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    DearPBDearPB Posts: 439
    John_M said:

    I can't wait for the sequel to this reshuffle....

    Labour have decided to skip the first part of "History repeats itself...". What on earth is going on with these numbskulls?
    It's not clear how this qualifies as a reshuffle - basically it's taken him two days and god knows how many man hours to fire Michael Dugher. A politician (and authentic voice apparently; I assume that means he speaks with a northern accent?) that no-one not commenting on here, had ever heard of before.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.
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    Scott_P said:

    @chrisshipitv: Shadow Cabinet source to @adamtimsmith: if @hilarybennmp is sacked, 8 Shadow Ministers will walk out in protest

    I thought the point of a reshuffle was to strengthen the party Leader’s standing within the party, instead it seems only to have exposed Jeremy’s weakness and vulnerability within in it.

    Four years to go and we appear to have a dead duck shadow government staggering from one day to the next.
    Corbyn's first reshuffle has come after less than four months in post. He has 52 months to the GE. At this rate, we should get another 12-14 reshuffles or so before then.
    Assuming this one has finished by the GE. Jezza will probably be waiting for Doris in Nantwich to give her opinion on sacking Hilary Benn.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    My WTF-O-meter is broken.
    John_M said:

    I can't wait for the sequel to this reshuffle....

    Labour have decided to skip the first part of "History repeats itself...". What on earth is going on with these numbskulls?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd have thought the mass robbery, rape and sexual assault on German women by 1000+ Muslim men in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Cologne on New Year's Eve MIGHT have been worth a mensh.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html

    It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.

    There have been quite a lot of articles in the press and online about sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere, particularly in some of the migrant camps, by migrant men.

    As you say, the reaction has been somewhat "meh", as if (a) it's only what's to be expected; (b) it only happens to women so why get too bothered about it; and (3) if a fuss were made, there would be problems with the men and, even worse, something might have to be done.

    It's an utter disgrace. Serious crimes are being committed and our more half-witted feminists are worried about having to read a possibly misogynistic poem at university or how to address a transgender person appearing on the cover of a magazine rather than real traumatic crimes committed against women and girls. This is why feminism has disappeared up its own f*nny.

    There's a huge amount of displacement activity. The German and Swedish governments have done a serious disservice to their own people.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2016
    taffys said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.

    Just a 1000 involved....
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    DearPB said:

    John_M said:

    I can't wait for the sequel to this reshuffle....

    Labour have decided to skip the first part of "History repeats itself...". What on earth is going on with these numbskulls?
    It's not clear how this qualifies as a reshuffle - basically it's taken him two days and god knows how many man hours to fire Michael Dugher. A politician (and authentic voice apparently; I assume that means he speaks with a northern accent?) that no-one not commenting on here, had ever heard of before.
    We've heard of him - he's the one with the funny accent that is a far way from northern.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    taffys said:

    ''It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.''

    That's quick for that area.

    The Red Army raped up to two million German women between 1944 and 1945, and I didn;t read about it until 2005.

    Couldn't be paying much attention then! It was well publicised at the time.
    It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia.
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    I can't wait for the sequel to this reshuffle....

    The Farce Awakens
    Collect all the shadow cabinet figurines from the Labour gift shop. – While stocks last.
    Palpatine: Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Corbyn the Wise?

    Anakin: No.

    Palpatine: I thought not. It's not a story the Labour Party would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Corbyn was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create... Shadow Cabinet reshuffles! He had such a knowledge of the Daft Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about... from dying from boredom during periods of Opposition!

    Anakin: He could actually...save people from boring themselves to death?

    Palpatine: The Daft Side of the Force is a pathway to many policies some consider to be unelectable.

    Anakin: What happened to him?

    Palpatine: He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his political nous... which, eventually of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice changed his policies while he was sleeping. Ironic. He could save others from obscurity... but not himself.

    Anakin: Is it possible to learn this power?

    Palpatine: Not from a Socialist...
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Just a 1000 involved....

    IF you drill down into the report 'one politician' claims this is the tip of the iceberg. If more come forward from other German cities, goodness.

    Plus they are worried about the next celebration time in Germany, in February.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    MaxPB said:

    Ironic that, under the pre-2011 rules, it would have been the PLP who elected the shadow cabinet.

    Ed really buggered it up for Labour didn't he!
    To be fair, that was a sensible move in principle. It was a nonsense that a party leader couldn't pick his or her own top team. The dual mandates - leader from the party / cabinet from the PLP - was a recipe for tension and would have made the present situation even worse.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd have thought the mass robbery, rape and sexual assault on German women by 1000+ Muslim men in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Cologne on New Year's Eve MIGHT have been worth a mensh.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html

    It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.

    There have been quite a lot of articles in the press and online about sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere, particularly in some of the migrant camps, by migrant men.

    As you say, the reaction has been somewhat "meh", as if (a) it's only what's to be expected; (b) it only happens to women so why get too bothered about it; and (3) if a fuss were made, there would be problems with the men and, even worse, something might have to be done.

    It's an utter disgrace. Serious crimes are being committed and our more half-witted feminists are worried about having to read a possibly misogynistic poem at university or how to address a transgender person appearing on the cover of a magazine rather than real traumatic crimes committed against women and girls. This is why feminism has disappeared up its own f*nny.

    There's a huge amount of displacement activity. The German and Swedish governments have done a serious disservice to their own people.
    The women who have been assaulted should sue the German Federal government for negligence. They let these people into the country without any real checks and do not keep them under surveillance or separate from the general population. It is an outrage.

    I've actually not been this glad for a Tory government in a long time, imagine if we had a Labour or Lab/SNP/LD government at the moment, we would be part of this quota system having to take in thousands of people who have no interest in being part of our society or living by our rules. At least there is some kind of vetting involved without method, even though I would say no to a single refugee from Syria and the surrounding nations, it is magnitudes better than what the rest of Europe have done.
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    DearPBDearPB Posts: 439
    JBriskin said:

    DearPB said:

    John_M said:

    I can't wait for the sequel to this reshuffle....

    Labour have decided to skip the first part of "History repeats itself...". What on earth is going on with these numbskulls?
    It's not clear how this qualifies as a reshuffle - basically it's taken him two days and god knows how many man hours to fire Michael Dugher. A politician (and authentic voice apparently; I assume that means he speaks with a northern accent?) that no-one not commenting on here, had ever heard of before.
    We've heard of him - he's the one with the funny accent that is a far way from northern.
    I've never heard his voice I'm afraid. And my double negative assumed everyone here knows who he is (apart from me) - but nobody else does. I have to say I've become acquainted with more obscure Labour MPs and their political tribes in the last 4 months than I ever expected to.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Emily Ashton
    Jeremy Hunt starts reply to Heidi Alexander on doctors' strikes with wishing her "every success in retaining her post in the shadow cabinet"
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    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd have thought the mass robbery, rape and sexual assault on German women by 1000+ Muslim men in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Cologne on New Year's Eve MIGHT have been worth a mensh.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html

    It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.

    There have been quite a lot of articles in the press and online about sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere, particularly in some of the migrant camps, by migrant men.

    As you say, the reaction has been somewhat "meh", as if (a) it's only what's to be expected; (b) it only happens to women so why get too bothered about it; and (3) if a fuss were made, there would be problems with the men and, even worse, something might have to be done.

    It's an utter disgrace. Serious crimes are being committed and our more half-witted feminists are worried about having to read a possibly misogynistic poem at university or how to address a transgender person appearing on the cover of a magazine rather than real traumatic crimes committed against women and girls. This is why feminism has disappeared up its own f*nny.

    There's a huge amount of displacement activity. The German and Swedish governments have done a serious disservice to their own people.
    The women who have been assaulted should sue the German Federal government for negligence. They let these people into the country without any real checks and do not keep them under surveillance or separate from the general population. It is an outrage.

    I've actually not been this glad for a Tory government in a long time, imagine if we had a Labour or Lab/SNP/LD government at the moment, we would be part of this quota system having to take in thousands of people who have no interest in being part of our society or living by our rules. At least there is some kind of vetting involved without method, even though I would say no to a single refugee from Syria and the surrounding nations, it is magnitudes better than what the rest of Europe have done.
    JJ in charge we would have all of Syria here by now. The good and the bad.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    taffys said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.

    Also second-most read story on the BBC news site. It'll be interesting to see what prominence it's given in the bulletins given the obvious public interest in the story.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd have thought the mass robbery, rape and sexual assault on German women by 1000+ Muslim men in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Cologne on New Year's Eve MIGHT have been worth a mensh.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html

    It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.

    There have been quite a lot of articles in the press and online about sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere, particularly in some of the migrant camps, by migrant men.

    As you say, the reaction has been somewhat "meh", as if (a) it's only what's to be expected; (b) it only happens to women so why get too bothered about it; and (3) if a fuss were made, there would be problems with the men and, even worse, something might have to be done.

    It's an utter disgrace. Serious crimes are being committed and our more half-witted feminists are worried about having to read a possibly misogynistic poem at university or how to address a transgender person appearing on the cover of a magazine rather than real traumatic crimes committed against women and girls. This is why feminism has disappeared up its own f*nny.

    Quite, compare this to a few of our soldiers getting over excited in battle and being potentially prosecuted retrospectively. Incidentally, as a female you're in a position to comment on feminism, 50% of the population can't.

    I was arguing on here the other day about pan-European culture, if that involves treating women like sex objects they can shove it. It's only a matter of time before vigilante groups appear.

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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Dugher live on #skynews now
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    When I was in my teens and early twenties, I kept graphs of the monthly Gallup opinion polls, as if it were an absolute and definitive measure of the real opinion of people at each monthly interval.

    Now there are zillions of different polls from different organisations, and i have come to ignore most of them because they are a load of waffle. And out-of-date. And meaningless, because there isn't a real election happening most of the time.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd have thought the mass robbery, rape and sexual assault on German women by 1000+ Muslim men in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Cologne on New Year's Eve MIGHT have been worth a mensh.

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/koeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html

    It's now headline news across Europe. 5 days after it happened. Odd.

    There have been quite a lot of articles in the press and online about sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere, particularly in some of the migrant camps, by migrant men.

    As you say, the reaction has been somewhat "meh", as if (a) it's only what's to be expected; (b) it only happens to women so why get too bothered about it; and (3) if a fuss were made, there would be problems with the men and, even worse, something might have to be done.

    It's an utter disgrace. Serious crimes are being committed and our more half-witted feminists are worried about having to read a possibly misogynistic poem at university or how to address a transgender person appearing on the cover of a magazine rather than real traumatic crimes committed against women and girls. This is why feminism has disappeared up its own f*nny.

    There's a huge amount of displacement activity. The German and Swedish governments have done a serious disservice to their own people.
    Has this piece from Canadian Broadcasting done the rounds in the UK? Not assaults on women, but on Jews in Malmo. Similar meh reaction.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/anti-semitism-in-malmö-reveals-flaws-in-swedish-immigration-system-1.3080484
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    taffys said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.

    Twitter more concerned about Chris Gayle asking a reporter out for a drink and Rey being left out the new Star Wars monopoly.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Bored of the reshuffle? You should be. It's already occupied more news cycles than any in history says @atulh https://t.co/tZYSgXdQSk
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    taffys said:

    Just a 1000 involved....

    IF you drill down into the report 'one politician' claims this is the tip of the iceberg. If more come forward from other German cities, goodness.

    Plus they are worried about the next celebration time in Germany, in February.

    I guess this is how they plan on turning Germany into a Sharia society and keeping the women in doors...

    How has our society become so infected with this SJW crap that we turn a blind eye to child rape and sexual abuse, it just seems unbelievable to me that ordinarily sensible people like Merkel can advocate these truly stupid policies and import over a million hostile, third world types who want to dismantle our society.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.
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    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    It is a funny accent lols
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.

    Twitter more concerned about Chris Gayle asking a reporter out for a drink and Rey being left out the new Star Wars monopoly.
    All the important stuff. Know womenizing cricketer tries it on with reporter, as most men do every weekend around the world, and got the same result most do.
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    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    Just a 1000 involved....

    IF you drill down into the report 'one politician' claims this is the tip of the iceberg. If more come forward from other German cities, goodness.

    Plus they are worried about the next celebration time in Germany, in February.

    I guess this is how they plan on turning Germany into a Sharia society and keeping the women in doors...

    How has our society become so infected with this SJW crap that we turn a blind eye to child rape and sexual abuse, it just seems unbelievable to me that ordinarily sensible people like Merkel can advocate these truly stupid policies and import over a million hostile, third world types who want to dismantle our society.
    If you import people from the third world, expect third world attitudes to women, democracy and religion.
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    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046?ocid=socialflow_twitter

    The BBC report on the events in Germany is here.

    Twitter more concerned about Chris Gayle asking a reporter out for a drink and Rey being left out the new Star Wars monopoly.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/board/threads/
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    MT @MaZoe: Michael Dugher tells Sky News: I tried straight-talking, honest politics and he (Corbyn) didn't like it.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    MT @MaZoe: Michael Dugher tells Sky News: I tried straight-talking, honest politics and he (Corbyn) didn't like it.

    He doesn't sound to be taking this very well.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JBriskin said:
    Not sure test match live bloggers have sufficient attention span to cover a reshuffle
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited January 2016
    I've been on the phone for an hour. Has anything happened? It hasn't, has it?
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.
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    Two wickets down when play closes. A collective mind freeze tomorrow morning. Can England save this test?
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Its been quite well known for an awful long time. The whole Eastern Front was barbaric.
    Even in 1940 there were well know examples of British prisoners being murdered. I have heard a first hand report form one witness of one British soldier - the relative of one such victim - who post D-Day shot every German prisoner who came into his hands.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    edited January 2016
    System said:
    JBriskin said:

    @MShapland: Understand Jeremy Corbyn has sent an all member email asking for feedback from Labour Members about whether he should sack Hillary Benn

    Things have come to such a pass that I genuinely don't know whether that is satire or not.
    Please be real - Best Reshuffle Eva
    It would be hilarious - list all the shadow cabinet, people can vote for as many as they like, every 6 months the ones with the least votes get the sack. They'll be working hard, tht's for sure.

    And unlike Mr Pack I say bring back daily YouGov polling!
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    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    IIRC, the Red Army was given the run of Berlin after its capture though. That alone produced in the region of 100,000 rapes.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,460
    edited January 2016
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    I know someone of Polish/German descent whose Polish grandmother said the Germans (whilst not nice) were 100 times better than the Russians. The Russians were just wholly uneducated brutes. Pulling taps out because they wanted to take the water with them and that sort of thing.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    He might go of his own accord though.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Oh, without doubt, the Germans had done dreadful things in the Soviet Union. Many Red Army soldiers were thirsting for revenge for what their own families had suffered. And, I don't think there's any real point in passing judgement on them, unless one has been in that position oneself, and managed to rise above taking revenge.
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    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
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    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited January 2016
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    I read Berlin last year. Blinking heck, horrific stuff.

    A lot of up-yours revenge went into that Soviet advance. The actions - especially the mass rape - are far from justifiable but after what the SS had done to them, you can almost understand the blood lust of the NKVD.

    Reading books like that makes me realise how lucky I am. Geez - the whole book is littered with barbaric stuff.

    In contrast, the Walter Wenck story at the end is inspiring. The young German general who led his troops back through the forest to rescue 250,000 Berlin civilians, knowing his troops would be eviscerated in the process. The bravery of him and other soldiers - on all sides - is awe-inspiring. Quite overwhelming to read.

    It's easy to forget that many of the German soldiers did heroic things; the contrast between them and gutless, self-absorbed and delusional tyrants like Himmler is obvious.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    England batting again. They could lose this test if they don't watch out. 20 mins to closeout the day.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @steve_hawkes: Incredibly, now rumours that Corbyn camp were so cheesed off by reaction to Dugher dismissal they're out for revenge again #grownup
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    I keep wondering what the Conservative equivalent would be https://twitter.com/renieanjeh/status/684399069456908289
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Incredibly, now rumours that Corbyn camp were so cheesed off by reaction to Dugher dismissal they're out for revenge again #grownup

    Very Jacobean
  • Options
    David Cameron just confirmed Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave in the House
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
    Catullus, Martial and Ovid were perks of Latin O Level. The really risqué verses were left untranslated in the older textbooks, which gave an added incentive to do some extracurricular study.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bbclaurak: Tories killing themselves laughing when Corbyn says in politics 'you need friends' - stony faces on Labour benches
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2016

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    The PLP are irrelevant to the proceedings; they no longer possess the power to oust him even if they wanted to (or atleast, no power to oust him AND prevent him from then promptly being re-elected in a landslide).

    The people who do have the power to remove him are the very people who put Corbyn there in the first place: the Soft Left in the membership. They will agree to a Corbyn coup if/when he is shown to be a huge liability in local elections, and when there's an alternative Labour leader who, even while more mainstream than Corbyn, nonetheless still has some rock-solid principles they never sacrifice (for example, always voting against cuts to benefit-claimants).
  • Options
    Corbyn just said to Cameron that in negotiations you need to have friends. The House collapsed in laughter
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Corbyn goes on to say PM "is playing Party politics instead of putting the people first"
  • Options
    Do you think Corbyn is under the impression that he has until the football transfer deadline closes?
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Isabel Hardman
    Corbyn tells the House that he learned that many European leaders have v.g. grasp of British politics. "Unlike you!" shouts one Tory.
  • Options

    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
    NB. SPOILERs and some subtitles may be NSFW:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YBd8xEn58
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: PM apologises to Corbyn for EU statement interrupting "longest reshuffle in history"
  • Options

    David Cameron just confirmed Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave in the House

    Huzzah!
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Rob Hutton
    Cameron "you could have watched the entire run of Star Wars movies" while waiting for Corbyn reshuffle.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Fenster said:

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    I read Berlin last year. Blinking heck, horrific stuff.

    ... et...
    Yes fair points.
    But also (no excuses) the Russian High Command cared little for the lives of their own soldiers and the Russian advances suffered heavy losses. Not least I think in the final weeks when they were desperate to capture Berlin.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Dave gag: Never mind how many eagles you end up with, you've got an albatross for leader. Better than the Star Wars one be opened with
  • Options
    Never mind how many Eagles you have in your party, we think you have all worked out you have an albatross as leader of your party. Cameron to Corbyn just now!!!
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    PM: "Never mind how many Eagles he ends up with, they'll have an albatross at the head of their party!" Corbyn stony-faced.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Amongst all the new right hothead stuff on the Breitbart site is the new Cruz political advert. It's worth seeing, if only as an indication of the political mood across the pond.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    David Cameron just confirmed Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave in the House

    Presumably you mean that he confirmed in the House that the Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave.

    Otherwise you could get some very interesting contortions!
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Camos great at PB in-jokes - but ti's not much help to you when you're sweating your ass off in the pub trying to sup your pint is it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
  • Options
    Charles said:

    David Cameron just confirmed Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave in the House

    Presumably you mean that he confirmed in the House that the Cabinet can campaign for remain or leave.

    Otherwise you could get some very interesting contortions!
    Yes
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
    Catullus, Martial and Ovid were perks of Latin O Level. The really risqué verses were left untranslated in the older textbooks, which gave an added incentive to do some extracurricular study.
    We did MacBeth for O level and the Porter's scene did not appear in the copy of the text we were given to study. The first we knew of it was when the school organised had an outing to a live performance of the play. Ninety boys were gobsmacked and most of us looked at Shakespeare with a new light thereafter. Our English master took some stick though, why were we being taught a censored version, what else was being hidden from us etc. etc..

    Not the Master's fault of course and, being the great teacher he was, he diverted us by a bridge puzzle that had appeared in that day's Times (a tricky 4 Spades, makeable but only by the right play to find the Queen of Hearts as I recall).
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Laurak
    Corbyn looks absolutely furious
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    A man who entered the country after running through the Channel Tunnel has been granted asylum. So this is the message we're sending out:

    If you enter the UK illegally from a safe country you can stay here and be housed and fed.

    I wonder how much money we'd save if we closed down the Border Force, it would certainly save a lot of hassle.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
    Catullus, Martial and Ovid were perks of Latin O Level. The really risqué verses were left untranslated in the older textbooks, which gave an added incentive to do some extracurricular study.
    I think we did Ovid for O Level. Definitely not the other two.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SNP bloke burbling on about concrete action on Iran and Saudi - what's he suggesting ?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    That record:

    MacDonald - the only such example, after extreme provocation to Labour

    The rest:

    Henderson - resigned a year after losing his seat in parliament
    Lansbury - resigned on realising that he really wasn't up to it (arguably a second instance)
    Attlee - resigned after losing a second election
    Gaitskell - died in office
    Wilson - resigned on his own terms
    Callaghan - resigned a year after losing the election
    Foot - resigned after losing the election
    Kinnock - resigned after losing his second election
    Smith - Died in office
    Blair - resigned under some pressure but broadly on his own terms
    Brown - resigned after losing an election
    Miliband - resigned after losing an election

    Nearly a hundred years and at most three have been forced out against their will. As a minimum, one - and he'd already set up camp with the Tories.
  • Options

    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
    NB. SPOILERs and some subtitles may be NSFW:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YBd8xEn58
    My feelings summed up there...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
    Catullus, Martial and Ovid were perks of Latin O Level. The really risqué verses were left untranslated in the older textbooks, which gave an added incentive to do some extracurricular study.
    We did MacBeth for O level and the Porter's scene did not appear in the copy of the text we were given to study. The first we knew of it was when the school organised had an outing to a live performance of the play. Ninety boys were gobsmacked and most of us looked at Shakespeare with a new light thereafter. Our English master took some stick though, why were we being taught a censored version, what else was being hidden from us etc. etc..

    Not the Master's fault of course and, being the great teacher he was, he diverted us by a bridge puzzle that had appeared in that day's Times (a tricky 4 Spades, makeable but only by the right play to find the Queen of Hearts as I recall).
    I only discovered a couple of years ago, when I reread The Three Musketeers, that the version we had in the School library had been heavily censored.
  • Options

    Rob Hutton
    Cameron "you could have watched the entire run of Star Wars movies" while waiting for Corbyn reshuffle.

    Is Dave a SW fan??
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ... We also learnt a poem every week - and could be called to recite it on Tuesday mornings. I still have great chunks of poetry in my head.

    "Had we but world enough and time......"

    Hang on, I thought you went to a good Catholic school where reciting that kind of stuff would get you into deep trouble...
    Don't believe the stereotypes. The nuns at my primary school were ferocious believers in education for girls. - and very good at it. We were taught everything. I was a year ahead in maths when I joined my secondary school. They also enjoyed a good laugh and, based on what my parents told me, were rather fond of a drink as well. We used to have biology classes in the gardens of the school when the weather was fine so that we could actually learn about trees and plants close up and not just from books.

    I learned "To His Coy Mistress" for A Level. It's a great poem. I remember being rather surprised to learn that it was written by a Puritan, but thinking about it, Puritans were never very puritanical when it came to sex. They were worked about keeping the Sabbath and worldly dancing.

    We also learned The Miller's Tale (I remember there was an annual campaign to get it banned from the curriculum).

    But, we were never taught Catullus or Martial.
    Catullus, Martial and Ovid were perks of Latin O Level. The really risqué verses were left untranslated in the older textbooks, which gave an added incentive to do some extracurricular study.
    We did MacBeth for O level and the Porter's scene did not appear in the copy of the text we were given to study. The first we knew of it was when the school organised had an outing to a live performance of the play. Ninety boys were gobsmacked and most of us looked at Shakespeare with a new light thereafter. Our English master took some stick though, why were we being taught a censored version, what else was being hidden from us etc. etc..

    Not the Master's fault of course and, being the great teacher he was, he diverted us by a bridge puzzle that had appeared in that day's Times (a tricky 4 Spades, makeable but only by the right play to find the Queen of Hearts as I recall).
    I only discovered a couple of years ago, when I reread The Three Musketeers, that the version we had in the School library had been heavily censored.
    Our school library had a copy of Leonard Cohen's 'Beautiful Losers'. Check it out if you don't know why that was highly inappropriate.
  • Options

    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
    NB. SPOILERs and some subtitles may be NSFW:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YBd8xEn58
    My feelings summed up there...
    I am afraid you are completely wrong.
  • Options

    Laurak
    Corbyn looks absolutely furious

    That famous pacifist temper.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2016

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
    The difference is that, unlike Corbyn, Brown's power base was very much among MPs, and he had received North Korean levels of support from the PLP in what passed for the leadership "contest"; few politicians are going to publicly eat humble pie and admit they made the wrong decision just a couple of years earlier. But with Corbyn, needless to say that for the vast majority of the PLP it would not involve eating humble pie for them to say Corbyn had to go.

    There really is no question at all this time that the PLP would be "brave" enough to oust Corbyn if they thought it would be successful.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    taffys said:

    ''It was, briefly, and then it was swept under the carpet. Anthony Beevor's book caused a massive storm in Russia. ''

    The Russians were brutalised by liberating thousands of villages and towns occupied by the Germans. Goodness knows what sights they must have seen, bit even so,

    According to Beevor the Russian front line troops were often well behaved. It was the NKVD scum that came behind them that were often the real perpetrators.

    Hmmmm.. yes but. The rape of Germany, and not just its women, was Soviet policy and actively encouraged by political officers within the Soviet Army. So yes some frontline troops did behave well but many, possibly the majority, did not. There was of course an element of revenge because the German army when it was going the other way were not exactly nice to the Russian populace, and never mind any nonsense that it was just the SS who were bad boys in that respect, the regular army had very dirty hands too.

    Yet, in the West the Germans behaved, on the whole, very well. Probably, with a few notable exceptions, no worse than did the Brits, Canadians, and Americans as they entered Germany. the racial propaganda produced horrid effects.
    War turns men into savages, nobody is blameless. What concerns me is the authorities seemingly turning a blind eye to what is going on right now, under our noses. Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law. As others have pointed out, why the outrage over Hamburg when far worse has and probably still is going on in Rotherham, Oxford etc.

    This will end badly, hardly a prescient statement.

    "... Its time we stopped treating people according to their culture or beliefs and treated everybody equally under the law ..."

    Report for Diversity Training forthwith, Mr. 63. There will you discover that everyone must be treated according to their needs. The whole thing of treating people equally, or God forbid, treating others as you would like to be treated is just disguised racism/homophobia/sexism/islamophobia/transgenderophobia of any other such nonsense.
  • Options
    BTW many thanks to Mark Pack for his polling database,
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
    The difference is that, unlike Corbyn, Brown's power base was very much among MPs, and he had received North Korean levels of support from the PLP in what passed for the leadership "contest"; few politicians are going to publicly eat humble pie and admit they made the wrong decision just a couple of years earlier. But with Corbyn, needless to say that for the vast majority of the PLP it would not involve eating humble pie for them to say Corbyn had to go.
    Oh, indeed. But there still remains the question of 'how'? They also need to be sure that the membership and friends won't put him or someone like him back.
  • Options

    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
    NB. SPOILERs and some subtitles may be NSFW:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YBd8xEn58
    My feelings summed up there...
    I am afraid you are completely wrong.
    Your message deserves.... 60 portions :)
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2016

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    But equally, since we now know how leader-focussed the average floating voter is, opinion polls now when atleast one (quite possibly both) of the two main party leaders will not still be in post by the next election, are not much use.

    You seem very confident JJ will be gone by the GE. The Labour party haven't exactly got a stellar record in removing leaders and the current crop of PLP'ers are utterly spineless.
    If Corbyn is as terrible as people say on Labour's electoral prospects, then sooner or later that will be undeniable - there are only so many London Mayoral elections and not-so-bad locals someone that truly terrible could manage. If he is as bad as they say, even famously risk averse Labour will jettison him.

    If expected electoral drubbings never emerge to the extent people say, then he might well remain in place, because clearly he won't have been as terrible as people predicted (though probably still too poor to win a GE)
    Gordo got poll ratings down to mid 20%'s, lost most of the country in local elections and still nothing...
    Labour's lowest poll rating under Brown was 18%. It'll be in Mark's list. For a while in May 2009, Labour was *averaging* in the low 20s.
    The difference is that, unlike Corbyn, Brown's power base was very much among MPs, and he had received North Korean levels of support from the PLP in what passed for the leadership "contest"; few politicians are going to publicly eat humble pie and admit they made the wrong decision just a couple of years earlier. But with Corbyn, needless to say that for the vast majority of the PLP it would not involve eating humble pie for them to say Corbyn had to go.
    Oh, indeed. But there still remains the question of 'how'? They also need to be sure that the membership and friends won't put him or someone like him back.
    Sure, but my point is more addressed to the people asking why the PLP aren't "doing something" to remove Corbyn. The reality is they have no ability to do something unless/until they get the agreement of the membership. It's not a question of willingness or "spine".
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Are labour survivors going to be picked up by SS LibDem? Otherwise its Davy Jones for them.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    BBCLauraK
    Tories killing themselves laughing when Corbyn says in politics 'you need friends' - stony faces on Labour benches
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    JJ in a car is the give away isn't it ;-)
    NB. SPOILERs and some subtitles may be NSFW:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YBd8xEn58
    My feelings summed up there...
    I am afraid you are completely wrong.
    Your message deserves.... 60 portions :)
    To my mind TFA is only bettered by TESB. It probably falls behind ANH in terms of cinematic experience but that is only because ANH was so original and watching it was such an exciting and new thrill. TFA gets better every time you watch it even having started from a high mark.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249

    BBCLauraK
    Tories killing themselves laughing when Corbyn says in politics 'you need friends' - stony faces on Labour benches

    LOL. Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive.
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