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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump now the clear favourite on Betfair to win the Republi

SystemSystem Posts: 12,293
edited 2016 14 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump now the clear favourite on Betfair to win the Republican nomination for the Presidency

Trump now the clear favourite on the Betfair exchange to become Republican nominee. Rated a 33.3% chance. pic.twitter.com/nme8WWCdbf

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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    So the reasons the polls were wrong at GE15... not enough Tories.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35308129

    Well, blow me down... ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    So with those odds Betfair punters are giving Trump a 44% chance of winning the Presidency?

    I'd think that's a lay, if Trump is the nominee then there surely has to be greater than 56% value in the Democrats winning.

    Second like the Republicans if Trump is the nominee.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    RobD said:

    So the reasons the polls were wrong at GE15... not enough Tories.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35308129

    Well, blow me down... ;)

    And the award for stating the bleeding obvious goes to.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2016 14
    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    So with those odds Betfair punters are giving Trump a 44% chance of winning the Presidency?

    I'd think that's a lay, if Trump is the nominee then there surely has to be greater than 56% value in the Democrats winning.

    Second like the Republicans if Trump is the nominee.

    I think your maths are wrong. The Republicans are a 42% chance of winning the White House. Trump has a 33.3% chance of winning the nomination.

    That makes him, according to the betting, a 14% chance of become President.



  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So with those odds Betfair punters are giving Trump a 44% chance of winning the Presidency?

    I'd think that's a lay, if Trump is the nominee then there surely has to be greater than 56% value in the Democrats winning.

    Second like the Republicans if Trump is the nominee.

    I think your maths are wrong. The Republicans are a 42% chance of winning the White House. Trump has a 33.3% chance of winning the nomination.

    That makes him, according to the betting, a 14% chance of become President.



    If there is a 33.3% chance of Trump as nominee then we can subdivide that into two possible cases: Trump as nominee wins or Trump as nominee loses.

    The Betfair implied odds of Trump as nominee winning based on your quoted odds are ...

    14.7 / 33.3 = 44.1%

    That seems like a value lay and based on your remarks that the Republicans are 42% I don't see how that changes my logic or maths.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    OGH: Statistically independent events....

    :that-is-all:
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    :off-topic:

    Any news from Dr Stephen Fisher? His initial model was pretty good!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Greetings from Jakarta! Despite alarming reports of multiple bombs & snipers, local news (near the scene) is reporting one bomb - and the attack on a police post, when the area is swamped with 'Western' targets (McDonalds, KFC, Starbucks, the UN) yielding far more casualties and possibly the odd westerner. The only victims in an Indonesian Police Post are going to be Indonesia policemen......
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2016 14
    RobD said:

    So the reasons the polls were wrong at GE15... not enough Tories.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35308129

    Well, blow me down... ;)

    "Prof Curtice added: "A key lesson of the difficulties faced by the polls in the 2015 general election is that surveys not only need to ask the right questions but also the right people.""
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    So the reasons the polls were wrong at GE15... not enough Tories.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35308129

    Well, blow me down... ;)

    "Prof Curtice added: "A key lesson of the difficulties faced by the polls in the 2015 general election is that surveys not only need to ask the right questions but also the right people.""
    Which is another indication that Basil should have had a rest much earlier, and that the 'Shy Tories' or 'Salmond's pocket' excuses for the pollsters' failure are probably wrong.

    Why should we be paying any attention to polling at the moment, aside from the fact they can be a little fun?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    We’ve discussed sampling problems often enough not to be surprised at this, surely.
    Personal experience alert, but among my friends, mostly OAP’s, there’s a marked reluctance to answer the phone when the caller is unknown, and, if they do, to just put the phone down when words such as “survey” are used, or even just if the caller is unknown to them Far too often these turn out to be covert (often clumsily covert) fishing exercises for customers for commercial products.

    The polling companies are now, I would assume, discussing sampling techniques to actually get representative answers across the demographics. “Twill be interesting to see what emerges.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    Tim_B said:

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
    Wasn't it Al Jazeera America that had presenters resign on air last year in protest at their coverage of middle eastern politics?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    So the reasons the polls were wrong at GE15... not enough Tories.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35308129

    Well, blow me down... ;)

    "Prof Curtice added: "A key lesson of the difficulties faced by the polls in the 2015 general election is that surveys not only need to ask the right questions but also the right people.""
    They will not need to do too much, most of the extra work is being done by Jeremy Corbyn et all. Soon the Country will be full of new red Tories(if it isn't already) and the problem will disappear for a while, until Corbyn gets booted.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Spursy.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Sandpit said:

    Tim_B said:

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
    Wasn't it Al Jazeera America that had presenters resign on air last year in protest at their coverage of middle eastern politics?
    I don't know to be honest - after the novelty wore off I never paid any attention to the network.

    The original Al Jazeera was different, but there were more than enough US based news networks.
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659

    We’ve discussed sampling problems often enough not to be surprised at this, surely.
    Personal experience alert, but among my friends, mostly OAP’s, there’s a marked reluctance to answer the phone when the caller is unknown, and, if they do, to just put the phone down when words such as “survey” are used, or even just if the caller is unknown to them Far too often these turn out to be covert (often clumsily covert) fishing exercises for customers for commercial products.

    The polling companies are now, I would assume, discussing sampling techniques to actually get representative answers across the demographics. “Twill be interesting to see what emerges.

    Agreed. I am an OAP and "telephone poll" = immediate disconnection.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Sandpit said:

    Tim_B said:

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
    Wasn't it Al Jazeera America that had presenters resign on air last year in protest at their coverage of middle eastern politics?
    You may be thinking of Russia Today:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468837

    TBH I've always found Al Jazeera to be pretty objective (unlike RT - or as the old Soviet joke went 'There is no Truth in Pravda nor News in Izvestia - old habits die hard.....)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027

    So with those odds Betfair punters are giving Trump a 44% chance of winning the Presidency?

    I'd think that's a lay, if Trump is the nominee then there surely has to be greater than 56% value in the Democrats winning.

    Second like the Republicans if Trump is the nominee.

    I think your maths are wrong. The Republicans are a 42% chance of winning the White House. Trump has a 33.3% chance of winning the nomination.

    That makes him, according to the betting, a 14% chance of become President.



    If there is a 33.3% chance of Trump as nominee then we can subdivide that into two possible cases: Trump as nominee wins or Trump as nominee loses.

    The Betfair implied odds of Trump as nominee winning based on your quoted odds are ...

    14.7 / 33.3 = 44.1%

    That seems like a value lay and based on your remarks that the Republicans are 42% I don't see how that changes my logic or maths.
    While the implied figure of 44% is Trump's implied figure as candidate for the White House, you can't lay that possibility at the moment because he's not a candidate. You'd have to place bets on at least two outcomes, on the nomination and on the WH race.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925

    Sandpit said:

    Tim_B said:

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
    Wasn't it Al Jazeera America that had presenters resign on air last year in protest at their coverage of middle eastern politics?
    You may be thinking of Russia Today:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468837

    TBH I've always found Al Jazeera to be pretty objective (unlike RT - or as the old Soviet joke went 'There is no Truth in Pravda nor News in Izvestia - old habits die hard.....)
    You're right, I'm half asleep still. The AJ reporters that resigned were in Egypt, it was RT that had the Americans resign.
    Yes, AJ English (as opposed to the American channel, which was separately produced) is a pretty good source of impartial news. Spending time in the region it's quickly apparent which are the good news sources and which are the propaganda sheets. Most of the 'bias' in the good sources is by omission.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027
    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Interesting, if not particularly well written, piece from RCP about Cruz in Iowa: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/01/13/cruzs_iowa_game_plan_gets_high_marks.html

    It appears that he has been consolidating the evangelical vote there and gaining from the almost non performance of people like Huckerbee who might have split that vote. I suspect, like Obama, that these slightly absurd caucuses will play to his strengths. Whether he can put together a coalition in a primary like NH may be more open to question.

    For me, it is the question. If Rubio is to build the sort of momentum that will allow him to challenge Trump he badly needs the field to clear and Cruz to falter. A good result for Cruz in Iowa makes that less likely.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    He could be a shoo-in to win the nomination, but his negatives among women, blacks and hispanics look insuperable in the general.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027

    Sandpit said:

    Tim_B said:

    Al Jazeera America to shut down cable news channel

    Al Jazeera America was available in about 60 million American homes. Politico notes that the channel reached an average of 19,000 viewers each day

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35299367

    Making Newsnight over here look popular...

    It never got over its reputation here for being the terrorist TV network showing all the Al Qaeda videos, labelled by Dubya, even after setting up a completely US based network staffed by some well known US commentators.
    Wasn't it Al Jazeera America that had presenters resign on air last year in protest at their coverage of middle eastern politics?
    You may be thinking of Russia Today:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468837

    TBH I've always found Al Jazeera to be pretty objective (unlike RT - or as the old Soviet joke went 'There is no Truth in Pravda nor News in Izvestia - old habits die hard.....)
    Agreed. RT is so obviously Kremlin news and views that it's only worth watching to see what the Kremlin would like saying. AJ, by contrast, is very good - particularly with so much world news coming from the Middle East.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,751

    So with those odds Betfair punters are giving Trump a 44% chance of winning the Presidency?

    I'd think that's a lay, if Trump is the nominee then there surely has to be greater than 56% value in the Democrats winning.

    Second like the Republicans if Trump is the nominee.

    I think your maths are wrong. The Republicans are a 42% chance of winning the White House. Trump has a 33.3% chance of winning the nomination.

    That makes him, according to the betting, a 14% chance of become President.



    If there is a 33.3% chance of Trump as nominee then we can subdivide that into two possible cases: Trump as nominee wins or Trump as nominee loses.

    The Betfair implied odds of Trump as nominee winning based on your quoted odds are ...

    14.7 / 33.3 = 44.1%

    That seems like a value lay and based on your remarks that the Republicans are 42% I don't see how that changes my logic or maths.
    You're correct, and if Betfair worked with zero commission and 'on credit' you might be able to take advantage, but laying Trump for the presidency and backing for the nomination doesn't work due to commission and the time value of money.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Tweet_Dec 11 hrs11 hours ago Camberwell, London
    There's a lot to take in here.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYoSLgAUAAAoIgt.png
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598

    We’ve discussed sampling problems often enough not to be surprised at this, surely.
    Personal experience alert, but among my friends, mostly OAP’s, there’s a marked reluctance to answer the phone when the caller is unknown, and, if they do, to just put the phone down when words such as “survey” are used, or even just if the caller is unknown to them Far too often these turn out to be covert (often clumsily covert) fishing exercises for customers for commercial products.

    Yes, and of course political activists are the reverse, all too eager to take part. I always do phone and email surveys, hoping to produce an 0.1% impact on the next poll, and usually find I'm being asked whether I'd be proud to work for Shredded Wheat and how many foreign holidays I plan. Ironically, the one time when I actually got a political poll (Populus), in an intermission during a Labour event, I happily answered questions for about 10 minutes and then had to hang up and invalidate the responses as Ed Miliband wanted to see me. Sigh.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    And Jakarta reports still developing - take care of yourself, Carlotta.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Good morning, everyone.

    Still hope Rubio gets it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    There is a point where patience slips into complicity, where Corbyn’s critics stop being “moderates” and become feckless wimps. They need not storm off, but they owe it to their party and their country to resist. The removal of Jeremy Corbyn from the leadership and the Labour party is the most urgent cause in progressive politics today.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4664562.ece
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    ronically, the one time when I actually got a political poll (Populus), in an intermission during a Labour event, I happily answered questions for about 10 minutes and then had to hang up and invalidate the responses as Ed Miliband wanted to see me. Sigh.

    Far be it for me to suggest that might be the summation of a wasted life, Nick, but....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    There is less than a month to go until Iowa, Trump leads in both the early states and nationally, if he wins both Iowa and New Hampshire he would be the first candidate to do so in the Republican primaries in modern political history, at least outside of incumbents. It would be a humiliation for the GOP establishment much as the Labour establishment faced on the election of Corbyn
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Almost sorry I missed this
    When Alex Salmond agreed to be a “shock jock” on his own weekly LBC radio phone-in show, he must have reckoned it was easy money. How hard could it be to joust with the great British public for half an hour on a Wednesday afternoon?

    Mr Salmond reckoned without Paul from St Albans.

    Mr Salmond began reciting statistics about Scottish employment before his temper clearly got the better of him and a tone of angry condescension crept into his voice. “So don’t start talking about Scotland from your position in St Albans — some poor wee place that’s . . .” We will never know Mr Salmond’s considered view of St Albans because he was interrupted yet again. “I never said that at all, Mr Salmond. Don’t put words in my mouth.”

    And so it continued until Mr Dale made a suggestion. “Shall we move on from St Albans and go to our next caller?” A grateful Mr Salmond swiftly replied: “Yes, indeed.”
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4664901.ece
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The FT has a long and not particularly sympathetic profile of Seumas Milne:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/30e48096-b9ec-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3xCgL5M00

    Sample quotes:

    "He disputed the media’s definition of centrist politics. “That is the centre ground as perceived by City of London corporations and the corporate-controlled media.”

    That opinion may explain why he has barely bothered to talk to lobby journalists, leaving that to his deputy. “You might as well use a Ouija board to try to contact him,” says one political editor."

    "In the 1980s he chaired the local Labour party in Hammersmith, where Clive Soley was the sitting MP. Lord Soley (as he is now) remembers him as a young man who leaned towards Marxism. “He was oversympathetic to autocratic regimes and undersympathetic to countries with the rule of law and democracy,” he recalls. “That is the worst aspect of the hard left.” "
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    CNN had a pre-break tease earlier: "There is major news this evening on the scale of the increase in size of the FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton and the Clinton foundation".

    Unfortunately I can't tell you what it is, as on coming back from break they went straight to events in Jakarta.

    Here are a couple of articles for an overview on where things stand, and potential perils.

    http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/ex-doj-official-twisted-hillary-scandal-is-felony-corruption/

    http://www.wnd.com/2016/01/ex-u-s-attorney-predicts-special-prosecutor-for-hillary/

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/01/13/hillary_clintons_coming_legal_crisis_129293.html

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Good morning, everyone.

    Still hope Rubio gets it.

    - the upgraded Honda engine?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    We’ve discussed sampling problems often enough not to be surprised at this, surely.
    Personal experience alert, but among my friends, mostly OAP’s, there’s a marked reluctance to answer the phone when the caller is unknown, and, if they do, to just put the phone down when words such as “survey” are used, or even just if the caller is unknown to them Far too often these turn out to be covert (often clumsily covert) fishing exercises for customers for commercial products.

    The polling companies are now, I would assume, discussing sampling techniques to actually get representative answers across the demographics. “Twill be interesting to see what emerges.

    Agreed. I am an OAP and "telephone poll" = immediate disconnection.
    I am not but I do exactly the same. "It will only take a minute" never does, and they always ask lots of personal and intrusive questions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    A point I have made before is that because of the widely covered Republican nominee debates, the voters - certainly those who will go to caucuses and vote in primaries - are better aware of the candidates than at any other cycle to select the nominees. It may be that these voters have weighed their options earlier than we are used to, found they are all a bunch of clowns, but in the giant custard pie fight, Trump has the most panache.

    Trump has one hand on the nomination and nobody seems to have the ability to prise his fingers away from it one at a time.

    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    edited 2016 14
    DavidL said:

    Interesting, if not particularly well written, piece from RCP about Cruz in Iowa: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/01/13/cruzs_iowa_game_plan_gets_high_marks.html

    It appears that he has been consolidating the evangelical vote there and gaining from the almost non performance of people like Huckerbee who might have split that vote. I suspect, like Obama, that these slightly absurd caucuses will play to his strengths. Whether he can put together a coalition in a primary like NH may be more open to question.

    For me, it is the question. If Rubio is to build the sort of momentum that will allow him to challenge Trump he badly needs the field to clear and Cruz to falter. A good result for Cruz in Iowa makes that less likely.

    Rubio is the Andy Burnham of this race, he held on in the betting for a while even after he was overtaken in the polls but now even his lead there has fallen. Like Burnham in the end, despite the fact he polled best in general election matchups, the activists saw him as yet another establishment insider. Yougov yesterday asked Republican voters to use three words or phrases to describe each candidate. Trump had three positives 'Bold, strong, Washington outsider' while Rubio had two negatives 'establishment candidate, typical politician' and only one positive 'honest' which says it all about his campaign
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Shami Chakrabarti is standing down from Liberty, whilst not always agreeing with her I admire her tenacity
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Fwiw I don't answer the phone at all if I don't recognise the number. I'm still a long way from OAPdom.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. B, Rubio is not an F1 driver.

    Of course, if Marussia/Manor had their old name I could've made a joke about him slipping into a Virgin. But they don't. So I can't.

    Mr. HYUFD, Rubio can't be that bad, surely?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    And Jakarta reports still developing - take care of yourself, Carlotta.

    Thank you - but Twitter is notoriously unreliable and Jakarta a rumour mill without equal.

    I am, and remain, at much greater danger from Jakarta traffic than any terrorist!

    In the four hours since this started more than twice as many will have died on Indonesia's roads (or from guns in the US, for that matter...)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,751
    There must be a certain guest editor's friend who is enjoying this fred.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2016 14
    BT call Guardian 8500 is outstanding.. no more calls from Nigerians or other types of scammers or people trying to flog you stuff you do not want.... When they hit call guardian the call ends.. A quick check of the number calling using google usually tells all.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    Wanderer said:

    Fwiw I don't answer the phone at all if I don't recognise the number. I'm still a long way from OAPdom.

    Same here. If you want to talk to me, and your number isn't known, leave a message and I will decide whether I want to grant you an audience... Somewhat imperious, admittedly, but at least I have no issues wasting my time with cold callers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144

    Mr. B, Rubio is not an F1 driver.

    Of course, if Marussia/Manor had their old name I could've made a joke about him slipping into a Virgin. But they don't. So I can't.

    Mr. HYUFD, Rubio can't be that bad, surely?

    He started off his campaign with endorsements galore from congressmen and governors and a clear lead in general election matchups yet managed to lose to a populist buffoon. It really does seem like he has been reading a signed copy of 'The Andy Burnham guide to losing leadership elections'
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    Saffers win toss and will bat.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GPW_Portland: One to watch: the supersmart @patel4witham gets a mega write-up in @thetimes from @montie - singling her out as next PM.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    We’ve discussed sampling problems often enough not to be surprised at this, surely.
    Personal experience alert, but among my friends, mostly OAP’s, there’s a marked reluctance to answer the phone when the caller is unknown, and, if they do, to just put the phone down when words such as “survey” are used, or even just if the caller is unknown to them Far too often these turn out to be covert (often clumsily covert) fishing exercises for customers for commercial products.

    The polling companies are now, I would assume, discussing sampling techniques to actually get representative answers across the demographics. “Twill be interesting to see what emerges.

    Agreed. I am an OAP and "telephone poll" = immediate disconnection.
    I am not but I do exactly the same. "It will only take a minute" never does, and they always ask lots of personal and intrusive questions.
    That is a very real problem. The pollsters need to ask fewer questions, perhaps only one or two, and forget the supplementaries. Even with online surveys, I normally get bored and give up after a minute or two.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027
    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Mark, I often take a similar approach (not fond of telephones generally).

    Mr. HYUFD, he hasn't lost yet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144

    Mr. Mark, I often take a similar approach (not fond of telephones generally).

    Mr. HYUFD, he hasn't lost yet.

    When two words Republican voters use to describe him are 'establishment candidate and typical politician' and when he trails Trump both in Iowa and New Hampshire and nationally too it will take a miracle for him to win the nomination now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    edited 2016 14

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
    Yes a few people on this site still refused to believe Corbyn would do it too with just weeks to go despite all the polling evidence to the contrary
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,254

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
    The GOP establishment will presumably be putting pressure on Bush and Christie to drop out after New Hampshire and back Rubio
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited 2016 14

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    Clinton is a whisker away from being impeached. The FBI is in open rebellion right now over her and if she is not impeached there is a very high likelihood of the FBI director having to stand down. FBI staff have a damning dossier on Hillary / Benghazi and other things. So...in the hypothetical scenario where we see a clean / unencumbered / un-outed / undamaged / un-Donalded Clinton fighting a fair fight against Trump - she might well win (but don't underestimate how viscerally the right and many independents hate her - Hillary Rodham AntiChrist). In the real world trump will go to town on her. Buy some popcorn.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    People like Trump because they like what he says and the way he says it. He's refreshingly non-PC, his views are plain and he makes no apologies for them.

    He has shown an uncanny knack to tap into people's anger and fears, and to drive the news cycle.

    The one exception is the Cruz 'natural born' business which does not seem to be gaining traction.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    Patrick said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    Clinton is a whisker away from being impeached. The FBI is in open rebellion right now over her and if she is not impeached there is a very high likelihood of the FBI director having to stand down. FBI staff have a damning dossier on Hillary / Benghazi and other things. So...in the hypothetical scenario where we see a clean / unencumbered / un-outed / undamaged / un-Donalded Clinton fighting a fair fight against Trump - she might well win (but don't underestimate how viscerally the right and many independents hate her - Hillary Rodham AntiChrist). In the real world trump will go to town on her. Buy some popcorn.
    If it gets to the point where the FBI Chief(s) stand down claiming political interference, then she's the proverbial cooked bread. Time to start laying?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Patrick said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    Clinton is a whisker away from being impeached. The FBI is in open rebellion right now over her and if she is not impeached there is a very high likelihood of the FBI director having to stand down. FBI staff have a damning dossier on Hillary / Benghazi and other things. So...in the hypothetical scenario where we see a clean / unencumbered / un-outed / undamaged / un-Donalded Clinton fighting a fair fight against Trump - she might well win (but don't underestimate how viscerally the right and many independents hate her - Hillary Rodham AntiChrist). In the real world trump will go to town on her. Buy some popcorn.
    Some interesting points, but Congress impeaches, the FBI indicts
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    Is it somewhere you don't want your grandchildren to go, either?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    I'm not sure about us having to join the Euro.

    There is no way to force a country to join the Euro who doesn't want to join. We have no treaty obligation to join. And the ECJ has no competence to make us. (And if they did, we'd just invoke Article 50, anyway.)

    Really, the only reason we'd join the Euro would be if - for some reason - the Euro were to become an enormous success, and the willingness of the world's investors to hold pounds was severely diminished. I.e., in some kind of major, multi decade, sterling crisis.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    rcs1000 said:

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    I'm not sure about us having to join the Euro.

    There is no way to force a country to join the Euro who doesn't want to join. We have no treaty obligation to join. And the ECJ has no competence to make us. (And if they did, we'd just invoke Article 50, anyway.)

    Really, the only reason we'd join the Euro would be if - for some reason - the Euro were to become an enormous success, and the willingness of the world's investors to hold pounds was severely diminished. I.e., in some kind of major, multi decade, sterling crisis.
    We'd have no obligation to join, but if the EZ countries integrate further without allowing us more freedoms outside the EZ, then it will be increasingly more difficult for us to stay out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    Mr, @rcs1000, do you have a link to your Crowdscores app mentioned yesterday? I can't see it from a brief App Store search.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    Is it somewhere you don't want your grandchildren to go, either?
    Well, we don't know what the state of the world or Europe will be in fifty years time. But as we can only deal with the world as it is, not with any prospective super-amazing-brilliant EZ, then no, I don't.

    If the situation changes than I might change my mind. But I wasn't for joining the EZ fifteen years ago, and subsequent events proved me right. ;)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    Good morning, everyone.

    Still hope Rubio gets it.

    Rubio would wipe the floor with Hillary. A sensible, young, fresh, Hispanic, Republican without ethical issues, at a time when the US wants a Republican President. It'd be a landslide.

    Trump: it could go either way. I'd reckon the 44% chance of the Presidency in the event of being nominee is about right. He'd lost California, New York and Florida to Hillary, but would gain a bunch of rust belt states.

    Cruz comes across very well in Texas and the South. But he's not got national appeal outside that evangelical demographic. He's also a bit weird. I think Hillary beats Cruz three out of four times.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2016 14
    3 winners will share the $1.6 billion Powerball (or Powerful as the beeb insists on calling it).

    One in Los Angeles, one in Tennessee and one in Florida.

    Each store owner selling a winning ticket gets $1 million.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Sandpit said:

    Mr, @rcs1000, do you have a link to your Crowdscores app mentioned yesterday? I can't see it from a brief App Store search.

    Here is the Apple link: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/crowdscores-livescore-live/id773137002?mt=8

    I can find you the Google one if you need it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Sandpit said:

    Patrick said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    Clinton is a whisker away from being impeached. The FBI is in open rebellion right now over her and if she is not impeached there is a very high likelihood of the FBI director having to stand down. FBI staff have a damning dossier on Hillary / Benghazi and other things. So...in the hypothetical scenario where we see a clean / unencumbered / un-outed / undamaged / un-Donalded Clinton fighting a fair fight against Trump - she might well win (but don't underestimate how viscerally the right and many independents hate her - Hillary Rodham AntiChrist). In the real world trump will go to town on her. Buy some popcorn.
    If it gets to the point where the FBI Chief(s) stand down claiming political interference, then she's the proverbial cooked bread. Time to start laying?
    I've been laying Hillary for the Presidency. I'm on a couple of long-shot Dems for the nomination too.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
    The GOP establishment will presumably be putting pressure on Bush and Christie to drop out after New Hampshire and back Rubio
    If they want to make a difference, they'll need all three to drop out and back Cruz. Two losers back third loser is not an ideal media narrative. But the GOP are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Trump may be close to unelectable (though up against an indicted Hillary - if she is - or Socialist Sanders, who knows?), but Cruz is barely better and comes with the baggage of an existing politician. And Rubio, for all his youthfulness, is not much less extreme.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr, @rcs1000, do you have a link to your Crowdscores app mentioned yesterday? I can't see it from a brief App Store search.

    Here is the Apple link: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/crowdscores-livescore-live/id773137002?mt=8

    I can find you the Google one if you need it.
    Shukran habibi. Will take a look and post a review.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
    The GOP establishment will presumably be putting pressure on Bush and Christie to drop out after New Hampshire and back Rubio
    If they want to make a difference, they'll need all three to drop out and back Cruz. Two losers back third loser is not an ideal media narrative. But the GOP are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Trump may be close to unelectable (though up against an indicted Hillary - if she is - or Socialist Sanders, who knows?), but Cruz is barely better and comes with the baggage of an existing politician. And Rubio, for all his youthfulness, is not much less extreme.
    Cruz is also unpopular in DC circles
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    A point I have made before is that because of the widely covered Republican nominee debates, the voters - certainly those who will go to caucuses and vote in primaries - are better aware of the candidates than at any other cycle to select the nominees. It may be that these voters have weighed their options earlier than we are used to, found they are all a bunch of clowns, but in the giant custard pie fight, Trump has the most panache.

    Trump has one hand on the nomination and nobody seems to have the ability to prise his fingers away from it one at a time.

    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    A 'woman president / PM' doesn't count if she's her husband's wife or her father's daughter.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Indeed, I'm lower than Ed Miliband on May 8th.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Indeed, I'm lower than Ed Miliband on May 8th.
    Become a Liverpool fan. We're going to win the title next season if we get a decent keeper/defence
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    rcs1000 said:

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    I'm not sure about us having to join the Euro.

    There is no way to force a country to join the Euro who doesn't want to join. We have no treaty obligation to join. And the ECJ has no competence to make us. (And if they did, we'd just invoke Article 50, anyway.)

    Really, the only reason we'd join the Euro would be if - for some reason - the Euro were to become an enormous success, and the willingness of the world's investors to hold pounds was severely diminished. I.e., in some kind of major, multi decade, sterling crisis.
    We'd have no obligation to join, but if the EZ countries integrate further without allowing us more freedoms outside the EZ, then it will be increasingly more difficult for us to stay out.
    I suspect it will be increasingly difficult for us to stay in... the EU...

    We are a block to the reforms that the Eurozone needs to make. We have different priorities. It will be harder for them to do what they need to do, if we are members. We will also be fundamentally unhappy if we stay a member of a club where we not fully committed.

    I think that ourselves, the Swedes, the Poles, and a few other countries* should get together and try and organise a amicable move to EFTA/EEA. Everyone would be happier.

    * I keep debating about whether Denmark would make the shift. While they are not members of the Euro in theory, they have maintained a (incredibly tight) currency peg with it. They are therefore de facto, rather than de jure, members of the Eurozone.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Pulpstar said:

    There must be a certain guest editor's friend who is enjoying this fred.

    My friend is consoling himself with the fact his losses will be smaller than winnings he made in some Scottish constituencies last May.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Tim_B said:

    Cruz is also unpopular in DC circles

    I think Cruz is pretty much the only Republican who'd be odds on to lose against Hillary.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Indeed, I'm lower than Ed Miliband on May 8th.
    Become a Liverpool fan. We're going to win the title next season if we get a decent keeper/defence
    Nah, you've gone backwards under Klopp. I went to Anfield last night and thought Liverpool were average; you should have stuck with Rodgers. Don't be fooled by a decent performance against the only team in the PL that plays 4-1-5.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    First 10 overs go for only 27 runs. Not too bad a start from the bowlers.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Just finished marathon Making A Murderer. No spoilers, but what a cracking docus.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,246
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Oh btw I see Grayling has broken cover and called membership of the EU disastrous. I'm curious to see if this is the start of a concerted campaign from Tory rebels or if he turns out to be the sacrificial lamb.

    I haven't read or heard Grayling's words directly, but the summary of his views on R5L seemed utterly reasonable. But I would say that, as they appeared to match my views rather well.

    I cannot see the EU moving away from further EZ integration, or treating the non-EZ countries significantly differently from the EZ countries (two-speed Europe). This means that eventually we would have to join the Euro. And that's somewhere I don't want to go.
    I'm not sure about us having to join the Euro.

    There is no way to force a country to join the Euro who doesn't want to join. We have no treaty obligation to join. And the ECJ has no competence to make us. (And if they did, we'd just invoke Article 50, anyway.)

    Really, the only reason we'd join the Euro would be if - for some reason - the Euro were to become an enormous success, and the willingness of the world's investors to hold pounds was severely diminished. I.e., in some kind of major, multi decade, sterling crisis.
    We'd have no obligation to join, but if the EZ countries integrate further without allowing us more freedoms outside the EZ, then it will be increasingly more difficult for us to stay out.
    I suspect it will be increasingly difficult for us to stay in... the EU...

    We are a block to the reforms that the Eurozone needs to make. We have different priorities. It will be harder for them to do what they need to do, if we are members. We will also be fundamentally unhappy if we stay a member of a club where we not fully committed.

    I think that ourselves, the Swedes, the Poles, and a few other countries* should get together and try and organise a amicable move to EFTA/EEA. Everyone would be happier.

    * I keep debating about whether Denmark would make the shift. While they are not members of the Euro in theory, they have maintained a (incredibly tight) currency peg with it. They are therefore de facto, rather than de jure, members of the Eurozone.
    That's basically the choice we have to make: to join the Euro or leave the EU.

    I'm tending to treat the upcoming referendum as referring to that question in the medium and long term.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,751
    Sandpit said:

    First 10 overs go for only 27 runs. Not too bad a start from the bowlers.

    Overcast, tricky batting. South Africa will take that every time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    edited 2016 14
    Patrick said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Trump is still too long for the nomination. One chance in three for a candidate who's led the polls for six months and through several debates, is leading both nationally and in the early states (possibly not Iowa but if not he's certainly close and he and Cruz are way clear of third), seems unusually generous.

    I can only put it down to punters not believing that such an unorthodox individual could do it on the day(s). Such thinking ignores recent precedent from various countries across the world (including the UK), and America's unusually open political system. While that openness rarely permeates up to presidential level, it's common at very senior levels below it for non-politicians to come in, run for, and win office.

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.
    Expected outcome? Trump v Clinton, with America feeling good about electing its first woman President.
    Clinton is a whisker away from being impeached. The FBI is in open rebellion right now over her and if she is not impeached there is a very high likelihood of the FBI director having to stand down. FBI staff have a damning dossier on Hillary / Benghazi and other things. So...in the hypothetical scenario where we see a clean / unencumbered / un-outed / undamaged / un-Donalded Clinton fighting a fair fight against Trump - she might well win (but don't underestimate how viscerally the right and many independents hate her - Hillary Rodham AntiChrist). In the real world trump will go to town on her. Buy some popcorn.
    Hillary beats Trump in 90% of the polls, the Hispanic and female vote alone should see her beat him. If she is indicted and convicted her delegates would just go to Biden anyway who would also beat Trump
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    Scott_P said:

    @GPW_Portland: One to watch: the supersmart @patel4witham gets a mega write-up in @thetimes from @montie - singling her out as next PM.

    About time!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Saffers win toss and will bat.

    Spurs bowling - nothing on target.
    LOL! I'm feeling a little happier about my bet with @blackburn63 this morning. Still can't see Leicester keeping it up though, they'll start being tired/injured/suspended at some point soon and don't have the squad depth of those around them. Not that that's much consolation to the Spurs fans.
    Indeed, I'm lower than Ed Miliband on May 8th.
    Become a Liverpool fan. We're going to win the title next season if we get a decent keeper/defence
    Nah, you've gone backwards under Klopp. I went to Anfield last night and thought Liverpool were average; you should have stuck with Rodgers. Don't be fooled by a decent performance against the only team in the PL that plays 4-1-5.
    A draw against the team that are top of the league is always a good result. Was great to see Liverpool refusing to accept the defeat until the final whistle, unlike in recent seasons.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    rcs1000 said:



    I suspect it will be increasingly difficult for us to stay in... the EU...

    We are a block to the reforms that the Eurozone needs to make. We have different priorities. It will be harder for them to do what they need to do, if we are members. We will also be fundamentally unhappy if we stay a member of a club where we not fully committed.

    I think that ourselves, the Swedes, the Poles, and a few other countries* should get together and try and organise a amicable move to EFTA/EEA. Everyone would be happier.

    The status of Euro/non-Euro members is going to have to be formalised at some point. Possibly EU=Euro, EEA=non-Euro is the natural answer.

    That is a mile away from the actual debate we are having though, which is dominated by migration.

    Also, at present, the Euro looks like a terminally fucked idea. But it might not forever
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. 1000, using reason rather than ideology to make political and economic decisions?

    This is the EU we're discussing.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Sandpit said:

    First 10 overs go for only 27 runs. Not too bad a start from the bowlers.

    There's not been a sniff of taking a wicket... worrying.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,027
    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    The problem with that approach is that most of the polling to date has really been not much more than name awareness where Trump undoubtedly scores high. I agree that American politics is unusually open but I really cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP. I think you would have to go back to Eisenhower to find someone less republican getting the nomination.

    The reason why Trump's odds remain so attractive is because many people "cannot see a Trump figure being selected by the GOP", but that's only because they're not looking.

    It's much more than name awareness now. Were that the case, Bush would still be riding high. He isn't, because people looked at him and decided they didn't like what they saw; the same as Fiorina and Carson, both of whom rose in the polls only to then subside. Trump, who's been the subject of a lot of scrutiny and a lot of attack, has held on not because people know the name but because they like what he says (and perhaps also how he says it).

    The wheels may still come off his bandwagon but then they may also come of Cruz's: it's not as if he doesn't have negatives.

    The question you have to ask is why you don't see him winning the nomination? Is it because you think he would be a bad choice? If so, I'd agree with the assessment, but it's not what we think that matters. Is it because the GOP establishment don't like him? If so, while the sentiment is no doubt true, how do they stop him? Or is it because you think the voters will reject him; voters that have consistently backed him over months now, including in states where there's now serious campaigning going on?

    Trump may not win the nomination but he should be a lot shorter than 2/1.
    The GOP establishment will presumably be putting pressure on Bush and Christie to drop out after New Hampshire and back Rubio
    If they want to make a difference, they'll need all three to drop out and back Cruz. Two losers back third loser is not an ideal media narrative. But the GOP are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Trump may be close to unelectable (though up against an indicted Hillary - if she is - or Socialist Sanders, who knows?), but Cruz is barely better and comes with the baggage of an existing politician. And Rubio, for all his youthfulness, is not much less extreme.
    Cruz is also unpopular in DC circles
    Indeed, but between them, Trump and Cruz are highly likely to dominate the primaries / caucuses between now and Super Tuesday. Unless someone can make a breakthrough (breakback) in the next three weeks, they'll always be an also-ran.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    Mr. 1000, using reason rather than ideology to make political and economic decisions?

    This is the EU we're discussing.

    The EU is 28 people in a room trying to do the right thing, and usually failing. Not because they are evil or malicious. But because there are 28 different countries, with 28 different needs. And therefore the call to "more Europe" seems like an easy get out.
  • For me the key driver of the US election outcome is going to be the debasement and anger of middle America. Sure GDP/capita is higher in the US than Europe - but it is grossly more unequally distributed. Have any PB'ers been to the US lately? I have. It's a bit of a depressing dump. Middle America is doing really badly, is really worried, and is losing hope (just look at the suicide stats). They're very very down on the political elites of both parties. I saw a poll yesterday that showed just 42% of Americans now associate themselves with either party. The NOTA party (independents) is much the largest constituency. And they're angry.

    Many of these angry NOTAs were the ones who elected Republicans to the Senate and state governments. They sent them there to do a job which they have simply failed to come good on. Republican elites are just as venal and self serving as Democrat ones. This is, incidentally, why the GOP machine is so very scared of Cruz - he really means it when he says he wants to end the gravy train. They hate Trump but fear Cruz. Rubio is much more a GOP machine candidate.

    So... I think the 'big mo' is with the candidate who is most likely to speak to the fears and grievances of the man in the street. Right now that is clearly Trump. Possibly Cruz. For damn sure it ain't Hillary. Us liberal, wishy washy, civilised, snooty Europeans may look at Trump with a certain de-haut-en-bas disdain. Get over it. I think he is going to win the presidency. Actually I hope he is too. Their political system has become ossified and corrupt - it needs to be broken before it can be rebuilt. And that is clearly the view of a massive number of ordinary Americans too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    rcs1000 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Still hope Rubio gets it.

    Rubio would wipe the floor with Hillary. A sensible, young, fresh, Hispanic, Republican without ethical issues, at a time when the US wants a Republican President. It'd be a landslide.

    Trump: it could go either way. I'd reckon the 44% chance of the Presidency in the event of being nominee is about right. He'd lost California, New York and Florida to Hillary, but would gain a bunch of rust belt states.

    Cruz comes across very well in Texas and the South. But he's not got national appeal outside that evangelical demographic. He's also a bit weird. I think Hillary beats Cruz three out of four times.
    Rubio is an excellent candidate: his oratory is inspiring and he's an excellent debater.

    So far as I can tell he's got two main problems:

    (1) His platform seems to be based around saying he wants a 2nd American Century, and talking about how his father was a bartender and he is a senator, which is the American Dream. But that's it. I can't see anything else distinctive he's offering.
    2) He looks too shiny, glossy, well-turned out and perfect which makes him look like an establishment candidate, even when he is not, and that isn't helped by his liberal position on immigration.

    I think Republican voters this time round want a bit of rough.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925

    Sandpit said:

    First 10 overs go for only 27 runs. Not too bad a start from the bowlers.

    There's not been a sniff of taking a wicket... worrying.
    Let's see what Ali can do with the ball, looks like good conditions for the spinner.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    That's basically the choice we have to make: to join the Euro or leave the EU.

    I'm tending to treat the upcoming referendum as referring to that question in the medium and long term.

    I don't agree which is why I am leaning towards voting Remain. In a rather limited space of time the EU has gone from demanding all member nations join the Euro (including wanting it for the UK which had an opt-out) to giving a de facto opt-out to every nation that wants it even if they don't have one, such as Sweden etc

    Following the Greek crisis the realisation that the Euro is not for everyone has dawned across Europe.
This discussion has been closed.