Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

Undefined discussion subject.

135

Comments

  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

    "... Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law ..."

    Report for Diversity Training forthwith, Mr. 63. There will you discover that everyone must be treated according to their needs. The whole thing of treating people equally, or God forbid, treating others as you would like to be treated is just disguised racism/homophobia/sexism/islamophobia/transgenderophobia of any other such nonsense.
    Sighs and shakes head.

    I'm still waiting for those so insistent on gay marriage to protest outside mosques demanding they be married. There are countless examples of laws running parallel with one another, its bloody ridiculous.

    Yeah but.......

  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''This story has completely exploded in Germany, now. Dominating everything. Possibly a gamechanger for German politics long term.''

    I wonder if Tim Montgomerie and Sayeedi Warsi still think the PM's Syria refugee policy was all wrong.

    Or Yvette Cooper. Or Tim Farron.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    To be on the safe side, perhaps they should wear burqas, especially if they are young, blonde and pretty.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
    The difference is that, unlike Corbyn, Brown's power base was very much among MPs, and he had received North Korean levels of support from the PLP in what passed for the leadership "contest"; few politicians are going to publicly eat humble pie and admit they made the wrong decision just a couple of years earlier. But with Corbyn, needless to say that for the vast majority of the PLP it would not involve eating humble pie for them to say Corbyn had to go.
    Oh, indeed. But there still remains the question of 'how'? They also need to be sure that the membership and friends won't put him or someone like him back.
    Sure, but my point is more addressed to the people asking why the PLP aren't "doing something" to remove Corbyn. The reality is they have no ability to do something unless/until they get the agreement of the membership. It's not a question of willingness or "spine".
    On that I'm in complete agreement with you.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    taffys said:

    ''This story has completely exploded in Germany, now. Dominating everything. Possibly a gamechanger for German politics long term.''

    I wonder if Tim Montgomerie and Sayeedi Warsi still think the PM's Syria refugee policy was all wrong.

    Or Yvette Cooper. Or Tim Farron.

    Does Tim Montgomerie know what day it is. If its Tuesday it must be Cameron's fault.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:
    This story has completely exploded in Germany, now. Dominating everything. Possibly a gamechanger for German politics long term.
    It looks like German feminists aren't as stupid as ours and won't let this be filed under "cultural enrichment" like they did for the countless child rapes in Rotherham.

    I really hope the women band together and sue the state.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited January 2016
    Play the Labour reshuffle game. Been going on so long the Mirror has made one

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reshuffle-david-camerons-
    cabinet-him-7120207
    Jeremy Corbyn is in the middle of the longest reshuffle in living memory - but could you do any better at picking a top political team?

    We got so bored of waiting for the Labour leader to pick his new front bench, we thought we'd give you the chance to reshuffle David Cameron 's cabinet.

    So we've come up with a little game for you.

    As each Tory minister shows up below, give them the thumbs up or the thumbs down based on how good a job you think they're doing.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''I kid you not''

    That stuff is dynamite.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    taffys said:

    ''This story has completely exploded in Germany, now. Dominating everything. Possibly a gamechanger for German politics long term.''

    I wonder if Tim Montgomerie and Sayeedi Warsi still think the PM's Syria refugee policy was all wrong.

    Or Yvette Cooper. Or Tim Farron.

    We definitely dodged a bullet there.
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    To be on the safe side, perhaps they should wear burqas, especially if they are young, blonde and pretty.
    Corbyn's women only carriages for the railways?
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2016
    Does Tim Montgomerie know what day it is.

    If I was David Cameron I would be asking 'what would TM most disagree with?' . Then I'd go with that.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,778

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    If Corbyn can match Brown, he'll have done better than most people expect.
    TGOHF said:

    SNP bloke burbling on about concrete action on Iran and Saudi - what's he suggesting ?

    He does like focusing on Foreign Affairs I've noticed. Probably a good strategy. Doesn't look too partisan, and most people have no idea what to do anywhere, so it doesn't matter if Cameron has a strategy, or if the SNP do, and if it is any good.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
    snip
    Oh, indeed. But there still remains the question of 'how'? They also need to be sure that the membership and friends won't put him or someone like him back.
    Sure, but my point is more addressed to the people asking why the PLP aren't "doing something" to remove Corbyn. The reality is they have no ability to do something unless/until they get the agreement of the membership. It's not a question of willingness or "spine".
    They can't remove him at this stage. They can make his life bloody difficult in the hope he folds I suppose. There best plan would be to slowly create a new centre of gravity around one or two figures on the back benches who look like the alternative and roll up their sleeves and rethink what the Labour party needs to be in mid 21st century. It will be a very long slog. But what few people seem to remember or give credit for is the astonishing levels of work that Brown and Blair put in to get to a position where one of them was the obvious next leader. Hours and hours bullet-proofing policies and haranguing Tory ministers late into the night. Constant debates with people like Philip Gould who understood polling and message. Press releases pouring off fax machines etc etc.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    Six months?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    I actually was joking when I said it earlier!
    MaxPB said:

    I guess this is how they plan on turning Germany into a Sharia society and keeping the women in doors...

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2016
    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    Was it not 40 years ago, that the young woman who is now Federal Chancellor was able to wander on German beaches without a care in the world, or her clothes.

    I suppose that new guidelines will be issued for women not to copy her example.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

    Rose tinted spectacles, I think.

    Stalin and Lenin, in addition to Hitler, were savages long before they were at war.

    They needed to invent wars in their own heads to justify brutalising their own people, never mind their enemies.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: Hilary Benn is still Shadow Foreign Secretary "at the moment", Labour spksman says. Will remain so for Commons statement on Saudi. #ticktock

    Simply amazing
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
  • Options
    dyingswandyingswan Posts: 189
    It is no good journalists complaining that the Labour reshuffle is taking too long. It is proceeding at a proper pace and will be published as an appendix to the Chilcot report. Malcolm Muggeridge once said that one of the pleasures of old age is giving things up. Mr Corbyn long ago gave up competence and decisiveness.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MattW said:

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

    Rose tinted spectacles, I think.

    Stalin and Lenin, in addition to Hitler, were savages long before they were at war.

    They needed to invent wars in their own heads to justify brutalising their own people, never mind their enemies.

    I'm sorry that's ridiculous, Hitler and Stalin may have been savages but the thousands of Germans and Russians weren't until they put on a uniform.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Hilary Benn is still Shadow Foreign Secretary "at the moment", Labour spksman says. Will remain so for Commons statement on Saudi. #ticktock

    Simply amazing

    Why ? Unless otherwise announced, Benn is the Shadow Foreign Secretary. What is amazing about that ? Are there any red boxes to read and papers to sign ? No, there are none.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter.

    No

    The composition of Her majesty's Loyal Opposition is a constitutional matter, of concern to all citizens
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    It doesn't bother outsiders. Quite the opposite, it is hugely entertaining.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The descriptions of what happened in Cologne and elsewhere are just grotesque. Crowds of men slowly circling terrified women, calling them "slut", "whore", "bitch" and "you wanna f*ck" etc, then moving closer, then assaulting and robbing and groping, and even raping. And this happened over many hours, involving hundreds of victims.

    We have imported medieval misogyny on an industrial scale. Bleak.

    Immigration is good

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:

    Are there any red boxes to read and papers to sign ? No, there are none.

    Yes, there is. There is a Common's statement.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The borders have been open across Europe for many decades. If you'd driven from Brussels to Rome in 1980 it is highly unlikely you would have had to have shown your passport along the way,

    The problem here is that the German government has recklessly encouraged millions of people, with radically different cultures and standards of behaviour, to come to Europe.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    @MShapland: Understand Jeremy Corbyn has sent an all member email asking for feedback from Labour Members about whether he should sack Hillary Benn

    Things have come to such a pass that I genuinely don't know whether that is satire or not.
    It's got to be satire?

    Surely?

    @Charles: I wanted to send you a private mail about something work-related I've been considering. Would you mind if I got in touch, please?
    Sure. Best address is my screenname, underscore, surname (which I think you know) at btinternet.com

    I don't speak for anyone, though - one of the benefits of primogeniture is that I have all the fun and none of the obligations :)
    Thank you. It's your wisdom I'm after. :)

    It may be a few days.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,567
    Nice to hear from you, Mark.

    Matt
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    You can't have your chaps hyping the reshuffle to journo's then complain when they want to report it.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'

    This may be wrong - it which case the people in charge of BBC news should be sacked. However from the reports of the reports I have been reading here I was under the impression that hundreds of women had been raped in one night in Cologne.
    You suggest - quite plausibly - that the worrying aspect is 1000 men turning up. But the events happened at a railway station. Isn't this where people turn up?

    One of the great scandals that happen in Japan is the groping and molestation of women on their crowded buses and railways. There were reports about this some months ago. This thing is not a muslim only affair. There is a similar scandal in India. This event in Cologne is clearly serious, disgraceful - you name it. But - as ever - shouldn't we be commenting on what actually happened, not what hysterically some people might like to have happened? I do not think our outrage would be much affected.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Hilary Benn is still Shadow Foreign Secretary "at the moment", Labour spksman says. Will remain so for Commons statement on Saudi. #ticktock

    Simply amazing

    And this from a Labour spokesman? – It’s as though they want keep this cluster of a reshuffle front and centre of the next news cycle. Milne has some very odd ideas how to run things.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Giles Dilnot
    7am tomorrow "Welcome to day three of the Labour Test, Day 1 was more rumour than substance, Day 2 Dugher hit for six, Day 3...who knows"
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Guido
    Labour Trying to Legalise Political Campaigning By Charities Via Legislative Back Door https://t.co/CMEWJ0CARs https://t.co/5Xr44MvQke
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The descriptions of what happened in Cologne and elsewhere are just grotesque. Crowds of men slowly circling terrified women, calling them "slut", "whore", "bitch" and "you wanna f*ck" etc, then moving closer, then assaulting and robbing and groping, and even raping. And this happened over many hours, involving hundreds of victims.

    We have imported medieval misogyny on an industrial scale. Bleak.

    Maybe it's time for patriotic young German men to escort the fairer sex, so that they no longer have to endure such grotesque attacks in public. Maybe these men could patrol the streets. And to show they are available for such an altruistic purpose, maybe they could all wear a garment that shows this.

    Like, maybe, a brown shirt?
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'

    This may be wrong - it which case the people in charge of BBC news should be sacked. However from the reports of the reports I have been reading here I was under the impression that hundreds of women had been raped in one night in Cologne.
    You suggest - quite plausibly - that the worrying aspect is 1000 men turning up. But the events happened at a railway station. Isn't this where people turn up?

    One of the great scandals that happen in Japan is the groping and molestation of women on their crowded buses and railways. There were reports about this some months ago. This thing is not a muslim only affair. There is a similar scandal in India. This event in Cologne is clearly serious, disgraceful - you name it. But - as ever - shouldn't we be commenting on what actually happened, not what hysterically some people might like to have happened? I do not think our outrage would be much affected.
    I'll comment on what happened, it is utterly disgraceful and I hope the perpetrators are arrested and charged regardless of who they are.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The borders have been open across Europe for many decades. If you'd driven from Brussels to Rome in 1980 it is highly unlikely you would have had to have shown your passport along the way,

    The problem here is that the German government has recklessly encouraged millions of people, with radically different cultures and standards of behaviour, to come to Europe.
    EXTERNAL BORDERS
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The borders have been open across Europe for many decades. If you'd driven from Brussels to Rome in 1980 it is highly unlikely you would have had to have shown your passport along the way,

    The problem here is that the German government has recklessly encouraged millions of people, with radically different cultures and standards of behaviour, to come to Europe.
    You have summed it all up. Is it 'millions'?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,625
    'No10 says Cameron decided to grant ministerial freedom on Brexit "a number of weeks ago" and explained it privately to some ministers'

    Just a pity for Major and Hezza that the briefing didn't extend to them. Makes them look like a right pair of muppets.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    Are outsiders permitted to laugh? (Are insiders permitted to laugh?)
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249

    MattW said:

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

    Rose tinted spectacles, I think.

    Stalin and Lenin, in addition to Hitler, were savages long before they were at war.

    They needed to invent wars in their own heads to justify brutalising their own people, never mind their enemies.

    I'm sorry that's ridiculous, Hitler and Stalin may have been savages but the thousands of Germans and Russians weren't until they put on a uniform.
    No, sorry this is not wholly correct. Anti-semitism was widespread in German society before Hitler came to power (as it was in other european and Russian states). Much of the killing and pogroms that took place in Poland, Ukraine etc were actually undertaken by local citizens for a variety of reasons including pure revenge, anti-semitism, a change to grab property, petty neighbourly hatreds and in a number of situations as a way of proving they weren't guilty of previous collaborations (e.g. when Ukraine changed hands).
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633



    Just a pity for Major and Hezza that the briefing didn't extend to them. Makes them look like a right pair of muppets.

    A double whammy :D
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Scribberlings: Has Gazza turned up yet with a bucket of chicken and a fishing rod? #LabourReshuffle
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Miss Plato, new, friendlier, more guilt-tripping politics.
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Surbiton doesnt really grasp how the system works
  • Options

    'No10 says Cameron decided to grant ministerial freedom on Brexit "a number of weeks ago" and explained it privately to some ministers'

    Just a pity for Major and Hezza that the briefing didn't extend to them. Makes them look like a right pair of muppets.

    Their support for the EU makes them look like muppets. Anything else pales into insignificance alongside that.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Makes them look like a right pair of muppets'

    The cap fits though, doesn't it? The interesting thing I suppose is not Heseltine's predictable geriatric vapourings but that Major let his mask of reasonableness slip so carelessly.
  • Options

    'No10 says Cameron decided to grant ministerial freedom on Brexit "a number of weeks ago" and explained it privately to some ministers'

    Just a pity for Major and Hezza that the briefing didn't extend to them. Makes them look like a right pair of muppets.

    Why on earth would you expect these two long-retired politicians to be briefed? They simply expressed their opinions, which of course they are perfectly entitled to do.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Buried in an FT round-up on EU matters is the following gem:

    http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2016/01/05/is-poland-becoming-the-new-hungary/

    "Elsewhere in the refugee crisis, just-updated European Commission numbers show of the 160,000 migrants who were to be relocated across the EU, the total to date is just 272. At least they’ve convinced 4 to move to Lithuania."

    All that political capital spent on browbeating the eastern European countries, and for what?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Thank you.

    One of my all time favourites is "An Irish Airman foresees his death".

    "I know that I shall meet my fate.
    Somewhere in the skies above.
    Those that I fight I do not hate.
    Those that I guard I do not love."

    Yeats is a great poet. But there is so much poetry in the English language, even outside formal poems. And the great advantage of learning poetry and learning to speak it is that you get attuned to the rhythm, the musicality of English. And, if you do, it makes you a better speaker, a better writer.

    Language and music go together. I wince when I hear some of the clod-hopping mangling perpetrated by some of our public speakers. It really should not be possible to mess up English, given what a wonderfully painterly, vivid and muscular language it is.

    One of my favorite poems (and poets) as well: Kiltartan Cross.

    "My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before."
    The whole thing is a joy. The last lines are wonderful.

    "I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death."

    I still have my Big Book of English poetry from primary school. There is some wonderful stuff in there.

    And of course the King James' Bible is pure poetry. Whoever decided to replace it with the telephone directory style modern version should be put in one of Dante's Seven Circles of Hell.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    SeanT said:

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'

    This may be wrong - it which case the people in charge of BBC news should be sacked. However from the reports of the reports I have been reading here I was under the impression that hundreds of women had been raped in one night in Cologne.
    You suggest - quite plausibly - that the worrying aspect is 1000 men turning up. But the events happened at a railway station. Isn't this where people turn up?

    One of the great scandals that happen in Japan is the groping and molestation of women on their crowded buses and railways. There were reports about this some months ago. This thing is not a muslim only affair. There is a similar scandal in India. This event in Cologne is clearly serious, disgraceful - you name it. But - as ever - shouldn't we be commenting on what actually happened, not what hysterically some people might like to have happened? I do not think our outrage would be much affected.
    If you fail to see a link between Islam's innate misogyny - for that is what it is - and what happened in Germany, then you are literally retarded.

    But I don't think you are retarded - I think that, for whatever reason, you just can't bear to see what is right there in front of your face, so you have gone into the most contorted state of denial.

    It's sad.
    You are sad to spout such rubbish. I can well see the the misogyny link - do I not use the word 'disgraceful'. Do I not point to similar occurrences in Japan and India?
    Islam is a religion locked into the middle ages. Thankfully our version of Christianity emerged from that centuries ago. Religious diktat needs to be replaced by democracy everywhere.

    What I am commenting about is forming opinions based on facts not promulgating hysteria a la Mike Ks usual trawl of the internet. You like to pretend you were a journalist once - don't facts matter?
    If the BBCs interpretation on this significant event is wrong and or misleading then its news bosses should be sacked.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Thank you.

    One of my all time favourites is "An Irish Airman foresees his death".

    "I know that I shall meet my fate.
    Somewhere in the skies above.
    Those that I fight I do not hate.
    Those that I guard I do not love."

    Yeats is a great poet. But there is so much poetry in the English language, even outside formal poems. And the great advantage of learning poetry and learning to speak it is that you get attuned to the rhythm, the musicality of English. And, if you do, it makes you a better speaker, a better writer.

    Language and music go together. I wince when I hear some of the clod-hopping mangling perpetrated by some of our public speakers. It really should not be possible to mess up English, given what a wonderfully painterly, vivid and muscular language it is.

    One of my favorite poems (and poets) as well: Kiltartan Cross.

    "My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before."
    The whole thing is a joy. The last lines are wonderful.

    "I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death."

    I still have my Big Book of English poetry from primary school. There is some wonderful stuff in there.

    And of course the King James' Bible is pure poetry. Whoever decided to replace it with the telephone directory style modern version should be put in one of Dante's Seven Circles of Hell.
    The Book of Common Prayer also.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    It's OK though, German women have now been issued a new "code of conduct", to prevent further mass sexual assaults. From now on German women must travel in groups, not get separated, keep strangers at a distance, and not be too cheerful during carnivals, as it confuses others, sexually.

    I kid you not

    https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-krisenstab-will-verhaltensregeln-fuer-karneval-aufstellen-aid-1.5669639&edit-text=

    How long can the EU's deranged open borders policy survive the rate of arrivals from places whose moral standards are, shall we say, slightly different from our own?
    The borders have been open across Europe for many decades. If you'd driven from Brussels to Rome in 1980 it is highly unlikely you would have had to have shown your passport along the way,

    The problem here is that the German government has recklessly encouraged millions of people, with radically different cultures and standards of behaviour, to come to Europe.
    You have summed it all up. Is it 'millions'?
    Tens if not hundreds of millions have been encouraged by Merkel's stupidity. Millions came in 2015 alone. Well over a million to Germany.
  • Options
    The labour reshuffle is like a game of musical chairs where somebody has forgotten to bring any music.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Corbyn anger update: he was described as "as angry as a man who lives on lentils can be" over reshuffle snags.

    It's just tragic now
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    And of course the King James' Bible is pure poetry. Whoever decided to replace it with the telephone directory style modern version should be put in one of Dante's Seven Circles of Hell.

    Even more true of the Book of Common Prayer. I find modern C of E services painful to listen to, like music sung out of tune.

    It's not as though the modern versions even work in their own terms. If they really wanted to use contemporary forms of expression, the service would go something like this:

    "The Lord be with you"

    "And with you too, mate".
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    "The ability to reshuffle a Shadow Cabinet is insignificant next to the power of the force!"
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Buried in an FT round-up on EU matters is the following gem:

    http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2016/01/05/is-poland-becoming-the-new-hungary/

    "Elsewhere in the refugee crisis, just-updated European Commission numbers show of the 160,000 migrants who were to be relocated across the EU, the total to date is just 272. At least they’ve convinced 4 to move to Lithuania."

    All that political capital spent on browbeating the eastern European countries, and for what?

    To make my position perfectly clear - none of them should be relocated. They should all remain in refugee camps in Turkey.
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    I am not worried whether it is March or June.

    More importantly is the YEAR>

    PS: I read PB - as I am interested in politics. Surprisingly enough, the Labour Party is part of the UK political scene.. I know it's hard to realise any sentient being could be interested in a bunch of losers lead by Corbyn but humoue me as I'm an old man and laughter is good for me..

  • Options
    Corbyn used to be decisive but now he's not so sure. :)
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Thank you.

    One of my all time favourites is "An Irish Airman foresees his death".

    "I know that I shall meet my fate.
    Somewhere in the skies above.
    Those that I fight I do not hate.
    Those that I guard I do not love."

    Yeats is a great poet. But there is so much poetry in the English language, even outside formal poems. And the great advantage of learning poetry and learning to speak it is that you get attuned to the rhythm, the musicality of English. And, if you do, it makes you a better speaker, a better writer.

    Language and music go together. I wince when I hear some of the clod-hopping mangling perpetrated by some of our public speakers. It really should not be possible to mess up English, given what a wonderfully painterly, vivid and muscular language it is.

    One of my favorite poems (and poets) as well: Kiltartan Cross.

    "My country is Kiltartan Cross,
    My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
    No likely end could bring them loss
    Or leave them happier than before."
    The whole thing is a joy. The last lines are wonderful.

    "I balanced all, brought all to mind,
    The years to come seemed waste of breath,
    A waste of breath the years behind
    In balance with this life, this death."

    I still have my Big Book of English poetry from primary school. There is some wonderful stuff in there.

    And of course the King James' Bible is pure poetry. Whoever decided to replace it with the telephone directory style modern version should be put in one of Dante's Seven Circles of Hell.
    The King James Bible was largely based on Tyndale's earlier (incomplete) version. It's incredible to think that one man should be responsible for so much wonderful writing.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Cyclefree said:

    And of course the King James' Bible is pure poetry. Whoever decided to replace it with the telephone directory style modern version should be put in one of Dante's Seven Circles of Hell.

    Even more true of the Book of Common Prayer. I find modern C of E services painful to listen to, like music sung out of tune.

    It's not as though the modern versions even work in their own terms. If they really wanted to use contemporary forms of expression, the service would go something like this:

    "The Lord be with you"

    "And with you too, mate".
    That's very true. The new liturgy introduced a painfully stilted form of modern speech that has become an Anglican trademark.

    I am an atheist, but there is something incredibly moving about the old service for the burial of the dead, knowing that the same words have been said over graves for centuries past.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Buried in an FT round-up on EU matters is the following gem:

    http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2016/01/05/is-poland-becoming-the-new-hungary/

    "Elsewhere in the refugee crisis, just-updated European Commission numbers show of the 160,000 migrants who were to be relocated across the EU, the total to date is just 272. At least they’ve convinced 4 to move to Lithuania."

    All that political capital spent on browbeating the eastern European countries, and for what?

    To make my position perfectly clear - none of them should be relocated. They should all remain in refugee camps in Turkey.
    Nice idea. And the ones who have already reached Europe? Turkey cannot be compelled to take them back under international law.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Isabel Hardman
    Corbyn tells the House that he learned that many European leaders have v.g. grasp of British politics. "Unlike you!" shouts one Tory.

    LOL
  • Options
    They say UK productivity has been falling. I don't know if that is actually true or not, it JJ is definitely providing good solid anecdotal evidence of this. 3 days (at least) just to shuffle a few people around.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,778
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    It's funny, that's all. Other issues are pretty minor to be frank, and if he wants to outright troll the media by taking a long time, that's fine, but I also think it's fine for the people who's job it is to cover these things getting irritated or snarky about it.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'The new liturgy introduced a painfully stilted form of modern speech that has become an Anglican trademark'

    Symptomatic I think of an organisation that is deeply uncomfortable with itself.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    The labour reshuffle is like a game of musical chairs where somebody has forgotten to bring any music.

    Or chairs...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'

    This may be wrong - it which case the people in charge of BBC news should be sacked. However from the reports of the reports I have been reading here I was under the impression that hundreds of women had been raped in one night in Cologne.
    You suggest - quite plausibly - that the worrying aspect is 1000 men turning up. But the events happened at a railway station. Isn't this where people turn up?

    One of the great scandals that happen in Japan is the groping and molestation of women on their crowded buses and railways. There were reports about this some months ago. This thing is not a muslim only affair. There is a similar scandal in India. This event in Cologne is clearly serious, disgraceful - you name it. But - as ever - shouldn't we be commenting on what actually happened, not what hysterically some people might like to have happened? I do not think our outrage would be much affected.
    What you seem to be deliberately missing is that this is what is happening to us (as Europeans also exposed to mass immigration from MENA), whereas what happens in India and Japan is happening to others. Of course all horrors are equally abhorrent, regardless of victim, and multiple cultures can commit the same horrors. But the one we have to deal with is the one associated, it appears, to immigrants from MENA. And based on the facts, there is a cultural link to the misogyny inherent in Islam as currently practiced in much of the MENA region as to why this behaviour - unacceptable in our culture - seems acceptable to some of those we are letting in.

    Creating a response based on the facts has to involve facing uncomfortable facts. Whether a segment of Indian and Japanese men are equally horrible has no bearing per se on the most appropriate way to deal with the problem on our own doorstep.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,755
    runnymede said:

    'The new liturgy introduced a painfully stilted form of modern speech that has become an Anglican trademark'

    Symptomatic I think of an organisation that is deeply uncomfortable with itself.

    It's the Hugh Grant of religion
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Do I not point to similar occurrences in Japan and India?
    Islam is a religion locked into the middle ages.''

    Surely the point is the German government had the choice to put their own citizens in the front line against these people or not. It's not a problem they inherited.

    And they chose to.
  • Options

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Well my twitter feed is full of corbynites saying it is the nasty media making a story out of nothing.
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    It doesn't bother outsiders, it amuses them. Corbyn, is without doubt the most incompetent leader of any political party in living memory. He makes IDS, look like JFK.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,169
    What happened near German railway stations on New Year's Eve was probably "organised" in the self-organised way that facebook etc enables.
    Similar atrocities had earlier been happening in Sweden on a smaller scale, but these have been in large part unreported by the politically correct Swedish press.
    Mrs Merkel has called for a hard response from the authorities without regard to where the perpetrators come from or what their background is.
    http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/koeln/angela-merkel-fordert-harte-antwort-des-rechtsstaats-aid-1.5669919
    However the article ends with "little is known about the perpetrators"!
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited January 2016
    For fans of medieval history, religion & politics. A programme on The Crusades.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01b3ftw
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,778

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Because a reshuffle has been a bit messy? I'm not even one of those people and I'd be disappointed if this was what broke the spell for them.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    saddened said:

    Corbyn, is without doubt the most incompetent leader of any political party in living memory. He makes IDS, look like JFK.

    He is starting to make Tim Farron look good
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,778
    dr_spyn said:

    For fans of medieval history, religion & politics. A programme on The Crusades.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01b3ftw

    And who isn't a fan of those things, really?

    Cheers
  • Options
    geoffw said:

    What happened near German railway stations on New Year's Eve was probably "organised" in the self-organised way that facebook etc enables.
    Similar atrocities had earlier been happening in Sweden on a smaller scale, but these have been in large part unreported by the politically correct Swedish press.
    Mrs Merkel has called for a hard response from the authorities without regard to where the perpetrators come from or what their background is.
    http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/koeln/angela-merkel-fordert-harte-antwort-des-rechtsstaats-aid-1.5669919
    However the article ends with "little is known about the perpetrators"!

    Well lets hope with a bit of German efficiency they work out who was responsible. I presume if a lot of this was posted on social media that would be a good start + mobile phone data.
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    kle4 said:

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Because a reshuffle has been a bit messy? I'm not even one of those people and I'd be disappointed if this was what broke the spell for them.
    To be honest, its been a collection of feck ups. At every key moment where he's had to display some kind of leadership he has utterly failed.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'


    ...
    You are sad to spout such rubbish. I can well see the the misogyny link - do I not use the word 'disgraceful'. Do I not point to similar occurrences in Japan and India?
    Islam is a religion locked into the middle ages. Thankfully our version of Christianity emerged from that centuries ago. Religious diktat needs to be replaced by democracy everywhere.

    What I am commenting about is forming opinions based on facts not promulgating hysteria a la Mike Ks usual trawl of the internet. You like to pretend you were a journalist once - don't facts matter?
    If the BBCs interpretation on this significant event is wrong and or misleading then its news bosses should be sacked.
    Well, you could try reading?

    Here is the BBC report. It is not misleading. Having now seen quite a few authoritative German reports - from Spiegel and FAZ etc - the BBC account seems fairly low key and certainly not inflammatory. It just states many of the facts.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046
    You could try reading - my comment was based on that report which says 1 woman was raped and many groped out of a group of 80 at the railway station. This is terrible shocking and a disgrace. It shows a low regard for women by the perpetrators who are north african arab muslim, take your pick. It seems to me such low regard is also prevalent in India (lovely tourist destination) and Japan (nice civilised country).
    From the comments on here I formed an opinion that scores of women, 100's had been raped by marauding bands of 1000's of muslim men probably from Syria. If this last point is true than the BBC news chiefs should be sacked.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    saddened said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @rosschawkins: .@RobDotHutton asks Corbyn Spox re reshuffle: do you have any guidance as to in what month you'll move towards a statement?

    Why does it bother outsiders ? It is a Labour party matter. When the time comes announcement(s) will be made. If it is in March, it will be in March. It certainly is not anyone else.
    It doesn't bother outsiders, it amuses them. Corbyn, is without doubt the most incompetent leader of any political party in living memory. He makes IDS, look like JFK.
    I agree, it does not bother outsiders, as in emotionally upset them. But that does not mean that outsiders have no skin in the game. Rather, impressions of the LOTO's competence to lead and make decisions under pressure are very much factors on which it is appropriate for all voters to form an opinion.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Well my twitter feed is full of corbynites saying it is the nasty media making a story out of nothing.
    It will be a couple of million Labour voters that count
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,755

    geoffw said:

    What happened near German railway stations on New Year's Eve was probably "organised" in the self-organised way that facebook etc enables.
    Similar atrocities had earlier been happening in Sweden on a smaller scale, but these have been in large part unreported by the politically correct Swedish press.
    Mrs Merkel has called for a hard response from the authorities without regard to where the perpetrators come from or what their background is.
    http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/koeln/angela-merkel-fordert-harte-antwort-des-rechtsstaats-aid-1.5669919
    However the article ends with "little is known about the perpetrators"!

    Well lets hope with a bit of German efficiency they work out who was responsible. I presume if a lot of this was posted on social media that would be a good start + mobile phone data.
    Not to worry, they get to do it all again as Karneval kicks off in the Rhineland. What with three days of crowds getting pissed in Cologne and a woman;s day 4th February it should be a total riot this year.

    http://www.cologne-tourism.com/whats-on/carnival/dates.html
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    MTimT said:

    What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

    If the BBC are saying "it appears to have been organized", it is absolutely nailed on it was.

    I have been to Cologne a number of times with a lady friend and never had anything but good experiences.

    Edit: Actually no, one bar owner took exception to my bad German and decided to make me wait for a table.

    Yes - but if the BBC report is to be believed (something to speculate about) then 80 women were molested at the railway station with 'at least one' raped and 'many' groped. 'most crimes reported were robberies'

    This may be wrong - it which case the people in charge of BBC news should be sacked. However from the reports of the reports I have been reading here I was under the impression that hundreds of women had been raped in one night in Cologne.
    You suggest - quite plausibly - that the worrying aspect is 1000 men turning up. But the events happened at a railway station. Isn't this where people turn up?

    One of the great scandals that happen in Japan is the groping and molestation of women on their crowded buses and railways. There were reports about this some months ago. This thing is not a muslim only affair. There is a similar scandal in India. This event in Cologne is clearly serious, disgraceful - you name it. But - as ever - shouldn't we be commenting on what actually happened, not what hysterically some people might like to have happened? I do not think our outrage would be much affected.
    What you seem to be deliberately missing is that this is what is happening to us (as Europeans also exposed to mass immigration from MENA), whereas what happens in India and Japan is happening to others. Of course all horrors are equally abhorrent, regardless of victim, and multiple cultures can commit the same horrors. But the one we have to deal with is the one associated, it appears, to immigrants from MENA. And based on the facts, there is a cultural link to the misogyny inherent in Islam as currently practiced in much of the MENA region as to why this behaviour - unacceptable in our culture - seems acceptable to some of those we are letting in.

    Creating a response based on the facts has to involve facing uncomfortable facts. Whether a segment of Indian and Japanese men are equally horrible has no bearing per se on the most appropriate way to deal with the problem on our own doorstep.
    I'm not deliberately missing anything. I know where South Yorkshire is.
    To repeat ''I do not think our outrage would be much affected'' if the issues were reported on and commented on more clearly and accurately.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2016
    kle4 said:

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Because a reshuffle has been a bit messy? I'm not even one of those people and I'd be disappointed if this was what broke the spell for them.
    I'll be honest, it's lowered my opinion of him. Not necessarily because of the reshuffle (or lack thereof) itself, but because for me the events of the past couple of weeks seem to confirm what other people have been saying about the Corbyn team being more interested in settling internal scores than opposing the Tories.

    There have been so many opportunities to pressure the Tories (not least, over the floods which should've been a perfect opportunity to show how austerity is really just a series of false economies) but the Labour team have passed it up for their petty "revenge". It's one thing if some of Corbyn's ideas are questionable but at least has good intentions, but if he's not even interested in trying to represent the party and oppose the Tories properly...
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited January 2016
    Ha!

    Keeffan
    #LabourReshuffle https://t.co/QnHMZsXUNH
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2016

    kle4 said:

    Anyone who believed the hype and voted for Corbyn now prepared to admit they fucked up big style?

    Because a reshuffle has been a bit messy? I'm not even one of those people and I'd be disappointed if this was what broke the spell for them.
    To be honest, its been a collection of feck ups. At every key moment where he's had to display some kind of leadership he has utterly failed.
    Exactly – a politician can get away with an awful lot most of the time, but when the media spot light justly points in your direction, you had better be prepared to do what's expected and do it well. - Corbyn has been winging it for 30 years and it shows.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Dr. Spyn, that's the chap who wrote the biography of William Marshal I recently enjoyed.

    Thanks for the tip, I'll try and remember to watch it.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MichaelLCrick: Corbyn source says reshuffle now held up by Hilary Benn still being in Commons chamber. Then deal can be struck quickly
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    May is kicking Burnhams butt..smudged mascara soon..
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    @MichaelLCrick: Corbyn source says reshuffle now held up by Hilary Benn still being in Commons chamber. Then deal can be struck quickly

    Perhaps Benn can apply to the Speaker for sanctuary under some obscure seventeenth century parliamentary convention.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    They say UK productivity has been falling. I don't know if that is actually true or not, it JJ is definitely providing good solid anecdotal evidence of this. 3 days (at least) just to shuffle a few people around.

    An interesting take on productivity - including the comments.
    http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/economics/explaining-part-of-the-uk-labour-productivity-puzzle/

    ''the implication of this for our recorded labour productivity figures is that some portion of that growth in labour productivity over the period 2001 to 2010, and some portion of the fall in it since, is simply the result of the boom and then restraint in public sector pay.''
    ''Why is UK labour productivity falling? Simply because we measure public sector labour productivity by the amount we pay them in wages and we’re deliberately squeezing those wages currently.''
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,169
    Wider discussion of the New Years Eve events in Germany are disallowed by the German mainstream media. E.g.
    Dear readers,
    in contrast to many other articles on SPIEGEL ONLINE there is no forum. Unfortunately on this issue we receive so many inappropriate, offensive or justiciable forum posts that a scrupulous moderation according to the rules of our Netiquette is hardly possible.


This discussion has been closed.