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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    I've just heard a repeat of Ken Livingstone's interview on LBC regarding Simon Danczuk. He managed to get sexual abuse, paedophiles all in the same sentence. God, these people really are something, they would trample over their own mother to score a political point.

    As I said earlier, SD has been a bloody fool, it's hard to believe he fell for this.

    Because Ken's love life is and has always been dead straight....It doesn't learn from for instance his comments on Boris the tax dodger, only to find that Boris pays way more than he really needs to and the only tax dodger in that election was him.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited 2015 31
    Mortimer said:

    Hahaha!

    Abbott has taken the bait and responded to Mandelson's column.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/31/jeremy-corbyn-labour-peter-mandelson

    I'm convinced that every time she appears on QT, Newsnight, in the Guardian etc, that Labour lose another few hundred votes to the Tories in marginals.

    Keep going Diane!

    I doubt the Guardian affects marginals...!
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    Mortimer said:

    Hahaha!

    Abbott has taken the bait and responded to Mandelson's column.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/31/jeremy-corbyn-labour-peter-mandelson

    I'm convinced that every time she appears on QT, Newsnight, in the Guardian etc, that Labour lose another few hundred votes to the Tories in marginals.

    Keep going Diane!

    I very much doubt she was even aware she 'wrote' that...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31
    Woman on Sky is saying that this hotel has one of the best views for the New Year fireworks and so was rammed. She seems totally unconvinced that everybody will have got out safely, given how busy it was and how fast the fire has spread.

    She is also saying that at least 2 other skyscrapers have had fires this year alone.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Why opinion pollsters failed to predict overall majority for Cameron

    Young, politically engaged Labour voters were over-represented in surveys while older Tories were under-represented, study finds

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/31/uk-2015-general-election-opinion-polling-systematic-bias
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited 2015 31
    Big thanks to @SeanT @taffys @surbiton and anyone else who provided info on BA first class in the previous thread.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    Why opinion pollsters failed to predict overall majority for Cameron

    Young, politically engaged Labour voters were over-represented in surveys while older Tories were under-represented, study finds

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/31/uk-2015-general-election-opinion-polling-systematic-bias

    I hope they didn't pay good money for that. They could have found that out here many months ago - in various No Shit, Sherlock threads....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    Why opinion pollsters failed to predict overall majority for Cameron

    Young, politically engaged Labour voters were over-represented in surveys while older Tories were under-represented, study finds

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/31/uk-2015-general-election-opinion-polling-systematic-bias

    I hope they didn't pay good money for that. They could have found that out here many months ago - in various No Shit, Sherlock threads....
    Next the brain trust behind this will be telling us that Twitter might have a bias towards left of centre opinion...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Britain Elects
    December 2014, a far cry from December 2015. https://t.co/CItIm7mIpR
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,251

    Why opinion pollsters failed to predict overall majority for Cameron

    Young, politically engaged Labour voters were over-represented in surveys while older Tories were under-represented, study finds

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/31/uk-2015-general-election-opinion-polling-systematic-bias

    I hope they didn't pay good money for that. They could have found that out here many months ago - in various No Shit, Sherlock threads....
    This surely is not very consistent with the late swing many people put the pollsters' failure down to. If there were structural issues in who they were polling, surely that would have remained the case for some time rather than a last-minute change.

    In which case, Basil might have been rested a year or more earlier ...
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Got to watch some more excellent BAFTA screeners so I will now wish all PBers a happy and prosperous New Year..even those in the very far North of the Kingdom..and I hope all Labour supporters have as good a year in 2016 as they did in 2015..xxx
  • TomTom Posts: 273

    Mortimer said:

    Hahaha!

    Abbott has taken the bait and responded to Mandelson's column.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/31/jeremy-corbyn-labour-peter-mandelson

    I'm convinced that every time she appears on QT, Newsnight, in the Guardian etc, that Labour lose another few hundred votes to the Tories in marginals.

    Keep going Diane!

    I very much doubt she was even aware she 'wrote' that...
    Better written than she could manage. Milne passive aggressivism - the man who has been briefing the re-shuffle in the first place. If I were mandelson I'd have steered clear and left them to it. Their whole Xmas press operation has been to set up a 'jeremy didn't want to but you've made him do it 'narrative.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Happy New Year everyone!

    I am indulging in a complete immersion day of football. Right now it's the Peach Bowl from Atlanta, Houston v Florida State. I don't have a dog in the fight though I like Florida State.

    Then it's the college football playoff semi-finals - Oklahoma v Clemson, Alabama v Michigan State.

    Go Tigers! Roll Tide!

    My nightmare is a Clemson v Alabama final. Clemson is just a few miles up the road, and I've supported Bama for over 30 years. Luckily the final is on my birthday so I could go out for dinner if I can find a restaurant with no TVs.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ben Gartside
    I do enjoy when Corbynites say "Don't trust the polls"when we are 8 points behind. Mate, the problem is that polls were biased in our favour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    Ben Gartside
    I do enjoy when Corbynites say "Don't trust the polls"when we are 8 points behind. Mate, the problem is that polls were biased in our favour

    Hope springs eternal - maybe the polls are now overcompensating!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Dubai authorities still claiming they are going to set off 1000's of tonnes of explosives at the top of the hour...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Mo Data
    Don't forget, the clock goes forward by one year at midnight.

    :smiley:
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Dubai authorities still claiming they are going to set off 1000's of tonnes of explosives at the top of the hour...

    They must really be confident there are no fatalities?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    Mo Data
    Don't forget, the clock goes forward by one year at midnight.

    :smiley:

    If Jahadi Jez gets into power, we will be talking about turn them back 50 years...
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    RodCrosby said:

    Wan't The Towering Inferno set on New Years Eve, too?

    Or was that The Poseidon Adventure?

    Poseidon adventure was New Year's Eve. The towering inferno was the opening ceremony for the building. At least in the latter the building designer who cut corners on fire protection had the decency to fall out of the 149th floor window 10 minutes from the end.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
    Sky just shown pictures of people getting treatment on the pavement, so it is clearly bollocks...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Another fahrenheit moment -

    Today in 1967, the Green Bay Packers and Dallas Cowboys played in 'The Ice Bowl'. The average wind chill was -36 degrees
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Just following up on a post a couple of nights back regarding the suspected threat by IS inspired types to attack New Years Eve revellers in a number of Western and North African countries.

    The arrests, event cancellations and 'largest number of police on duty' reports are now all well within the news domain.

    Curiously though a prominent British passport holder who fights for IS, has been urging followers to go for New Years Day.

    Only one problem, he's been sending these ideas via a well known, apparently secure encrypted messaging application.

    There is a weak link in the chain somewhere.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31
    God they really have gone ahead with fireworks in Dubai....look look over there pretty fireworks, don't worry about that massive building over there glowing with 50 floors on fire....

    If Dubai hoped this wouldn't ruin the PR, it is even worse. Sky split screen looks terrible, as you see the reflections of fireworks and lights onto the building that is on fire.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Amazing scenes in Dubai as the fireworks cast beautiful reflections on the smoking 'scraper...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dubai news feed saying 1 dead, 14 injured
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
    Sky just shown pictures of people getting treatment on the pavement, so it is clearly bollocks...

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
    Sky just shown pictures of people getting treatment on the pavement, so it is clearly bollocks...
    Oh dear. I guess it was inevitable really.

    An eye witness described people fighting and clambering over each other to get out.
    Sky reporter " would you describe it as panic"
    Eye witness " errr... Yes"

    Where do they get these dumbass reporters?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
    Sky just shown pictures of people getting treatment on the pavement, so it is clearly bollocks...

    Moses_ said:

    SeanT said:

    Moses_ said:

    Civil defence Dubai reporting no injuries reported from the hotel at the moment. Dubai fireworks for the new year are going to continue as planned.

    Sky news.

    If there really are no injuries - inshallah - then congrats to Dubai for a brilliant evacuation, though their building regulations might need a little attention.
    Indeed
    It was a very qualified "no injuries" I think. It would be amazing if everyone escaped it was packed for the firework display but let's very much hope so!

    I think their fire alarms and sprinkler systems will need some adjustment as well.
    Sky just shown pictures of people getting treatment on the pavement, so it is clearly bollocks...
    Oh dear. I guess it was inevitable really.

    An eye witness described people fighting and clambering over each other to get out.
    Sky reporter " would you describe it as panic"
    Eye witness " errr... Yes"

    Where do they get these dumbass reporters?
    They were saying earlier oh look it seems to be going out because the flames are dying down. Has he ever seen a damn campfire for instance, that is what a fire does, it gets white hot in the middle...
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
    I thought that was the on/off button...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    Dubai news feed saying 1 dead, 14 injured

    But look look pretty fireworks...the ultimate "dead cat".
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
    I thought that was the on/off button...
    It's certainly a turn on......
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
    Nope just checked the user handbook...... That's the bASS control.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Moses_ said:

    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
    Nope just checked the user handbook...... That's the bASS control.
    The turn on slider is just in front of that.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Tim_B said:

    Moses_ said:

    Tim_B said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    The treble and bass knobs will be user friendly, for sure....
    There is a slider lower down for volume.....
    Nope just checked the user handbook...... That's the bASS control.
    The turn on slider is just in front of that.
    Oh yes my apologies I was reading the Japanese Instructions however, it does not explain if the frequency of use depends on the amount of waved length ?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 31
    A USA report on our stupid bombers is very funny, it's so straight.

    http://m.nydailynews.com/news/world/couple-found-guilty-planning-7-7-anniversary-attack-article-1.2480089
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The Dubai authorities' claims of only minor injuries aren't very convincing, to put it mildly.
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 463
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Tony Martin's in the news again:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35206113

    The police and CPS seem to be after him after being humiliated so badly at the time of his original incarceration. It feels like a very personal attack on this man.
    It's perhaps more likely that he can no longer get a licence because of his criminal record... but has a firearm anyway.
    A criminal record he should not have and does not deserve. It's probable that you are right, but this still feels vindictive.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. A jury considered the evidence and decided that a conviction for murder was justified. They had the option of convicting him of manslaughter or acquitting him (both options explicitly laid out for them by the judge) but they rejected both of these options. Unlike those who get their facts from the press (many of the reports being misleading or just plain wrong) the jurors were in possession of all the evidence. In the context of today's report it is perhaps worth reminding people that he did not hold a licence for the shotgun he used in the shooting of Barras and Fearon.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Stig Abell
    As we look back on 2015, this is still my favourite political tweet of the year. https://t.co/LsOct09vJk
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Tim_B said:

    Apple does it again!

    Apple today announced that it has developed a breast implant that can store and play music.

    The iTit will cost from $499 to $699 depending on cup and speaker size.

    This is considered a major social breakthrough because women are always complaining about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    Very nice as it borders on the believable
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31

    Stig Abell
    As we look back on 2015, this is still my favourite political tweet of the year. https://t.co/LsOct09vJk

    "Russell Brand has endorsed Labour – and the Tories should be worried" - Owen Jones

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/04/russell-brand-endorsed-labour-tories-should-be-worried
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31

    Stig Abell
    As we look back on 2015, this is still my favourite political tweet of the year. https://t.co/LsOct09vJk

    This has some classics...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11594126/It-is-the-end-of-David-Camerons-career-The-worst-election-night-predictions.html
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:

    Stig Abell
    As we look back on 2015, this is still my favourite political tweet of the year. https://t.co/LsOct09vJk

    This has some classics...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11594126/It-is-the-end-of-David-Camerons-career-The-worst-election-night-predictions.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,251
    If there have been as many high-rise fires in Dubai as claimed (*), why is this happening? It can't just be poor building codes.

    AFAICR India had significant problems with people taking portable cookers on trains and even planes, leading to several disasters. Saudia Flight 163 might have crashed because of the use of such cookers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudia_Flight_163

    There has to be a reason, if the number is as much an aberration as it appears.

    (*) E.g. the aptly-named Torch earlier in the year:
    http://www.dezeen.com/2015/02/23/torch-tower-skyscraper-dubai-fire/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31

    If there have been as many high-rise fires in Dubai as claimed (*), why is this happening? It can't just be poor building codes.

    AFAICR India had significant problems with people taking portable cookers on trains and even planes, leading to several disasters. Saudia Flight 163 might have crashed because of the use of such cookers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudia_Flight_163

    There has to be a reason, if the number is as much an aberration as it appears.

    (*) E.g. the aptly-named Torch earlier in the year:
    http://www.dezeen.com/2015/02/23/torch-tower-skyscraper-dubai-fire/

    You can have as many building codes as you like, if people stick to them / they are enforced is another matter.

    There are eye witness claims in this case that despite fire raging right outside of people's apartments, the alarms still weren't sounding nor sprinklers going off.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Tony Martin's in the news again:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35206113

    The police and CPS seem to be after him after being humiliated so badly at the time of his original incarceration. It feels like a very personal attack on this man.
    It's perhaps more likely that he can no longer get a licence because of his criminal record... but has a firearm anyway.
    A criminal record he should not have and does not deserve. It's probable that you are right, but this still feels vindictive.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. A jury considered the evidence and decided that a conviction for murder was justified. They had the option of convicting him of manslaughter or acquitting him (both options explicitly laid out for them by the judge) but they rejected both of these options. Unlike those who get their facts from the press (many of the reports being misleading or just plain wrong) the jurors were in possession of all the evidence. In the context of today's report it is perhaps worth reminding people that he did not hold a licence for the shotgun he used in the shooting of Barras and Fearon.
    I once sat next to a judge at a dinner, and he said - basically - that when 12 people make up their minds, unanimously, and after hearing all the evidence, then the decision is almost always right. What we see in the newspapers - or read on the Internet - is usually slanted, and contains only a subset of the facts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31
    surbiton said:

    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !

    The problem is with the likes of Periscope, Feudal dictatorships are losing the battle in controlling the message. The result was, despite Dubai being desperate to signal to the world look at our amazing firework display, what a modern progressive attractive country we are, what we actually got was a nice split screen of fireworks on one side of the screen, the towering inferno on the other.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,108
    So anyhoo...I'm a bit squiffy at the mo, and will be off out in a bit pursuant to many other drinks to be drunk. So while I can still type I'd wish to wish you all a happy new year. Even if this site comes across as a weird telepod accident between Eurosceptics and the SNP, it's more fun than a bucket of soapy frogs, and in 2016 may the odds be ever in your favor...

    (salutes screen, slopes off into forest clutching bow...lost to sight, smash cut to black, credits...)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 31
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Tony Martin's in the news again:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35206113

    The police and CPS seem to be after him after being humiliated so badly at the time of his original incarceration. It feels like a very personal attack on this man.
    It's perhaps more likely that he can no longer get a licence because of his criminal record... but has a firearm anyway.
    A criminal record he should not have and does not deserve. It's probable that you are right, but this still feels vindictive.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. A jury considered the evidence and decided that a conviction for murder was justified. They had the option of convicting him of manslaughter or acquitting him (both options explicitly laid out for them by the judge) but they rejected both of these options. Unlike those who get their facts from the press (many of the reports being misleading or just plain wrong) the jurors were in possession of all the evidence. In the context of today's report it is perhaps worth reminding people that he did not hold a licence for the shotgun he used in the shooting of Barras and Fearon.
    I once sat next to a judge at a dinner, and he said - basically - that when 12 people make up their minds, unanimously, and after hearing all the evidence, then the decision is almost always right. What we see in the newspapers - or read on the Internet - is usually slanted, and contains only a subset of the facts.
    I think where this falls down is when the crime is complex, perhaps not even clear cut any crime has even been committed. Something like murder is much easier in that respect as we have a dead person (of course getting to the bottom of if it was murder, man slaughter etc, but it is clear somebody died from unnatural causes), but financial crimes, computer hacking etc it gets very very complex, very quickly.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Moses_ said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Wan't The Towering Inferno set on New Years Eve, too?

    Or was that The Poseidon Adventure?

    Poseidon adventure was New Year's Eve. The towering inferno was the opening ceremony for the building. At least in the latter the building designer who cut corners on fire protection had the decency to fall out of the 149th floor window 10 minutes from the end.
    Even though I saw the Towering Inferno 40 years ago, one scene is still in my mind. I think [ was it William Holden ? ] who said when a skyscraper catches fire, there is very little you can do. It was true then as it is true today. Fire fighters cannot really deal with any fire above 30 stories.

    Maybe they should have gone for those helicopter drops.

    But, of course, they had the NY celebrations to worry about !
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    surbiton said:

    Moses_ said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Wan't The Towering Inferno set on New Years Eve, too?

    Or was that The Poseidon Adventure?

    Poseidon adventure was New Year's Eve. The towering inferno was the opening ceremony for the building. At least in the latter the building designer who cut corners on fire protection had the decency to fall out of the 149th floor window 10 minutes from the end.
    Even though I saw the Towering Inferno 40 years ago, one scene is still in my mind. I think [ was it William Holden ? ] who said when a skyscraper catches fire, there is very little you can do. It was true then as it is true today. Fire fighters cannot really deal with any fire above 30 stories.

    Maybe they should have gone for those helicopter drops.

    But, of course, they had the NY celebrations to worry about !
    Apparently, the authorities have placed an order for jet packs...no giggling at the back. I am not sure even helicopter drops would do that much given how fast this thing went up.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,085
    surbiton said:

    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !

    The France vs. Germany match continued even as IS idiots were trying to bomb it. How do you know what is the safe or appropriate thing for them to do in Dubai? They might well have come to a similar view to the one the French authorities did.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Tony Martin's in the news again:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35206113

    The police and CPS seem to be after him after being humiliated so badly at the time of his original incarceration. It feels like a very personal attack on this man.
    It's perhaps more likely that he can no longer get a licence because of his criminal record... but has a firearm anyway.
    A criminal record he should not have and does not deserve. It's probable that you are right, but this still feels vindictive.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. A jury considered the evidence and decided that a conviction for murder was justified. They had the option of convicting him of manslaughter or acquitting him (both options explicitly laid out for them by the judge) but they rejected both of these options. Unlike those who get their facts from the press (many of the reports being misleading or just plain wrong) the jurors were in possession of all the evidence. In the context of today's report it is perhaps worth reminding people that he did not hold a licence for the shotgun he used in the shooting of Barras and Fearon.
    I once sat next to a judge at a dinner, and he said - basically - that when 12 people make up their minds, unanimously, and after hearing all the evidence, then the decision is almost always right. What we see in the newspapers - or read on the Internet - is usually slanted, and contains only a subset of the facts.
    I think where this falls down is when the crime is complex, perhaps not even clear cut any crime has even been committed. Something like murder is much easier in that respect as we have a dead person (of course getting to the bottom of if it was murder, man slaughter etc, but it is clear somebody died from unnatural causes), but financial crimes, computer hacking etc it gets very very complex, very quickly.
    I am not sure if a jury of 12 "ordinary" people is the best way to deal with complex financial fraud. People also forget how "executives" avoid juries.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !

    The France vs. Germany match continued even as IS idiots were trying to bomb it. How do you know what is the safe or appropriate thing for them to do in Dubai? They might well have come to a similar view to the one the French authorities did.
    The France v Germany game was already on and many were not sure what was actually happening. Here we had the fireworks 2 1/2 hours early.

    I think the Emirs overplayed their hand and looked really insensitive. The show must go on is probably right in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. Not when a full scale fire is raging.

    I also don't buy this "no casualties" announcement within 25 minutes.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    AndyJS said:

    The Address WAS number 17 out of 524 hotels

    Corrected for you.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 31

    surbiton said:

    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !

    The problem is with the likes of Periscope, Feudal dictatorships are losing the battle in controlling the message. The result was, despite Dubai being desperate to signal to the world look at our amazing firework display, what a modern progressive attractive country we are, what we actually got was a nice split screen of fireworks on one side of the screen, the towering inferno on the other.
    The news "managers" have been so used to managing that they lose perspective.

    Did you notice Al-Jazeera was the least informative ? I expected them to be right at the place. Maybe they have to work within restrictions, more than anyone else being Qataris.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 31
    Fun Bungler
    I see this year's Die Hard reenactment by the Nakatomi Plaza Xmas Party Guild is a bit full on. https://t.co/47LZHoPUlB
  • glwglw Posts: 10,085
    surbiton said:

    The France v Germany game was already on and many were not sure what was actually happening. Here we had the fireworks 2 1/2 hours early.

    I think the Emirs overplayed their hand and looked really insensitive. The show must go on is probably right in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. Not when a full scale fire is raging.

    You are presuming what has happened is simply a fire. The people at the fireworks event are presumably in a place that is safe, and until authorities have a good idea of what has happened and are sure it is safe to send people home it might be the best thing to keep them there and have the events continue.
    surbiton said:

    I also don't buy this "no casualties" announcement within 25 minutes.

    I agree with that, but it has no bearing on what to do about the fireworks display.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    The annual UKIP conference in autumn 2003 in London was a two-day affair, and the first day was a propaganda show open to the public (the second day was for internal party business) so i went along.

    The guest speaker for the opening session was the aforementioned Tony Martin, who spoke in favour of UKIP's then obsession-of-the-week in championing the Ordinary Citizen's right to "defend" himself and his home from burglars. He spoke relatively incoherently for a few minutes (he was obviously unaccustomed to public speaking, and I think he was essentially being used by UKIP for its own purposes) and clearly didn't understand the reality of why he had been convicted or imprisoned in the first place.

    The vast majority of the audience gave him a huge cheering-and-standing ovation, as if they were hailing some sort of great Hero of the People. I deliberately sat with my arms folded, looking as miserable as possible, to indicate that I disagreed with the prevailing opinion in the hall. As far as i am concerned, Tony Martin was correctly convicted of murder, and it was a miscarriage of justice when his conviction was reduced on appeal to manslaughter.

    I was bewildered at the fact that a major political party should be so blinkered in misunderstanding and misrepresenting a basic part of the existing law (they seemed to think that "self-defence" didn't require any element about the amount which was "reasonable", and they obviously thought it was OK for householders to murder burglars willy-nilly with gay abandon).

    It was at that moment that I realised that, although I was against UK membership of the EU, I could never join UKIP and be a member alongside other members of such mentality.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    If anyone did not quite understand what the word "surreal" meant, a bit of television watching at 00:00 hours at Dubai would have got it.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Tory Jim
    2016 marks 950 years since the last invasion of England of any note and 50 years since England were any good at football. #landmarks
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    JohnLoony said:

    The annual UKIP conference in autumn 2003 in London was a two-day affair, and the first day was a propaganda show open to the public (the second day was for internal party business) so i went along.

    The guest speaker for the opening session was the aforementioned Tony Martin, who spoke in favour of UKIP's then obsession-of-the-week in championing the Ordinary Citizen's right to "defend" himself and his home from burglars. He spoke relatively incoherently for a few minutes (he was obviously unaccustomed to public speaking, and I think he was essentially being used by UKIP for its own purposes) and clearly didn't understand the reality of why he had been convicted or imprisoned in the first place.

    The vast majority of the audience gave him a huge cheering-and-standing ovation, as if they were hailing some sort of great Hero of the People. I deliberately sat with my arms folded, looking as miserable as possible, to indicate that I disagreed with the prevailing opinion in the hall. As far as i am concerned, Tony Martin was correctly convicted of murder, and it was a miscarriage of justice when his conviction was reduced on appeal to manslaughter.

    I was bewildered at the fact that a major political party should be so blinkered in misunderstanding and misrepresenting a basic part of the existing law (they seemed to think that "self-defence" didn't require any element about the amount which was "reasonable", and they obviously thought it was OK for householders to murder burglars willy-nilly with gay abandon).

    It was at that moment that I realised that, although I was against UK membership of the EU, I could never join UKIP and be a member alongside other members of such mentality.

    I don't have a problem with defending your property by shooting a burglar.

    From what I recall of the case he shot one of the intruders in the back. That's problematic.

    If you break into someone's home and they have a gun, you deserve whatever you get.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    JohnLoony said:

    The annual UKIP conference in autumn 2003 in London was a two-day affair, and the first day was a propaganda show open to the public (the second day was for internal party business) so i went along.

    The guest speaker for the opening session was the aforementioned Tony Martin, who spoke in favour of UKIP's then obsession-of-the-week in championing the Ordinary Citizen's right to "defend" himself and his home from burglars. He spoke relatively incoherently for a few minutes (he was obviously unaccustomed to public speaking, and I think he was essentially being used by UKIP for its own purposes) and clearly didn't understand the reality of why he had been convicted or imprisoned in the first place.

    The vast majority of the audience gave him a huge cheering-and-standing ovation, as if they were hailing some sort of great Hero of the People. I deliberately sat with my arms folded, looking as miserable as possible, to indicate that I disagreed with the prevailing opinion in the hall. As far as i am concerned, Tony Martin was correctly convicted of murder, and it was a miscarriage of justice when his conviction was reduced on appeal to manslaughter.

    I was bewildered at the fact that a major political party should be so blinkered in misunderstanding and misrepresenting a basic part of the existing law (they seemed to think that "self-defence" didn't require any element about the amount which was "reasonable", and they obviously thought it was OK for householders to murder burglars willy-nilly with gay abandon).

    It was at that moment that I realised that, although I was against UK membership of the EU, I could never join UKIP and be a member alongside other members of such mentality.

    There are other issues, such as whether you have the right to use reasonable force to prevent people burgling your property, and what counts as reasonable when you are outnumbered by younger, stronger men. But as it happens Martin shot them while running away. While he undoubtedly did the world a favour, that does have to be illegal. However I think manslaughter was about right, in that a shotgun loaded with birdshot is not normally lethal when used on humans.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883
    JohnLoony said:

    The annual UKIP conference in autumn 2003 in London was a two-day affair, and the first day was a propaganda show open to the public (the second day was for internal party business) so i went along.

    The guest speaker for the opening session was the aforementioned Tony Martin, who spoke in favour of UKIP's then obsession-of-the-week in championing the Ordinary Citizen's right to "defend" himself and his home from burglars. He spoke relatively incoherently for a few minutes (he was obviously unaccustomed to public speaking, and I think he was essentially being used by UKIP for its own purposes) and clearly didn't understand the reality of why he had been convicted or imprisoned in the first place.

    The vast majority of the audience gave him a huge cheering-and-standing ovation, as if they were hailing some sort of great Hero of the People. I deliberately sat with my arms folded, looking as miserable as possible, to indicate that I disagreed with the prevailing opinion in the hall. As far as i am concerned, Tony Martin was correctly convicted of murder, and it was a miscarriage of justice when his conviction was reduced on appeal to manslaughter.

    I was bewildered at the fact that a major political party should be so blinkered in misunderstanding and misrepresenting a basic part of the existing law (they seemed to think that "self-defence" didn't require any element about the amount which was "reasonable", and they obviously thought it was OK for householders to murder burglars willy-nilly with gay abandon).

    It was at that moment that I realised that, although I was against UK membership of the EU, I could never join UKIP and be a member alongside other members of such mentality.

    I'm not so bothered as you are about burglars' rights.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Tory Jim
    2016 marks 950 years since the last invasion of England of any note and 50 years since England were any good at football. #landmarks

    Better that than the other way round.

    We do gloss over 1688 though.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    Tory Jim
    2016 marks 950 years since the last invasion of England of any note and 50 years since England were any good at football. #landmarks

    The Scottish invasion of 1651 was certainly of note, and some would count 1688. England was invaded again in 1745 but it was after the Union so probably doesn't count.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    The campaign manager of Republican Ben Carson’s presidential run and another top aide resigned on Thursday amid sliding poll numbers for the retired neurosurgeon.

    “Barry Bennett and I have resigned from the Carson campaign effective immediately,” communications director Doug Watts said in a statement as he and campaign manager Bennett departed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/ben-carson-top-aides-quit-republican-campaign
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    FPT
    HYUFD said:

    Danczuk clearly made a mistake but he did not do anything illegal, given the Labour Party clearly no longer want having suspended him from the party and his hostility to Corbyn there must be a strong possibility he will defect to UKIP

    If he indeed defects to UKIP, that is where he would deserve to be. It will be another reckless move.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The campaign manager of Republican Ben Carson’s presidential run and another top aide resigned on Thursday amid sliding poll numbers for the retired neurosurgeon.

    “Barry Bennett and I have resigned from the Carson campaign effective immediately,” communications director Doug Watts said in a statement as he and campaign manager Bennett departed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/ben-carson-top-aides-quit-republican-campaign

    Carson has sold many copies of his book. His job is done.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    surbiton said:

    The campaign manager of Republican Ben Carson’s presidential run and another top aide resigned on Thursday amid sliding poll numbers for the retired neurosurgeon.

    “Barry Bennett and I have resigned from the Carson campaign effective immediately,” communications director Doug Watts said in a statement as he and campaign manager Bennett departed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/ben-carson-top-aides-quit-republican-campaign

    Carson has sold many copies of his book. His job is done.
    Is it top of the fiction charts?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2015 31

    The campaign manager of Republican Ben Carson’s presidential run and another top aide resigned on Thursday amid sliding poll numbers for the retired neurosurgeon.

    “Barry Bennett and I have resigned from the Carson campaign effective immediately,” communications director Doug Watts said in a statement as he and campaign manager Bennett departed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/ben-carson-top-aides-quit-republican-campaign

    Carson was all over the news networks last night explaining how he is 'streamlining' his campaign.

    It doesn't look good. He was reduced to saying how many honorary degrees he has. It's over 60
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    There's a strong argument for that point of view IMO.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,137

    Tory Jim
    2016 marks 950 years since the last invasion of England of any note and 50 years since England were any good at football. #landmarks

    The Scottish invasion of 1651 was certainly of note, and some would count 1688. England was invaded again in 1745 but it was after the Union so probably doesn't count.
    Quite right too. On that theme, I have just ordered Christopher Hill's 'World turned upside down' as a result of a PBer recommendation - looking forward to it.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346
    Funnily enough some tw*t(s) broke into my sister's house last night. They took hardly anything - we think they may have heard someone get up or something - but God help anyone who is caught by my sister.

    From what I can remember of the Martin case, I think what he did was wrong, but he'd been broken into many times before and the local plod couldn't give a toss.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    Does that mean I'm allowed to murder them then?
    Can I murder them if I think they are a burglar, but they're actually not?
    Can I pretend that I think they're a burglar, even though I know they're not, and then murder them anyway?
    Can I lure my intended victim to my house on a pretext, then murder him, then pretend I thought he was a burglar?
    Is it OK if it's a stray child who has wandered into the house by accident? Is the death of an innocent child a price worth paying for my otherwise unconstrained blood-lust in being allowed to murder people?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    Is there any obvious reason why Cruz won't win the GOP nomination? Looks to have the mo outside of Trump; is he the new establishment candidate?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,346
    @JohnLoony - I suppose the argument would be - it's your responsibility to make sure that they are burglars. That is, even if Mr Pistorius thought he was shooting a burglar - and I don't believe that story for a second - that would not be an excuse. From what I remember Martin lived in a remote farmhouse and didn't have any family so knew that anyone who was in the property shouldn't have been there. He was right.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,365
    Tony Martin's problems were (1) he shot them with an unregistered gun he had purchased illegally after his licence had been removed because he had threatened to use his gun to kill any intruders (2) he did not shout a warning (3) they were running away at the time and clearly no threat to him (4) he was trying to either wound or kill them. The jury thought it was the second and found him guilty of murder. The appeal court thought it was the first and found him guilty of manslaughter.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of have a go heroes, he is a very poor role model for the movement.

    On that cheerful thought, good night and see you in 2016. Happy New Year everyone.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    Thanks to MyBurningEars for comments re York Railway Museum vs Scarborough in last night's thread!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    ydoethur said:

    Tony Martin's problems were (1) he shot them with an unregistered gun he had purchased illegally after his licence had been removed because he had threatened to use his gun to kill any intruders (2) he did not shout a warning (3) they were running away at the time and clearly no threat to him (4) he was trying to either wound or kill them. The jury thought it was the second and found him guilty of murder. The appeal court thought it was the first and found him guilty of manslaughter.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of have a go heroes, he is a very poor role model for the movement.

    On that cheerful thought, good night and see you in 2016. Happy New Year everyone.

    One of the best outlines of the case I've ever read. Thanks! HYN!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    JohnLoony said:

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    Does that mean I'm allowed to murder them then?
    Can I murder them if I think they are a burglar, but they're actually not?
    Can I pretend that I think they're a burglar, even though I know they're not, and then murder them anyway?
    Can I lure my intended victim to my house on a pretext, then murder him, then pretend I thought he was a burglar?
    Is it OK if it's a stray child who has wandered into the house by accident? Is the death of an innocent child a price worth paying for my otherwise unconstrained blood-lust in being allowed to murder people?
    It does in Texas.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    BNO News
    BREAKING: German police warn of imminent terror attack in Munich https://t.co/IS30tfH61N https://t.co/Og78vS2IOr
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,234
    edited 2015 31
    surbiton said:

    It is only in a feudal dictatorship can a fireworks "celebration" take place while a real big fire was burning. Imagine New Year's festivities at Trafalgar Square while the Hilton is ablaze !

    I imagine the fire will be out by then. The risk of collapse is more worrying.

    Edit - Just forgot I changed time zones, and so it is almost New Years there anyway!!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    THE TIMES: Carry on Cameron! Voters demand four more years #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers https://t.co/1A9g5k639M
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,234

    THE TIMES: Carry on Cameron! Voters demand four more years #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers https://t.co/1A9g5k639M

    Well, if he stays until right up until 2020 there will be four more years. 2025 is nine more years ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Wanderer said:

    Tory Jim
    2016 marks 950 years since the last invasion of England of any note and 50 years since England were any good at football. #landmarks

    Better that than the other way round.

    We do gloss over 1688 though.
    Was invited.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    AndyJS said:

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    There's a strong argument for that point of view IMO.
    Volente non fit injuria.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ignore election results

    Venezuela Supreme Court blocks opposition's parliamentary super-majority in 'judicial coup': Judges granted go... https://t.co/KuqG4hyje2
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624

    BNO News
    BREAKING: German police warn of imminent terror attack in Munich https://t.co/IS30tfH61N https://t.co/Og78vS2IOr

    Shit that isn't good news. Hopefully it is the Germans just being overly cautious, as they were in the week following Paris, where they cancelled some events and there was no harm to the public.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    JohnLoony said:

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    Does that mean I'm allowed to murder them then?
    Can I murder them if I think they are a burglar, but they're actually not?
    Can I pretend that I think they're a burglar, even though I know they're not, and then murder them anyway?
    Can I lure my intended victim to my house on a pretext, then murder him, then pretend I thought he was a burglar?
    Is it OK if it's a stray child who has wandered into the house by accident? Is the death of an innocent child a price worth paying for my otherwise unconstrained blood-lust in being allowed to murder people?
    It does in Texas.
    There was a case some years back = don't remember which state - where a Korean high school kid went to pick up his date for the prom and went to the wrong house. He spoke poor heavily accented english and the homeowner couldn't understand what he was saying, felt threatened, and shot and killed him through the front door.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,883
    JohnLoony said:

    Burglars forfeit any rights the moment they enter the premises.

    Does that mean I'm allowed to murder them then?
    Can I murder them if I think they are a burglar, but they're actually not?
    Can I pretend that I think they're a burglar, even though I know they're not, and then murder them anyway?
    Can I lure my intended victim to my house on a pretext, then murder him, then pretend I thought he was a burglar?
    Is it OK if it's a stray child who has wandered into the house by accident? Is the death of an innocent child a price worth paying for my otherwise unconstrained blood-lust in being allowed to murder people?
    Fred Barras got what was coming to him. Are we supposed to think he was a nice kind burglar, who was just popping in to polish the silverware?
This discussion has been closed.