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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Labour wasn’t so obsessed with fighting itself it would

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited January 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Labour wasn’t so obsessed with fighting itself it would be having a field day over the doctors’ strike

It is not often that industrial action in the public sector attracts the level of support shown in the overnight Ipsos MORI poll for Newsnight. A split of four to one in favour of the doctors suggests that Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, still has a long way to go in winning the political argument over his tough stance.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    1st
    Insert here how many months/days/hours/ minutes to save the NHS.
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044
    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    1) Only if they manage to get media presence. Sadly, their losses at the GE have made that much harder. Farron is pretty much invisible.

    2) "... this dreadful government." Which is odd, as in many ways it is just continuity coalition. Certainly they don't seem to have massively changed tack politically since the end of the coalition.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,727
    Another day, another Shadow Cabinet resignation?

    Meanwhile:

    The BBC has fought back against nationalist claims it is failing Scotland by unveiling figures showing SNP ministers have grossly underestimated how much it spends on Scottish programming and that its TV channels are more popular than in England.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12093876/BBC-fights-back-against-SNPs-failing-Scotland-claims.html
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,583

    Another day, another Shadow Cabinet resignation?

    Meanwhile:

    The BBC has fought back against nationalist claims it is failing Scotland by unveiling figures showing SNP ministers have grossly underestimated how much it spends on Scottish programming and that its TV channels are more popular than in England.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12093876/BBC-fights-back-against-SNPs-failing-Scotland-claims.html

    What? Another Scottish Nationalist arithmetic problem?

    They really need to sort out that adult education system...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    FPT:

    Wow, that sounds pretty complicated ..... who in your opinion would stand the best chance against Hillary, since this is really what should be concentrating Republican voters' minds.

    That's easy:

    Rubio hammers Clinton
    Trump and Clinton have a close race
    Clinton hammers Cruz
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    1) Only if they manage to get media presence. Sadly, their losses at the GE have made that much harder. Farron is pretty much invisible.

    2) "... this dreadful government." Which is odd, as in many ways it is just continuity coalition. Certainly they don't seem to have massively changed tack politically since the end of the coalition.
    I don't think you can blame the media. The truth is that Farron ("the great campaigner") has done very little since becoming leader. It is - of course - possible that he is secretly racing around the country generating support at a local level for the LibDems. But it seems more likely that all his focus went on becoming leader, and little on what he'd do when he got there.
  • Options

    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    1) Only if they manage to get media presence. Sadly, their losses at the GE have made that much harder. Farron is pretty much invisible.

    2) "... this dreadful government." Which is odd, as in many ways it is just continuity coalition. Certainly they don't seem to have massively changed tack politically since the end of the coalition.
    I agree ..... I don't see the LibDems progressing very far with Farron at the helm and recent polls support this view. Presumably with so few MPs, they will lose much of their previous generous time allocation with regard to party political broadcasts, etc.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044
    rcs1000 said:

    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    1) Only if they manage to get media presence. Sadly, their losses at the GE have made that much harder. Farron is pretty much invisible.

    2) "... this dreadful government." Which is odd, as in many ways it is just continuity coalition. Certainly they don't seem to have massively changed tack politically since the end of the coalition.
    I don't think you can blame the media. The truth is that Farron ("the great campaigner") has done very little since becoming leader. It is - of course - possible that he is secretly racing around the country generating support at a local level for the LibDems. But it seems more likely that all his focus went on becoming leader, and little on what he'd do when he got there.
    I'm not blaming the media: the Lib Dems have lost much of their political power, and the media are reflecting that.

    Agree about Farron; I'm disappointed so far.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,583
    edited January 2016
    From the Mirror Article:

    "With emergency care ruled out, opposition to the strike rises to 39% and support dips to 44%."

    That's a loss of 22% support because of something they didn't need to do.

    What happens when Jeremy Hunt maintains his position after the strike mandate expires?

    If I recall there were only two outstanding points of disagreement out of more than 20 at Christmas. Will the strike mandate be renewed over that?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,727
    MattW said:

    Another day, another Shadow Cabinet resignation?

    Meanwhile:

    The BBC has fought back against nationalist claims it is failing Scotland by unveiling figures showing SNP ministers have grossly underestimated how much it spends on Scottish programming and that its TV channels are more popular than in England.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12093876/BBC-fights-back-against-SNPs-failing-Scotland-claims.html

    What? Another Scottish Nationalist arithmetic problem?

    They really need to sort out that adult education system...
    In a comprehensive dismantling of Ms Hyslop’s £35 million claim, it said the BBC spent £49.4 million on Scottish-only content for BBC One in 2014/15, £18.5 million for BBC Two and £6 million for the Gaelic channel BBC Alba.
    The Corporation also spent £21.7 million on programmes for Radio Scotland, £3.7 million for the Gaelic Radio nan Gaidheal, £4.6 million on Scottish content accessed online and via the TV red button and £4.3 million on the Scottish Symphony Orchestra.


    In fairness she was only out by a factor of 2 on the TV spend...which is a bit better than they did on the 'bonus' of oil.....

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-11/morgan-stanley-sees-20-a-barrel-oil-on-u-s-dollar-appreciation

    Which is rapidly heading to a factor of 5......
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    Biden?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    There aren't more Lib Dem MPs because they were dreadful in government. Criticising is what they're best at (though Norman Lamb was an honourable exception there and is, Labour woes or not, probably the best person the media could have gone to anyway for a credible comment against the govt).

    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311
    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    I believe someone (ahem) tipped Biden at 200/1.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/21/time-to-back-biden-if-you-can/

    He's said that he regrets not running and is perfectly placed to do a Humphrey. Obviously, Humphrey lost but 1968 was a strange election in many ways, and healthcare is not Vietnam, Trump is not Nixon, and some dodgy e-mails are not an assassin's bullet.
  • Options
    On Topic -

    The Times recently reported that "Trotskyite doctors’ chief wants to topple Tories" and I would imagine that it is this line which the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt will be attempting to get across to the great British public, who willy-nilly may always be relied upon to a man or woman to vote for anything relating to their beloved National Health Service, irrespective of the merits of the case, or heaven forbid the costs involved .... truly a bottomless pit if ever there was one.
  • Options
    Why should people who go on strike be allowed to vote? Why shouldn't killing Labour voters be regarded as self-defence? Why shouldn't Toryism be compulsory?

    These are obvious examples of shortcomings in our education system :(
  • Options
    Why can't I correct the previous comment?
  • Options
    Apparently I can, now. If I want to.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311
    edited January 2016

    Why can't I correct the previous comment?

    Yes, the correction function seems to have disappeared. Your straw men will have to remain in their current form in perpetuity.

    Edit, no its back.
  • Options

    Why can't I correct the previous comment?

    Have you tried clicking on the "sun" emblem appearing at the top right hand corner of your post, enabling you it edit it for a period of 6 minutes?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311
    The bit of the thread header that I find most interesting is Corbyn and McDonnell not turning up for the meeting of the PLP. Is that very unusual? Would the Eds ever not turn up?

    You'd like to think that the PLP would use their absence to work out who they actually want to lead them in the Commons but they probably didn't.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    I believe someone (ahem) tipped Biden at 200/1.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/21/time-to-back-biden-if-you-can/

    He's said that he regrets not running and is perfectly placed to do a Humphrey. Obviously, Humphrey lost but 1968 was a strange election in many ways, and healthcare is not Vietnam, Trump is not Nixon, and some dodgy e-mails are not an assassin's bullet.
    Good shout David, although if it's not to be Hillary (or Saunders), then it could be anyone .... all of whom are at three figure odds.
    For fun, I've just done a spot of bottom fishing, picking up 52p's worth of Elizabeth Warren with Betfair at the modest price of 451/1, net of their commission. It would be a tale worth telling down at my local should I land that one.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    I believe someone (ahem) tipped Biden at 200/1.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/21/time-to-back-biden-if-you-can/

    He's said that he regrets not running and is perfectly placed to do a Humphrey. Obviously, Humphrey lost but 1968 was a strange election in many ways, and healthcare is not Vietnam, Trump is not Nixon, and some dodgy e-mails are not an assassin's bullet.
    Good shout David, although if it's not to be Hillary (or Saunders), then it could be anyone .... all of whom are at three figure odds.
    For fun, I've just done a spot of bottom fishing, picking up 52p's worth of Elizabeth Warren with Betfair at the modest price of 451/1, net of their commission. It would be a tale worth telling down at my local should I land that one.
    But Biden is a long way out in the lead for First Reserve. His comment that he wished he'd run is a pretty clear 'I'm available', and he's the natural candidate to rally round if Hillary did fall under some kind of political bus.

    If it's not him, then the field really does open up: there's no other administration candidate and you could see Saunders fighting far harder against an attempt by Hillary's delegates to install some other Johnny-come-lately. The field would be wide open and any number of current or former senators and governors might throw their hats in the ring but it'd be awfully late to enter the game (which would again favour Sanders, who already has a campaign structure in place), if no-one is to more-or-less inherit Hillary's establishment machine.

    In fact, if you really think Biden would be stopped, you might do worse than place a speculative punt on Bloomberg for the presidency, as I can't see anyone other than Hillary or Biden stopping Sanders - and a Sanders v Trump/Cruz contest might just encourage him to run as an independent.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.

    Didn't do Ken Clarke any harm.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    Too much smugness and hate going on amongst Docs on my fb. They're all lovely people, but absolutely dreadful at politics. I'm still not convinced they'll come out of this with a win.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    Dr Sox, I'd have a bit more time for your views on this if you had not proved so repeatedly clueless over Burnham and Stafford.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    I believe someone (ahem) tipped Biden at 200/1.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/21/time-to-back-biden-if-you-can/

    He's said that he regrets not running and is perfectly placed to do a Humphrey. Obviously, Humphrey lost but 1968 was a strange election in many ways, and healthcare is not Vietnam, Trump is not Nixon, and some dodgy e-mails are not an assassin's bullet.
    Good shout David, although if it's not to be Hillary (or Saunders), then it could be anyone .... all of whom are at three figure odds.
    For fun, I've just done a spot of bottom fishing, picking up 52p's worth of Elizabeth Warren with Betfair at the modest price of 451/1, net of their commission. It would be a tale worth telling down at my local should I land that one.
    Good luck with that bet! I still can't help feeling, as was discussed last night, that if it's clearly looking like Trump v Sanders after the early primaries, *someone* will throw their hat into the ring. It could be a moderate from one side or the other hoping for a brokered convention, or a third party candidate.

    Biden and Warren are both good shouts for the Dems, and Bloomberg is the most likely independent as he's got huge money behind him.

    Who might come for the Republicans though, maybe Rubio or Christie trying to retread? I can't think of any really high-profile centrist Republicans not in the race - Romney again?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,727

    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.

    I think there may be a difference in public sympathy between Nurses - most of whom are on well below average earnings - and doctors, many of whom are on double average earnings and more......

    Hunt needs to make this about 'The public's 24/7 NHS....'
  • Options
    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited January 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    BTW - Hillary is currently around 1/5 with Betfair to win the Democratic nomination and around 4/5 with them to make it to the White House.

    Let's say the email scandal gets worse. Let's say Saunders then wins Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Now, Saunders is clearly not going to be the Democratic nominee. They're not that stupid.

    Who steps up?
    I believe someone (ahem) tipped Biden at 200/1.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/21/time-to-back-biden-if-you-can/

    He's said that he regrets not running and is perfectly placed to do a Humphrey. Obviously, Humphrey lost but 1968 was a strange election in many ways, and healthcare is not Vietnam, Trump is not Nixon, and some dodgy e-mails are not an assassin's bullet.
    Good shout David, although if it's not to be Hillary (or Saunders), then it could be anyone .... all of whom are at three figure odds.
    For fun, I've just done a spot of bottom fishing, picking up 52p's worth of Elizabeth Warren with Betfair at the modest price of 451/1, net of their commission. It would be a tale worth telling down at my local should I land that one.
    But Biden is a long way out in the lead for First Reserve. His comment that he wished he'd run is a pretty clear 'I'm available', and he's the natural candidate to rally round if Hillary did fall under some kind of political bus.

    If it's not him, then the field really does open up: there's no other administration candidate and you could see Saunders fighting far harder against an attempt by Hillary's delegates to install some other Johnny-come-lately. The field would be wide open and any number of current or former senators and governors might throw their hats in the ring but it'd be awfully late to enter the game (which would again favour Sanders, who already has a campaign structure in place), if no-one is to more-or-less inherit Hillary's establishment machine.

    In fact, if you really think Biden would be stopped, you might do worse than place a speculative punt on Bloomberg for the presidency, as I can't see anyone other than Hillary or Biden stopping Sanders - and a Sanders v Trump/Cruz contest might just encourage him to run as an independent.
    David - you recently stated that you were in the jobs market - Have you ever considered working in the U.S. as a senior political strategist, and I'm not necessarily joking!

    BTW, there's £3 worth of Bloomberg available with Betfair at 610.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2016
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    Too much smugness and hate going on amongst Docs on my fb. They're all lovely people, but absolutely dreadful at politics. I'm still not convinced they'll come out of this with a win.
    All those politically naive Jemimas, Saeeds and Crispins cock-a-hoop at the prospect of getting one over Hunt, whilsts the Trots in charge tug their strings.

    Those support numbers are just as likely to be reversed as soon as the dispute is blamed for Aunt Meggy's death, and thousands are affected by repeated cancellation of their bunion operations.

    Hopefully one of the outcomes will see a curtailment of the racket of training at the NHS's expense and then hotfooting it overseas for more loot elsewhere. The Taxpayer expects recompense if they go early.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.

    I think there may be a difference in public sympathy between Nurses - most of whom are on well below average earnings - and doctors, many of whom are on double average earnings and more......

    Hunt needs to make this about 'The public's 24/7 NHS....'
    Very hard to run a 24/7 NHS without the medical staff group who do the most anti-social hours. Pissing them off is not going to help.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
  • Options

    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.

    It's simple. Put a clause in the doctors' contracts allowing them to charge up to £100 per consultation, and they get their money and the Tories get rid of the socialist NHS.

    What have I missed?

  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2016
    Perhaps the government should be recruiting those Syrian and Iraqi doctors fleeing the Middle East? They'd be more than happy to work under the existing terms and conditions.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Getting the priorities right there then.

    Does the government seriously not have enough evidence yet to make Cage a prosribed organisation, or are they taking the more pragmatic view that we should let them sign up the nutters to go to Syria, then ensure that - by whatever means - they don't come back?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,318

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    I have to say I am slightly irritated and becoming moreso every time that that 11% figure is trotted out. As you say, the net result is that Junior Doctors lose out as their unsocial hours payments are cut.

    The govt says that no one loses out or that overall some people lose out and others gain. But the crux is the unsocial hours banding cut.

    I would be far happier (and then the public could make up their minds) if the Govt said any of: junior doctors work too much and we are going to make sure they work fewer hours; we are trying to cut the NHS bill (although apparently there is no cost saving); we are going to restructure the NHS so that eg. a Saturday night will look and feel - and be paid for - just like any other day, and this means a cut to Saturday night pay.

    Hunt seems to have done none of this.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Getting the priorities right there then.

    Does the government seriously not have enough evidence yet to make Cage a prosribed organisation, or are they taking the more pragmatic view that we should let them sign up the nutters to go to Syria, then ensure that - by whatever means - they don't come back?
    I take it that "by whatever means" indicates that you wish us to abandon the rule of law and descend to the level of terrorists ourselves?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,318
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    It's a little bit weird because I can't help wondering how many of that 66% will have had unilateral changes to their contracts to their detriment imposed on them over the last 7 or 8 years. Even in the public sector, such as with colleges, such changes have been common place.

    I suspect that most people have, as usual, not paid much attention to the detail of this and assume that doctors, committed professionals as they are, would not be striking unless something truly outrageous was going on.

    of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Piffle. The LDs were their own worst enemy in HMG and got thumped in the ballots for it.



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    edited January 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:



    The government need to get past the "junior" bit and emphasise the actual figures these people are being paid. Pretty much all of them are above the average wage and many of them are already receiving twice the average wage. So they should be of course because they are highly trained and able senior doctors, they are just not consultants. The government need to spell out what an 11% increase in basic is worth to them. I suspect any that do pay attention will be shocked.

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Well said as always Ms Cyclefree.

    The doctors have allowed their arguments to be made in public by people who come across as middle-class Len McCluskeys who clearly have an issue with the result of the general election.

    They will quickly lose public sympathy once the strike starts to affect people, really need some more articulate doctors with media experience in front of the cameras.
    "Jeremy Hunt is a c..." doesn't quite cut it, and is drowning out what might be a good argument.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That wins the nonsensical leap from one subject to another post of the year so far.
    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    watford30 said:

    Perhaps the government should be recruiting those Syrian and Iraqi doctors fleeing the Middle East? They'd be more than happy to work under the existing terms and conditions.

    I am sure that you will be reassured to know that I have recently helped recruit some of each. Syria used to have very good medical training, recent Iraqi graduates less so.

    They do need to pass the Professional Linguistics and Aptitude Board exams (PLAB) before they can practice.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Getting the priorities right there then.

    Does the government seriously not have enough evidence yet to make Cage a prosribed organisation, or are they taking the more pragmatic view that we should let them sign up the nutters to go to Syria, then ensure that - by whatever means - they don't come back?
    I take it that "by whatever means" indicates that you wish us to abandon the rule of law and descend to the level of terrorists ourselves?
    Cage are encouraging students and others not to comply with the Prevent strategy. Now - depending on the precise details - encouraging people not to comply with the law can itself be an offence. So that should be looked into hard - and is not abandoning the rule of law. The background and activities of people within Cage suggests activity somewhat more sinister than simply saying "yah boo". And universities have codes of conduct and mission statements, as does the NUS and others. Do these not mean anything? There are plenty of ways in which it could lawfully be made harder for Cage to spread their evil amongst the impressionable young. The universities don't work with the EDL and the BNP. Why are they working with Cage?

    Let's call them out on their hypocrisy - as this person from the NUS has done:-

    "I have to be able to look every single students’ union officer in the eye and say that this organisation respects the decisions that we take together, as students’ unions. I cannot do that if I know we would be working with an organisation whose own website has words which suggest the 9/11 terrorist attacks were a Jewish conspiracy. I cannot do that if we would be working with an organisation whose own leader would not denounce female genital mutilation or the stoning to death of women when questioned about it. I cannot do that if we would be working with an organisation whose staff have in the past appeared at rallies organised by Hizb-ut-Tahrir or alongside them on panels – an organisation that you, students’ unions, voted to put on NUS’ No Platform list."
  • Options
    There are wide range of issues over which a credible opposition would be taking the government to task. Sadly, we do not have one.

    The main problem for Labour is not that the party is at war with itself, it is that its leadership is comprised of people who the electorate would never trust to govern under any circumstances.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Getting the priorities right there then.

    Does the government seriously not have enough evidence yet to make Cage a prosribed organisation, or are they taking the more pragmatic view that we should let them sign up the nutters to go to Syria, then ensure that - by whatever means - they don't come back?
    I take it that "by whatever means" indicates that you wish us to abandon the rule of law and descend to the level of terrorists ourselves?
    Not at all, but anyone fighting for ISIL in Iraq or Syria is fair game to be on the receiving end of a Brimstone.

    Or do you think we should have arrested Jihadi John instead?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    It's not the Tory party carrying out the inquiry but Clifford Chance and what they say about trying to but not guaranteeing anonymity is standard in any similar investigation.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    The handling of this strike is an example the difference between a Coalition government and an exclusively Conservative one.

    Labour have deserted the field of battle and are being shot by their commisars. History and the electorate will be much more positive about the Lib Dems and their role in Coalition as time goes by, and the Conservative government expands its nastiness.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044
    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    Morning Mike. What's your avatar say?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    The coalition was undoubtedly a brake on the Tories. Now with Labour failing to provide a proper opposition, there's only the Lords and the Tories themselves to provide any check on them. Even from the Governments point of view it would be better if they did have more opposition.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
    Fair point. Those who were offered a pay cut with no compensating pay rise at all may feel that whether economic with the actualite or not doctors are being offered a better deal than they were.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
    Fair point. Those who were offered a pay cut with no compensating pay rise at all may feel that whether economic with the actualite or not doctors are being offered a better deal than they were.
    A 30% cut followed by an 11% rise is not a compensating pay rise. I thought you could do sums!

    Time to sign off though. An interesting day ahead!
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    There are some good points being made on here by the Legal fraternity but I'm afraid, for the British public, there's only one winner between Lawyers and Doctors. The latter can get away with looking after their pay packets as a priority.

    Doctors ... hard working, life savers. Lawyers ... ambulance chasers.

    But even so, it might be better for the Medical professions not to push this too far. They will win the argument but may begin the erosion of their status.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,727
    The Shadow Cabinet anti-Trident Purge reshuffle may all have been for nought......

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/11/jeremy-corbyn-facing-defe_n_8957346.html

    Jeremy Corbyn Facing Defeat From Unions Over Plans To Dump Trident Nuclear Policy
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Good morning, everyone.

    To be fair to Labour, yesterday the news was swamped by Bowie's death. Even if Labour were led by a man who isn't an idiot, they would've struggled to get heard.

    The general point stands, of course.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    The handling of this strike is an example the difference between a Coalition government and an exclusively Conservative one.

    Labour have deserted the field of battle and are being shot by their commisars. History and the electorate will be much more positive about the Lib Dems and their role in Coalition as time goes by, and the Conservative government expands its nastiness.
    You lost me with that last phrase. I am not a Tory supporter. But the Tory government is enacting its policies which were voted for by the country. You may not like the policies as far as they affect the NHS and I have some sympathy for doctors and the position you describe. I find it hard to understand what the government's case is.

    But it does not mean that the government is "nasty". It's the automatic use of "nasty" and "Tory" which puts people off because it suggests sloganising - and sloganising of a particularly adolescent kind - rather than thought. Just because people disagree with you does not make them "nasty".

    The Labour government abolished the personal allowance for a whole class of people. It taxed their pension sneakily. It did lots of things which resulted in people losing money they previously had. It does not mean that those enacting those policies as a result of a democratic election are "nasty".
  • Options



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    The handling of this strike is an example the difference between a Coalition government and an exclusively Conservative one.

    Labour have deserted the field of battle and are being shot by their commisars. History and the electorate will be much more positive about the Lib Dems and their role in Coalition as time goes by, and the Conservative government expands its nastiness.

    It's incompetence more than anything else. With 37% of the vote the Tories (probably correctly) see themselves as invulnerable and so have developed a tin ear. If it carries on, what it probably means is that when a credible opposition does emerge the Tories will take a very severe pounding. That, though, is a long way in the future. In the meantime, we all have to live with the consequences of what is effectively a government led by ministers who are operating without any brake on their power and eyes only on sorting out their internal issues.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    It's not the Tory party carrying out the inquiry but Clifford Chance and what they say about trying to but not guaranteeing anonymity is standard in any similar investigation.
    Is that to cover things like an allegation of something that happened when there were a small number of people present, so to put the allegation to the accused would require the accuser to be identified?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
    Fair point. Those who were offered a pay cut with no compensating pay rise at all may feel that whether economic with the actualite or not doctors are being offered a better deal than they were.
    A 30% cut followed by an 11% rise is not a compensating pay rise. I thought you could do sums!

    Time to sign off though. An interesting day ahead!
    I'm well aware of that. The public may not be. And doesn't it depend on the hours worked? IT staff were offered cuts. There was no pay rise offered at all. Doctors are being offered something. That's the difference.
  • Options
    Maybe the doctors are so well supported in the poll because they're not linked to Labour? Maybe if Labour were associated with this then support would drop?
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'd argue it's a mess of both, plus another dimension. Corbyn's crew aren't interested in government.

    So, we got unelectable meets infighting meets uninterested.

    It's a poisonous soup of discontent and appalling PR.

    There are wide range of issues over which a credible opposition would be taking the government to task. Sadly, we do not have one.

    The main problem for Labour is not that the party is at war with itself, it is that its leadership is comprised of people who the electorate would never trust to govern under any circumstances.

  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    CD13 said:

    There are some good points being made on here by the Legal fraternity but I'm afraid, for the British public, there's only one winner between Lawyers and Doctors. The latter can get away with looking after their pay packets as a priority.

    Doctors ... hard working, life savers. Lawyers ... ambulance chasers.

    But even so, it might be better for the Medical professions not to push this too far. They will win the argument but may begin the erosion of their status.

    Wait until you're wrongfully arrested - or your child is - and you need a lawyer to help you and can't find one because the legal aid cuts have made it utterly uneconomic to do the work.

    Yesterday a trial started of various people accused of insider dealing in 2008/9 who were arrested in 2010. Yes - 6 years later the trial starts. The trial was halted at one point because the defendants could not get lawyers at all. Tell me how a fair trial can happen some 8 years after the events in question and how people are supposed to fund themselves and their legal defence for 6 years without adequate legal aid and without a job.

    Screwing over lawyers may seem like a cost free exercise but just as in the doctors' case the price is borne by others. The lack of justice may not kill you - and, let's face it, the lack of doctors won't always kill you either - but it has a price nonetheless.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Early copy of Corbyn's political creed has been discovered in a ruined house:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-35280290
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,395
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Getting the priorities right there then.

    Does the government seriously not have enough evidence yet to make Cage a prosribed organisation, or are they taking the more pragmatic view that we should let them sign up the nutters to go to Syria, then ensure that - by whatever means - they don't come back?
    I take it that "by whatever means" indicates that you wish us to abandon the rule of law and descend to the level of terrorists ourselves?
    Cage are encouraging students and others not to comply with the Prevent strategy. Now - depending on the precise details - encouraging people not to comply with the law can itself be an offence. So that should be looked into hard - and is not abandoning the rule of law. The background and activities of people within Cage suggests activity somewhat more sinister than simply saying "yah boo". And universities have codes of conduct and mission statements, as does the NUS and others. Do these not mean anything? There are plenty of ways in which it could lawfully be made harder for Cage to spread their evil amongst the impressionable young. The universities don't work with the EDL and the BNP. Why are they working with Cage?

    Let's call them out on their hypocrisy - as this person from the NUS has done:-

    "I have to be able to look every single students’ union officer in the eye and say that this organisation respects the decisions that we take together, as students’ unions. I cannot do that if I know we would be working with an organisation whose own website has words which suggest the 9/11 terrorist attacks were a Jewish conspiracy. I cannot do that if we would be working with an organisation whose own leader would not denounce female genital mutilation or the stoning to death of women when questioned about it. I cannot do that if we would be working with an organisation whose staff have in the past appeared at rallies organised by Hizb-ut-Tahrir or alongside them on panels – an organisation that you, students’ unions, voted to put on NUS’ No Platform list."
    Is there anyone who isn't on the NUS' No Platform List?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    It's not the Tory party carrying out the inquiry but Clifford Chance and what they say about trying to but not guaranteeing anonymity is standard in any similar investigation.
    Is that to cover things like an allegation of something that happened when there were a small number of people present, so to put the allegation to the accused would require the accuser to be identified?
    Sometimes an effective investigation means that you cannot guarantee anonymity. There's a balance to be struck. If the allegations aren't put then you can't investigate properly.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905

    Maybe the doctors are so well supported in the poll because they're not linked to Labour? Maybe if Labour were associated with this then support would drop?

    Their support will be based on the fact that they're a caring profession, that they don't strike and usually stay away from overt politics. Most people will be no more than peripherally aware of what is going on until today.

    On the news today they'll see the new face of the BMA for the first time, which will change a lot of minds.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    It's not the Tory party carrying out the inquiry but Clifford Chance and what they say about trying to but not guaranteeing anonymity is standard in any similar investigation.
    Is that to cover things like an allegation of something that happened when there were a small number of people present, so to put the allegation to the accused would require the accuser to be identified?
    Sometimes an effective investigation means that you cannot guarantee anonymity. There's a balance to be struck. If the allegations aren't put then you can't investigate properly.
    Makes sense. Thanks for reply :+1:
  • Options

    Maybe the doctors are so well supported in the poll because they're not linked to Labour? Maybe if Labour were associated with this then support would drop?

    Central Office should do a poll of the politics of NHS workers, especially in London. Very few blues, I would suggest.

  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    Morning Mike. What's your avatar say?
    It's time to toss the dice! ( see The Wheel of Time by R Jordan Vol 5)
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Ms Cyclefree,

    I wasn't passing judgement on your profession, merely pointing out how you are viewed by the Great British Public and comparing it with the Medical Profession.

    There are greedy doctors and there are hard working lawyers with a vocation. But life's a bitch sometimes.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,318
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
    Fair point. Those who were offered a pay cut with no compensating pay rise at all may feel that whether economic with the actualite or not doctors are being offered a better deal than they were.
    They may. But it is the government's action that I dislike.

    And I am not alone; you only have to hear junior ministers on DP, WatO, etc to see the squirming.

    And apart from anything else it is not needed. Tell it like it is, if that's the decision you have made, and let it be judged.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Police PR is another awkward one based on my experience. You're not identified with good news, you're a necessary evil and occasionally the nice guys. They bring bad news, arrest you or haven't done enough.

    Hard not to win default brownie points as a paramedic or nurse or firefighter.
    Cyclefree said:

    CD13 said:

    There are some good points being made on here by the Legal fraternity but I'm afraid, for the British public, there's only one winner between Lawyers and Doctors. The latter can get away with looking after their pay packets as a priority.

    Doctors ... hard working, life savers. Lawyers ... ambulance chasers.

    But even so, it might be better for the Medical professions not to push this too far. They will win the argument but may begin the erosion of their status.

    Wait until you're wrongfully arrested - or your child is - and you need a lawyer to help you and can't find one because the legal aid cuts have made it utterly uneconomic to do the work.

    Yesterday a trial started of various people accused of insider dealing in 2008/9 who were arrested in 2010. Yes - 6 years later the trial starts. The trial was halted at one point because the defendants could not get lawyers at all. Tell me how a fair trial can happen some 8 years after the events in question and how people are supposed to fund themselves and their legal defence for 6 years without adequate legal aid and without a job.

    Screwing over lawyers may seem like a cost free exercise but just as in the doctors' case the price is borne by others. The lack of justice may not kill you - and, let's face it, the lack of doctors won't always kill you either - but it has a price nonetheless.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    The handling of this strike is an example the difference between a Coalition government and an exclusively Conservative one.

    Labour have deserted the field of battle and are being shot by their commisars. History and the electorate will be much more positive about the Lib Dems and their role in Coalition as time goes by, and the Conservative government expands its nastiness.
    It's fair to say I'm a critic of this govt but they're not nasty in the slightest. They dither, obfuscate and manipulate situations but Cameron isn't nasty.

    I know lots of doctors and respect their work and dedication but none of them are skint, nor should they be. For highly paid professionals to resort to trade union rhetoric undermines their cause.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    The Government has made the mistake of picking on a professional group that is intelligent, well connected and resourceful with lots of friends in the media. They should have stuck to easier targets who find it much harder to fight back such as benefit claimants.

    I think there may be a difference in public sympathy between Nurses - most of whom are on well below average earnings - and doctors, many of whom are on double average earnings and more......

    Hunt needs to make this about 'The public's 24/7 NHS....'
    Nurses pay is around early to mid £20 000s, midwives more, so not far off the average and junior doctors pay is not that much different especially when training. It is GP partners and consultants who warn the most. I do think bursaries should 've subsided for both in terms of their studies to stop a shortage, that is more an issue than pay
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And surely everyone has the right to face their accuser? Otherwise it's a free for all.
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning All.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35288335

    Nine Tory activists whose claims are at the heart of the party's bullying scandal say they won't give evidence to the inquiry set up to investigate it.

    Oh my! Even the Tories, don't trust the Tories to conduct an impartial enquiry. So don't tell me that one can trust the Tories to conduct an impartial referendum on the EU.

    It's not the Tory party carrying out the inquiry but Clifford Chance and what they say about trying to but not guaranteeing anonymity is standard in any similar investigation.
    Is that to cover things like an allegation of something that happened when there were a small number of people present, so to put the allegation to the accused would require the accuser to be identified?
    Sometimes an effective investigation means that you cannot guarantee anonymity. There's a balance to be struck. If the allegations aren't put then you can't investigate properly.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    There aren't more Lib Dem MPs because they were dreadful in government.
    While that may be true, that's not why they are in the state they are in today. The LibDems have been hammered for two reasons:

    1. The Conservative Party under David Cameron has moved to the centre, grabbing a lot of LibDem votes. He's been perfectly happy to lose his own right wing to UKIP, because he sees a better election winning coalition in the centre. And so far, he's been proved right.

    2. Once the LibDems went into coalition with the Conservatives, they lost an awful lot of their tactical Labour votes. It will take a long-time before Labour supporters - who saw the LibDems as lapdogs on the Left - forgive, if they ever do.

    The best opportunity for the LibDems (or another centrist party) will come if the Conservative Party under whoever follows Cameron decides it wants to compete for the UKIP vote. If Corbyn is still leader of the Labour Party then, it will mean there is a big space in the centre that is up for grabs.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    Possibly. I think all governments do in the end, if given time. I don't think the excesses are that much more now, though the competence is being strained.

    The Shadow Cabinet anti-Trident Purge reshuffle may all have been for nought......

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/11/jeremy-corbyn-facing-defe_n_8957346.html

    Jeremy Corbyn Facing Defeat From Unions Over Plans To Dump Trident Nuclear Policy

    Better for the party he be disabused from making the attempt sooner rather than later.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    The bit about security costs interests me, who were the police protecting? I'm no fan of Griffin, though I must admit like the vast majority of people I know little about him, but I don't see how he's a security risk, as far as I know he's not a criminal.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    PClipp said:

    It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

    Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

    How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

    There aren't more Lib Dem MPs because they were dreadful in government.
    While that may be true, that's not why they are in the state they are in today. The LibDems have been hammered for two reasons:

    1. The Conservative Party under David Cameron has moved to the centre, grabbing a lot of LibDem votes. He's been perfectly happy to lose his own right wing to UKIP, because he sees a better election winning coalition in the centre. And so far, he's been proved right.

    2. Once the LibDems went into coalition with the Conservatives, they lost an awful lot of their tactical Labour votes. It will take a long-time before Labour supporters - who saw the LibDems as lapdogs on the Left - forgive, if they ever do.

    The best opportunity for the LibDems (or another centrist party) will come if the Conservative Party under whoever follows Cameron decides it wants to compete for the UKIP vote. If Corbyn is still leader of the Labour Party then, it will mean there is a big space in the centre that is up for grabs.
    3. The LibDems have lost the NOTA vote.

    Difficult to see that one coming back - not least because there are now more places for it to go to.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    Nick Griffin spoke at Cambridge while I was there (and I interviewed him for a magazine).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    edited January 2016

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    Good on Nottingham for that policy. Universities are where controversial debated are supposed to be held! If they want a 'No Platform' policy then it needs to include Moazzem Begg as well as Nick Griffin.

    The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    The BMA sounds like the name of an organisation that exists to look after our health. Warm and friendly. If they were called the National Union of Doctors the public might view them differently.

    Also, the government ought to keep pointing out the typical salary of a Registrar - not a very 'junior' income by any measure.

    Off topic - still lots of flooded fields between York and Doncaster. God must have a downer on his* Own Country.

    *his or its? not sure how to refer to the non-existent.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Is there a link to the figures showing what Junior Doctors will be working and being paid before and after?
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    A doctor who turns his back on someone in pain or medical attention..is no longer a doctor..
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    The 11% pay rise is not enough to make up the loss of 30% of income from the cut in banding. The pay protection is shortlived, and does not cover some groups. This is a pay cut.

    While Hunt says the other issues are resolved, the BMA JDC says otherwise.

    Junior doctors are well educated and can do sums. It is not easy to pull the wool over their eyes.
    This may all be true Dr Fox. But DavidL's point is that other professionals have had pay cuts and redundancy imposed on them over the past 7/8 years and without much or any chance of interminable negotiations. Doctors say they are a special case and the specialness of their case is based on the fact that they save lives etc. But if that is the basis of their specialness then withdrawing those skills risks undermining their own case. It is a delicate balancing act. If you claim to have a moral claim on the public purse - and I'm always wary of such claims - then you also have moral obligations. You can't both be special and untouchable and also be as grubbily focused on pay as the rest of us.

    Other groups who have also suffered pay cuts and/or who are not paid as much as doctors and who also have student debts and housing costs etc may feel not quite as sympathetic when they see the actual figures.

    I'd have thought that the better argument for doctors is not the one they are making but the fact that it is proving so hard to fill vacancies. That suggests that recruitment and/or retention is not working effectively and needs to be addressed sensibly and that, as part of that, how the NHS works every single day - including the necessary support services - should also be addressed.
    Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.
    Fair point. Those who were offered a pay cut with no compensating pay rise at all may feel that whether economic with the actualite or not doctors are being offered a better deal than they were.
    They may. But it is the government's action that I dislike.
    The government aren't the ones on strike.
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    The bit about security costs interests me, who were the police protecting? I'm no fan of Griffin, though I must admit like the vast majority of people I know little about him, but I don't see how he's a security risk, as far as I know he's not a criminal.

    He does have a criminal record.

    I believe for inciting racial hatred.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    kle4 said:



    The Lib Dems are in their current crisis precisely because no-one - including themselves - knows what they are for, in either sense.

    Whatevs. What they did, was to prevent the worst excesses of the Tories. Something sorely lacking now.

    This Government will undo itself.
    Possibly. I think all governments do in the end, if given time. I don't think the excesses are that much more now, though the competence is being strained.

    The Shadow Cabinet anti-Trident Purge reshuffle may all have been for nought......

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/11/jeremy-corbyn-facing-defe_n_8957346.html

    Jeremy Corbyn Facing Defeat From Unions Over Plans To Dump Trident Nuclear Policy

    Better for the party he be disabused from making the attempt sooner rather than later.
    Perhaps that's Corbyn's grand plan .. to wait until it happens. It'll be a bloody long wait, it would matter how bad the Tories were, this nation will never elect a bunch like the Corbynites.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Private Eye

    Private Eye on 'neo-Stalinist' Seumas Milne (via @Iram_Ramzan) https://t.co/4ESbfxt7Ls
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,632
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    Good on Nottingham for that policy. Universities are where controversial debated are supposed to be held! If they want a 'No Platform' policy then it needs to include Moazzem Begg as well as Nick Griffin.

    The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.
    Very true about Griffin. I was in the QT studio audience and witnessed the beginning of the end of the BNP. Those protesting outside TV centre saying he shouldn't be on the panel got it so totally wrong. Also on the panel that night was someone who later ended up in prison...
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    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

    How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

    John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.
    Yes, you can see the priorities.
    Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

    If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

    I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

    If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.
    The bit about security costs interests me, who were the police protecting? I'm no fan of Griffin, though I must admit like the vast majority of people I know little about him, but I don't see how he's a security risk, as far as I know he's not a criminal.

    The same people what were in danger in Cologne to the point they needed water cannons to stop the PEGIDA march!
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