-right paradigm. The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism. The party also advocates direct democracy,[24] the principle of "zero-cost politics",[25] degrowth,[26] and nonviolence.[27]
We could still have free movement of people throughout the EU or the world if we left the EU if a party proposed it and they won the election. We could have an extremely Europhile govt outside of the EU, just as Scotland has an extremely pro independence govt while not being independent
The best place for these refugees is back in the camps and then back into Syria. This will only happen when the war in Syria ends, but its clear that border controls are being reintroduced and we are no different. So endless millions of people fronting up at Dover is just another Leave scare story. its quite pathetic that their opposition to the EU is reduced to this when it is an issue which has nothing to do with EU fundamentals.
Diageo needs broken up quite urgently, it is quite a destructive influence on the Whisky industry.
As it stands the UK and Ireland have permanent opt-outs from any refugee related programmes the EU might be planning. If they tried to rescind those then they might as well throw away any chance of remain winning.
If the 'solution' to the volume of migrants is to process people at the European level it could lead in some interesting directions.
Take a look at @ShaunLintern's Tweet: https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/690472474199334912?s=09
However, I could easily see it peaking at 8-10k a day over high summer, and perhaps 2-3 million arriving in Europe this year.
No doubt the BBC will continue to focus in on the handful of tearful infants and elderly women, rather than the other 80% that are young (and rather entitled and aggressive) fit men.
Where we have a serious problem is that UK courts seem to have a much broader definition of "family life" than anywhere else in Europe.
Still, good to see it confirmed that the dispute really is all about money, rather than working extra hours.