The soft police response to the initial rioting after Mark Duggan's shooting led opportunistic criminals to embark upon a looting spree. Continued police softness meant this rapidly spiralled to a dangerous degree (NB not having a go at ordinary constables, but the decision-making officers).
It wasn't about inequality. It wasn't about poverty. It was criminal scum seizing what they thought was an open window to commit theft.
Thankfully, the stronger police response and, entirely appropriate, formidable judicial approach ended the matter.
Corbyn 'Donald Trump has weird and off the wall views'. Although he would not ban him but give him a lesson in multiculturalism and take him to the inner cities. He is looking forward to meeting Obama later in the year though they may not always agree
I see something I write about hackney has been scrubbed off again. Blimey writing on here is getting a bit like writing under a fascist dictatorship. If so I'm off. So goodbye all.
That must count as Corbyn's worst interview yet: unilateral disarmament, secondary strikes and negotiate the Falklands away. Dreadful #marr
Problem is a third of the electorate will vote for him. This is what happens when the Conservative party become obsessed with securing "the centre ground".
I see something I write about hackney has been scrubbed off again. Blimey writing on here is getting a bit like writing under a fascist dictatorship. If so I'm off. So goodbye all.
That was odd, you can see I replied using "quote" but your post doesn't appear. How peculiar,
Excellent article overall Alistair, as you state the higher ethnic population in London, the higher number of renters and young people in the city all help Labour there and should help Khan. One slight quibble, while Yougov also had Labour ahead with social renters at the election 45% to 20%, it has the Tories ahead with private renters 34% to 32% https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted/
I can imagine meeting with Corbyn to be a very curious experience. I get the feeling he'd be great company and we'd get on famously, until politics is brought up.
Personally I don't mind leading politicians perhaps being a little bit bastardy, I think a bit of cut throat instinct is probably necessary to lead effectively - too nice, and people will take advantage of you, regrettably - but at least his style is refreshing, even if his policies are not for me.
But as is repeatedly pointed out on here, if his internal enemies want to get rid of him for being such an obvious disaster, they need to offer something clear and positive as an alternative. We know what Corbyn is offering, what are they offering? In the absence of knowing that, why wouldn't people vote for the principled guy who seems so nice (leaving aside the argument whether he is or not)?
@steve_hawkes: OK - Corbyn backs secondary strikes, flying pickets, wants new Trident subs without the warheads and talks with Argentina over The Falklands
@paulwaugh: So, lotsa Corbyn newslines #marr: wd legislate to allow sympathy strikes, Trident cd continue w/out nukes, ISIL contact, Falklands negotiatn
Something I'd like to ask re the doctors strike, as a result of Hunt's reforms will they be financially worse off?
And to clarify, please ignore conditions, hours etc, will the pay packet be cut.
Yes and no. The doctors who already work unsocial hours will be worse off because overtime payments are to be cut. The ones who work Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, will be better off because base pay will rise. Most junior hospital doctors are in the first boat because the NHS is already open 7 days a week.
Just heard Corbyn interviewed on Marr. Surprisingly good. In fact very good. Answered all the questions logically and concisely and with charm. Even the idiotic ones. If he can shake off his past he's definately got a future.
@BBCNormanS: Falkland Islanders shd have a big say - but no veto - over their future says Jeremy Corbyn @MarrShow
No veto? - Falkland Islanders voted overwhelmingly to remain a part of the UK – Jeremy Corbyn obviously does not support the principle of self-determination.
@RuthDavidsonMSP: Somebody please tell me that the leader of HM loyal opposition knows that Trident is the weapons system & Vanguard class are the subs? #Marr
This may be a stupid question, but what is secondary picketing?
people going on strike because somebody else is on strike.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
I see. Sounds like it would be unpopular, magnify negative impact of a strike on the public and so decreasing the chance the government will be blamed (though with Doctors they are starting from a high base of support, compared to the government).
@afneil: Mr Corbyn floats idea that we could keep Trident but without nuclear warheads ....
LOl. Perhaps we should put pretty coloured glitter in them .........or even marshmallows?
Putin must piss himself...This English man...very funny comedian...always liked English comedian....yeeess very good....far better than those racist Meerkats telling me to compare the market. What he isn't comedian, he is in the running to replace fatty arsed Cameron. I always said this democracy very overrated. Here in Russian we never allow such a man to stand.
@steve_hawkes: The problem is - Jeremy Corbyn can make valid attacks on the Tories on welfare, flooding, transport, rip-offs.. then he goes and does that
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
It's true, in Hampstead there are massive gaps between millionaires and billionaires.
Swiss Cottage is a good example of a ward where you have blocks of social housing next to houses worth millions.
My street, Delancey, in Camden, must have one of the most vertiginous social divides in the UK, if not the world. At the junction, near the bottom, with Arlington Road, you've got several homeless hostels for drunks and junkies, literally the poorest in society. Across the road there's social housing. As you ascend the street this is interspersed with private Georgian terraced houses worth £2m. Go 200 yards to the top of the street and a three bed FLAT will cost you £2m. Go another 200 yards round the corner, to the Nash Terraces, and a decent house will cost you £15m. Or more.
The late, great Douglas Adams wrote something similar about Islington in one of his books.
The question that I don't believe is covered in this article is this - electoral London covers quite a bit of outer London, where Boris received strong support. These areas could be described as the inner edge of the commuter belt.
This has been described as the doughnut of London politics. The question is how the doughnut as changed in the last 5 years. Do we have any detailed information?
It was quite noticeable at the last Mayoral election that the more... Corbynite Labour supporters claimed that including these areas was wrong, racist, immoral, fattening and that the people living there weren't proper Londoners. Sometimes even before the election.... :-)
Much of outer London has had fast changing demographics.
AndyJS listed the changes in the London wards between the 2001 and 2005 censuses.
In electoral terms Ilford North was Conservative in 2005 and Labour in 2015, on the current boundaries Enfield North would have been Conservative in 2001 but was Labour in 2015, other constituencies eg Croydon C had near identical results in 2005 and 2015 despite the national result being so different and constituencies which the Conservatives won in 1992 - Hayes, Edmonton, Ealing N, Brent N, Mitcham now have enormous Labour majorities.
Something I'd like to ask re the doctors strike, as a result of Hunt's reforms will they be financially worse off?
And to clarify, please ignore conditions, hours etc, will the pay packet be cut.
It is a little hard to be certain as Hunt has been very vague on detail. Trainees in areas like dermatology or pathology who do not work unsocial hours will be better off with a 11% payrise. Doctors currently on a 50% banding such as Obstetricians, Anaesthetists, Neurosurgeons will lose their banding (33% of their income) but get an 11% rise. So the Docs who do already provide weekend services get a paycut while those who do not get a payrise!
There are some short term provisions for pay protection, which is where Hunts claim that only 1% will be worse off comes from. This is time limited and also does not apply to the Junior docs that move programmes. So for example the 8200 August vacancies for each of Foundation Trainees (the lowest grade) or ST1 (the first year of Specialist or GP Training) will not get pay protection and will be paid up to 22% less than their peers the year before.
Incidentally the recruitment round for August is well underway and applicants cannot judge whether they will be paid and expected to work the new contract. I suspect applications for emergency heavy specialities will be down in a big way. Emergency dept vacancies were already very frequently unfillable.
Dan Hodges Return to secondary picketing. Keep trident subs but not their weapons. Do deal on Falklands. Understand Isis "strong points". Vote Labour.
That's the Tory leaflets done for every election Labour contest under Corbyn....
And yet he would still win millions and millions of votes, that is what is amazing. I don't think Corbyn could win (and some say that is not his plan, but instead to set the direction of the party so a future candidate of similar aims can win), but the reaction to his ideas, the disbelief anyone would propose such things, is overdone. I happen to disagree vehemently with many of his positions, and the collection of them seems like it should result in the party polling even worse than it is now, and some question how anyone could vote for such things. But they will. So even taking into account those who don't pay attention to politics, either Corbyn's ideas are more popular than we think, if nowhere near popular enough, or people just hate the Tories that much they don't like his ideas but don't care.
If only the LDs would start rising in the polls, we could see if Labour would retain even their current polling if a semi-viable alternative was on offer.
Good day to all. Don't get too worked up over Corbyn, and remember that Khan will walk the London race.
Mr. P, that's not true. Thornberry's and Corbyn's views can be compatible.
The Falklands are populated with British people who want to remain British, and Corbyn wants to ignore that and for them to either become Argentine or emigrate.
@PickardJE: Thornberry says of Falklands that the islands are "populated with British people who want to remain British". Not exactly the Corbyn view.
Actually they are not British in the same way that the Argentinians are not Spanish (or Welsh). The Islanders make a point of this when they fill out their Census questionnaires.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Actually that is secondary striking, not secondary picketing.
Actually secondary picketing would mean the 6 legal pickets at any place of work could be joined by thousands of assorted trots, thugs and hangers on, effectively shutting down that place of work.
@afneil: Mr Corbyn floats idea that we could keep Trident but without nuclear warheads ....
LOl. Perhaps we should put pretty coloured glitter in them .........or even marshmallows?
Putin must piss himself...This English man...very funny comedian...always liked English comedian....yeeess very good....far better than those racist Meerkats telling me to compare the market. What he isn't comedian, he is in the running to replace fatty arsed Cameron. I always said this democracy very overrated. Here in Russian we never allow such a man to stand.
I'd have thought Putin would prefer only such people to stand against him.
@steve_hawkes: OK - Corbyn backs secondary strikes, flying pickets, wants new Trident subs without the warheads and talks with Argentina over The Falklands
@paulwaugh: So, lotsa Corbyn newslines #marr: wd legislate to allow sympathy strikes, Trident cd continue w/out nukes, ISIL contact, Falklands negotiatn
We may laugh but this man is just outright utterly dangerous. I know they call them " loony left" but holy crap??? I didn't realise they were that loopy Lou.
I await with bated breath NPXMPX2 latest defence of the glorious leader who has decided "self determination", defence of the realm and the right of business to carry on its trade without threat from those not even involved with the company and why this no longer matters.
Any Labour MP with an ounce of decency will have to walk now they cannot be humiliated consistently in this way. If they don't then they support it. It's make their minds up time.
On topic, I think Khan is also a much more adept political operator than Zac. It's far more likely that Zac puts his foot in it between now and May than that Sadiq does.
London seems to be Labour's only hope of something good happening for them this year. They should be piling resources into it.
As an aside, excepting the proposed union funding changes, do we have any idea what Labour's financial state is?
Edit: and Thirst. After sixteen days with no alcohol, I am rather thirsty.
Remember. Nanny McFiction says that you must have several days a week with no alcohol at all, or you will die a horrible death and it will be your own fault.
OT -- from the Mail's story about the Hatton Garden raid. David Cameron took a personal interest in the investigation and, thanks in part to political pressure, the police resorted to state-of-the-art surveillance equipment normally preserved for terrorist investigations.
Historically, operational matters have been down to the police themselves, not the Home Secretary or Prime Minister. Even the PCCs are in theory responsible for policy not operations. This would have been a scandal in the days when people cared about civil liberties.
Dan Hodges Return to secondary picketing. Keep trident subs but not their weapons. Do deal on Falklands. Understand Isis "strong points". Vote Labour.
That's the Tory leaflets done for every election Labour contest under Corbyn....
And yet he would still win millions and millions of votes, that is what is amazing. I don't think Corbyn could win (and some say that is not his plan, but instead to set the direction of the party so a future candidate of similar aims can win), but the reaction to his ideas, the disbelief anyone would propose such things, is overdone. I happen to disagree vehemently with many of his positions, and the collection of them seems like it should result in the party polling even worse than it is now, and some question how anyone could vote for such things. But they will. So even taking into account those who don't pay attention to politics, either Corbyn's ideas are more popular than we think, if nowhere near popular enough, or people just hate the Tories that much they don't like his ideas but don't care.
If only the LDs would start rising in the polls, we could see if Labour would retain even their current polling if a semi-viable alternative was on offer.
Good day to all. Don't get too worked up over Corbyn, and remember that Khan will walk the London race.
It comes down to some people will always vote Tory or Labour, because that is what they always have, family have etc. Noel Gallagher said it the other week, he hates everything about Corbyn, hates Communism, he is now a wealthy man, but it is wrong for him it just feels wrong to vote Tory.
Also the Labour brand still has a good hearing in many communities for well "the might be shit, but trying to do the right thing".
And finally yes there are a non-insignificant percentage of people who totally agree with Corbyn's madness.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Actually that is secondary striking, not secondary picketing.
Actually secondary picketing would mean the 6 legal pickets at any place of work could be joined by thousands of assorted trots, thugs and hangers on, effectively shutting down that place of work.
Perhaps a supporter of the policy could provide an alternate explanation of the idea for the sake of balance, as allowing essentially professional picketers to populate a picket of a place of work seems entirely unreasonable.
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
It's true, in Hampstead there are massive gaps between millionaires and billionaires.
Swiss Cottage is a good example of a ward where you have blocks of social housing next to houses worth millions.
My street, Delancey, in Camden, must have one of the most vertiginous social divides in the UK, if not the world. At the junction, near the bottom, with Arlington Road, you've got several homeless hostels for drunks and junkies, literally the poorest in society. Across the road there's social housing. As you ascend the street this is interspersed with private Georgian terraced houses worth £2m. Go 200 yards to the top of the street and a three bed FLAT will cost you £2m. Go another 200 yards round the corner, to the Nash Terraces, and a decent house will cost you £15m. Or more.
Its a pity that you never resided in one of those hostels for drunks and junkies.
It would have made your rise to wealth more striking.
And it would have been very ironic if you'd been killed by the drunks and druggies during the 2011 riots.
The Irony is its the people in the 2m homes who in many cases support Corbyn!
Same as all the communists at world leading universities, who can only do what they do for a living and say what they say, because they live in a free society...Their counterparts in Russian and Chinese (at the height of communism) would never be able to do the same.
This may be a stupid question, but what is secondary picketing?
people going on strike because somebody else is on strike.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Shows how successful the laws were when secondary picketing is unheard off. It's more than that though it's those not involved in the first strike Downing tools and joining the picket line of that strike 1st strike. To actually want to go back to that is madness with its direct association with outright violence and intimidation.
''Perhaps a supporter of the policy could provide an alternate explanation of the idea for the sake of balance, as allowing essentially professional picketers to populate a picket of a place of work seems entirely unreasonable.''
If you look up Orgreave or Grunwick, you can see the effects of this practice, when it was legal.
During the miners strike, men who wanted to work had to be brought in in buses with cages on the windows to guard against the bricks being thrown at the windows by the many pickets at the pits.
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
It's true, in Hampstead there are massive gaps between millionaires and billionaires.
Swiss Cottage is a good example of a ward where you have blocks of social housing next to houses worth millions.
My street, Delancey, in Camden, must have one of the most vertiginous social divides in the UK, if not the world. At the junction, near the bottom, with Arlington Road, you've got several homeless hostels for drunks and junkies, literally the poorest in society. Across the road there's social housing. As you ascend the street this is interspersed with private Georgian terraced houses worth £2m. Go 200 yards to the top of the street and a three bed FLAT will cost you £2m. Go another 200 yards round the corner, to the Nash Terraces, and a decent house will cost you £15m. Or more.
The late, great Douglas Adams wrote something similar about Islington in one of his books.
There's nowhere in Islington with houses worth £10-£30m, like the Nash Terraces.
Just heard Corbyn interviewed on Marr. Surprisingly good. In fact very good. Answered all the questions logically and concisely and with charm. Even the idiotic ones. If he can shake off his past he's definately got a future.
Hold your bets....
Who to believe the politico thickos who are all saying what hodges summarised from the Corbyn interview or roger?
Just heard Corbyn interviewed on Marr. Surprisingly good. In fact very good. Answered all the questions logically and concisely and with charm. Even the idiotic ones. If he can shake off his past he's definately got a future.
Hold your bets....
Who to believe the politico thickos who are all saying what hodges summarised from the Corbyn interview or roger?
hmm
Rogerdamus.... To be ignored on everything except Oscar nominations...
Something I'd like to ask re the doctors strike, as a result of Hunt's reforms will they be financially worse off?
And to clarify, please ignore conditions, hours etc, will the pay packet be cut.
It is a little hard to be certain as Hunt has been very vague on detail. Trainees in areas like dermatology or pathology who do not work unsocial hours will be better off with a 11% payrise. Doctors currently on a 50% banding such as Obstetricians, Anaesthetists, Neurosurgeons will lose their banding (33% of their income) but get an 11% rise. So the Docs who do already provide weekend services get a paycut while those who do not get a payrise!
There are some short term provisions for pay protection, which is where Hunts claim that only 1% will be worse off comes from. This is time limited and also does not apply to the Junior docs that move programmes. So for example the 8200 August vacancies for each of Foundation Trainees (the lowest grade) or ST1 (the first year of Specialist or GP Training) will not get pay protection and will be paid up to 22% less than their peers the year before.
Incidentally the recruitment round for August is well underway and applicants cannot judge whether they will be paid and expected to work the new contract. I suspect applications for emergency heavy specialities will be down in a big way. Emergency dept vacancies were already very frequently unfillable.
Thanks, so when all is said and done it's about money.
Sorry mate but you'll have little support among the wider public.
And yet he would still win millions and millions of votes, that is what is amazing. I don't think Corbyn could win (and some say that is not his plan, but instead to set the direction of the party so a future candidate of similar aims can win), but the reaction to his ideas, the disbelief anyone would propose such things, is overdone. I happen to disagree vehemently with many of his positions, and the collection of them seems like it should result in the party polling even worse than it is now, and some question how anyone could vote for such things. But they will. So even taking into account those who don't pay attention to politics, either Corbyn's ideas are more popular than we think, if nowhere near popular enough, or people just hate the Tories that much they don't like his ideas but don't care.
I would say that many people are not, primarily, motivated by a party's ideas or manifesto when they vote. Mostly they are voting for something more nebulous - what the party represents in their mind, which is something that has been built up over decades. It's "brand" if you like.
How well would a newly-founded Corbynite party do? Would its ideas pull in more than a few tens of thousands of votes nationally?
Something I'd like to ask re the doctors strike, as a result of Hunt's reforms will they be financially worse off?
And to clarify, please ignore conditions, hours etc, will the pay packet be cut.
It is a little hard to be certain as Hunt has been very vague on detail. Trainees in areas like dermatology or pathology who do not work unsocial hours will be better off with a 11% payrise. Doctors currently on a 50% banding such as Obstetricians, Anaesthetists, Neurosurgeons will lose their banding (33% of their income) but get an 11% rise. So the Docs who do already provide weekend services get a paycut while those who do not get a payrise!
There are some short term provisions for pay protection, which is where Hunts claim that only 1% will be worse off comes from. This is time limited and also does not apply to the Junior docs that move programmes. So for example the 8200 August vacancies for each of Foundation Trainees (the lowest grade) or ST1 (the first year of Specialist or GP Training) will not get pay protection and will be paid up to 22% less than their peers the year before.
Incidentally the recruitment round for August is well underway and applicants cannot judge whether they will be paid and expected to work the new contract. I suspect applications for emergency heavy specialities will be down in a big way. Emergency dept vacancies were already very frequently unfillable.
Thanks, so when all is said and done it's about money.
Sorry mate but you'll have little support among the wider public.
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
Sean Fear:
Bolleaux: You missed-out Dulwich Village and East Dulwich. Just like it has always been.
This may be a stupid question, but what is secondary picketing?
people going on strike because somebody else is on strike.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Shows how successful the laws were when secondary picketing is unheard off. It's more than that though it's those not involved in the first strike Downing tools and joining the picket line of that strike 1st strike. To actually want to go back to that is madness with its direct association with outright violence and intimidation.
Scott has given a definition of secondary action.
Secondary picketting involves the workers of firm A picketting the premises of firm B, normally because firm B trades with firm A as a buyer or supplier. So in order to put pressure on firm A (economic and reputational), the strikers target firm B.
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
It's true, in Hampstead there are massive gaps between millionaires and billionaires.
Swiss Cottage is a good example of a ward where you have blocks of social housing next to houses worth millions.
My street, Delancey, in Camden, must have one of the most vertiginous social divides in the UK, if not the world. At the junction, near the bottom, with Arlington Road, you've got several homeless hostels for drunks and junkies, literally the poorest in society. Across the road there's social housing. As you ascend the street this is interspersed with private Georgian terraced houses worth £2m. Go 200 yards to the top of the street and a three bed FLAT will cost you £2m. Go another 200 yards round the corner, to the Nash Terraces, and a decent house will cost you £15m. Or more.
Its a pity that you never resided in one of those hostels for drunks and junkies.
It would have made your rise to wealth more striking.
And it would have been very ironic if you'd been killed by the drunks and druggies during the 2011 riots.
I think SeanT has been in a very difficult place a couple of times in his life, that might even make a stay at a homeless hostel possibly a step up.
@politicshome: John McDonnell on reshuffle: "There are some ppl, if they cannot abide by the collective responsibility of Shadow Cabinet, they have to go."
Can any of the lawyers on here comment on "promoting sharia law" please?
If we are encouraging different types of law to run parallel with each other we're heading for disaster.
I suspect, it depends, is not the answer that you're requiring. To take an obvious example, one can have a commercial agreement which is governed by English law but subject to Sharia'a principles. No default interest clause for example, albeit a suspiciously similar liquidated damages clause. Then blessed by a scholar. I doubt that's what you're pointing to, though and it doesn't work in the way that you think.
Mr kle's comments are very interesting, because the 70s must seem a very long way away to people who weren;t about at that time.
Many are used to peace and don;t understand the trouble that unions can cause, given the chance.
A certain amount of trouble, to stand up for their workers' interests, seems reasonable. But it is quite true I did not see the dark days. A very unpolitical family upbringing as well, so it wasn't drilled into me one way or the other. About the only comment about such things I recall is from a non-voting member of my family, a factory worker, who occasionally comments that breaking the unions was the best thing Thatcher did (though a non-voter they do dislike the Tories in a general sense, but has actually discussed Corbyn, albeit negatively, with me unprompted, which was a surprise.
Just heard Corbyn interviewed on Marr. Surprisingly good. In fact very good. Answered all the questions logically and concisely and with charm. Even the idiotic ones. If he can shake off his past he's definately got a future.
Something I'd like to ask re the doctors strike, as a result of Hunt's reforms will they be financially worse off?
And to clarify, please ignore conditions, hours etc, will the pay packet be cut.
It is a little hard to be certain as Hunt has been very vague on detail. Trainees in areas like dermatology or pathology who do not work unsocial hours will be better off with a 11% payrise. Doctors currently on a 50% banding such as Obstetricians, Anaesthetists, Neurosurgeons will lose their banding (33% of their income) but get an 11% rise. So the Docs who do already provide weekend services get a paycut while those who do not get a payrise!
There are some short term provisions for pay protection, which is where Hunts claim that only 1% will be worse off comes from. This is time limited and also does not apply to the Junior docs that move programmes. So for example the 8200 August vacancies for each of Foundation Trainees (the lowest grade) or ST1 (the first year of Specialist or GP Training) will not get pay protection and will be paid up to 22% less than their peers the year before.
Incidentally the recruitment round for August is well underway and applicants cannot judge whether they will be paid and expected to work the new contract. I suspect applications for emergency heavy specialities will be down in a big way. Emergency dept vacancies were already very frequently unfillable.
Thanks, so when all is said and done it's about money.
Sorry mate but you'll have little support among the wider public.
That would be a radical interpretation of the text but even in pure money terms, surely most people will see the unfairness of Hunt's proposals. Btw, in light of rumours that Hunt is to be sidelined, the CCHQ spinners may be preparing to reverse ferret on the quacks.
''Perhaps a supporter of the policy could provide an alternate explanation of the idea for the sake of balance, as allowing essentially professional picketers to populate a picket of a place of work seems entirely unreasonable.''
If you look up Orgreave or Grunwick, you can see the effects of this practice, when it was legal.
During the miners strike, men who wanted to work had to be brought in in buses with cages on the windows to guard against the bricks being thrown at the windows by the many pickets at the pits.
There maybe a general sense of sympathy to people who go on strike, especially for public sector employee from certain areas, such as health care. I cannot believe that Corbyn is really endorsing a return to secondary picketing. This is a truly nightmare situation. Unions are totally and utterly in their box. Fight the current government's efforts to push the envelope even further and make it more difficult to strike, but dont advocate a return to the bad old days.
This may be a stupid question, but what is secondary picketing?
people going on strike because somebody else is on strike.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Shows how successful the laws were when secondary picketing is unheard off. It's more than that though it's those not involved in the first strike Downing tools and joining the picket line of that strike 1st strike. To actually want to go back to that is madness with its direct association with outright violence and intimidation.
Scott has given a definition of secondary action.
Secondary picketting involves the workers of firm A picketting the premises of firm B, normally because firm B trades with firm A as a buyer or supplier. So in order to put pressure on firm A (economic and reputational), the strikers target firm B.
Ok fair enough you have put it better than I did. It's all the other hangers on of course that also join. Either way it's intimidating and accompanied with socialist worker signs and considerable violence. As pointed out below with the miners strikes.
SF So where do you see the massive inyer face gap in wealth...
Bishops' Avenue, Hampstead Town, South Kensington, Chelsea, Blackheath Village, Canary Wharf, at one end of the scale Seven Sisters, Peckham, Elephant & Castle, Mile End, Stonebridge Park, Colindale at the other. And within plenty of wards, luxury gated developments, and 18th century mansions, next to grotty social housing.
It's borne out in Alistair's figures. The highest GVA in the country along with the highest concentration of poverty.
It's true, in Hampstead there are massive gaps between millionaires and billionaires.
Swiss Cottage is a good example of a ward where you have blocks of social housing next to houses worth millions.
My street, Delancey, in Camden, must have one of the most vertiginous social divides in the UK, if not the world. At the junction, near the bottom, with Arlington Road, you've got several homeless hostels for drunks and junkies, literally the poorest in society. Across the road there's social housing. As you ascend the street this is interspersed with private Georgian terraced houses worth £2m. Go 200 yards to the top of the street and a three bed FLAT will cost you £2m. Go another 200 yards round the corner, to the Nash Terraces, and a decent house will cost you £15m. Or more.
The late, great Douglas Adams wrote something similar about Islington in one of his books.
There's nowhere in Islington with houses worth £10-£30m, like the Nash Terraces.
''Perhaps a supporter of the policy could provide an alternate explanation of the idea for the sake of balance, as allowing essentially professional picketers to populate a picket of a place of work seems entirely unreasonable.''
If you look up Orgreave or Grunwick, you can see the effects of this practice, when it was legal.
During the miners strike, men who wanted to work had to be brought in in buses with cages on the windows to guard against the bricks being thrown at the windows by the many pickets at the pits.
There maybe a general sense of sympathy to people who go on strike, especially for public sector employee from certain areas, such as health care. I cannot believe that Corbyn is really endorsing a return to secondary picketing. This is a truly nightmare situation. Unions are totally and utterly in their box. Fight the current government's efforts to push the envelope even further and make it more difficult to strike, but dont advocate a return to the bad old days.
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Actually that is secondary striking, not secondary picketing.
Actually secondary picketing would mean the 6 legal pickets at any place of work could be joined by thousands of assorted trots, thugs and hangers on, effectively shutting down that place of work.
Ive witnessed secondary picketing in the doctors strike.
The only gated private estates in my area of Chelsea were three massive Social Housing blocks...On Chelsea Manor Street...just yards away from Maggies House....all with allocated car spaces..
@afneil: Mr Corbyn floats idea that we could keep Trident but without nuclear warheads ....
LOl. Perhaps we should put pretty coloured glitter in them .........or even marshmallows?
Putin must piss himself...This English man...very funny comedian...always liked English comedian....yeeess very good....far better than those racist Meerkats telling me to compare the market. What he isn't comedian, he is in the running to replace fatty arsed Cameron. I always said this democracy very overrated. Here in Russian we never allow such a man to stand.
Isnt the major cost the actual submarine replacements? The warheads we just lease from the US. What would be the point of the submarines without one?
@GeorgeWParker: The Falklands, nukes, flying pickets, the jacket: Corbyn on Marr a great warm up for Deutschland 83 tonight
A fantastic show, if the BBC made it there would be howls of protest. The old allegation was that the CND was headed up by soviet infiltrators and unilateralism was a communist plot to disarm the west, which is how the show plays it.....
The only gated private estates in my area of Chelsea were three massive Social Housing blocks...On Chelsea Manor Street...just yards away from Maggies House....all with allocated car spaces..
Can any of the lawyers on here comment on "promoting sharia law" please?
If we are encouraging different types of law to run parallel with each other we're heading for disaster.
In a free society can people not mutually agree to how they arbitrate civil disputes? If two people want to use type X, and agree to it been binding on them, as long as no coercion, and no breaking of criminal law...
Mass picketing and secondary picketing are different things. Peaceful picketing at your place of work is permitted and protected in law to the extent that your employer cannot obtain injunctions to stop it.
Secondary picketing at a place other than your work is always illegal and can be dealt with by injunction or give rise to damages claims. Mass picketing, intending to intimidate, is also illegal whether it is at your place of work or not.
Secondary action arises where someone induces or seeks to persuade a person not employed by the employer in the dispute to breach their contract or to interfere with their performance of that contract. It is excluded from the legal protections given to primary action including peaceful picketing.
Whilst taking Alastair's point about the London electorate changing faster than average this analysis reminds us once again how remarkable Boris's victories were. Labour chose a poor extreme left candidate and the Tories chose someone who could reach beyond the true blues and charm or scare them into voting for him.
Surely there are major lessons there for 2020.
Labour chose the incumbent who'd already won twice; first time as an independent beating both Labour and Conservative candidates. And a mischievous observer might wonder if Ken really is on the extreme left because although he talks a good game, in practice as mayor, Ken's major achievement was to make London safe for property developers.
Yes,he is. He wasn't necessarily in 2000 but worked his way back there by 2008 and has kept going since.
''Perhaps a supporter of the policy could provide an alternate explanation of the idea for the sake of balance, as allowing essentially professional picketers to populate a picket of a place of work seems entirely unreasonable.''
If you look up Orgreave or Grunwick, you can see the effects of this practice, when it was legal.
During the miners strike, men who wanted to work had to be brought in in buses with cages on the windows to guard against the bricks being thrown at the windows by the many pickets at the pits.
There maybe a general sense of sympathy to people who go on strike, especially for public sector employee from certain areas, such as health care. I cannot believe that Corbyn is really endorsing a return to secondary picketing. This is a truly nightmare situation. Unions are totally and utterly in their box. Fight the current government's efforts to push the envelope even further and make it more difficult to strike, but dont advocate a return to the bad old days.
I was initially intrigued as to what "Thatcher's anti trade union legislation" was, you would get the impression from some more militant union members that these laws were a knife in the back of the working man, something akin to the dark days of Germany during the 1930s. But having read the legislation, it was actually quite tame and reasonable, most important seemed to be the necessity to require union members to be balloted and agree for strike action.
I do now as a riposte often throw back that it took a Conservative Government, a Conservative Government (a bit of reverse Kinnock there, to wind them up even more) to democratise the trade union movement....
Comments
The soft police response to the initial rioting after Mark Duggan's shooting led opportunistic criminals to embark upon a looting spree. Continued police softness meant this rapidly spiralled to a dangerous degree (NB not having a go at ordinary constables, but the decision-making officers).
It wasn't about inequality. It wasn't about poverty. It was criminal scum seizing what they thought was an open window to commit theft.
Thankfully, the stronger police response and, entirely appropriate, formidable judicial approach ended the matter.
I guess you could say it is unique approach to politics, rather than to say what people want to hear. Not sure it is a vote winner though.
Return to secondary picketing. Keep trident subs but not their weapons. Do deal on Falklands. Understand Isis "strong points". Vote Labour.
* suspect more too it than that though
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted/
Perhaps we should put pretty coloured glitter in them .........or even marshmallows?
Personally I don't mind leading politicians perhaps being a little bit bastardy, I think a bit of cut throat instinct is probably necessary to lead effectively - too nice, and people will take advantage of you, regrettably - but at least his style is refreshing, even if his policies are not for me.
But as is repeatedly pointed out on here, if his internal enemies want to get rid of him for being such an obvious disaster, they need to offer something clear and positive as an alternative. We know what Corbyn is offering, what are they offering? In the absence of knowing that, why wouldn't people vote for the principled guy who seems so nice (leaving aside the argument whether he is or not)?
@paulwaugh: So, lotsa Corbyn newslines #marr: wd legislate to allow sympathy strikes, Trident cd continue w/out nukes, ISIL contact, Falklands negotiatn
The Conservative PR department must be terrified of being made redundant.
Hold your bets....
So, window cleaners going on strike to support doctors, for example
Of course Corbyn's cat, from excellent @TomMcTague interview in Sindy, is still top of the agenda, @anntreneman https://t.co/ADd2eAsWA4
AndyJS listed the changes in the London wards between the 2001 and 2005 censuses.
In electoral terms Ilford North was Conservative in 2005 and Labour in 2015, on the current boundaries Enfield North would have been Conservative in 2001 but was Labour in 2015, other constituencies eg Croydon C had near identical results in 2005 and 2015 despite the national result being so different and constituencies which the Conservatives won in 1992 - Hayes, Edmonton, Ealing N, Brent N, Mitcham now have enormous Labour majorities.
There are some short term provisions for pay protection, which is where Hunts claim that only 1% will be worse off comes from. This is time limited and also does not apply to the Junior docs that move programmes. So for example the 8200 August vacancies for each of Foundation Trainees (the lowest grade) or ST1 (the first year of Specialist or GP Training) will not get pay protection and will be paid up to 22% less than their peers the year before.
Incidentally the recruitment round for August is well underway and applicants cannot judge whether they will be paid and expected to work the new contract. I suspect applications for emergency heavy specialities will be down in a big way. Emergency dept vacancies were already very frequently unfillable.
Good and bad news for Brexit. Survation has Leave ahead 42% to 38%. But Gove has now become a fan of the EU.
It is the Tuberculosis capital of the Western World. Part of the wonderful benefits of diversity and multiculturalism.
If only the LDs would start rising in the polls, we could see if Labour would retain even their current polling if a semi-viable alternative was on offer.
Good day to all. Don't get too worked up over Corbyn, and remember that Khan will walk the London race.
The Falklands are populated with British people who want to remain British, and Corbyn wants to ignore that and for them to either become Argentine or emigrate.
Actually that is secondary striking, not secondary picketing.
Actually secondary picketing would mean the 6 legal pickets at any place of work could be joined by thousands of assorted trots, thugs and hangers on, effectively shutting down that place of work.
I await with bated breath NPXMPX2 latest defence of the glorious leader who has decided "self determination", defence of the realm and the right of business to carry on its trade without threat from those not even involved with the company and why this no longer matters.
Any Labour MP with an ounce of decency will have to walk now they cannot be humiliated consistently in this way. If they don't then they support it. It's make their minds up time.
David Cameron took a personal interest in the investigation and, thanks in part to political pressure, the police resorted to state-of-the-art surveillance equipment normally preserved for terrorist investigations.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402867/The-hit-got-Hatton-Garden-masterminds-hook-Goldfinger-gangster-gunned-stop-exposing-Adams-crime-family-revealing-identity-run-robber-Basil-Ghost.html
Historically, operational matters have been down to the police themselves, not the Home Secretary or Prime Minister. Even the PCCs are in theory responsible for policy not operations. This would have been a scandal in the days when people cared about civil liberties.
Also the Labour brand still has a good hearing in many communities for well "the might be shit, but trying to do the right thing".
And finally yes there are a non-insignificant percentage of people who totally agree with Corbyn's madness.
Trump 32%
Cruz 18%
Bush 13%
Rubio 11%
http://www.blufftontoday.com/bluffton-news/2016-01-16/poll-shows-possible-momentum-bush-sc-while-trump-still-leads#.VptqEvmLTIV
The Irony is its the people in the 2m homes who in many cases support Corbyn!
It would have made your rise to wealth more striking.
And it would have been very ironic if you'd been killed by the drunks and druggies during the 2011 riots.
If you look up Orgreave or Grunwick, you can see the effects of this practice, when it was legal.
During the miners strike, men who wanted to work had to be brought in in buses with cages on the windows to guard against the bricks being thrown at the windows by the many pickets at the pits.
hmm
Sorry mate but you'll have little support among the wider public.
How well would a newly-founded Corbynite party do? Would its ideas pull in more than a few tens of thousands of votes nationally?
Many are used to peace and don;t understand the trouble that unions can cause, given the chance.
Bolleaux: You missed-out Dulwich Village and East Dulwich. Just like it has always been.
:get-over-it:
Secondary picketting involves the workers of firm A picketting the premises of firm B, normally because firm B trades with firm A as a buyer or supplier. So in order to put pressure on firm A (economic and reputational), the strikers target firm B.
Not sure why his death in a riot would be ironic.
So Corbyn's leaving then?
If we are encouraging different types of law to run parallel with each other we're heading for disaster.
I suspect, it depends, is not the answer that you're requiring. To take an obvious example, one can have a commercial agreement which is governed by English law but subject to Sharia'a principles. No default interest clause for example, albeit a suspiciously similar liquidated damages clause. Then blessed by a scholar. I doubt that's what you're pointing to, though and it doesn't work in the way that you think.
And now it really is time to be off.
A reminder to the First World that having a mobile phone isn't the same as being on the Internet.
World Bank chart https://t.co/jZEnywJhBX
And Clegg still wants Turkey to join...
http://order-order.com/2015/02/26/sadiq-khan-spoke-at-event-hosted-by-jihadi-john-group/
Lutfur Rahman mk. II.
Secondary picketing at a place other than your work is always illegal and can be dealt with by injunction or give rise to damages claims. Mass picketing, intending to intimidate, is also illegal whether it is at your place of work or not.
Secondary action arises where someone induces or seeks to persuade a person not employed by the employer in the dispute to breach their contract or to interfere with their performance of that contract. It is excluded from the legal protections given to primary action including peaceful picketing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11844594/Jeremy-Corbyn-Let-taxpayers-opt-out-of-funding-the-Army.html
I was initially intrigued as to what "Thatcher's anti trade union legislation" was, you would get the impression from some more militant union members that these laws were a knife in the back of the working man, something akin to the dark days of Germany during the 1930s. But having read the legislation, it was actually quite tame and reasonable, most important seemed to be the necessity to require union members to be balloted and agree for strike action.
I do now as a riposte often throw back that it took a Conservative Government, a Conservative Government (a bit of reverse Kinnock there, to wind them up even more) to democratise the trade union movement....